...looks very impressive, I must say.  With that in mind, I can't think of any press about them, either positive or negative.  Their SVR rifles have been getting rave reviews lately, and the fit, finish, and overall appearance of these firearms is decidedly impressive, if the photographs are to be believed.

Anyways, I'm wondering if anybody has any firsthand experience with the Thunder Ranch AR.  It looks like a really nice setup, even if the pricetag is higher than average.  For custom fitting and assembly with top-tier parts and guaranteed 1/2" MOA accuracy, though, I think that that pricetag may be quite justifiable, when it's all said and done.

Specific questions:

-Does the rifle use a midlength gas system?  It looks like it does, but I'm just eyeballing the pictures and can't be too certain.

-Does the standard 1/8 rifling work well with the increasingly popular 75- and 77-grain self defense ammo loadings that are in vogue these days?

-How do the sights stand up to standard rack-grade AR sights?  Is the front sight substantially larger than a normal unit?

I think that about does it for specific questions.


Anywho, anybody with hands-on experience with one of these bad boys and feels like answering my questions will be most appreciated, so thanks in advance.

Tagged.  It's always fun to watch the meltdown.

Quoted: ...looks very impressive, I must say.  With that in mind, I can't think of any press about them, either positive or negative.  Their SVR rifles have been getting rave reviews lately, and the fit, finish, and overall appearance of these firearms is decidedly impressive, if the photographs are to be believed. Anyways, I'm wondering if anybody has any firsthand experience with the Thunder Ranch AR.  It looks like a really nice setup, even if the pricetag is higher than average.  For custom fitting and assembly with top-tier parts and guaranteed 1/2" MOA accuracy, though, I think that that pricetag may be quite justifiable, when it's all said and done. Specific questions: -Does the rifle use a midlength gas system?  It looks like it does, but I'm just eyeballing the pictures and can't be too certain. -Does the standard 1/8 rifling work well with the increasingly popular 75- and 77-grain self defense ammo loadings that are in vogue these days? -How do the sights stand up to standard rack-grade AR sights?  Is the front sight substantially larger than a normal unit? I think that about does it for specific questions. Anywho, anybody with hands-on experience with one of these bad boys and feels like answering my questions will be most appreciated, so thanks in advance.

There was a guy buying one at the same time I was getting my entry tactical. He let me handle it, and I can say that is quite impressive. Didnt get to shoot it though. I wish

Quoted: Tagged.  It's always fun to watch the meltdown.

Same.  These are usually good.... (getting popcorn)

Just to actually contribute, I don't see any justification for the price at all,
and I have no need of a 1/2 MOA combat weapon.

I will start it off.

First I don't know what you saw that was so "impressive."  You get a bunch of fluff but no real features.  

Les Baer = Wilson = overpriced shit.

Quoted: Shop around. www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_peep.gif

Well, that will be somewhat tricky for several reasons, which I shall now enumerate for both my own edification and clarification of my situation at present.

-I am presently visiting my folks down in California, and AR15 rifles are virtually impossible to find anywhere in this strange land.  I will be staying with them for a considerable amount of time, as well.

-The only ARs for sale in California are for law enforcement, and while I'm a public safety officer, I'm not a sworn LEO, and thereby not legally able to purchase such a rifle.  As a result, my odds of finding a vendor that would be willing to show me such a rifle for close, personal inspection are quite severely limited.

-In addition, my folks live in a relatively small town in which there is only one small FFL that carries nothing more exotic than Glock pistols, Remington long arms, and the occasional Smith & Wesson revolver.  To visit a genuine gun shop with an actually extensive collection requires an hour-long trip into the central valley.

-Furthermore, we have already established that 1) it's hard to find ARs in California, 2) finding one at a gun shop is even less likely, 3) finding a gun shop that both stocks and sells ARs that would also be willing (or legally able to) show them to a non-LEO would be virtually impossible, and 4) that I don't know of any such places in this vicinity, I would state using deductive logic that it would be impractical, possibly illegal, and unrealistic to simply 'shop around' and have my questions and concerns adequately addressed.

-On top of all that, at least one of the questions that I specifically have in mind pertains to the performance of the rifle in question with certain types of ammunition--information which one cannot realistically get by simply handling a firearm in a static, non-firing environment.

So, in short, I would need to find a gun shop in California--somewhere--that would 1) stock ARs, 2) specifically stock fairly difficult to come by Les Baer Custom ARs, 3) let non-LEOs handle them, 4) also allow said non-LEOs (or customers writ large, for that matter) fire their merchandaise prior to purchasing it, and 5) somehow not be a state-level felony to allow any or all of the above.  Suffice it to say that your scenario is somewhat unlikely and implausible, BigBore.


I don't mean to sound like a jackass or anything, but I didn't see anything particularly insulting or troll-esque about my initial post.  I thought it was fairly straightforward and reasonable, and I simply don't see why such immediate synicism and snippiness was warranted by my questioning.  I appreciate that firsthand experience will always be the ultimate judge for whether or not a firearm fits the bill that you have, and I have been known to give said advice to people myself whenever applicable, but I would like to think that I remained pleasant, civil, and tactful in so doing.

I'm not going to make this into any sort of issue or anything, and I admit that perhaps I ought to have explained my situation ahead of time so as to avoid any possible knee-jerk sarcasm rebuttals, but even so; why should I automatically expect responses to--in my opinion, anyway--reasonably simple and straightforward questions to be met with snide one-liners dripping with vitriol?


So, I don't have any specific quarrel with you, BigBore, I'm just trying to express that perhaps automatic sarcasm or frustration may not have been the most appropriate of responses and that I didn't necessarily appreciate or think I deserved as much.

With all that said, I trust you were entertained, Mongo?


And thank you for your response, Variablebinary.  The bolt carrier has some unusual fluting on the starboard side--did you get a chance to look at it in any detail, or was your examination more cursory than that?

None of the sarcasm was aimed at you.  

It was aimed at the people that will be along to argue eternally back and forth.

You have asked one of the religious questions, and they always seem to descend into the pit.....

Do some internet research.  You do have access to that, don't you?

You pay alot for Les Baer equipment that you can pay alot less for from other sources.  The Les Baer name gives you very little that others can give you also, in terms of form, fit, function and accuracy.

Quoted: I will start if off. First I don't know what you saw that was so "impressive."  You get a bunch of fluff but no real features.   Les Baer = Wilson = overpriced shit.

I can't speak for Variablebinary, but from the pictures I've seen, the fit and finish of the Les Baer weapons is absolutely flawless.  I cannot say the same for my Bushmaster.  Don't get me wrong, the Bushmaster does what I need it to, but it's rather like comparing a Camry to a high-end Chrystler.  Both will get you to work on time, but there can be no denying that one's a more comfortable ride than the other.


Also, the Les Baer appears to come with a very nice sighting system, a free-floated barrel, high-end internal parts, and a well-tuned trigger.  All of those sound like sound like useful features to me.  If you have firsthand experience to the contrary, feel free to correct me, by all means.  I'm just saying that for the price, it sounds like the Les Baer is a case of  'you get what you pay for'.

