Greetings,
                  I'm doing some research on putting together the parts to make a M16/M16A1 carbine.  I'm not going for full historical authenticity, just trying to get the Vietnam-esque look with the handling of a Dissipator.

       Current plan calls for putting a Busmaster 16" M4-profile Dissy barrel onto an M16 or A1 upper, triangle handguards, 3-prong FS, and drop it on a Stag Arms lower with Stubby buttstock.  

       If you were building such a project, would you use a M16 "Slabside" upper, or A1 upper, and why?  The Slabside would be more distinctive, but I figure the forward-assist was retained from A1 to A4 for a good reason.  I seem to recall occasionally using the FA when I was issued an M16A2, primarily for closing the bolt after a brasscheck.  

       This piece is not solely a range toy, but will be my primary rifle, and I might start taking it to 3-gun matches once I get my IDPA skills locked on.  I'm just a bit concerned that, in the middle of match or in an emergency situation (God forbid), I'll be stuck with my bolt .25" out of battery, and no way to shove it home.

       Your suggestions most appreciated.  If I ever get all the pieces I'm assembling nailed together, I'll post up a report.  Take care,  -MV

If you ever anticipate using it for defense, you should have a FA.

Buy the book:
"The Black Rifle"
it's well worth the
investment, and a
wonderful education.

Quoted: If you ever anticipate using it for defense, you should have a FA.

...or Wolf

eject the round and use a fresh one.  You lose more time fing with the FA than to just eject the round. fa  can make the jam worse than better.  dosent really matter as if you get a jamin a stage that stage is down the tubes.

Ever press check your weapon or need to chamber a round quietly?  The FA still has a purpose.

I ran an archive search on THR, and a similar issue was discussed in the past.  Just like here:  some folks thought that simpler is better, and the FA was added unnecessarily.

Others said that it was a good addition, primarily for brasschecking (presschecking).

However, someone counter-argued that you can use the pinky or thumb to close the bolt after a brasscheck.  I'd never even thought of trying that, and don't have an AR currently (M1 Garand is my current practical rifle).  Can one easily close a bolt by finger without using the FA?  If so, does the FA serve any purpose besides shoving a round into a gunk filled chamber (which won't take the next round either)?

Nothing against the FA per-se, just trying to simplify, simplify.

   -MV

Use your thumbnail in the dark, when its cold, when you are wet and can't feel your fingers....

If its a fun-gun, it really doesn't matter.  

The consensus appears strongly pro-FA on this board, slightly anti-FA on The High Road.

I'm inclined to go towards pro-FA at the moments, as I'm a bit leery of the slabside.  Then again, I was leery of cocked-and-locked 1911 until I got used to it.  I'm thinking that I'll get an A1 upper, and try to never use the FA.  If after sufficient shooting time, exposure to gunginess, etc., I've still managed to resolve all bolt issues w/ finger instead of FA, I'll go for slabside on the next project.

Logistical issues also incline me towards FA at the moment:  I emailed Bushmaster, and they quoted me $505 on a complete A1 upper with M4-profile 1:9 Dissy barrel, threaded for FS.  They also said the such an upper would be a genuine BM upper, not a parts-piece, and thus would fall under BM warranty.  So for $20 less than an HBAR A2 Dissy upper, I can get the exact components I want on a brand-new brand-name upper.  Just need to add the 3-prong and triangular handguards.

Since buying a $369 CDNN Colt SP1 upper and cutting it down would run me at least that much by the time that I bought the bolt system and paid someone to cut and enlarge the gas system, I figure BM's price is pretty reasonable, especially since I get a 1:9 barrel.

Anything I'm missing here?  I realize that my finished piece would not be even slightly historically accurate, but I'm just trying to get a practical rifle that's more distinctive than a BM Patrolman, but sacrifices little/nothing in actual use.  Plus, even using all new parts, my rifle should end up costing less than the $799 BM Patrolman from CDNN.

