Tweak,
Yes, the COLT carry handle has the taller rear sight base "shelf"...

Quoted: Quoted: You will notice on 20" A3 barrels there are two raised bands on the barrel under the handguards. This designates that the barrel has the front sight base with the front sight that is milled high for the front sight post. pic?

Sorry Tweak, Bushmaster didn't send me any pictures.

Quoted: I was wondering if anyone else had one as I have never seen that, maybe they're real small or something.

+1 I would like to see a pic of this mark also.

Thanks for such an informative topic.  I must have one of the rifles with an over torque barrel nut.  It has the stainless heavy barrel that I bought new two years ago and my first AR15 so I did not know what was normal in sighting in this type of rifle.  I was never pleased with how far the rear sight was off center nor impressed with the accuracy, but I just wrote it off to the nature of this type of gun.  Well after reading this tread last night, I pulled it out and check the adjustment.  It is an even 20 clicks to the left so I will give Bushmaster a call today and see what they have to say.

Quoted: Thanks for such an informative topic.  I must have one of the rifles with an over torque barrel nut.  It has the stainless heavy barrel that I bought new two years ago and my first AR15 so I did not know what was normal in sighting in this type of rifle.  I was never pleased with how far the rear sight was off center nor impressed with the accuracy, but I just wrote it off to the nature of this type of gun.  Well after reading this tread last night, I pulled it out and check the adjustment.  It is an even 20 clicks to the left so I will give Bushmaster a call today and see what they have to say.

From posts Ive read from others that have experienced the same touble, Bushmaster should fix it free of charge without any question...

Let us know how it turns out...

I called this morning and Bushmaster said send it back.  So it is now in UPS’s trusted care.

At 100 yards I missed the target :/
I live 1 yard over from a gun range. I'm trying to get ahold of the owner to become a member of the gunrange.

It's a nice range. They have different ranges for pistol/small calibers, to a 600 yard competition/USMC type rifle range (with 100, 200, 300 yard target backstops within the 600 yards)


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Uncle
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Have
I'd also question other elements of BRM here.  I see pix posted on this site all the time of guys doing crazy stuff that would effect zero.  An example is a collapsible fully extended where the shooter is in an awkward (and goofy looking) shooting position and where cheek to stock weld could vary extensively after each shot.  It indicates a lack of training with the weapon system.  There is a reason that BRM teaches tip of the nose to the charging handle....same cheek to stock weld=same site picture shot after shot=consistency.

I have zeroed and used every variation of this weapon in the military from the M16A1 through the M4A1 over the past 20 yrs.  I have owned numerous civilian versions including Colts and multiple Bushmasters of the A2/A3 20in and M4 16in varieties and I have never had a problem zeroing.    Just my two cents.  Kevin    

Quoted: ...when they should first be asking the original poster questions regarding his techniques in zeroing the weapon.

That was asked at the top of page 2 - second post on the page IIRC.

That Bushy came with a 25m zero target...use it.   Put it on a large backer board.   I'm pretty sure you won't be off the backer at 25m.

The problem with that method is IF you zero at 25M, following the Army's A2 procedure, then go to shoot a target at 100y your rounds will be striking around 6" high.  If you're using a small target (like an 8.5x11 sheet of paper or a 10" paper plate, your rounds SHOULD miss the target if you're holding a good group and you've zeroed it perfectly.

I agree he should have told us zeroing method and target size so we could figure out if it's one or the other.

Forest,

BTW, I'm in MD too.  

Now explain this to me.  If I am shooting a 25m military zero using the standard target which simulates a mansize silouette at 300m, how am I going to be 6" high at 100yds?  I have zeroed all my ARs using these targets and have not had this problem.  I will say that I have not shot my M4 with ARMS 40 at 100yds using the irons because I am shooting a Comp M2 primarily.  I am breaking clay pigeons at 50yds  in the standing unsupported.  I am confident in a man size at 100yds.   Thanks in advance, Kevin

Forest,

Forgot to add this.  The military zero takes into account being able to make adequate hits (for lack of a better term) on targets between zero and 300m.  On a military qualification range, the 50m target is a chest/head silouette and although you will be a little high at that range, you will not miss the target.  You will be center mass at 300m if zeroed properly.   I believe some of the problem here may be guys mixing match shooting accuracy with combat accuracy.  The sites on these guns and the zeroing techniques were developed for combat accuracy, not shooting one hole groups.  I think it is wrong for guys to assail a company because they have match grade expectations from a combat weapon.  Am I off base here?  We are talking a removeable carrying handle so I guess we are talking combat accuracy.

The military zero at 25m doesn't really give the 300m far zero they thought it did.  

