Quoted: Does IMI still make Galils for clients? ETA: Hey ocuppier or Ekie, did you handle some Galil's in the IDF?  How did they perform?  How were the ergonomics and accuracy?

Never served in the IDF.  I did have a semiautomatic Galil though, and it was a very interesting firearm.  Things I liked were the workmanship, real nice trigger and sights.  But, they are way to heavy, if you are going to hump something that weighs that much it needs to be 7.62 NATO, or have an optic or something.  I sold it and bought another Colt.

ETA:

I got the idea that if you were to cut say 2" out of the buttstock, that the weight of the rifle would be brought closer to the body, and would probably not be as awkward.

Quoted: Quoted: On a different note, Cutshaw is a Marine who first saw the weapon in Vietnam, when it was still teething.  His first impressions from the Stoner design, compared to the Kalashnikov design, instilled a bias he still holds today.  While today his logic doesn't hold up to the current iteration of the 16, he still has a bad taste in his mouth. Charles Q Cutshaw was an army infantry officer, not a Marine

Ha, you are not claiming the guy huh?

All those rooftop vantage points might open up some chances to deter fmobs, gangs and looters from range if I had interests I wasnt willing to walk away from.

I've always like the punch and range of the .308. A close 2nd to my RRA carbine would be an M1A scout with some glass

Quoted: Quoted: Does IMI still make Galils for clients? ETA: Hey ocuppier or Ekie, did you handle some Galil's in the IDF?  How did they perform?  How were the ergonomics and accuracy? Never served in the IDF.  I did have a semiautomatic Galil though, and it was a very interesting firearm.  Things I liked were the workmanship, real nice trigger and sights.  But, they are way to heavy, if you are going to hump something that weighs that much it needs to be 7.62 NATO, or have an optic or something.  I sold it and bought another Colt. ETA: I got the idea that if you were to cut say 2" out of the buttstock, that the weight of the rifle would be brought closer to the body, and would probably not be as awkward.

Do you think if they created stamped receievers your weight issue would go away?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does IMI still make Galils for clients? ETA: Hey ocuppier or Ekie, did you handle some Galil's in the IDF?  How did they perform?  How were the ergonomics and accuracy? Never served in the IDF.  I did have a semiautomatic Galil though, and it was a very interesting firearm.  Things I liked were the workmanship, real nice trigger and sights.  But, they are way to heavy, if you are going to hump something that weighs that much it needs to be 7.62 NATO, or have an optic or something.  I sold it and bought another Colt. ETA: I got the idea that if you were to cut say 2" out of the buttstock, that the weight of the rifle would be brought closer to the body, and would probably not be as awkward. Do you think if they created stamped receievers your weight issue would go away?

Yep, that would fix it.

Quoted: Cutshaw is an idiot and why I no longer buy SOF.

Gee; I cut SOF off my reading list when Kokalis was their gun guru, and I realized he was peddling his good reviews to the highest bidder. Example?  He raved about the Chinese AKs, and shortly thereafter got an all expenses paid trip to China.  The Koreans didn't give him a trip to Seoul, so he panned EVERYTHING about the K2s except the plastic coated sling swivels (no lie).

The man actually bragged in print about unloading some non functional AR mags on an unsuspecting buyer at a gun show.  That was enough for me.

Looks like they've replaced him with another shmuck.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Does IMI still make Galils for clients? ETA: Hey ocuppier or Ekie, did you handle some Galil's in the IDF?  How did they perform?  How were the ergonomics and accuracy? Never served in the IDF.  I did have a semiautomatic Galil though, and it was a very interesting firearm.  Things I liked were the workmanship, real nice trigger and sights.  But, they are way to heavy, if you are going to hump something that weighs that much it needs to be 7.62 NATO, or have an optic or something.  I sold it and bought another Colt. ETA: I got the idea that if you were to cut say 2" out of the buttstock, that the weight of the rifle would be brought closer to the body, and would probably not be as awkward. Do you think if they created stamped receievers your weight issue would go away? Yep, that would fix it.

Any idea why IMI never tried it?

Quoted: I've seen more malfunctions of M16s than an other weapon in the military.

That is because there are more M16s than any other weapon in the military.

Quoted: Quoted: I've seen more malfunctions of M16s than an other weapon in the military. That is because there are more M16s than any other weapon in the military.

In the US military, of course.  In world militaries and militias the AK is king.

ETA: I'm not saying I dislike the M-16 at all.  I actually love it.  It is not flawless, however.  Every rifle has its pros and cons.