Quoted: Do some internet research.  You do have access to that, don't you? You pay alot for Les Baer equipment that you can pay alot less for from other sources.  The Les Baer name gives you very little that others can give you also, in terms of form, fit, function and accuracy.

Hmm.  Compared to my trusty Bushmaster, the Les Baer has a substantially better-looking finish that sounds as though it ought ot last longer (as it is Teflon-based), and the accuracy guarantee and tuned trigger are certainly steps up from a rack-grade weapon.  Are there vendors out there that make mass-production firearms with comparable featuers for less money?

With that all said, I rather thought I was engaging in internet-based research, seeing as how I was looking for information from people with firsthand experience with the weapon by using the internet.


Thanks for the input, though.

Quoted: Quoted: Do some internet research.  You do have access to that, don't you? You pay alot for Les Baer equipment that you can pay alot less for from other sources.  The Les Baer name gives you very little that others can give you also, in terms of form, fit, function and accuracy. Hmm.  Compared to my trusty Bushmaster, the Les Baer has a substantially better-looking finish that sounds as though it ought ot last longer (as it is Teflon-based), and the accuracy guarantee and tuned trigger are certainly steps up from a rack-grade weapon.  Are there vendors out there that make mass-production firearms with comparable featuers for less money? With that all said, I rather thought I was engaging in internet-based research, seeing as how I was looking for information from people with firsthand experience with the weapon by using the internet. Thanks for the input, though.

Well, it sounds like you have already made up your mind.  If you want a pretty rifle, then definitely get the Les Baer.  I've shot a Les Baer.  It was accurate and ran well, just like most every other similiarly equipped rifle - all of which had a smaller price tag than the Les Baer and maybe weren't as "pretty".

BTW, the teflon coating gives you very little more wear durability than the standard, milspec anodizing does.  It just provides for a smooth overcoat over the anodized surface.  That's why it looks so "pretty".

DPMS, uses the teflon coating and makes some real pretty rifles which will perform as well as a Baer, maybe with a little tweaking needed.  MEGA upper and lower receivers are teflon coated, as are AMEETEC.

Quoted: Well, it sounds like you have already made up your mind.  If you want a pretty rifle, then definitely get the Les Baer.  I've shot a Les Baer.  It was accurate and ran well, just like most every other similiarly equipped rifle - all of which had a smaller price tag than the Les Baer and maybe weren't as "pretty". BTW, the teflon coating gives you very little more wear durability than the standard, milspec anodizing does.  It just provides for a smooth overcoat over the anodized surface.  That's why it looks so "pretty". DPMS, uses the teflon coating and makes some real pretty rifles which will perform as well as a Baer, maybe with a little tweaking needed.  MEGA upper and lower receivers are teflon coated, as are AMEETEC.

Interesting.  I was under the impression that Teflon has greater lubricity than normal AR finishes--this is incorrect?

Could you point me in the direction of information about similarly-equipped rifles from the other manufacturers that you've mentioned?  The free-floated forend, folding tritium sights, tuned trigger, and all of that make for a very appealing combination (and as I have mentioned previously, the aesthetic side of things is indeed a factor as well, I'll admit), and if a competing brand has a comparable product for less money, I would like to look into it.  It's not like I'd be buying one of these bad boys any time soon or anything, but I do like to research big purchases thoroughly.

Thanks for your input and your patience.

Tag.

Quoted: Do some internet research.  You do have access to that, don't you?

Come on mongo............that is exactly what he's doing.

Presumably by asking the more knowledgeable people anywhere in the world on the subject - you being one of the better sources.

My take on Les Baer ARs.........

They are expensive, and what that extra money buys you is exacting tolerances in critical parts (bolts, carriers, etc), and enhanced components related to sighting.

Many argue the difference in LB products doesn't add up to the economic difference

I suppose thats because most of those critics are quite capable of building a tack driver for the same or less than the high-dollar LB products.

Personally, I would prefer to pick and choose my parts if I were building a precision shooting AR15-style firearm

Thanks for your input, Redfisher.  The Les Baer does indeed have a fairly impressive pricetag at MSRP, and even 'shopping around', as BigBore suggested doesn't seem to drop the price much below the $2.1k mark.  It is definitely a concern of mine.

That said, the factory-supplied night sights, free-floated barrel, and all of the aforementioned features are quite appealing in and of themselves.  And given that it comes from the factory that way, it eliminates the hurdle of worrying about having done the job myself correctly.  Not being a gunsmith and not knowing any gunsmiths, a do-it-yourself-kit is not something that I am considering.  Building my own firearms is not something that I have done in the past, and (perhaps unfortunately) not something that I forsee myself as being capable of doing in the future.  I have neither the tools or proper training to make such a venture successful.

In addition, the prevailing line of thought on so-called "franken-guns" among the professional training people online is that they are generally to be eschewed in favor for a factory-assembled firearm.  Instead of worrying if the factory, and Joe Schmuckatelli gunsmith, and I did the job correctly, one is reduced to simply worrying if the factory got it right, if that makes any sense.

That all said, if there are similarly-equipped factory rifles out there, as I've previously stated, I'd be glad to take a look at them.  More than glad, really.

Rock River Arms makes an excellent AR.  I have a number of them including an SPR mk12 mod 1 clone built by ADCO firearms and the fit and finish on all the rifles is excellent.  They have 2 stage match triggers and free floating handguards are available.  Check out their website, www.rockriverarms.com.

Quoted: Shop around. www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_peep.gif

+1

NEW! Les Baer Custom Thunder Ranch Rifle • Les Baer Custom Bench Rest 16” Barrel, 416 R Stainless Steel, Precision Cut Bench Rest Rifling, 1X8 Twist Give me chromoly with a chromelined bore & chamber any day for a self defense rifle • Jewell Two-Stage Trigger Tuned To 41/2 Pound Pull (total pull weight) Great trigger that has too many parts for a self defense gun • (2) 10-Round Magazines WooT!   Great for bench rest shooting • Bear Coat™ All-Weather Finish On Upper, Lower, My DPMS has this, BFD National Match With 1/4 Minute Of Elevation And 1/4 Minute Of Windage Wow.  Now I can shoot benchrest.    Not worth much on a self defense gun.  I dumped my DPMS upper because of this • Front Sight Includes A Bright Tritium Insert From Trijicon For Highest Visibility In Low Light Conditions Good, but not "revolutionary".   Forest put one in his Bushmaster, NBD

Shop the EE.  You can have one of the dealers here spec out a better rig for cheaper...or build one yourself.

