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Posted: 8/31/2005 9:30:37 AM EDT
[#1]
I know of a six day war, but not a three day war. Which conflict are you referring to?
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Posted: 8/31/2005 9:31:24 AM EDT
[#2]
Accuracy may be close but the m16 system is plenty accurate for a military weapon IMO. And I really doubt you'll find many weapons more ergonomic than the m16/ar15 style.
I guess m16 takes the reliability catagory as well. Or they would be using the FAL |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 9:41:34 AM EDT
[#3]
Personally speaking, I think the ergonomics on the FAL suck. I don't like the stock, the pistol grip seems to be at a wierd angle, I didn't like the rear site, and the front handguards are tiny and heat up quick.
All my opinion, but the M16/AR15 is better in every way, if you don't count caliber. WIZZO |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 9:42:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Fortunately I'm not in the desert and my FAL runs great in my environment.
I'm selling my FAL soon, but not because it is an inferior battle weapon, only because I will not be in any battles and the AR works better for me for playing games. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 9:47:54 AM EDT
[#5]
I have had the opportunity of building both type of firearms. I can say they both have their pros and cons.
FAL pros less powder residue is pushed into the bolt Adjustable gas system Cons Adjustable gas system, not as straight forward as the M16 More in depth Armor knowledge required for repairs More felt recoil, not really fair do to larger caliber. A lot less aftermarket options there are probably more then what I have listed but these are some of the more important ones that came to mind. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 9:53:23 AM EDT
[#6]
This has been hashed to pieces on the FAL FILES. This is what I gleened from that discussion:
1) Israel do not use the M16 for its ability to work full of sand. The M16's are provided FREE by the us government. They developed the GALIL for ultimate reliability in their environment noting the Egyptian troops had far less problems with their AK's, but the galils are mostly used by reserve forces as the bulk of the army is supplied with US M16s. As you know, the AK and Galil moving parts are practically suspended in the receiver with plenty of room for lots of debris and a grossy simple rotating bolt in comparison with the M16 bolt. 2) They also did sand cut mods to their FAL HB's which stayed in service longer than the LB's. Has nothing to do with the gas system, has to do with how much sand and debris can a precision fit weapon eat before it doesn't work. The AR can eat almost no sand before it doesn't work, but has the advantage of a dust cover which effectively seals it out making it entirely usable. The fal had no provision for this. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:17:38 AM EDT
[#8]
Absolute bullshit. We do not give Israel hand-me-down weapons. They get there own. Ever notice a Isreali AR-15 full size rifle? Notice the brass deflector and field sights? A combination that is not USGI. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:19:15 AM EDT
[#9]
Because they didn't know shit then and they don't know shit know. It will never change. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:21:12 AM EDT
[#10]
one- the galil is not used by reserve- reservists use the m16/m4 depending on reserve unit- only the tankers and artilerly guys use the galil because of its small size. two- most of our weapons are used. we get some new ones, but alot were previously used by the us military. and every single m16/m4 variant is still stamped "property of us govt" |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:25:30 AM EDT
[#11]
I don't believe you M4s are stamped Property of US Govt. A RO920/RO921 are USGI weapons. A RO977/RO979 are the same as above but without US Govt markings. They are export versions. They are simply marked M4 or M4A1. What I said in red was fact. You may have old US lowers but not complete USGI weapons. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:34:17 AM EDT
[#12]
Accuracy and ergonomics go hands down to the AR. Reliability...well...I can't say. Supposedly the FAL, but I have never had a problem with my ARs that were not attributable to lack of maintenance, bad ammo or bad mags.
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:40:29 AM EDT
[#13]
note the Property of US Govt markings. I will take clearer pictures tommorow.
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:46:40 AM EDT
[#14]
A huge portion of Israel's defense budget is provided by the USA under the condition that a large portion of it is used to purchase arms from American companies.
Many Israeli M16's and CAR's are older American weapons that were purchased in the 1970's for a highly discounted rate, but we didnt dump them on israel. Currently they purchase new M16 weapons from Colt. I run into Israeli private security fairly often and every single M16 I've seen has been made by Colt Furthermore, the M16 is their standard weapon but Israel uses a variety of small arms like the AK47, Valmet, tavor, Galil, M1 Carbine, and the Magal. Since the USA makes them spend our funding on American Companies it was easy for Israel to drop the Galil and use our money on our arms instead of building them domestically. If Israel built an M16 under license they would not be able to use our money to pay for it |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:53:15 AM EDT
[#15]
Ok, I beleive you. But that still doesn't mean the M4s were issued to the US before Israel, they could have came that way straight from Colt since the US and Israel have the agreement. And Isreal is using US money to buy US weapons I guess they could have property marks. In more general explination, my point was that if country X buys an AR15 variant from Colt, it will not have US property marks as there are two seperate Colt model numbers for USGI and non USGI weapons even though they are the exact same weapon. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 10:55:18 AM EDT
[#16]
Yes, my point was we do not give them USGI weapons which may be wrong.
