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Posted: 12/1/2005 11:06:37 PM EDT
 this is the second carrier I've worked on from the same vendor in two days and the second one that the keys have come loose in less than 1000 rounds. Staking like this DOES NOT SECURE the head of the screw it only manages to damage the head of the screw enough to keep a wrench from fitting it. There is a reason the screw heads are striated along their exterior, stake the key INTO the striations. You can see the misalined stake marks on top of the key and screw heads here  the screws (like the previous one) were not even finger tight when I checked them. Stake your carriers this way  this is the easiest method of which I know  if you work on ARs and don't have a vise you are a NOGO, buy one of the cheap Chinese $19 ones from Harbor Freight or whoever is local to you. There is no excuse, it is a manadatory tool for even a would be AR wrench. Get on it. Stake tool is homemade, ground on a belt sander from the stub end of a busted 1/16" pin punch.  There is no excuse for shoddy workmanship, people's lives are at risk with every sloppy build. This is my lame attempt at being subtle, I know the vendor to be a good guy on the advice of those who know him. He gets my benefit of the doubt - for now. |
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Posted: 12/1/2005 11:23:10 PM EDT
[#1]
Is that bolt CMT?
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Posted: 12/1/2005 11:24:45 PM EDT
[#2]
the bolt and carrier are unmarked
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Posted: 12/2/2005 12:29:39 AM EDT
[#3]
tack welding works wonders!
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Posted: 12/2/2005 12:53:29 AM EDT
[#4]
Are you hitting straight down or at a 45* angle?
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Posted: 12/2/2005 1:07:35 AM EDT
[#5]
Olympic finally got theirs to stay on!?!?!? 
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Posted: 12/2/2005 2:37:34 AM EDT
[#6]
AMEN!!!! |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 2:41:57 AM EDT
[#7]
in the side staking photo? don't worry about number degrees or angles just displace key metal into the heads of the key screws. even if you hit the key at a perfect oblique it'll only push where there is the least resistance so the stakes often come out angled. at least having to pull the keys gives me a chance to lap the key to the carrier, both were pretty rough. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 4:25:47 AM EDT
[#8]
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Posted: 12/2/2005 5:46:18 AM EDT
[#9]
Now you got me looking at my Bushmaster carrier..
Good info Tweak! |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 5:52:41 AM EDT
[#10]
Good advice Tweak! I never understood staking from the top. I staked my latest un-staked carrier in the same fashion as you show above. My staking tool was an old chisel that I ground the tip flat.
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Posted: 12/2/2005 5:53:02 AM EDT
[#11]
O.K. Newb here. What is staking and what purpose does it serve?
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Posted: 12/2/2005 5:59:12 AM EDT
[#12]
Staking is forcing some of the metal onto/into the surface of the key/bolt/nut whatever to prevent it from backing out. In the case of the gas key, if that puppy comes undone while in operation you will have a rapid deconstruction of your rifle. It will probably be a significant event in your life.
The receiver end plate/sling plate on the back of CAR/M4s is staked into the castle nut to prevent it from walking out. ETA because I assumed you had a basis of knowledge, which you indicated you didn't: to stake something you place a staking tool (Tweaky uses a ground down punch as shown) onto the upper side of the carrier key (in the above example) adjacent to the key screws and whack it smartly with a hammer. this forces some of the metal from the carrier into direct contact with the striations on the outside of the key screw, preventing it from backing out. Sorry to leave that out. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 6:00:03 AM EDT
[#13]
tag
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Posted: 12/2/2005 6:03:51 AM EDT
[#14]
Tweaky:
Are you going to sticky this in the troubleshooting forum? I think it would help a lot of people who don't know what staking is or how to do it correctly. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 6:06:37 AM EDT
[#15]
Actually, rather then hammering on the thing at all, I prefer to use a specially modified set of bolt cutters. The jaws are cut back so when the handles are closed, it squeezes the key just the right amount, equally on both sides. If you look at a Colt bolt carrier, it appears they are using a similar type of tool.