Quoted: Thanks for your input, Redfisher.  The Les Baer does indeed have a fairly impressive pricetag at MSRP, and even 'shopping around', as BigBore suggested doesn't seem to drop the price much below the $2.1k mark.  It is definitely a concern of mine. That said, the factory-supplied night sights, free-floated barrel, and all of the aforementioned features are quite appealing in and of themselves.  And given that it comes from the factory that way, it eliminates the hurdle of worrying about having done the job myself correctly.  Not being a gunsmith and not knowing any gunsmiths, a do-it-yourself-kit is not something that I am considering.  Building my own firearms is not something that I have done in the past, and (perhaps unfortunately) not something that I forsee myself as being capable of doing in the future.  I have neither the tools or proper training to make such a venture successful. In addition, the prevailing line of thought on so-called "franken-guns" among the professional training people online is that they are generally to be eschewed in favor for a factory-assembled firearm.  Instead of worrying if the factory, and Joe Schmuckatelli gunsmith, and I did the job correctly, one is reduced to simply worrying if the factory got it right, if that makes any sense. That all said, if there are similarly-equipped factory rifles out there, as I've previously stated, I'd be glad to take a look at them.  More than glad, really.

Time for you to be unbrainwashed...

First, teflon is put on the receivers to make them look pretty.  It does nothing for the wear resistance of the finish.  Type III anodizing is significanly harder than any teflon finish, so if you scratch or ding the anodizing, the teflon layer won't mean shit.

Second, there is no "gunsmithing" involved in assembling an AR-15.

Thrid, Les Baer doesn't offer any features on it which Bushy or Colt do.  There is no MP tested part, no forged buffer tube, etc.

You are basically buying a "pretty" looking Oylimpic

Quoted: Their SVR rifles have been getting rave reviews lately, and the fit, finish, and overall appearance of these firearms is decidedly impressive, if the photographs are to be believed.

Rave reveiws by who, some gun writer in a gun rag that doesn't know shit?

When was the last time anyone saw a serious AR-15 article in a gun rag that actually talked about quality accessories and gear such as KAC, LaRue, ARMS, Troy, etc, with real AR-15, Bushy, Colt, RRA, etc.

Everygun rag is the same.  Les Baer and Wilson, blah, blah, blah....

Quoted: Thanks for your input, Redfisher.  The Les Baer does indeed have a fairly impressive pricetag at MSRP, and even 'shopping around', as BigBore suggested doesn't seem to drop the price much below the $2.1k mark.  It is definitely a concern of mine. That said, the factory-supplied night sights, free-floated barrel, and all of the aforementioned features are quite appealing in and of themselves.  And given that it comes from the factory that way, it eliminates the hurdle of worrying about having done the job myself correctly.  Not being a gunsmith and not knowing any gunsmiths, a do-it-yourself-kit is not something that I am considering.  Building my own firearms is not something that I have done in the past, and (perhaps unfortunately) not something that I forsee myself as being capable of doing in the future.  I have neither the tools or proper training to make such a venture successful. In addition, the prevailing line of thought on so-called "franken-guns" among the professional training people online is that they are generally to be eschewed in favor for a factory-assembled firearm.  Instead of worrying if the factory, and Joe Schmuckatelli gunsmith, and I did the job correctly, one is reduced to simply worrying if the factory got it right, if that makes any sense. That all said, if there are similarly-equipped factory rifles out there, as I've previously stated, I'd be glad to take a look at them.  More than glad, really.

If you are not a gunsmith or have any skill in that area, then the Les Baer is perfect for you.  You won't be able to assemble your own, so that option is out.  

FYI, I could build a very similiar rifle using premium parts for a whole lot less than the $2.1K you mentioned.  And I'd have about 25 quality mags and 2k rounds to learn how to shoot the darn thing with.

There is no magic to building an accurate AR.  It is simply choosing premium parts and putting them together properly.  It is that easy.

As far as reliable frankenguns go, they get a bad rap because people try to skimp and save to get a complete rifle.  They mix and match parts with questionable or unknown pedigree and expect them to run like a top.  On top of that, other than knowing righty-tighty, they know very little about the actual operation of the gun.  And - surprise, surprise - they end up with a rifle that just doesn't work right.  Use quality parts and the outcome is very different.  Know more than how to put a loaded mag into the rifle and your odds of getting an operating rifle go up, also.

Additionally, if you think the factory monkeys get it right every time, even though it is their job to do so, you are sorely mistaken.



Bottom line, you have already made up your mind and, honestly, from what I have gathered about you in these few, short paragraphs, the Les Baer is a good fit for you.

Quoted: Time for you to be unbrainwashed... First, teflon is put on the receivers to make them look pretty.  It does nothing for the wear resistance of the finish.  Type III anodizing is significanly harder than any teflon finish, so if you scratch or ding the anodizing, the teflon layer won't mean shit. Second, there is no "gunsmithing" involved in assembling an AR-15. Thrid, Les Baer doesn't offer any features on it which Bushy or Colt do.  There is no MP tested part, no forged buffer tube, etc. You are basically buying a "pretty" looking Oylimpic

I'd agree with this 100%

Quoted: Quoted: Shop around. www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_peep.gif +1

I take it you weren't really reading this thread particularly closely...  Suffice it to say:

Quoted: Well, that will be somewhat tricky for several reasons, which I shall now enumerate for both my own edification and clarification of my situation at present. -I am presently visiting my folks down in California, and AR15 rifles are virtually impossible to find anywhere in this strange land. I will be staying with them for a considerable amount of time, as well. -The only ARs for sale in California are for law enforcement, and while I'm a public safety officer, I'm not a sworn LEO, and thereby not legally able to purchase such a rifle. As a result, my odds of finding a vendor that would be willing to show me such a rifle for close, personal inspection are quite severely limited. -In addition, my folks live in a relatively small town in which there is only one small FFL that carries nothing more exotic than Glock pistols, Remington long arms, and the occasional Smith & Wesson revolver. To visit a genuine gun shop with an actually extensive collection requires an hour-long trip into the central valley. -Furthermore, we have already established that 1) it's hard to find ARs in California, 2) finding one at a gun shop is even less likely, 3) finding a gun shop that both stocks and sells ARs that would also be willing (or legally able to) show them to a non-LEO would be virtually impossible, and 4) that I don't know of any such places in this vicinity, I would state using deductive logic that it would be impractical, possibly illegal, and unrealistic to simply 'shop around' and have my questions and concerns adequately addressed. -On top of all that, at least one of the questions that I specifically have in mind pertains to the performance of the rifle in question with certain types of ammunition--information which one cannot realistically get by simply handling a firearm in a static, non-firing environment. So, in short, I would need to find a gun shop in California--somewhere--that would 1) stock ARs, 2) specifically stock fairly difficult to come by Les Baer Custom ARs, 3) let non-LEOs handle them, 4) also allow said non-LEOs (or customers writ large, for that matter) fire their merchandaise prior to purchasing it, and 5) somehow not be a state-level felony to allow any or all of the above. Suffice it to say that your scenario is somewhat unlikely and implausible...

As for the rest of your input, I have observed that stainless steel barrels are not as desirable as chrome-lined ones are, and I must ask why this is.  I assume that it is because the lack of chrome lining in the original M16 was said to have caused substantial reliability and cleaning issues.  Even though I don't know the exactitudes as to why the stainless steel barrel is less desirable, I do know that they are.  It is something I have been considering.

Moving on, I can understand the desire for mechanical simplicity, but I fail to see how the number of parts in the trigger is really a point for major concern.  The stainless steel barrel I understand, but I'm afraid I don't see how X number of parts in the trigger assembly is directly pertinent to the overall utility of the rifle.

