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Posted: 10/29/2005 12:57:49 PM EDT
[#1]
I've been considering this myself for my next project. The nice thing about Duracoat is that it can be applied over existing parkerized finishes. In speaking to the good people at Lauer, it sounds like you need to sand blast (not bead blast) other types of finish. Additionally, you have a variety of application methods available. You should really give the guys at Lauer a call. They can help you decide what works best for your particular application.
For what it's worth though, a lot of auto body shops will sand blast your parts for a reasonable price. In my case, they will let me use their sand blaster and I donate the remaining media for their use. My next project will be duracoat. |
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Posted: 10/29/2005 2:33:23 PM EDT
[#2]
Well..........first you need an oven big enough to put yourself in..................
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Posted: 10/29/2005 2:55:27 PM EDT
[#3]
MolyKote is easier to use, minimal needs an oven, propane torch, cheapest air brush you can buy, supply of compressed air. Sand/Bead blasting and parkerizing steel works best. Can have a one color project done in a couple of hours.
Durakote is a 2 part paint, if you mix too much it's wasted. Will dry without heat oven given days of curing time, probably goes on thicker. I do not have the patience for Durakote. |
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Posted: 10/29/2005 2:57:30 PM EDT
[#4]
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Posted: 10/29/2005 3:12:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Damn, damn, damn...too slow. 
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Posted: 10/29/2005 3:33:02 PM EDT
[#6]
Thanks.... Im going to start with a couple of mags to see how I do...
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Posted: 10/29/2005 3:58:59 PM EDT
[#7]
duracoat goes on as thin as you want it to. It can go on VERY thin.
 after several layers of DC, you can still read the SAFE and FIRE clear as day. It's not like spraypaint.  Stick- do you know which goes on thinner, DC or Molyresin? I'm getting  of mixing in the hardener... |
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Posted: 10/29/2005 5:26:37 PM EDT
[#8]
Norrells.
I took this info off the Norrells website, just so people don't think I'm making numbers up.... molyresin.com/molyresin_specs.asp
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Posted: 10/29/2005 6:00:51 PM EDT
[#9]
Wow Stick that stuff is thin! I thought DuraCoat was thin... |
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Posted: 10/29/2005 6:12:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Its one of the reasons I like it so much.
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Posted: 10/29/2005 9:32:24 PM EDT
[#11]
I'm still debating which one I want to use. I've done spray & bake finishes on handguns, but if the oven isn't big enough to handle the part, then a non-baking option is the only one left. Alumahyde seems to work well, but the curing time is supposed to be a week or more. Duracoat cures a lot faster.
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Posted: 10/29/2005 9:10:52 PM EDT
[#12]
no, it doesn't without the oven. Duracoat continues to cure over it's lifetime or so I've heard. Concrete actually cures a little more each day as well. That's why really old concrete is hard to bust up, not because they made things better back in the old days... DC will cure fast in a 300 degree oven, that's for sure. They make a clear coat too which is something I'm thinking about giving a try. Stickman- what do you suppose would hold up to abuse better inside the frame rails of a 1911, MR or DC?? |
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Posted: 10/30/2005 7:00:28 AM EDT
[#13]
I've used Norells and been rather happy with the results on 1911 rails. Obviously, any finish, including the original will wear if you actually shoot it enough, but the Norrells has worked well. 
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Posted: 10/30/2005 7:44:39 AM EDT
[#14]
I just finished my first rifle with Norrells this past Friday. It was an Ak-74 Tantal. The Norrells finish is so damn thin it was almost hard to apply. It took me 4 hours and several coats of Norrells to get the finish dark enough to suit me. Overall I would say that Norrells is an awsome finish just a PITA to apply.
I finished a couple of Ak's in alumahide II a couple of months ago. The finish is nice but very thick. Almost like trying to spray honey from a can. In the future I'll use Norrellls but I'll make sure I have a whole day to work with it and only one rifle to coat at a time. |
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Posted: 10/30/2005 9:58:58 AM EDT
[#15]
I would think anything that goes on that thin can keep you from getting an even finish- especially if you are trying to go over several different shades (of black perhaps) with one new shade.