Using Winchester's data for Q3131A (M193) of 3270fps @ muzzle and BC of .266 a 25m (27.34yd) zero gives a mid-range trajectory of 10" high around 230yds.  That's plenty high enough to miss a head & shoulders target if you hold center.

A better way, the so-called "improved battlesight zero" given on Forest's site, is to zero at 50yds/200m.  This gives a mid-range trajectory only 2.3" high and still keeps you just 3.4" low at 300yds with a far crossing at 250yds.  Much more useful at combat distances.  

I believe the USMC is zeroing at 36yds now, which gives a proper 300m far zero and a 5.4" mid-range trajectory, which while not quite a good at closer ranges as the 50y/200m IBZ is much better than the old zero.  

The problem with that method is IF you zero at 25M, following the Army's A2 procedure, then go to shoot a target at 100y your rounds will be striking around 6" high. If you're using a small target (like an 8.5x11 sheet of paper or a 10" paper plate, your rounds SHOULD miss the target if you're holding a good group and you've zeroed it perfectly.

The Army method of zeroing allows you to aim center mass at all targets from 25 meters to 300 meters. This is shooting at a human sillouette. The target zone for the Army targets is 10" wide x 12" high center mass.  While you may be 6" high at 100 meters, if you are shooting at a 2 legged varmit, you will hit it in the chest area. Tango Down.

When zeroing the Army way, after you readjust the rear sight 1 click back to 8/3, you are not zeroed at 25/250 meters anymore. You are now zeroed at 75/325 meters. This is what allows the center of mass aiming point out to 300 meters.

The old A1 method of zeroing didn't have a rear sight elevation adjustment for zeroing and when zero was complete you were zeroed for 25/250 meters. This required aiming low at the 50 meter target and high at the 300 meter target. "Kentucky Windage" was neccessary for target engagement. Not so with the Army A2 method.

If you use the Army A2 method, you can be assured of hits in a 10"x12" man sized target provided you do your part. If you are shooting for pure accuracy, there are different zero methods you should use.

Quoted: BTW, I'm in MD too.

Excellent, be sure to stop by the MD AR Shooters Site somtime as well as the MD hometown forum on this site.

Now explain this to me.  If I am shooting a 25m military zero using the standard target which simulates a mansize silouette at 300m, how am I going to be 6" high at 100yds?

Because bullets don't travel in a straight line.  For that round to hit Point of Impact = Point of Aim at 25 Meters it has to 'rise' some 2.6".  So it's going upward at this angle by 50y it's around 2.25" high, at 75y it's over 4" high, at 100y over 6" (it's even worse with the M4).

I have zeroed all my ARs using these targets and have not had this problem.

I'll bet you've never shot bullseye targets at various ranges to compare point of impact vs point of aim. (BTW this is covered in FM23-9 or whatever they renumbered that manual to)

I am breaking clay pigeons at 50yds  in the standing unsupported.

Sure at 50y you're just over 2" high, you should easily break the clay pigeons as they are over 4" in diameter.

I am confident in a man size at 100yds.

 
Sure but a standard Army silloughet target is 18" wide by 40" tall (simulates a kneeling man).  So you can be off by 6" and easily hit the target.

When it get's interesting is at 250M.  The round had reached it's apogee and starting to drop, but it's around 10" high.  Again with a standard Army target (40" tall) you will still hit it if you use a Center-of-Mass hold.

The USMC has changed to the 36y initial crossover to get a true 300M zero (the Army's method still has the round 6" or 2moa high).  I'd suggest you visit this link Zeroing Methods and check out some of the articles.  There are charts on a connected page (HERE) that are easy to miss, but they will show you graphicaly what the round is doing.

Quoted: Forest, Forgot to add this.  The military zero takes into account being able to make adequate hits (for lack of a better term) on targets between zero and 300m.  On a military qualification range, the 50m target is a chest/head silouette and although you will be a little high at that range, you will not miss the target.  You will be center mass at 300m if zeroed properly.

With the Army method you WILL NEVER be zeroed properly at 300M, you will be high (but within tolorances for hitting a man sized target).

The sites on these guns and the zeroing techniques were developed for combat accuracy, not shooting one hole groups.

I'll agree the A2 sights were made for 'match shooting' but talk to ColdBlue and the USMC about that.  However the 50y IBSZ is a better combat zero because you CAN shoot those same targets to 300M, yet it gives you much better precision at typical combat distances (+/- 2.5" from muzzle to 225M or so).    Can't seem to hit Haji who is poking his head up at 100y?  Not a problem with the IBSZ - but you can easily send rounds high with the new* Army method.