The magazines are irrelevant to me, as I have half a dozen thirty round mags back home in addition to a pair of twenty-rounders.

The sights issue, though.  One I'm glad you brought up.  Could you elaborate further on why you were less than pleased with the rear sights?  All I gleaned from you post was that the zeroing adjustments were not to your liking, which can't be the entirety of your critique.  Were the actual sight apertures over- or under-sized?  Something else?  As for the front sight, the design is quite attractive to me, as it is both folding and quick-deployable in case you need it.  That and the tritium, which is a huge selling point for me.  As for 'Forrest', well, I'm glad for him, but the big selling point here is that this particular rifle appears to come from the factory with more or less everything I think I want on a rifle without the need to send it off to a third party in order to add Accessory X, if that makes any sense.

Aimless:

Thanks, your input is most appreciated.  That said, this is essentially hypothetical at this point--again, I'm not going to be rushing out to buy one of these things any time soon.  Also, it won't be my first AR.  I already have a fairly no-frills "postban" Bushmaster.

Also, your commentary on driving and how it relates to gunsmithing is quite good.  Pretty much exactly what I was getting at.  Yes, I can shoot (although not as well as many), but I've no idea how to put together a rifle properly.  I haven't been trained for that, and as such, it is not something that I feel I could do either confidently or perhaps even safely.


Chewbacca:

Thanks and all, but that doesn't really address my specific concerns.

"Hey, how's the chicken noodle soup?"

"Dude, there's a really great bakery down the street that can make a cake however you want!"

I just want to know if the chicken noodle is as tasty as it smells.


Scottryan:



Alright, so the process by which I would need to obtain, read, and understand detailed technical assembly manuals, very specific tools, and practice utilizing them in order to assemble an AR, along with minor fitting, filing, and the like "isn't gunsmithing".  Whatever you choose to define it as, I'm not trained to do it, and I have neither the time, inclination, facilities, funds, or desire to learn.  Whatever you choose to define this process as, it is not a skill that I can claim to have.

Finally, the magnetic particle inspection process is certainly made out to be absolutely vital to the acceptability of any rifle here at AR15.com, and perhaps rightly so.  But the trick is that I have absolutely no idea what this process does, why it is desirable, and why a rifle that does not have this process is unacceptable.  Now, as I understand it, it is essentially a process by which a manufacturer inspects assorted parts in order to decrease the probability of said part(s) being defective.  As for a forged reciever extension (or "buffer tube", if you prefer), why is this desirable?

The Teflon finish is mostly cosmetic, then?  Interesting.  Even so, there can be no denying that it is very fetching.  And as I have stated previously, there is undeniably an aesthetic appeal to it that I am factoring in here.

As far as 'Brand X has Featuer Y but Brand Z doesn't' roundabouts go, my Bushmaster does not have folding tritium night sights, it doesn't have the free floated forend, it has no forward rail mounts, it doesn't have a midlength operating system, and it doesn't have a particularly good trigger.  It's a very servicable firearm, but 'serviceable' isn't everything.  She's no sports car, and that's fine--I didn't think that she would be.

As I intimated in my initial post, I have recently read a series of overwhelmingly positive reviews of Les Baer products, and in doing some searching, found that this one appeared to feature a number of selling points that I believe would be desirable on the next rifle that I purchase (assuming that I choose to buy another AR).

Brett.

At every reply you have countered with why the Les Baer is better.  

So, you have made up your mind, you are not listening to other opinions that
you have solicited so please, go purchase the rifle.

There is no doubt it is a quality firearm and I'm sure it will serve you just fine.

But don't continue to counter any alternative that people present to you because it
doesn't line up with what you want to hear.

You are beginning to sound a bit ish at this point.

I've gotta run--I'll try to get to your response(s) (Mongo, et al) when I get back so I can respond in more appropriate detail.

Thanks for all of the input, though.


EDIT:

Texas:

Suffice it to say that sounding like a troll was not my intention at all, and that I don't believe that I have been attempting to make Brand X sound better than Brand Y--if I've inadvertantly come across that way, I apologize.

What I've been attempting to do is ask people with firsthand experience about three or four aspects of the rifle that I'd like some clarification on, and I've been receiving a number of responses that have been--while presumably good-intentioned and intelligent--not directly related to the question(s) that I have been asking.

I have been attempting to illustrate that and get direct information about the specific points I'm most concerned about, and again, if I've been coming across poorly as a result, I apologize profusely.  It has not been my intention at all to start a Brand X vs. Brand Y pissing contest, and have been trying rather diligently to avoid such a thing.

Looks like I haven't been trying hard enough.  Sorry.

Brett - when Bigbore is saying shop around - he isn't speaking of pricing Baers on the net.........

I am sure that someone that owns one will be along  to champion them soon enough...... maybe they will also post some practical match results wherein anyone in the top 20 was using one at the same time....

Brett - think I am an LB basher? Hardly - I own 4 of his pistols (and would buy more). There is no way on god's green earth I would buy one of his rifles.. BTW regardless of what Les himself will tell you  -(IMHO)  there is no way he makes ALL of his own parts for both his pistols and rifles. Les is a good enough guy and all - there is some definate marketing going on both in print and when you speak to him.

In the end it is a tool - not a piece of art.  If you start from the perspective that you are looking for the most effiecient hammer and not the best looking hammer you will likely end up with something different. And if that quest for efficiency is taken to a whole other level - it will likely be something that is not off the rack from a major manufacuter either.

Good luck

[grabs popcorn and slides into a comfy chair]

Quoted: BTW regardless of what Les himself will tell you  -(IMHO)  there is no way he makes ALL of his own parts for both his pistols and rifles.

His "national match" bolt carriers come from Young Mfg., as does his front flip sight.  All he is doing is assembling quality parts into a complete rifle.  He may take it a step further and chamber his own barrels and such, but there are numerous other companies that put out accurate barrels, so why limit yourself to his.

Quoted: Scottryan: Alright, so the process by which I would need to obtain, read, and understand detailed technical assembly manuals, very specific tools, and practice utilizing them in order to assemble an AR, along with minor fitting, filing, and the like "isn't gunsmithing".  Whatever you choose to define it as, I'm not trained to do it, and I have neither the time, inclination, facilities, funds, or desire to learn.  Whatever you choose to define this process as, it is not a skill that I can claim to have. Finally, the magnetic particle inspection process is certainly made out to be absolutely vital to the acceptability of any rifle here at AR15.com, and perhaps rightly so.  But the trick is that I have absolutely no idea what this process does, why it is desirable, and why a rifle that does not have this process is unacceptable.  Now, as I understand it, it is essentially a process by which a manufacturer inspects assorted parts in order to decrease the probability of said part(s) being defective.  As for a forged reciever extension (or "buffer tube", if you prefer), why is this desirable? The Teflon finish is mostly cosmetic, then?  Interesting.  Even so, there can be no denying that it is very fetching.  And as I have stated previously, there is undeniably an aesthetic appeal to it that I am factoring in here. As far as 'Brand X has Featuer Y but Brand Z doesn't' roundabouts go, my Bushmaster does not have folding tritium night sights, it doesn't have the free floated forend, it has no forward rail mounts, it doesn't have a midlength operating system, and it doesn't have a particularly good trigger.  It's a very servicable firearm, but 'serviceable' isn't everything.  She's no sports car, and that's fine--I didn't think that she would be. As I intimated in my initial post, I have recently read a series of overwhelmingly positive reviews of Les Baer products, and in doing some searching, found that this one appeared to feature a number of selling points that I believe would be desirable on the next rifle that I purchase (assuming that I choose to buy another AR).