Tony Rumore Tromix Corp |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 6:09:06 AM EDT
[#16]
/*
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Posted: 12/2/2005 6:37:51 AM EDT
[#17]
Try different mags and slings!
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Posted: 12/2/2005 7:06:55 AM EDT
[#18]
A guy at a class had a fixture he made that would fit over the key and had bolts on either side that would push tabs into the key in the same manner and your bolt cutters. I though that was pretty slick. Your idea is sweet also. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 7:12:19 AM EDT
[#19]
+1. Better, more consistent control (although it is usually more fun to smack things  )
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Posted: 12/2/2005 7:17:16 AM EDT
[#20]
Tweak, your pictures make my eyes bleed, but its a good reminder that people should be checking their staking when they pick up a new/ used AR15.
Here is a picture of a properly staked carrier that I just picked up. Three guesses what company.....  PS- I confess I like the picture of staking in the vise, that is going to save some aggravation for first time stakers!! |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 7:29:01 AM EDT
[#21]
Tweak,
Well Done! Timely too. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 7:32:44 AM EDT
[#22]
tag
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Posted: 12/2/2005 7:37:11 AM EDT
[#23]
I actually made an audible laugh after reading that.  Thanks stick, I needed that. ETA: Just went and looked at all my carriers. All are crimped like the Colt pictured above. Or it might be an LMT; my Colt and LMT carriers have the identical crimp in the carriers. My Armalite AR10 carrier has the same crimps, but they are no where near as pronounced as the Colt LMT ones. Actually, it looks like all mine are crimped and none are staked. By crimped I mean the metal is squeezed into the bolt head instead of struck. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 7:37:51 AM EDT
[#24]
Great info
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Posted: 12/2/2005 7:48:53 AM EDT
[#25]
Oly? ASA? Hesse?  I have to say, almost every carrier I've ever seen has had the "top staking".  (And I've had more than one come loose.)
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Posted: 12/2/2005 8:09:02 AM EDT
[#26]
I wonder what type of slotted screwdriver they used to
 stake that gas key???I have never staked a gas key, but I bet I could have done a better job then that!!! Even red locktite would have been better!!! |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 8:25:08 AM EDT
[#27]
Does CMT properly stake their enhanced carriers? How in the hell do you stake the receiver extension of a collapsable stock to the casle nut? I installed the stock myself so I want to make sure I've done it properly. ...or are you referring to the keyway cut into the threads? Thanks!!!
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Posted: 12/2/2005 8:43:53 AM EDT
[#28]
Your staking the end plate, not the extension. The castle nut should have some cuts in the forward edge. Just put the staking tool on the end plate at one of the cuts and stake. The TM should have the full procedure for you. Or you can go with loctite, or you can go with it as is. Depends on how comfortable you are. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 9:09:08 AM EDT
[#29]
Thanks man...every pic I've seen of people's AR have the cuts in the castle nut to the rear. Are you saying they should be forward? How do you remove the castle nut after it has been staked? I'll consider blue loctite if you feel it's adiquate. I torq'd the hell out of it thinking it would be good.
 The TM???
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Posted: 12/2/2005 9:10:30 AM EDT
[#30]
Blue Locktite works very well on the castle nut; almost too well sometimes, so go ahead and use a single-point sling plate the first time!
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Posted: 12/2/2005 9:22:15 AM EDT
[#31]
There are cuts on both sides. The ones of the staking are smaller and less frequent. That is the side that should be against the endplate.
Dremel works  . Then again if you plan on chaning the receiver plate often just go with LocTite.
Lets see if I can do this from memory TM 9-1005-319-23&P "Direct Support and Unit Maintenance Manual" otherwise known as the -23 You can download it free from this site (click on the Information button and look in the Downloads area). |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 9:26:16 AM EDT
[#32]
Thanks guys, got -10 & -23 already. I'll read up on em. My castle nut only has the cuts in the rear edge and a half drilled hole in the side...the front edge is smooth if I remember right. Anyone have a source on a parkerized castle nut instead of a blued one?