*(I say 'new', because when I served we had M16A1s and had a nice flat 250M zero - very similar to the IBSZ).

Quoted: Man, my Bushmaster has been almost dead on everytime.  I hope that this problem will be resolved for you.  I just want to say, that my Bushmaster has been superb.

        Mine too .  Once you get it sorted out , you'll like the Bushy .

Tweak,

Why is this pinned over here when it sounds like a run of the mill Q&A for your section?  

I had the twisted barrel problem with a bushmaster upper I purchesed second handed and Bushmaster fixed it for me absolutely free.  I mailed it to them USPS Priority mail which was only half the cost of UPS.  I was able to track my shipment which arrived only a few days later.  It took Bushmaster about three or four days to fix it and they returned it to me via UPS which took about two weeks to get back to me.  UPS sucks.  Only problem I have with my upper is I don't like the purplish finish which Bushmaster would NOT fix.  I had no gripes at all paying shipping costs from my end to the Bushmaster plant.

Anyway, I think if you give Bushmaster a chance they'll fix a canted barrel problem.  The accuracy of my upper is excellent and I have no complaints with it now and I personally think any company can make a similiar mistake.  Actually my accuracy before the repair was excellent I just was at the extreme edge of my windage and long distance shots suffered.

Best wishes,
Wes

Quoted: I noticed after I replaced (did work myself) my original barrel with the horrid Mini-Y comp with the same BM barrel with Phantom my rifle shot better.   This thread probably explains why! Steve

I did the same and i got a better result after replaced with a 5 ports Phantom.

Quoted: I own a 20" Bushy and on my windage, its like 11-12 clicks to the left, and not so great accuracy. The barrel is an HBAR (I want a gov't profile) 1:9 chrome lined. Any thoughts whats doing this? I hear most AR owners have their windage set at center or near center (+ or - a few clicks). Can someone please shed some light on this for me?

I had the same problem with a new Bushmaster rifle I purchased over one year ago.  I was told by Bushmaster that the windage being within 13 clicks of dead center was within their acceptable tolerance.  They may find it acceptable, but I sure as heck don't.  They will correct the problem under warranty.

Many of the Bushmaster A2 configurations shoot really high.  I had to install an A3 sight to get my A2 rifle to zero at distances closer than 300 yards.  I found out from other Bushmaster owners, after I had already purchased my rifle, that this is also a common problem for Bushmaster.  

Once you have the warranty work completed, you may be happy with your rifle.  I know of a few people who have had good luck with their Bushmaster rifles from the day they purchased them.  

Personally, I won't purchase another Bushmaster product.

 

Quoted: Quoted: ...All bushmaster flat tops need the taller post to zero./ Pun, will you please spend some time with these guns before posting such drivel. I've got 3 bushy flattops NONE have needed a taller front sight post (rifle or carbine), and I know my buddy has several more and again had no need for a taller front sight pin.  Needing the taller front sight pin seems to be more the exception than the rule.

I do not have any hard data on the exact numbers of Bushmaster rifles requiring a taller front sight.  Including myself, I know of four Bushmaster rifle owners that had to install an A3 front sight on their A2 carbines and A2 20" barrel rifles.  I find that kind of unusual in an area with a population of less than 150,000 people.  Naturally the firearms community population is alot smaller in number.  

Yes, I have the exact same problem with one of my Bushmaster carbines.  That's too bad.  Is there a preferable torque to have on the barrel nut, not to be exceeded to prevent this problem?

Hey guys I feel for you because I am going thru the exact same problem now with Bushmaster and TWO rifles , yes TWO that I have with this trouble. Bought both of them from Discount Firearms here in Las Vegas- after finding out that both my front sights are tilted on my M4 style A3 uppers I called the shop back and their response was "What you expect me to do?" I wont be shopping with them again. Anyways....I had these two rifles since the June 2005 and I have only shot one gun once so far. They have been back to Bushmaster for repair. First time one gun came back fixed and then other one was still tilted and my 14.5 inch barrel was scratched up bad- it had shiny metallic spots on it. So another call to Bushmaster CS dept and back it went....a new barrel was installed and the front sight was still tilted. Keep in mind that Bushmaster was nice enough to pay for shipping back- 1st time was ground and the rest now have been 2nd day shipping. After the 2nd time back I decided to email the CS manager and also their senior gunsmith. No reply. Talked to another gunshop- and the owner knew the President of Bushmaster and gave me his direct number. I called Mr. Robert Dyke and left a msg on his voicemail friday. Come tuesday, monday was Columbus day I get a call from the CS manager saying Mr. Dyke said take care of me and Iam to receive a free upgrade- a V-match front site and a Yankee Hill flip up front sight free of charge. My upper is still at Bushmaster as I write this. Iam praying that this problem gets fixed once and for all this time as Iam really tired of packing my upper and shipping it at UPS and going to the range only to find that its tilted again cause the windage is off by alot and the sight looks tilted to the right in my Eotech window too. A batch of the front sights were out of spec. and the gas tube hole was drilled off center a bit thus creating a tilt to the right when it was put on and the gas tube was aligned straight with the sight.  Hopefully no one else has had a bad of a time as I have with both my guns. This is basically worst case scenario.  All in all Bushmaster has been pleasant to deal with esp the Customer service reps who were quick to send me a UPS call tag in the email so I can mail the upper back each time.  It's October now and Im still waiting....