Chrome lining is superior because the barrel lasts longers without any signifcant loss in accuracy.

Your Bushmaster is much more capabable than a Les Baer.  It has combat features that the Les Baer doesn't.  Take a Bushy, Colt, or Les Baer into combat.  At the end of the week, Les Baer won't be working.

The teflon finish doesn't mean anything.  Get over it.

Get out of California.

Quoted: -I am presently visiting my folks down in California, and AR15 rifles are virtually impossible to find anywhere in this strange land. I will be staying with them for a considerable amount of time, as well.

So road trip to Vegas.   Geeze.

Go to the range in CA - borrow some stuff that was registered in time.

I have observed that stainless steel barrels are not as desirable as chrome-lined ones are, and I must ask why this is.  I assume that it is because the lack of chrome lining in the original M16 was said to have caused substantial reliability and cleaning issues.  Even though I don't know the exactitudes as to why the stainless steel barrel is less desirable,

Chromeling enhances durability & function, and is very corrosion resistant.    Now stainless (properly called stain resistant) steel is fairly immune to corrosion, but not as good as chrome.  Chroming also adds lubricity and aids in extraction.    I had a .223 DPMS stainless steel barrel (2002 LEGP ARCOM rifle) and it was never as reliable as my Bushmasters.   In addition, that "match" chamber shot great, but didnt' always work well.

Moving on, I can understand the desire for mechanical simplicity, but I fail to see how the number of parts in the trigger is really a point for major concern.

I gave you a short fast answer.  The Jewell has springs and parts to adjust.  Simply more to go wrong, more to get lose.   For a self defense rifle, you just don't need that precise a trigger - better to trade for reliability, IMO.

Check out the adjustment screws that can loosen, and the bottom right spring that fits into a selected groove in the multi-notch piece, that can pop off:

The magazines are irrelevant to me, as I have half a dozen thirty round mags back home in addition to a pair of twenty-rounders.

Just having fun - 10 rounders suck anyway.

The sights issue, though.  One I'm glad you brought up.  Could you elaborate further on why you were less than pleased with the rear sights?

Take a good Tactical Carbine course in Arizona, maybe, before  you buy anything.  You will find that speed is more important than ulitimate accuracy.   If we shot too good of groups, they made us SPEED UP.   You are taking too long, and 2 bullets in the same hole doesn't do much better than 1 bullet in that hole.  

The tight MOA adjustments aren't necessary for this kind of weapon/shooting, and the apetures were too small for real use.   Great for benchrest, but I have other weapons for that.

As for the front sight, the design is quite attractive to me, as it is both folding

I've got a similar Yankee Hill front folder - they have their uses.  

That and the tritium, which is a huge selling point for me.  , but the big selling point here is that this particular rifle appears to come from the factory with more or less everything I think I want on a rifle without the need to send it off to a third party in order to add Accessory X, if that makes any sense.

I thought this way when I bought my 1st gun too - get it factory, get it right.   Well, AR's aren't that way.   If you can't replace a front sight, you need to get up to speed.   The AR is a simple platform to work with, virtually no "gun smithing" required.  

I think anyone relying on these weapons for self defense should be equipped and able to diagnose, repair and modify virtually anything on the gun.    My RRA (2001 LEGP) quit working after about 90 rounds - I diagnosed and replaced the extractor.  NBD, but a critical skill to have.    It's up to you to know the weapon and keep it running, and with the AR, it's not that hard to do.

Finally, the magnetic particle inspection process is certainly made out to be absolutely vital to the acceptability of any rifle here at AR15.com, and perhaps rightly so.  But the trick is that I have absolutely no idea what this process does, why it is desirable, and why a rifle that does not have this process is unacceptable.

 

MP inspection is a process that looks for flawed parts.   Highly desireable, but I haven't found it critical if you are buying quality parts (Bushmaster, RRA, Colt, Armalite....)

Bushmaster does not have folding tritium night sights, it doesn't have the free floated forend, it has no forward rail mounts, it doesn't have a midlength operating system, and it doesn't have a particularly good trigger.

Pretty easy to add all of that.

overwhelmingly positive reviews of Les Baer products, and in doing some searching, found that this one appeared to feature a number of selling points that I believe would be desirable on the next rifle that I purchase (assuming that I choose to buy another AR).

Les Baer makes some great stuff.   And you PAY for it.   That's okay, I don't mind, I value quality.

However, in this case, I don't think ole Les had properly configured this as a self defense rifle.

Well, I think the reason is that no one on here has fallen for the Les Baer marketing.  This
weapon is being marketed as the "ultimate" defensive rifle for both personal and LEO
use.  It doesn't even have a flash hider!!!!  It has tritium sight inserts for low light
shooting and no flash hider?   That alone tells me this is all marketing.  

It is not particularly well set up for optics.  At TR, optics are recommended.
So, why is this rifle not built with some kind of BUIS?  It has the carry handle
sight, and it says in the description that if this sight is removed and replaced
that it will shoot to within 1/2" of ITS ORIGINAL POINT OF AIM.  That means your
1/2 MOA rifle is now a 1 MOA rifle if you take the handle off and put it back on.
Again.  What is that about??????  Why not equip this rifle with a folding BUIS
for optics. Optics which by the way Thunder Ranch recommends for their classes.

This board is generally a pretty experienced group.  If you talk to a group this large, filled with experience, and not one person
chimes in and says "Yes, I have the Thunder Ranch AR and here are my experiences, x,x,x." then
that alone should be a telling sign.

No one here that understands the AR and the gun business would buy a Les Baer AR, or a Wilson.

It is pretty, but very very few folks here use that as their number 1 priority.  Financially, it is priced a great deal above the sum of it's parts. Even if you were to go out yourself and gather top quality parts in the same configuration, you would end up several hundred dollars cheaper than LB or Wilson.  Why?

Do they know so much more about the AR that their experience in aseembly is justified?  Doubtful.

These are makers that made a name for themselves in the 1911 world, and they do make very good
1911's.  I have a Les Baer IPSC gun myself, they are top notch. But, the 1911 is not an easy gun
to put together and make reliable, the AR is, using quality parts.

Neither Wilson nor Les Baer would be famous names if all they built were AR's.    

Have you taken a class at Thunder Ranch?  I did.  In a way, this rifle almost goes entirely
against what is taught there, that the gun is a tool and no better than the man holding it.
A reliable, tough weapon is what survives a class there, as well as the real world..  The Les Baer may very well be tough,
but that "pretty" will wear off if the rifle is used.  I guarantee that if you took a brand new LB AR
to the carbine course at Thunder Ranch, it would come back beaten and scratched.  ALL AR's
used like that get beaten and scratched.