Where's the best place to get the molyresin? |
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Posted: 10/30/2005 10:09:11 AM EDT
[#16]
Fix your sprayer settings, the problem isn't the Norrells, its the application. If it took you 4 hours, there is something seriously wrong with what you are doing. I would recommend you stop and start figuring out the problem. I recoat dissimilar colors with 3-4 coats (black to tan, bare steel to black etcc) and have zero problems. What sort of air were you pushing? |
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Posted: 10/30/2005 10:10:40 AM EDT
[#17]
No, its very easy unless your airbrush setting are WAY out of whack. See the above comment, I change colors all the time without any issues. www.molyresin.com |
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Posted: 10/30/2005 10:14:26 AM EDT
[#18]
tag for future study
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Posted: 10/30/2005 2:28:47 PM EDT
[#19]
What do you mean fix your spayer settings? As for air it's from a compresor at 80psi. Do you think Im spraying to much air and too little Molyresin? |
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Posted: 10/30/2005 4:36:09 PM EDT
[#20]
Yes I think that is what he is saying, Grey Molykote does take a few coats to cover, I have shot silver over black and got it in maybe 3 coats. when the metal is warmed with a torch it only takes 30sec between each coat or so, I don't see how you could have taken 4 hrs., It dries to the touch in half a minute.
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Posted: 10/30/2005 5:22:51 PM EDT
[#21]
I had a lot of different comments I was going to make, but I will simply say this. I spray at 30-35 psi. I wrote up an article, and while I don't consider myself to be the Norrells expert by any stretch, you really may want to take a look at it. I think you had your sandblasting settings confused with your airbrush settings. |
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Posted: 10/30/2005 5:38:41 PM EDT
[#22]
Thanks for the advice. I never could find a recommendation for PSI settings of the airbrush in the Norrells instructions. The next time I spray I'll turn it down to 30-35psi. Maybe it won’t take all day to coat one rifle.
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Posted: 10/30/2005 5:57:48 PM EDT
[#23]
You won't waste as much product, it will coat evenly and easily, and your times will be very short for recoating. I'm glad we figured out the problem, the next time you do it, you will be in for a happy surprise.
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Posted: 10/30/2005 8:07:53 PM EDT
[#24]
what do you use to sandblast? I'm just interested in enough to get any teflon off of the surface and not enough to dig down into the aluminum...
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Posted: 10/30/2005 8:21:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Someone with GOOD experience in blasting aluminum needs to give an answer. I can quote numbers, but I don't like commenting on something unless I'm comfortable with it myself.
Blasting off the teflon, but leaving the anodizing is certainly possible, but you would want to be PDC. |
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Posted: 10/30/2005 10:08:24 PM EDT
[#26]
Stick, you need to put together that refinishing guide for the 1911 again. I have some 1911 refinishing I have to do soon.
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Posted: 10/31/2005 6:00:25 AM EDT
[#27]
I do have some Duracoat, but never tried it, you have to mix two components, and then it takes a week or so to cure, just don't have time for that kinda thing. Plus, it is not thermal setting, which means it will not hold up to harsh chemicals. Mark AKA gunplumber has forgotten more then I will ever know about finishing guns and he addresses Duracoat in this thread:
www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105072 |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 6:17:05 AM EDT
[#28]
VERY interesting and VERY informative. I'm definitely going with the molyresin. Sounds like I should buy some brake cleaner also!!
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Posted: 10/31/2005 6:25:34 AM EDT
[#29]
I've used both Norrels and Duracoat and I prefer Norrels. Norrels is easier to apply and goes on thinner. I also find that Norrels stands up to heat better so If you're doing a barrel, I'd recommend Norrels.
With that said, Duracoat is also an awesome product and you won;t go wrong if you decide to use it. As for the guy who tool 4 hours to apply the Norrels, you are definitely doing something wrong. For a an AR, your actual application time should be measured in minutes, not hours. Bomber |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 6:56:19 AM EDT
[#30]
My MolyResin experiences:
have at this point applied to a scattergun and a few other individual parts. There are a couple ways to screw it up, but mostly its not that hard. equipment used: *b33 engine degreaser *testors hobby airbrush and compressor set *rubber gloves *coat hangers and wooden blocks (for suspending things in the oven) *mask and goggles for painting in *masking tape *moly resin and that's all ya need. i managed to get all the supplies including the moly resin for well under a hundred bucks. took me most of one afternoon to do that scattergun, but a lot of that was setup and degreasing/masking the shotgun. other than that, pretty straight forward and easy. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 8:03:02 AM EDT
[#31]
I think what gunplumber wrote was a little biased against DC. It's a fact that it's true name is Polane-T created by Sherwin Williams. I think that he decided that after he found that out that LCW is just trying to dupe people into believing it's something it's not, which is hardly the case.