Correct, I never said they make there own under license. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 11:07:13 AM EDT
[#17]
so which one do yall like better? FAL? M16/M4 varients? Galil? AK? other ? 
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Posted: 8/31/2005 11:13:45 AM EDT
[#18]
I have personally fired m16s made by armalite and hydramatic corp- maybe what you have seen is only colt. Alphaghost- each weapon has its advantages and disadvantages. units are issued weapons depending on their intended purpose- infantry is given shorties or m4s, tankers are given galil- small and can be thrown around... shayetet (seals) are given AKs for when they get wet, matkal gets whatever they want... I was thrilled the day that I got my m4 socom- perfect for what i was doing. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 11:32:51 AM EDT
[#19]
They may come straight from colt on a lend lease agreement.
As I stated my info was gleened from another discussion similar to this and simply paraphrased, so my information is no better than yours, third party rumor. It is a fact that Israel gets defence subsidization from the US. I am going to have to go with the Israeli guy on this one as he is the guy sitting in israel beside a US Property marked M4. Nice to have guys in the know contributing. Do you guys use alot of M16A1's? I have seen many in news reports carried by the IDF. If you are allowed to talk about it, how did the disengagement go? We get the news reports, but they usually slant one way or the other. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 11:38:01 AM EDT
[#20]
Isreal gets military funding from the US with the stipulation that they HAVE to use it with US Defense contractors. MOST of the M16A1s and M16 carbines they are using were part of a HUGE US emergency airlift of arms and munitions (thats where they got their M14s also) during the 1973 Yom Kippur war. Its safe to assume that the newer M4s they are using were purchased using US military aid funding.
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Posted: 8/31/2005 11:38:57 AM EDT
[#21]
the a1s are given to people in basic training, jobnikim (remfs), and reservists. here where you carry your gun everywhere it is considered embarassing to carry a long one. people are really proud of their weapons and the more specialized it is the more "wasach" you have- people can tell what type of unit you are in by your weapon- certain optics and lasres are only for sf... Disengagement was terrible- it went smoothly, but it is impossible to describe the emotions mixed in. rarely have you ever seen a major general crying on the shoulder of his son who he must remove- our head of groiund forces, his son lived in gaza- some of the hardest warriors out there went through the week crying just like the little children that they had to remove. it was a traumatic experience for everyone involved. a good friend of mine from my unit lived in rafiah yam, he was removed also- he is totaly broken- his house where he grew up, his neighborhood, all of his memories are gone now.......... |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 12:35:31 PM EDT
[#22]
Do you mind telling the type of M16 weapons not made by Colt? Israel has been consuming M16's from the USA for 30+ years. So There are sure to be many brands in circulation. National Defense being the priority it is, I dont see old weapons being disposed of for the sake of streamlining inventory |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 12:42:22 PM EDT
[#23]
It's a shame that the Israeli people were forced to give up their lands to placate an enemy who will never be satisfied and only seek their destruction.
Keep up the fight. Sean |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 12:49:47 PM EDT
[#24]
I am not sure exactly where this is going, but it is certainly digressing from the original point of the thread. I dont even fully understand your question. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 1:21:00 PM EDT
[#25]
Don't have any hands on experience with any of IDF's small arms, but I am familiar with USGI small arms. The rifles marked Hydramatic are M16A1's manufactured in the late 1960's. Rifles marked ARMALITE AR15 are Model 01's manufactured by Colt's, and most went to the US Air Force. Am surprised to hear that IDF has Model 01's, those are quite old, and are collectibles more then anything else. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 1:21:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Tagged, for US Property marked M4 pics. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 1:26:36 PM EDT
[#27]
Scott, you're getting our butt kicked on this issue. What exactly are you trying to say anyway? When you say, "they get their own," yeah, they do, with money they've been given by the US government. Are you saying the IDF has no rifles in their inventory that were once in US military inventories? |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 1:34:12 PM EDT
[#28]
As someone who knows many members of the IDF and a number of Six Day War veterans, here the facts:
The FAL did not have 'bad' jamming issues in the war, in fact it preformed better than expected. The FAL was a disappointment because of its rather poor close-quarters performance compared to the AK-47, for this reason it was replaced. The Galil was designed as the FALs replacement, large numbers were built, they are still in service with the IDF, often times you’ll find two or so Galils per second echelon squad. The M16 became the main Israeli rifle thanks to the United States, we give Israel military aid packages rather often, but these aid packages come with significant discounts for American goods [F-15s, M-16s, Patriot SAMs, blah blah], in other words Israel could have spent the aid package on building their own Galils, but with the same aid package they could purchase two or three times that number in M16s at discount from the United States. If you're arming a large military and have to decide between 1 galil per $XXX or 3 M16s for the same amount, it's not that hard a decision. Israeli M16s are a really interesting mix, most of the ‘front line’ rifle were purchased brand new from American manufactures. However, the ‘reserve’ rifles tend to resemble the Untied States Air Force armament choices… Everything from old surplus M16A1s to early-90s CAR-15s to brand new Israeli-style M16A2s all mixed together, non of it making much sense. Sorry to bust everyones bubbles, but that's the reality. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 1:41:52 PM EDT
[#29]
All I"m gonna say is that my AR is y range/fun rifle. My FAL is for if things ever get serious.