So I understand what you are asking for, others that like and have probably bought the
Les Baer AR, but I don't expect any of them are around here. No one I know could justify
the price for "pretty" that will not last further than the next time the gun is actually used.

But, you have your heart set on it, and to you the price is justified by the appearance.  There
is nothing wrong with that.  If that fits what you are looking for in an AR then you truly
should buy one.  I am absolutely certain it is a fine reliable weapon.

Quoted: .. but I fail to see how the number of parts in the trigger is really a point for major concern. ... but I'm afraid I don't see how X number of parts in the trigger assembly is directly pertinent to the overall utility of the rifle.

More parts = greater the number of places it can fail.  Talk to the trainers they will tell you rifles with complex trigger systems are more likely to fail.  They see it happen in their classes all the time.

.. but the big selling point here is that this particular rifle appears to come from the factory with more or less everything I think I want on a rifle without

Ok two points here.  One is these are things you THINK you need.  Why do you THINK you need them?  What is your expected use for the rifle and what information are you drawing on that you think you need those features?

Make sure the tool is set up correctly for the job.  What do you intend on using the rifle for?

Oh and BTW Bushmaster will build the rifle - at the factory with whatever do-dads they sell that you want - FF rails, tritium sights, alternate stocks, folding front sights etc.

the need to send it off to a third party in order to add Accessory X, if that makes any sense.

While I agree with F4YR that you should be able to wrench your own rifle.  Installing a Tritium front sight is really no different from adjusting the front sight (which you'll need to do to zero the rifle).  Installation is just a few extra turns of the sight tool (which comes with the tritum sights).

OK, so the kid wants a Les Baer.  Go get one.  WTF cares?  It is your money.

I have built CAR-15's that will keep up with any Les Baer for a fraction of the price.  I have one that I spent about $300 on and it gets 3/8 MOA, if a good shooter uses it.

Why don't you take a second and LISTEN to what everyone is trying to tell you?  THERE IS NOTHING MAJIC ABOUT THE NAME.  

Buy a registered lower, slap on the upper with the features you want, and quit whining.

This is same thing that happens with stereo's. To get the latest and greatest the price is very high. Now you can get 2/3 of stuff for about 1/2 price it does all you want.

Now most of us tinker with our guns, in fact some may tinker more than shoot if the truth be known.

I can understand getting a Les or Fulton gun if you know exactly what you want. The thing is that what you want changes with time.

If you have to take your gun to smith to have him do all your work, you'll end up spending as much as the Les.

Same thing happens with IPSC pistols. Buy time I finished buy all the parts and if I kept track of hours put into it and put a reasonable value on my time it is cheaper to buy a custom gun. But I like doing myself.

I'm not into pretty guns any more, my only criteria is they never jam and don't break. They do however wear out.

The Les Baer Thunder Ranch is a contradiction in itself anyway.  

It comes with match sights  match trigger (ie: target rifle) yet it has a forend for mounting attachments and night sights like you are suppose to take in into combat.

Quoted: The Les Baer Thunder Ranch is a contradiction in itself anyway.   It comes with match sights  match trigger (ie: target rifle) yet it has a forend for mounting attachments and night sights like you are suppose to take in into combat.

It's got about 200 of those contradictions.... it's an answer looking for a question....

+1 Good 1911, pass on the AR

Really can't blame Baer for trying to leverage his reputation with 1911's to ARs; it's about money. Although I got to say that its pretty ballsy marketing an AR with a Jewell trigger as a bombproof LEO combat rifle - I have a jewell on my bench gun, but I'd hate to see that 2nd stage set screw back off under heavy use on a duty rifle.

Let this guy buy the Baer, he's obviously an indescriminant buyer in love; I have little patience for people who ask questions, cover their ears, and then tell you why they're right.

so everyone can see what he wants, www.lesbaer.com/ar223.html

You have to scroll down to see it.  I don't see a whole lot for you money there.  Plenty of dealers here can make you an upper configured any way you want.

Also, what do you want it for?  To hang on a wall or be a safe queen?  Shot it once in awhile?  If that's the case and you have the money, go for it.  But if you want to seriously shoot it get a Bushmaster or Colt and be prepared for it to show some wear.

I always thought I wanted a Wilson rifle, but I spoke with some people and I decided that the price wasn't worth it for what I wanted to do with it.

For some people the name on the side of the gun is worth the additional expense.

Brett I'm not doggin you but forget the "I'm not trained for that(building)" stuff.you don't need to be an expert  right off, do and learn. ask questions. TRY it. I am no expert by any means and have a LOW post count and that gets you dogged here when giving advise. but I try and give it my best shot and regardless of what ever.I am not LEO never been in the military and don't compete, couch commando!thats me!I will never buy a 2k$ setup because I get more out of doing it myself and it is a more valuable thing to me when I am done. it is the craftsmanship , how well I can out do myself each time I build one and each one is a new learning experience.you being in Kalifornia are probably gonna need to make your own I think the only way you will have one there is if you file to bring one with you.I live in indiana so I don't know for sure.If I were set on Les B I would buy the parts and build it You would respect it more in the morning

The burned hand teaches best...

Quoted: The burned hand teaches best...

Best thing I've read in this thread.  Where do you think I learned all this stuff

Okay, I have returned.  Before I delve into the meat of the responses, let me just say a big 'thanks' to everybody that took the time to respond.  I realize that perhaps I'm not communicating my perspective as clearly as I maybe need to, and for that I apologize.  So, for all those of you who have slogged through my long-winded typographical meanderings and actually understood what I was getting at and bothered to post sage advice, I tip my hat.

Anyway...

Mongo:

If you are not a gunsmith or have any skill in that area, then the Les Baer is perfect for you. You won't be able to assemble your own, so that option is out. FYI, I could build a very similiar rifle using premium parts for a whole lot less than the $2.1K you mentioned. And I'd have about 25 quality mags and 2k rounds to learn how to shoot the darn thing with. There is no magic to building an accurate AR. It is simply choosing premium parts and putting them together properly. It is that easy. As far as reliable frankenguns go, they get a bad rap because people try to skimp and save to get a complete rifle. They mix and match parts with questionable or unknown pedigree and expect them to run like a top. On top of that, other than knowing righty-tighty, they know very little about the actual operation of the gun. And - surprise, surprise - they end up with a rifle that just doesn't work right. Use quality parts and the outcome is very different. Know more than how to put a loaded mag into the rifle and your odds of getting an operating rifle go up, also.

Thanks.  My big concern is that since I've no tools for assembling anything more complex than a buttstock (and by 'assembling', I mean 'screwing into the back of the receiver'), I wouldn't be able to properly put together something correctly.  All of the people in the professional firearms training ciruit that I've seen online have warned against non-factory rifles, and the simple fact of the matter was that the Les Baer took most of the features that it would be nice to have as custom additions and made them into one standard package.  That's a big part of the draw, you see.