      -MV

Get what you want, in the big scheme of things, most people will never use a F/A, my problem is that I've had to use it numerous times.  

If you can get what you want, directly from Bushmaster, I think you would be crazy not to.

I was going to simply buy the upper and drop it on a Stag lower, then add a Stubby stock.

But now that I look at it, a Stag built lower would run me $145, add $15 for shipping = $160.  Buying a Stubby or Entry stock would set me back another $60 or so, plus shipping.  Total of $225-ish.

For $275 I can buy a new BM lower with Stubby stock.  I need to puzzle out whether it's worth $50 to have a completely BM-made and warranteed rifle.  I'd imagine that would increase the resale, should I ever decide to sell it.

Not quite as adventurous as buying a used Colt slabside upper, screwing on a cut-down SP1 barrel, and adding a Republic of Ghana issue skeleton stock onto a lower built in "a country that no longer exists", but for not much more cash I can get a completely stock BM product.  Since this is to be my primary rifle for both casual competition and contingency, I'm tempted to drop that extra D-note.

Does BM cut me a little price break if I buy the Upper and Lower together?  That is, will I pay $505 upper + $275 lower = $780 rifle?  Or will the price be a smidge lower or higher if BM slaps the two together before mailing it to me?

    -MV

Quoted: Ever press check your weapon or need to chamber a round quietly?  The FA still has a purpose.

You can press check by confirming that the feed position on the magazine has switched to the other side, and if you want to chamber a round quietly you can push your thumb against the carrier and that will seat it forward.

Come to think of it, none of the manipulations I was tought involve the forward assist. Even the IADs don't involve it.

I'm SLIGHTLY anti-FA.  The main reason is that I can NEVER imagine an instance in which I would use it.  Immediate action if you have a "Misfire" in an "Emergency" as somebody put it is to reseat the magazine with a smack, rack the carrier, and pull the trigger again.  In any emergency situation, the forward assist will do one of two things:

1) it will jam the rifle even further

2) it will cause a delay if your jam was a stovepipe or double-feed, or failure to feed

The only place that an FA can help are two situations.  First, the gun doesn't go fully into battery.  This is usually caused by a fouled chamber or VERY dirty gun.  SMACKING the forward assist will either fix the problem so it can come up next round or two rounds later or it will jam the gun hopelessly.  The Second situation is the so-called, "Press check."  Now, sure, it will help you close a tight bolt quietly, but so will your thumb.  I've NEVER press-ckecked an AR-15.  Why would I?  I know when the chamber is loaded because I put the round there.  If my gun is sitting for long periods of time, the chamber should be empty anyways.

I live in Alaska and shoot with gloves almost exclusively 6 months out of the year.  Even my fat fingers with gloved hands can ease the bolt forward if needed.

Something that wasn't mentioned was the situation where you have to submerge the weapon.  This requires that you tip the barrel forward when out of the water and pull the bolt back to break the seal and let the water run out.  I suppose the Forward assist would be prudent to quickly ensure the gun is back in action as in a "Press-Check." Actually, that's the ONLY situation where I think the FA has a utility.  I'd still use the ejection port though.  You have to close the port cover anyhow so your hand's already in that area.  Push forward on the bolt while you flip the cover closed.  One less action!

One last thing.  Duty guns with more than 20 rounds through them should close by spring pressure in almost all situations.

Quoted: Quoted: Ever press check your weapon or need to chamber a round quietly?  The FA still has a purpose. You can press check by confirming that the feed position on the magazine has switched to the other side, and if you want to chamber a round quietly you can push your thumb against the carrier and that will seat it forward. Come to think of it, none of the manipulations I was tought involve the forward assist. Even the IADs don't involve it.

Never done it real world when you are cold, wet, gloved up in the dark waiting and hoping you aren't going to have to take a human life have you?  My comments are based off things that I've been done first hand, not stories from people I met.  I'm not giving you a hard time here, but I'm not impressed with what you have not been taught in a class.  