P.S. Keep in mind that I had to have my gunsmith install and take off and install and take off and install the Knights RAS II for me. I feel kinda bought so I bought him some coffee and probably continue to do so from now on. Mike from Citadel never charged me.

My Armalite is zeroed 19 clicks left of center.  I sent them an email some months ago but I haven't had the opportunity to call them back to find out about having them fix it.  I need to do that soon, the rifle is almost a year old now.

Quality control seems to be lacking across most of the the whole firearms industry.

every BM I ever bought always gets cranked to the left. They stink. Even the dcm needs to go way left. I keep buying them because they are easy to get. I'll never learn. I have an LMT that I put an ARMS 40 sight on, it was almost dead on! Just needed elevation on the front post. BM's are junk, the chevy of AR's. If I sound bitter it's because I am

Quoted: Again...Bushmaster has a warranty...this is a free fix...why put up with it?  Just call them up, get an RMA (it's very easy) and sent it off.  It will come back perfectly centered.

Dragunov: it's not that easy- as you say. I sent mine back for the 3rd time already to get the front sight indexed properly. Sure the shipping was free....started out as ground service and made its way to 2nd day free, but it was not fixed yet. I had to ship in two uppers like this which I bought in April of 2005. Have not shot one of them yet because it has been shipped back so many times and the return times were around 4 weeks. I still havent played with my rifles yet like I intended to this summer. But I did get an email today saying it was fixed after their gunsmiths took it to the range with them and indexed the front sight on the spot which is now a flip-up YHM instead of the triangle one. By the time they got back UPS had already picked up so I have to wait till monday for it to ship out.

I too am experiencing the same problem.  New Bushy A2 20"er.  The first time I took it out, I had to crank my windage about 8 clicks to the left.  I fired several 3 round groups at 25 yards, center of target, tight group.  I fired several 3 round groups at 100 yards, and I was quite far off target with horrible "groups".  I headed home, figuring I had a shitty range day.  

I took my Bushy A3 flattop 16"er (which I've had for more than 3 years) out last week and shot  1.5" to 2.5" groups at 100 yards.  The rear sight was dead center like always.  

Today was my 2nd trip to the range w/ the new Bushy A2 20"er.  Same as the first time out, horrible results.  I will be calling BM on Monday.

I was curious if the difference in the length of the two barrels (16" vs. 20") would affect the shooter (i.e. familiarity with the FSB being closer or further from the rear sight).  

TIA

--VT

I to have this +10 condition, but on my partrolman's carbine. purchased in 2005.

I wonder if bushmaster will pay for a replacement barrel nut and pin?   I would like to do the work myself.

Thanks, Jeff

Quoted: I wonder if bushmaster will pay for a replacement barrel nut and pin?   I would like to do the work myself.

Why do you think you need a new barrel nut and/or indexing pin?

Same problem I had with my Patrolman's Carbine bought in April of 2005.  I'm assuming one of you guys on here have it now.  I returned it and got my money back from bushmaster, and it would not in the least suprise me if they turned around and re-sold it to someone else.  But hey why not, damn near still new.  It was back at the factory more than it was in my safe or at the range...

Quoted: Again...Bushmaster has a warranty...this is a free fixI had to pay shipping the first time it went back...why put up with it?  Just call them up, get an RMA (it's very easy) and gets even easier when you call the second, third, fourth time... and sent it off.  It will come back perfectly centered.still having the same problem but with blue loc-tite all over the FSB and front handguard cap and missing front taper pin after they try to re-tap the barrel from shifting the Front site base-or bushmaster terms (re-index sighting)

Bushmaster Customer Service- BIG 2 THUMBS DOWN HERE!!  Yeah, they are really nice and apologetic on the phone, tell you what you want to hear, promise to replace the parts, tell you this isn't their normal crafsmanship  But Buyer Beware, take a close look when you get your rifle back to see their "quality fix"  Easy you say...I say Not.  It is a big headache for something you payed $1000 for.  I can understand your going to have a bad apple now and then, but atleast fix it corretly after your made aware of the problem.  Customers should not have to send their rifle back a second time, let alone a third and fourth.    