Now, having something like this put together by someone else would be a much safer way to go, but I don't know of anybody that I would trust to do such a thing, as I've intimated previously.  I suppose more research into such an area would be necessary.  But like I said, this isn't an investment that I'm going to be making any time even remotely soon (a fact that several users conveniently neglected to register).  I've all the time in the world.

Thanks for the sage pointers and whatnot--it's all been most appreciated.

Additionally, if you think the factory monkeys get it right every time, even though it is their job to do so, you are sorely mistaken. Bottom line, you have already made up your mind and, honestly, from what I have gathered about you in these few, short paragraphs, the Les Baer is a good fit for you.

On this note, I will have to respectfully disagree.  I don't think that everything comes from the factory 100% squared away.  It usually does, but there's still the chance--regardless of make or model--that something has not been done properly.  This is true if you're buying a Wilson Combat, and Olympic Arms, or a Colt or Bushmaster.  Shit happens, and I'm fine with that.  Just because there's a given name on the side of the receiver doesn't mean that the product is immune to the antics of the factory monkeys (great terminology, by the way).


Anyway, I also definitively don't have my mind made up, which is something that I apparently have been quite delinquent in fully expressing here.  I suppose at this juncture it's something of a foregone conclusion that I'm actually going to have my specific questions answered, but that is neither here nor there.  I was asking the questions not to troll or pedantically try and establish the superiority of Brad X over All Other Mongrel Brands™, but to get a clearer picture in my mind as to what the rifle in question was like.  Apparently, this was something that most people simply didn't assume.  My bad, I suppose.  I should have been clearer, in retrospect.

Scottryan:

Chrome lining is superior because the barrel lasts longers without any signifcant loss in accuracy. Your Bushmaster is much more capabable than a Les Baer. It has combat features that the Les Baer doesn't. Take a Bushy, Colt, or Les Baer into combat. At the end of the week, Les Baer won't be working. The teflon finish doesn't mean anything. Get over it. Get out of California.

Well, terseness aside, thanks for the clarification.  I, sadly, won't be back up in Idaho for some time, though.  For the immediate future, California it will be.


Fight4yourrights:

So road trip to Vegas. Geeze.

If only it were that simple.

Chromeling enhances durability & function, and is very corrosion resistant. Now stainless (properly called stain resistant) steel is fairly immune to corrosion, but not as good as chrome. Chroming also adds lubricity and aids in extraction. I had a .223 DPMS stainless steel barrel (2002 LEGP ARCOM rifle) and it was never as reliable as my Bushmasters. In addition, that "match" chamber shot great, but didnt' always work well.

Thanks!  I had been somewhat wary of the barrel because of the stainless steel, but I didn't really know the science as to why I ought to be.  The chamber is something that I ought to have picked up on by my self, too.  I've actually read articles by Clint Smith paradoxically of Thunder Ranch in which "match" chambers were specifically and repeatedly enumerated as undesirable.

*smacks forehead*

I gave you a short fast answer. The Jewell has springs and parts to adjust. Simply more to go wrong, more to get lose. For a self defense rifle, you just don't need that precise a trigger - better to trade for reliability, IMO. Check out the adjustment screws that can loosen, and the bottom right spring that fits into a selected groove in the multi-notch piece, that can pop off:

Ah, thanks.  That giant wheel-looking contraption is somewhat disturbing-looking, now that you mention it.  Is it possible to get triggers that are roughly comparable in performance without all of the additional mechanical complexity?  Being two-stage isn't necessary--just smooth and set for about four and a half pounds of pull.

Just having fun - 10 rounders suck anyway.

Take a good Tactical Carbine course in Arizona, maybe, before you buy anything. You will find that speed is more important than ulitimate accuracy. If we shot too good of groups, they made us SPEED UP. You are taking too long, and 2 bullets in the same hole doesn't do much better than 1 bullet in that hole. The tight MOA adjustments aren't necessary for this kind of weapon/shooting, and the apetures were too small for real use. Great for benchrest, but I have other weapons for that.

That is exactly what I was looking for.  Too-small rear apetures are something I definitively want to avoid.  I'm not entirely pleased with the way conventional sights (with the standard small apeture) work on the carbine-length system in the first place.  Making that issue more pronounced would be decidedly unpleasant.  Thanks!

I thought this way when I bought my 1st gun too - get it factory, get it right. Well, AR's aren't that way. If you can't replace a front sight, you need to get up to speed. The AR is a simple platform to work with, virtually no "gun smithing" required. I think anyone relying on these weapons for self defense should be equipped and able to diagnose, repair and modify virtually anything on the gun. My RRA (2001 LEGP) quit working after about 90 rounds - I diagnosed and replaced the extractor. NBD, but a critical skill to have. It's up to you to know the weapon and keep it running, and with the AR, it's not that hard to do.

The process by which I can strip the weapon and make minor additions (like a telestock) is one thing, the ability to correctly and safely build the rifle from nothing but a pile of parts is something else altogether, my friend.  Vices, clamps, specialized wrenches--these are things that I do not have and do not have experience with.  Pulling off a front sight tower is a proceedure that I believe is best left to people that can afford to train at it long enough to be proficient.  If I screw up my singular Bushmaster, I'm up the proverbial creek, you see.  And the odds of my screwing up are pretty good, I'd say, considering that I've never done such a thing before, am unfamiliar with the proceedure, and have zero experience with the requisite equipment needed to do such a thing.

I'm rapidly becoming convinced that it would behoove me to have an upper receiver assembled professionally by a genuine expert, but I'm not about to take the plunge and go into that realm myself.  Just because I'm willing to go swimming doesn't mean I want to install the pool, if you get my drift.  I don't own an auto-body shop for my truck, you see...

However, in this case, I don't think ole Les had properly configured this as a self defense rifle.

I see (and see the echoing responses of a similar note that follow yours).  Thanks for your input, it has been appreciated.

TexasSIG:

This board is generally a pretty experienced group. If you talk to a group this large, filled with experience, and not one person chimes in and says "Yes, I have the Thunder Ranch AR and here are my experiences, x,x,x." then that alone should be a telling sign.

Point taken.  I'm seeing that vibe pretty clearly now--especially since Mongo and Variablebinary have sounded off without much in the way of first-hand experience.  They seem to be extremely knowledgable individuals, and that they don't have answers to the questions I asked does say something.

Perhaps the soup is good, but the cake really is the way to go.

No one here that understands the AR and the gun business would buy a Les Baer AR, or a Wilson.

You're probably generalizing yourself into dangerous territory, but I see the point you're illustrating.

Have you taken a class at Thunder Ranch? I did. In a way, this rifle almost goes entirely against what is taught there...

Interesting.  Do you suppose that Clint Smith receives a gratuity for posing with the thing?  Neither here nor there, I know, I know...

So I understand what you are asking for, others that like and have probably bought the Les Baer AR, but I don't expect any of them are around here. No one I know could justify the price for "pretty" that will not last further than the next time the gun is actually used.