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Posted: 8/31/2005 1:49:59 PM EDT
[#30]
Ekie, Zahal (the IDF) never throws away or retires ANYTHING.  They keep on rebuilding them until they're junk. I'm sure those Armalite and Hydramatic lowers have long since been rebuilt, many with M4 uppers, or lightweight carbine barrels and C7 type uppers.I'm equally sure that those lowers originally came over as complete rifles during the Yom Kippur War, sent over to help counter the AKMs that Egypt was getting from the Soviets. More recently, however, Israel has used the aid money they've gotten to purchase both complete rifles from Colt; and also barrels, uppers, stocks, etc to upgrade those early versions to more current configurations. I'd be really surprised to find an original Armalite marked lower with the top end it left the factory with still on it  The Israelis have been doing this since day one. The '98 Mauser I had in Sinai in 1956 had already been rebarrelled at least once. But then, haven't we recently had some pics posted of US forces early M16s w/A2 uppers installed? BTW: I may be misremembering, but I do seem to recall something in the aid agreement w/the Israelis requires the M16s/M4s Colt ships to them new be marked "US Property", which would explain why new pieces they are getting are so marked. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 1:57:40 PM EDT
[#31]
Were the Galil's replaced because of all the cracked receivers? |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 2:00:49 PM EDT
[#32]
I guess I might have to backpeddle on some of the first statement. They apparently have gotten former USGI weapons. However, there are numerous pics around with IDF with non USGI configured AR-15s, therefore some didn't come from the US military but seperate purchases from Colt. Some of my statements are educated guesses and I really haven't been wrong or getting my butt kicked with any of my statements except the first one. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 2:03:38 PM EDT
[#33]
Huh? Maybe you know something I don't but this is a totally new assertion to me. The Galil I've owned since 1983 is doing just fine.
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Posted: 8/31/2005 2:06:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Well, where are the old uppers? I want one! Come to think of it, they were probably not importable under the old rules. Something about former US stuff not being allowed back in. Thanks to the IDF I do have a nice AKM though: 
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Posted: 8/31/2005 2:07:58 PM EDT
[#35]
Rumor is that the 7.62 Galil would crack receivers. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 2:14:33 PM EDT
[#36]
Peter Kokalis (if my memory is not all bad) wrote about a trip to an armory in Isreal awash in cracked 5.56mm Galil receivers and said it was common. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 2:32:58 PM EDT
[#37]
Well, see here's the thing. If you look at their M16s you will find they are very old, many of them dating to the Vetnam war era. It's not like we're unloading truckfulls of new M16s on their doorstep regularly. They DO have Galils. But, the only people who use them are people who are less likely to have to use a weapon. The reason is, the soldiers just do not like the Galil, especially because it is too heavy. As for the non-standard M16 configs you see over there, that is because they frequently rebuild the rifles using parts. Instead of getting new M4s, they got shorter barrels and telestocks and replaced old worn barrels with them, etc. |
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Posted: 9/1/2005 10:38:51 PM EDT
[#38]
WOW , anyone trying to compare AR reliability to the FAL has to be smoking something ! Granted the AR has come a long way and has the best egronomics of any rife but it still can't compare. The FAL is by far one design that can be rode hard and put away wet . The AR is definatly more accurate and easier to master but REQUIRES constant attention . The only rifle I own that has never had a single issue is a DSA FAL . The AR is my primary home defense tool due to the fact that my wife can also shoot it quickly and accuratly but if things really went bad , like they are in New Orleans , my FAL would be bringing me comfort .