Quoted: Quoted: On a different note, Cutshaw is a Marine who first saw the weapon in Vietnam, when it was still teething.  His first impressions from the Stoner design, compared to the Kalashnikov design, instilled a bias he still holds today.  While today his logic doesn't hold up to the current iteration of the 16, he still has a bad taste in his mouth. Charles Q Cutshaw was an army infantry officer, not a Marine

Ahh, you are correct sir.  My mistake.  But, he did have some record of working with the Corps later.  That must have lodged itself into my tiny brain.

Quoted: Quoted: Cutshaw is an idiot and why I no longer buy SOF. Gee; I cut SOF off my reading list when Kokalis was their gun guru, and I realized he was peddling his good reviews to the highest bidder. Example?  He raved about the Chinese AKs, and shortly thereafter got an all expenses paid trip to China.  The Koreans didn't give him a trip to Seoul, so he panned EVERYTHING about the K2s except the plastic coated sling swivels (no lie). The man actually bragged in print about unloading some non functional AR mags on an unsuspecting buyer at a gun show.  That was enough for me. Looks like they've replaced him with another shmuck.

Could be true.  That or he had something against the Koreans.  

(Damn, double post.  Sorry.)

Quoted: Quoted: I've seen more malfunctions of M16s than an other weapon in the military. That is because there are more M16s than any other weapon in the military.

No, as I said before it's because of bad magazines. The rifles are fine and are actually more reliable than AKs in my experiance, not journalists.

Hi,
I served my regular service (18-21) in the IDF infantry with a Galil. It was a truely reliable combat weapon and would function in all conditions whether it was clean or not. However during a 3 month period at squad leaders course in the Negev desert I was issued a short M16 carbine which would jam all the time. I believe that during one exercise I had 15 jams between 3 mags. Sure it was light and you could shoot it with one hand (which was useful because my left hand was busy recocking the weapon to extract the jammed cartridges) but would you want to have your life depend on something like that?

With the Galil I was assigned after returning to my home battalion, I experienced only ONE jam during 1.5 years of serious shooting in various dirty environments (and I wasn't particular about the dented cartridges I sometimes loaded).

In '94 my reserve unit switched from Galils to M16A1s and we were in for a shock. About one third of the issued rifles at a training base in the desert jammed at the beginning of the excercise, another third during the excercise (I suspect that these were old beat up "whore" rifles that belonged to the training base - some were even manufactured by Hydromatics). My jams were mostly failure to extract and I began to walk around with a cleaning rod at the ready just like an old time musketeer.

I know that US soldiers usually say that the M16 is fine as long as you keep it clean. Well to me, that isn't good enough for a COMBAT weapon. Even if you start out with a clean rifle, in the field sand and dust WILL enter, especially the mags in your pouches when you're crawling around.

Later experience with our own unit's M16A1s was better, but reliability was nowhere as good as with the Galil. I think that most of the problems stem from the flimsy M16 magazines. In the IDF, they believe that the mags were designed to be disposable throw-aways by the rich US Army. BTW SOP in the IDF is to load 29 rounds, suppossedly to preserve the spring.

To minimize this problem, after being issued my gear I try to test fire all my mags and whenever I find a bad one, I return it to the supply dude after first crushing it (so they can't pass it on to the next sucker). In the last couple of years I've been a designated marksman so I've been assigned M16A2E3s (basically an A2 with auto) which were received brand new and with these I have exerienced few jams (and all due to bad mags). I recently shot close to 500 rounds at the firing range without a single jam. On the other hand these days we're usually serving in cleaner urban areas and operating from bases rather than in true sandy/muddy war/field conditions. I think that if we're ever involved in a real conventional war the IDF will be relearning its history with the FAL.

My last serious training package had 24 M4 style weapons from a dozen manufacturers.  We sent about 40,000 rounds downrange with a handful of malfunctions.  AZ high desert, sand everywhere.

The package after that was a little different.  Three operators, myself, and my brother experienced no gun related malfunctions, while less dedicated personnel with untested commercial AR's (read "match grade") had significant problems.  Also, a Bushmaster carrier came unstaked after 5 years and 10,000 rounds.

Quoted: Don't you guys find it funny that some people are always down on the stoner system, yet the great FAL failed the Israeli defense force's during the 6 day war? It was said it performed badly in the desert. Sand issue. I know they first adopted the Galil but troops did not like thr home grown AK copy. they then went to the M16 types. Also as you know the SAS choose the M16 over the the FAL and SA80. So that being said why do you think some people are still down on the M16 system, Also head to head how do the FAL and the M16A2 compare, I know there is a big diff in caliber but I'm talking mainly reliability, accuracy and ergonomics. what do you guys think?