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Posted: 12/2/2005 9:38:06 AM EDT
[#33]
This is interesting. Tell us more on this lapping. More efficient gas use, less blow through the receiver? What kind of lapping compound do you use and the procedure please? |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 10:21:51 AM EDT
[#34]
Locking ring from DPMS OR You can contact SAW and pay way too much for a Colt original part. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 10:52:49 AM EDT
[#35]
The only time I've ever seen this problem (though I've heard of Colt's going down in the shit) has been a Bushy. ETA: I only wrote OAI cause Da_bunnys' benefit!
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Posted: 12/2/2005 11:20:09 AM EDT
[#36]
Who makes the stock you've got on there? Just curious as to the blued/non-slotted version. When you get a new nut it should have large squared off slots for the spanner to fit into when you tighten it down. There should be some smaller, slanted or ramped slots in the other side. The smaller cuts go forward, and the larger cuts go to the rear. As has been said, you can loctite if you want. If you are going to change the thing out (or think you might), this could be the way to go. Reasons for this would a single point sling, or changing the nut out like you want to do now. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 11:26:41 AM EDT
[#37]
Oly
 Fulton  Oly  Bushmaster 
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Posted: 12/2/2005 11:39:01 AM EDT
[#38]
The Bushy makes the others look like they were done on a monday.
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Posted: 12/2/2005 11:42:48 AM EDT
[#39]
The Bushmaster is brand new.
The rest have a few years of shooting grunge. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 11:53:21 AM EDT
[#40]
I meant more specifically, how well the staking job was done. The first Oly and the Bushy look to have the best contact, but it could just be me.
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Posted: 12/2/2005 12:31:42 PM EDT
[#41]
My stock is an unmarked RRA 6-pos.
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Posted: 12/2/2005 1:03:07 PM EDT
[#42]
 Great!!! Now please tell us how to build this magic thing?!?!?Also, will you please show off some pictures of the carrier keys that were staked with this magical device! |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 1:03:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Any chance of a pic? I'm pretty sure I know what you're describing, but I'd like to see it. Do you cut the jaws back a to definite measurement or just SWAG it? |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 1:10:21 PM EDT
[#44]
Top to bottom, BCG pulled from a new Sabre upper, CMT M16 BCG, and RRA enhanced carrier.
 If that one in the middle comes loose, I'm going to be pissed. |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 1:34:54 PM EDT
[#45]
I just openend my B-Day present (CMT enhanced bolt carrier) and it has the same staking as your CMT M16 bolt. Is this a proven method of staking or?
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Posted: 12/2/2005 1:42:43 PM EDT
[#46]
Well it looks to be exactly the way Tweak is saying NOT to stake the carrier key screws.
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Posted: 12/2/2005 3:05:20 PM EDT
[#47]
Top is my Oly carrier with factory stake job. Below is my carrier from Del-Ton which I believe is from CMT. It was not staked from the mfgr and I double checked the torque before staking it my self. My homemade staking tool is also pictured.
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Posted: 12/2/2005 3:17:00 PM EDT
[#48]
We used to use "staking" locking quite a bit where I used to work (100 times quicker than wirelocking). All the components I worked on were military aircraft parts ..either hydraulic pneumatic or mechanical. Our Staking tool that would be used in very similar circumstance to the AR15 screws mentioned here was "round". It was more like a centre-punch and was placed alongside the head but on the outer edge and given a good clout forcing the matierial into the head.
It worked very well and I cannot remember us having problems with locking even in the most demanding opperating environment. Taffy |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 3:18:58 PM EDT
[#49]
IMHO the top one has the firmest locking...the middle one would not be adequate for aircraft work. It's squashed down ...not into/across |
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Posted: 12/2/2005 4:08:03 PM EDT
[#50]
Yes, the top one appears to have been done with a round tool. I'm not really worried about that one.
I suppose I'll just have to restake the middle one myself. |
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