LCW thought there was a market for a 2-part firearms finish and found the Polane-T product made by SW and now tints it and sells it for firearms refinishing. I think gunplumber just has an attitude is all. It's not like the stuff wasn't made to coat metals and isn't super strong and durable. Just because SW looked at a bigger picture when they created it, doesn't mean it can't be used on small items like firearms. You don't NEED heat to cure it but it CAN be used to CURE IT in 3 hours or less!! Having that option is pretty damn nice. I wish I could buy a smaller quanity of NMR to try out on a few mags before I buy 8 oz which is enough to do 5 rifles. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 8:27:06 AM EDT
[#32]
8 oz is not enough to do 5 rifles, but you can probably do 3.
DC is not a thermal cure just because it can be heated, its not the same thing. Norrells is $23 for 8 oz including shipping. Lauer/ SW DC is $17 & shipping which is roughly $5-7 ($22-23) for 4 oz. Granted, I'm guessing at the above shipping costs, and I'm sure someone can give me an exact amount, but it still shows that you are getting more product for less. Take that and make it into larger units where you money goes farther for your product amount.... Norrells Quart- $50 shipped Lauer/ SW DC- $90 plus shipping Norrells Gallon (including mixing 4 different quarts)- $150 shipped Lauer/ SW DC- one color only no option for assorted colors- $320 plus shipping. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 8:28:06 AM EDT
[#33]
I have talked to Steve a couple of time in person about Duracoat, and he told me that it will not cure thermally. Meaning you can't just pop it in the oven and cure it in a few hours. But Steve did tell me that it will cure to a point in the oven, enough to handle it and such. Think Steve said that at the time they were doing rifles for DSA and that they baked them in order to assemble and get them out the door (info is four years old).
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Posted: 10/31/2005 8:29:08 AM EDT
[#34]
This past weekend I attempted my first re-finish on two M14 mags.
The first mag, I washed it in soap and water, then stuck it in the oven at 170 degrees(lowest setting) and then sprayed it Tan MR. After it was dry (about 20 minutes), I stuck it in the oven for an hour on 300 degrees. After it cooled, I took some acetone to it and nothing came off. I thought, cool it worked. Well about 5 minutes later, I turned the mag over and noticed a small area of finish that flaked off. I took my rag and rubbed it and more started to flake off. At this point, I knew I did something wrong. First, I thought my oven temp was off, but that turned out to be ok. Then I realized that I forgot to degrease it before I put it in the oven AND I forgot to use my gloves. So I figured there was still some oils on the mag that caused the weak finish. So I started again. Washed it with soap and water, degreased it and handled with gloves, then painted it. This time the overall finish looked much better, but it still flaked (a very tiny bit) on the feed lip when I loaded up 20 rounds. Should this happen? Also, how do yall do multiple coats? Do you heat the part up, coat it, let it dry, then heat it again, then do another coat, etc.? Or do you heat it, coat it, let it dry, then coat again, etc.? I still have a few mags to play with until I get this right. Once I get it right, I want to do my Kimber TLE/RLII in either all tan (except hammer, trigger, safety, etc.) or two toned black slide and OD frame. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 8:59:59 AM EDT
[#35]
Smooth surfaces are not going to take the finish very well. If your mags are heavily worn, or had been blued, your lack of surface prep is going to continue to cause you problems. I would guess that it needs to be blasted or park'd to work as well as it should. If you are talking about a tiny area flaking, I would tell you that is a problem in that area, but without having more info, there is no way for me to know for certain. Regarding multiple coats and drying, it sounds like you've got a problem in your application. Preheat the item, spray a LIGHT coat, and then reheat it. A hairdryer will work fine, and so will a heatgun. Spray the item again, reheat, and spray a third coat. The finish should be drying as soon as it hits the surface, and at no time should you start to see a gloss, heavy finish, or sheen. You spray, its dry as it hits the surface.... there is NO WAITING for it to dry. Along with the possible surface prep issue, we've got to get you spraying thin, light, multiple coats with it drying in between. This will make a massive difference in durability. I think the covers everything, let me know if I missed something. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 9:15:16 AM EDT
[#36]
If you're doing it correctly, this won't happen. If you have properely de-greased, preheated and applied a thin coat, it will dry on contact. I've done a ton of stuff (rifles, pistols, shotgun and mags) and have never had any of the issues you describe. Typically I use brake cleaner to degrease but I've also used soap and water. Did you shake the molycoat very well before you red to apply it? At what temperature are you preheating? Bomber |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 9:36:38 AM EDT
[#37]
+1 if the piece to be finished was preheated in the oven, the NMR should be dry as soon as it hits the hot metal... it's pretty amazing. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 10:48:40 AM EDT
[#38]
I pre-heated the M14 mags (parked, I think) at 300 degrees. I think I need to invest in a heat gun, because by the time I was finished spraying on one coat, the mag was not hot to the touch. And I use non-chlorinated brake cleaner as a degreaser. My second mag was properly prepped except for keeping the part hot. I think that is my problem.