I think you're grossly overstating the importance that I have placed on aesthetics, but I do believe that's mostly my fault for not clearly stating my position(s) on the matter.  Yes, the aesthetic value was on the radar, so to speak, for me.  But it was not the 'prettiness' or the name on the receiver that brought the Thunder Ranch rifle to my attention.  It was the fact that it appeared to have most of the features that I believe would be good to have on a rifle of that type--and no, I had not envisioned it as my primary 'self defense rifle'.  That role would be left to my 'beater' Bushmaster, because I know that it works, even if she's a bit rough around the edges (and still doesn't have a light mouted yet...).


It appeared to be an accurate, optics-friendly rifle for more 'casual' bench or plinking use that wouldn't weigh five million metric tons but still have very servicable iron sights (I'm a big fan of iron sights--even on things with optics).  Upon reading the various posts in here, I am rapidly becoming convinced that other options would be more realistic and less expensive.

Forest:

More parts = greater the number of places it can fail. Talk to the trainers they will tell you rifles with complex trigger systems are more likely to fail. They see it happen in their classes all the time.

Good to go.  I was unaware that the trigger assembly was a common problem area.  You learn something every day, you see.

Ok two points here. One is these are things you THINK you need. Why do you THINK you need them? What is your expected use for the rifle and what information are you drawing on that you think you need those features? Make sure the tool is set up correctly for the job. What do you intend on using the rifle for? Oh and BTW Bushmaster will build the rifle - at the factory with whatever do-dads they sell that you want - FF rails, tritium sights, alternate stocks, folding front sights etc.

Alright, first off--and this may be simple symantics to you, but it's a very pertinent point to me--I never stated that it had what I needed on a rifle.  I said it had what I wanted.  I don't "need" more than what my Bushmaster already has--it's done everything I've ever asked of it.  You don't need a muscle car to get to work, if you see what I'm saying.

With that out of the way, I was totally unaware that Bushmaster would be willing to custom-make rifles to order.


I do believe that more or less addresses all of the concerns I'd have about the now-infamous Joe Schmuckatelli Gunsmithing Service™ and all that...  Thanks!


Slash-5:

OK, so the kid wants a Les Baer. Go get one. WTF cares? It is your money. I have built CAR-15's that will keep up with any Les Baer for a fraction of the price. I have one that I spent about $300 on and it gets 3/8 MOA, if a good shooter uses it. Why don't you take a second and LISTEN to what everyone is trying to tell you? THERE IS NOTHING MAJIC ABOUT THE NAME. Buy a registered lower, slap on the upper with the features you want, and quit whining.

I was unaware I was "whining".  Sorry?

Also, I have been listening to the commentary offered by the other users.  I do believe that I've even stated as much...


Variablebinary:

For some people the name on the side of the gun is worth the additional expense.

This is true for many, and I apologize if I came across that way.

Mrrick:

Point(s) taken--I'm still not exactly eager to start taking wrenches to my Bushmaster without a keen understanding of what I was going to be doing, though...

Brett_Bass,

You need trim your posts down and please get to the point.  If you want an asthetic rifle, get a nice looking high dollar bolt gun.  An AR-15 is a combat weapon.  It is made for war, cosmetics (tooling marks, etc) are not important as long as the finish is done to spec.  

It is not hard to assemble your own AR.  It is not like more traditional firearms that require expensive equipment and guages.  If you can turn a wrench, you can assemble an AR.

If you don't want to do it, a dealer on this board would be happy to do it for you.  Just tell him what you want or tell us what you want so we can help you pick out quality stuff.

The first think you need to do is get the name Les Baer out of you mind and start thinking about upgrading your current Bushmaster or buying a second AR if you want to leave the Bushmaster stock.


Scott

Quoted: Brett_Bass, You need trim your posts down and please get to the point.  If you want an asthetic rifle, get a nice looking high dollar bolt gun.  An AR-15 is a combat weapon.  It is made for war, cosmetics (tooling marks, etc) are not important as long as the finish is done to spec.   It is not hard to assemble your own AR.  It is not like more traditional firearms that require expensive equipment and guages.  If you can turn a wrench, you can assemble an AR. If you don't want to do it, a dealer on this board would be happy to do it for you.  Just tell him what you want or tell us what you want so we can help you pick out quality stuff. The first think you need to do is get the name Les Baer out of you mind and start thinking about upgrading your current Bushmaster or buying a second AR if you want to leave the Bushmaster stock. Scott

Scott, I appreciate your input.  Thanks.

That said, I would submit to you that you're just not reading all of my posts.  Your input is appreciated, like I said, but I'm simply trying to respond to all of the people that have taken the time to respond to me in as thorough and polite a manner as possible.  I openly admit to being longwinded at times, but sometimes 'I like X' just isn't an acceptable answer.  I'm just trying to get around to everyone that's bothered to respond to me, and I apologize if the length of my above posts has been daunting to you.


Also, this line...

An AR-15 is a combat weapon.  It is made for war, cosmetics (tooling marks, etc) are not important as long as the finish is done to spec.

...is disturbingly like the propaganda that flows forth from the likes of Senators Feinstein and Boxer in this neck of the woods.  It's a very valid perspective, but at the end of the day, that all it is--a perspective.  There are definitively some ARs out there that would not be servicable as combat weapons.  Most of Les Baer's stable of rifles, for example (likely including the very firearm that ignited this thread).  There are dedicated CMP and IPSC rifles, varmint rifles, and even those oddball NRA match spaceguns.  The AR15 is many things to many people, but that is neither here nor there.

Alright, in brief summation (as requested by Scott)...

It sounds as though the Thunder Ranch rifle isn't really the way to go.  The sights, barrel, and trigger don't sound to be all they're cracked up to be.  While I'm certain that the firearm is highly accurate and a joy to shoot, the input from most of the users has been fairly definitive:  It's an awful lot of money for a rifle that probably won't do quite what I would like as well as I would like.

I think I'll save my pennies for something else (like a decent flashlight mount for the existing rifle or a California-legal firearm to take the place of my Bushmaster while I'm in this state).  Maybe if I trip over a pile of platinum next time I'm hiking or something I'll look more seriously at investing in a Les Baer, but I think my wants would be better suited by talking to the Bushmaster custom shop.

Thanks, all.

Brett what bigbore said is the shortest and MOST accurate post yet. the "AR" is an accurate weapon, using quality parts the malfunctions are the ammo and the 10 ring is the proficiency of the shooter.

And thus ends another productive discussion of the merits of the Les Baer AR.

Good luck with that platinum find.

I first off want to state to everyone in this thread that I do NOT consider myself a weapons expert. I try not to answer any questions that are technical because I only have limited knowledge and experience other than what it takes to fire them as a novice with limited training behind one.  I have taken just ONE class at SIGARMS Academy - Defensive Rifle One.  I do know this, get the mentioned Bushmaster/Colt  ect. simply because they are perfect for learning what really matters in a long arm.  My new BM carbine got scratched, and scuffed up during that training class. If I bought one of the LB's or Wilson's I'd be pretty bent because that nice fiinsh that you pay for would be fucked up by now.   So as one newb to another Brett, start with something simple first, because you're gonna realize whats important and whats not in terms of quality and price. These guys are a little rough around the edges over here, but they just want everyone to be on the same page knowledge wise.  Good luck.

J223...