Oh, and the NYT recently ran an article on the new Iraqi military wanting better weapons... Seems that they want to replace the AKs we've been supplying them with M4s...

Of course, some of their respect for the M4 may be due to seeing how well it was employed against them (sound familliar??), but still...

I think alot of the 'jam reputation' is (a) left over from Vietnam, and (b) due to perspective - somehow the guy who's shooting at you never has a jam, but you remember every time you do
(see Iraqi 'AK for M4')...

I think zragon13's post pretty much says it all about M16 function problems.  IT"S THE MAGS!

Most of you young pups haven't seen early GI manuals on the M16, but the first ones specified that mags were to be discarded after either 3 or 4 uses (can't remember which). After a few years, when experience indicated that MOST of them would last longer, that requirement was dropped; but the fact remains that the longer you keep an AR/M16 mag in service, the more likely you are to start getting failures.

Which is precisely why this AR owner uses nothing but (North Carolina built) Thermolds, and steel Brit 30 rounders. Do have a few GI 20 rounders for bench rest use.

As I posted earlier, the Israelis use everything to the point of the equipment turning into junk.  I've seen pics of Zahalniks with mags that the retaining tips of the floorplates had been broken off, and the floorplates replaced with plastic pieces retained by screws in the side.

The Brits, and others, figured out the problem yeas ago and thus the steel mag was born.  Why the hell we keep using those POS aluminum jobs is totally beyond me. They're simply not worth the few ounces saved.

And that's my sermon for this Sunday.

Quoted: Why the hell we keep using those POS aluminum jobs is totally beyond me. They're simply not worth the few ounces saved. And that's my sermon for this Sunday.

Amen brother, sheet aluminum is for beer cans, not mags.

That Tavor bullpup thingy looks awesome. Looks like it takes AR mags too.
Are they gunna produce a civilian version?

Quoted: That Tavor bullpup thingy looks awesome. Looks like it takes AR mags too. Are they gunna produce a civilian version?

Are they going to build a factory in the US so they won't be imported?

Spooky

Quoted: Quoted: It's a shame that the Israeli people were forced to give up their lands to placate an enemy who will never be satisfied and only seek their destruction. Keep up the fight. Sean Boy do you have your shit backwards and that's all I'm going to say about that in a technical forum.

   CGV, Where are you coming from? I'm ashamed you would say that coming from ky.

For those who believe that the only reason the Israelis replaced the Fal with the M16 was because we give them money that they have to spend buying American made to buy the M16 is just untrue. If you would go to the Israeli special forces webpage they lay it all out. "http://www.isayeret.com/"  unfortunetly it's now a pay sight, but if you value the truth it may be worth it. The fal was less reliable, less user friendly and considered inaccurate. the m16 is cherished by the soldiers who carry them.

This discussion will go nowhere.  At this point either you like the AR or you don't and no amount of arguing is going to change your mind.

Quoted: All I"m gonna say is that my AR is y range/fun rifle.  My FAL is for if things ever get serious.

+1

Quoted: Hi, I served my regular service (18-21) in the IDF infantry with a Galil. It was a truely reliable combat weapon and would function in all conditions whether it was clean or not. However during a 3 month period at squad leaders course in the Negev desert I was issued a short M16 carbine which would jam all the time. I believe that during one exercise I had 15 jams between 3 mags. Sure it was light and you could shoot it with one hand (which was useful because my left hand was busy recocking the weapon to extract the jammed cartridges) but would you want to have your life depend on something like that? With the Galil I was assigned after returning to my home battalion, I experienced only ONE jam during 1.5 years of serious shooting in various dirty environments (and I wasn't particular about the dented cartridges I sometimes loaded). In '94 my reserve unit switched from Galils to M16A1s and we were in for a shock. About one third of the issued rifles at a training base in the desert jammed at the beginning of the excercise, another third during the excercise (I suspect that these were old beat up "whore" rifles that belonged to the training base - some were even manufactured by Hydromatics). My jams were mostly failure to extract and I began to walk around with a cleaning rod at the ready just like an old time musketeer. You proabally just need some new magazines and $10 worth of springs.  I would say a worn out $1.00 extractor spring was your culprit.  Stuff like this needs to be thrown into the armorers lap. Sounds like your stuff needed a depot level rebuild to spec.  Heaven knows how many rounds your hand me down rifles had on them before you got them.

A BIG +1 on that HeavyMetal.  He said he was issued A1s in 1994!  I am sure all the springs were worn out!  I bet I could make that rifle pur for $50.