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Posted: 10/31/2005 10:54:32 AM EDT
[#39]
The preheat stage is not necessary for adhesion, I have skipped that step for several years now.
My experience with adhesion problems is that they are cause by contaminations, or the surface is to smooth. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 11:39:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Once again, I am not getting the results you are. I've done about (8) M14 mags for a friend. We pre-heated to 200deg (lowest my oven would go) and I spray them and by the time I'm done with a coat, the mags are still hot. How long is it taking you to spray a mag? Takes me less than 2 minutes for a light coat. Bomber |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 12:34:34 PM EDT
[#41]
I agree, but the finishing goes so much quicker that for me it is worth doing. I don't use an oven for preheating, I use a heat gun or hairdryer to warm the surface. Preheating keeps the finish with a flat look, as well as aiding in ease of recoating. It is certainly not required, and if you are familiar with the product and what you are doing, it can be avoided. I still preheat for the finish and time savings it gives me. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 1:08:35 PM EDT
[#42]
How good is Norrell's adhesion to phosphate finishes? Can it be applied after degreasing without other prep? I've got a Walther P1 that seems to have a green MR finish in it's future. Also, what about prep for AR lower parts (bolt release, mag release, etc)?
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Posted: 10/31/2005 1:23:03 PM EDT
[#43]
It takes me a good while to spray a mag. I must be very slow or I am doing something very wrong. Thought I would mention that I have used half of the bottle of MR Tan on two mags. I really think the Testors airbrush is throwing out way too much paint and I can't figure out how to adjust that. There appears to be an adjustable nozzle, but opening and closing it doesn't seem to make a difference. I think I am going to take it over to a friends house and use his professional airbrush and compressor instead of the Testors kit. Also, if you part is smooth, then how do you refinish it? Does anyone use sandblasting to prep the surface? |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 1:52:19 PM EDT
[#44]
Anyone try soda blasting? A friend of mine who works in a body shop uses plain old baking soda to strip paint from car bodies without harming the underlying metal. This might be the ticket for removing teflon without damaging the anodizing underneath. Another option for finishing aluminum parts (though less durable than the hardcoat ano) is the decorative color anodizing. I have had great success anodizing paintball markers with a hobby anodizing kit. pic of anodizing done on my hobby kit
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Posted: 10/31/2005 2:03:47 PM EDT
[#45]
half the airbrush bottle, or half the 8oz bottle of NMR? 'cuz you should be able to do one light coat of each with what's in the airbrush and have some left over, assuming your Testors brush has the 1/4oz feed bottle. And the brush adjustment on the inexpensive Testor's brush makes a big difference in volume, but not spray pattern width. You change that by adjusting the angle of the feed nozzle to the air nozzle. More perpendicular=wider pattern. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 4:59:50 PM EDT
[#46]
double action airbrushes are the way to go. you can adjust air flow and volume of media separately.
I think I'm going to start trying NMR... |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 8:20:42 PM EDT
[#47]
Half an 8oz bottle. Looks like I need to do some adjusting. The only problem is my kit came with zero instructions so I have no idea what to do. Can someone with the Testors kit scan or email me the instructions? When the airbrush nozzle is closer to the paint feed does that increase or decrease paint volume? |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 9:35:17 PM EDT
[#48]
Stop spraying Norrells, and start spraying water. Its cheap, and you can see how your spray pattern is adjusted. Make sure you are spraying at around 30-35 psi if you are running off a compressor.
Spray water onto cardboard to view your spray pattern easier. |
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Posted: 10/31/2005 11:54:22 PM EDT
[#49]
I use acetone to check my spray pattern. |
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Posted: 11/1/2005 6:49:41 AM EDT
[#50]
Acetone is nice because you don't need to dry everything, but its more expensive.
Water is nice because its cheap, but you need to ensure there is NO water left when you are spraying Norrells. |
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