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Posted: 9/2/2005 12:50:18 AM EDT
[#39]
+1 |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 4:14:43 AM EDT
[#40]
Boy do you have your shit backwards and that's all I'm going to say about that in a technical forum. |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 5:55:30 AM EDT
[#41]
Israel lost faith in the FAL because of the "bang-bang-jam" syndrome, as did a lot of other countries. In full auto fire, many FALs would simply choke at the third or fourth round. Not a good thing in combat. It seems to have something to do with the tilting bolt mechanism in general, and even affects the heavy barreled "light support" variants.
If I remember correctly, Israel buys their M16s and M4s through the Department of Defense, so basically DoD buys them first, thus the "US Property" markings. We certainly don't supply them with massive numbers of new rifles every year, and the Isralis are quite good at keeping older weapons going for a long, long time. While we do not "give" any weapons to Israel, we do give them a fairly large amount of money, most of which must be spent purchasing equipment and supplies through the DoD's Foreign Military Sales program. |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 6:22:27 AM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 9/2/2005 6:29:06 AM EDT
[#43]
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Posted: 9/2/2005 6:32:53 AM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 9/2/2005 6:58:27 AM EDT
[#45]
Cutshaw is the ghey. All of his articles about the AR, M16, M4, 5.56 etc...so full of BS dogma/gunnut rumor and ignorance; Of coarse that is unless he doing an "evaluation" of a Les Baer, or some other commercial AR, only then it is "this is excellent rifle, I experienced no malfunctions, and it is accurate to boot." The M16 being "designed" for the tropics is news to me.  I would love to see a source where Sullivan, Stoner, any of the engineers say that it was "designed" for jungle. |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 7:34:44 AM EDT
[#46]
Cutshaw is an idiot and why I no longer buy SOF.
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Posted: 9/2/2005 9:35:07 AM EDT
[#47]
Well, as for the 16 and sand, I think it can take more than people give it credit for.
During BCT, we were at the NIC (Night Infiltration Course). My particular rifle was a Hydramatic rebuild from 'Nam. A1 had a 2 stamped over the 1, and the Auto had a silver Burst plate in it's place. Anyways, my dust cover had a loose spring, and after crawling 200m through the sand, it had popped open somewhere within that long stretch. My elbows were rubbed raw, I was tired, and I saw grit in my rifle. Not exactly a warm feeling. Well, I cycled my rifle about 8 times while I was waiting for the others to get on line. I slapped in my mag (loaded with blanks), and we rushed the objective. My rifle was on burst, and the first 3 rounds chugged slowly, with visible clouds of sand spewing from the rifle. It did that for about 9 more rounds, then it ran smooth. Granted, this wasn't real combat, but considering I've always heard people slag the 16 for being a jammomatic, and the fact that I was using blanks in a beat up weapon, I didn't have a single malfunction. Sure, I did a little preventive maintenance, but it worked. I trust the AR-15/M16 weapon. If you take care of it, it will take care of you. On a different note, Cutshaw is a Marine who first saw the weapon in Vietnam, when it was still teething. His first impressions from the Stoner design, compared to the Kalashnikov design, instilled a bias he still holds today. While today his logic doesn't hold up to the current iteration of the 16, he still has a bad taste in his mouth. |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 12:21:19 PM EDT
[#48]
I've seen more malfunctions of M16s than an other weapon in the military. It didn't matter if it was an old A1 or a brand new A2 on the rifle range. They had an incredible rate of malfunctions. Even in Basic my Drill Sergeant grabbed a new A2 that just ran through the range with zero malfunctions and got a low score in Rifle Qualification when it kept malfunctioning. For years I kept seeing the same thing, over and over. It seemed like I was one of the few that rarely had a problem. Why? The magazines were old, worn, and in many cases damaged. It’s all bad mags. All the myth and BS is just bad mags being issued. When I would get one with obviously bent up feeding lips I’d exchange it for a good one and be on my way, so my problems were minimal. It was also luck of the draw on many many occasions. Right now even the formerly uber Beretta 9mm has a bad rep because of bad mags. I have a couple of Bulgarian 5.45mm mags that are unreliable as well. A bad magazine turns any rifle into your worst nightmare. |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 12:28:37 PM EDT
[#49]
Does IMI still make Galils for clients?
ETA: Hey ocuppier or Ekie, did you handle some Galil's in the IDF? How did they perform? How were the ergonomics and accuracy? |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 12:31:18 PM EDT
[#50]
Charles Q Cutshaw was an army infantry officer, not a Marine |
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