You will probably never need a Forward assist, the thread originator may never, 99.99% of the people on this board aren't going to understand, but it doesn't mean others won't it for real.

BadgerArms,

I know there are places that still teach using the FA in clearance drills, but I'm not a huge fan of it.  There are pros and cons, but I think the negatives outweigh the positive attributes.  Sometimes you've got to know when to just transition.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ever press check your weapon or need to chamber a round quietly?  The FA still has a purpose. You can press check by confirming that the feed position on the magazine has switched to the other side, and if you want to chamber a round quietly you can push your thumb against the carrier and that will seat it forward. Come to think of it, none of the manipulations I was tought involve the forward assist. Even the IADs don't involve it. Never done it real world when you are cold, wet, gloved up in the dark waiting and hoping you aren't going to have to take a human life have you?  My comments are based off things that I've been done first hand, not stories from people I met.  I'm not giving you a hard time here, but I'm not impressed with what you have not been taught in a class.   You will probably never need a Forward assist, the thread originator may never, 99.99% of the people on this board aren't going to understand, but it doesn't mean others won't it for real.

I respect your experience sir, but I just have never encountered a situation where a FA was better than the IADs I have been taught. If a round is deformed, tap-rack-bang will clear it without even moving your dominant hand. If theres a Type 3/doublefeed then the FA is useless anyway. I was taught to press check by dropping the mag and feeling for the feed position. This technique works for me, even in the dark.

What is the use of the forward assist? If anyone can come up with a genuine need for one, I'll definitely consider it.  Aside from certain press checking techniqes, chambering a round quietly and forcing rounds that probably shouldn't be fired into the chamber, the use of the FA eludes me.

Does an FA hurt anything if it is not being used......No
Does an FA help in a very minute set of circumstances.....Yes

I believe it is worthwhile. Gross motor skills are usable on a FA.
Fingernail/pinky etc.....on the BC through the ejection port is not a gross motor skill.

If your weapon gets nasty, grimy, gooey, sandy and sludgy you may need it more than you think.

That is why most LE training doesn't address it much....Most LEs don't run into a rain soaked, sand dropped, mud slopped, weapons.

I am former military and trained to use it during failures (SPORTS).  

I am currently an LE instructor for rifle and we tell folks what it is used for and train with it very little because we use good ammo in a clean, well maintained, weapon. That weapon,  in absolute worst case scenario, might be shot for a couple magazines worth. Most LE's don't carry more than 4 mags even in a tactical scenario in my experience.  Military engagements might require a soldier to shoot a couple thousand.

RANGERS>>>RANGE>>>>OFFICERS......
My opinion.

How do you train to use teh FA.  When does the Grunt get to use it and why?  Not sure I ever remember being taught to use it.  Of course... I'm a ZOOMIE and we don't have such silly things on our training weapons.  

A FA is useful when your one and only weapon, that has been dragged through who knows what, has shot more ammo than you can remember, done it all in a panic situation, all since you had a chance to clean it, starts to slow down and occasionally doesn't completley chamber the next round. The foward assist may just be the one thing that helps keep you alive.
Pat
0-1-25

The army teaches/taught one stoppage drill. It is not a terrible drill, but it is slow. I think it has merits when you are expecting your teammates to be shooting at the same threats you have while you mess with your rifle.

Slap up on the magazine to assure it is seated.
Pull on the charging handle to clear the bad round
Observe the chamber to see if things have cleared.
Return (let the charging handle go)
Tap the forward assist
Shoot!  

i vote for no forward assist

Quoted: Ever press check your weapon or need to chamber a round quietly?  The FA still has a purpose.

I think the silent chambering of a round is a prime use of the FA.  I don't picture a confrontation happening any time soon but I think the need to chamber a round silently would be more apt to arise than a round not chambering altogether and thus requiring the FA.


- BG