Quoted: Funny, my Colt LE6920 shot striaght right out of the box.

Funny, Bushmaster supports your rights to keep and bear arms.
Stop hijacking the thread and go back to watching CNN. I'm trying to learn somthing.

Quoted: Hey guys I feel for you because I am going thru the exact same problem now with Bushmaster and TWO rifles , yes TWO that I have with this trouble. Bought both of them from Discount Firearms here in Las Vegas- after finding out that both my front sights are tilted on my M4 style A3 uppers I called the shop back and their response was "What you expect me to do?" I wont be shopping with them again. Anyways....I had these two rifles since the June 2005 and I have only shot one gun once so far. They have been back to Bushmaster for repair. First time one gun came back fixed and then other one was still tilted and my 14.5 inch barrel was scratched up bad- it had shiny metallic spots on it. So another call to Bushmaster CS dept and back it went....a new barrel was installed and the front sight was still tilted. Keep in mind that Bushmaster was nice enough to pay for shipping back- 1st time was ground and the rest now have been 2nd day shipping. After the 2nd time back I decided to email the CS manager and also their senior gunsmith. No reply. Talked to another gunshop- and the owner knew the President of Bushmaster and gave me his direct number. I called Mr. Robert Dyke and left a msg on his voicemail friday. Come tuesday, monday was Columbus day I get a call from the CS manager saying Mr. Dyke said take care of me and Iam to receive a free upgrade- a V-match front site and a Yankee Hill flip up front sight free of charge. My upper is still at Bushmaster as I write this. Iam praying that this problem gets fixed once and for all this time as Iam really tired of packing my upper and shipping it at UPS and going to the range only to find that its tilted again cause the windage is off by alot and the sight looks tilted to the right in my Eotech window too. A batch of the front sights were out of spec. and the gas tube hole was drilled off center a bit thus creating a tilt to the right when it was put on and the gas tube was aligned straight with the sight.  Hopefully no one else has had a bad of a time as I have with both my guns. This is basically worst case scenario.  All in all Bushmaster has been pleasant to deal with esp the Customer service reps who were quick to send me a UPS call tag in the email so I can mail the upper back each time.  It's October now and Im still waiting.... P.S. Keep in mind that I had to have my gunsmith install and take off and install and take off and install the Knights RAS II for me. I feel kinda bought so I bought him some coffee and probably continue to do so from now on. Mike from Citadel never charged me.

I hope that it all works out for you.  The staff at Citadel are good people.  One final note, though:  If you can, don't do business with Discount Firearms.  You can find better prices elsewhere and online and the staff out there are real assholes.

Oh I dont do business with them anymore. HELL NO. The day I bought my two ARs from them is the day I saw them sell a elderly man an AK 47- bulgarian made and had him shoot it without cleaning it at their indoor range. BOOM it went! The owner mike and anna didnt tell the man that would happen if you dont clean cosmoline out of the dang gun! I dont trust them with gun questions anymore after that one , not to mention the crappy way they treated me after I told them of the tilting of the front sight.

Tweak, could that be the reason that Bushmaster's taper pins are so hard for a lot of people to get out?

My first AR15 was a  Bushmaster Shorty AK bought back in 1998 or so.  It had an improperly staked gas key and an over torqued barrel.  Bushmaster made good on the rifle and fixed everything.  Unfortunately I sold the rifle in 2000 and miss it as it was my first AR!

Quoted: 8 clicks is well within tolerance, I prefer zero and take my mallet to the range with each new build but I wouldn't complain about 8 clicks on a factory BFI, esp considering some of the offsets seen otherwise.

+1

I've had anywhere between 8 clicks and 20 clicks off. -- A very easy fix with a mallet. My latest one is going to get zeroed tomorrow, as I ran out of time my last trip to the range -- it wasn't like the other one, as it takes a much harder blow to get things moving on it!

NO.


I have 4 Bushmasters.   Only 1 had the issue.

Tweak - When you fix the windage issues on Bushmasters do you remove the taper pins before smacking the FSB? Do you think it would help? Also, which way do the taper pins taper?

So if your barrel is over-torqued and it zeros way to the left the fix is to bend the front sight to compensate?    Can't you just pull the barrel and re-install?  I must be missing something...

I just did my first barrel install and it took 30 clicks left on the DCH to zero it so apparently I over-torqued it.  It sure didn't feel like I put that much torque on it.  Are AR barrels really that sensitive to this?