" />

.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

[Jump To Reply]Originally Posted By BB:
the OP should contain what makes a correct AR15A4 M16A4 clone like the cool kid clone threads.

One could probably write a fair sized book on all the changes that have been made to the M16A4 as a weapon system over time, so you can understand that it's somewhat difficult to do a write up to the effect of: "This is what constitutes an M16A4 clone..."

I sure someone will be along shortly to either refute or amend some of this, as I'm far from what I would consider to be a subject matter expert on it all, though I'll give it a try...

In regards to the M16A4, I generally view the weapon as having 3 distinct eras: "Early A4s", "The War Years" (to include US Army & Marine Corps variants), & "Modern Era A4s".

Early 'A4s...(July '97 - Sep '99)

Officially, the M16A4 was adopted on July 29th, 1997, to replace the M16A2 as the standard-issue rifle for both the U.S Army & the US Marine Corps. While there were prototypes rifles (XM16A2E4s) in use on dates before July of '97, their features (grey anodizing or such) are not generally considered when discussing "Early A4" clones.

Early M16A4s are noted by their use of:

M16A2 barrel assemblies (having rifle feed ramped barrel extensions & fixed carry-handle height front sight bases)
Non-"M" or "M4" marked flat-top upper receivers (these early A4 upper receivers did NOT have M4 Feed ramps)
They used peel-washers to time their flash suppressors during most of this period.
Most were delivered to their respective services equipped with standard ("shiny-surfaced") A2 hand guards.
They were delivered with standard detachable carry handle rear sights.
They all used metal trap doors in their A2 stock end plates.
Their safety selectors, while having a "tick" to indicate the mode of operation, were only single-sided (no ambidextrous safeties were in use) & the "lever" itself extended from the edge of the safety rather than from the middle as currently issued ones do.
Their A2 pistol grips also tended to be of a "shinier" black material & the bottom forward "bump" was not as pronounced as currently issued ones (it incorporated a smoother transition to the tip).
While the Parkerizing of the various steel components (Components like the barrel, hand guard retainer cap, flash suppressor, forward assist, rear sights on the detachable carry handle, ect.) were more "grey" in color than they were "black", the upper & lower receivers after the adoption date were anodized to a Type II (black) hard-coat specification. (Someone more knowledgeable than me may know if there were ever actually any "M16A4"s with "grey" receivers, though I know of none that were officially labeled as such.)
Early A4s were known to have used either the US M7, or US M9 bayonet (with early straight tube-style grip).
Sling-use varied between: standard M1-style sling or black A2 "silent" sling, though by sometime @ early '98?, various 3-point slings started showing up in use.
As for side-sling swivels, I'm not certain if it was only a Colt thing or what, but seems like some rifles had them, and others didn't. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in on this.

(Starting @ Oct '98? - early '99?)
A4s started showing up either equipped with, or were modified by the addition of, a KAC M5 Rail Adapter System (RAS).
These early drop-in rails tended to be more "purple" than "black" in color.

(For a short time between Oct '99 to @ early 2003(ish?))
ARMS #59M SIR systems would be seen to be installed on select units' M16A4s.

What I like to call...
"The War Years"...doesn't have so much to do with any particular "war" per se, but is basically from @ 2000 - 2010(ish)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of:

True A4 barrel assemblies having "M4" feed ramped barrel extensions & "F"-marked (detachable carry handle height) front sight bases.
Flat top "M" or "M4" marked upper receivers incorporating "M4" feed ramps.
They used "crush" washers to time their flash suppressors.
Their A2 pistol grips, while still incorporating the earlier tapering of the bottom "bump", were made of a notably less-shiny material.
The steel components (barrel, HG end caps, triggers, ect.) began having more of a true "black" coloring due to changes made in the surface-treatment procedures.
These rifles began being delivered with KAC (or later, P&S Products) M5 rail adapter systems pre-installed from the factory.
They still incorporated metal (aluminum) trap door assembles in their A2 stocks, though the stock-body materials began being produced in a slightly more "grey" color, than the deeper "black" color of earlier models.
Sometime during the later part of this era (@ 2009ish?) ambidextrous safeties started showing up occasionally in use.
Detachable carry handles began to be phased out of deliveries (or packaged separately with the weapon) as A4s began to be shipped out with either no rear iron sights or had Matech back up rear iron sights equipped... Also, KAC 600m? sights were occasionally (though rarely) seen to be used rather than the Matechs during this time period. (May have been KAC 800m sights - my memory is somewhat hazy in this regard)
These rifles were often seen using Surefire M95 & M96-series weapon lights (M951/M952 or M961/M962 models both with & without the use of tape switches) The earliest ones had "wide" bodies (thicker) & "ribbed" head assemblies. Later ones used thinner bodies & had smooth head assemblies. These changes were made in an effort to lighten the accessory weight-wise, at the expense of heat dissipation.
Depending on the AO - Buttstock magazine pouches were often used during this time period. Most were seen to be black in color, though occasionally other color variants like olive drab or camo-patterned colors were used.
Sling use varied dramatically during this period, though most were seen to be of the 3-point type design, usually black in color, though like the stock pouches, were occasionally seen in other color variants. Near the latter part of this period (late 2006ish?), Blue Force Gear 2-point slings began to be seen occasionally in use on A4s.
Also, during this period, many of the standard 30rd magazines with field units were upgraded by the use of Magpul "anti-tilt" followers. Later (circa 2009), the military began procuring their own version of this follower for use in all their future magazine purchases.

US Army variants tended to use Aimpoint M68 red dot sights (Comp M2 earlier, or Comp M3.. maybe Comp M4 for very late models? - I'm not sure exactly when the Comp M4 & M4s models actually started making the rounds)
Us Army variants were also noted to still be using either US M7 or M9 bayonets.

Marine Corps variants usually were noted to be using a Trijicon scope (TA01NSN & TA31-F? models earlier, & TA31RCOA4 models later)
The original TA51 mounts on these optics were at first shipped with knobs facing toward the left side of the weapon. Later this was changed to have the knobs of the TA51 mount face toward the right side. (or was it the other way around?...I can't recall now.)
The Marines started using the OKC3S bayonet with this rifle from @ 2003 onward.

Modern Era M16A4s (Circa 2011(ish) to Present)

These M16A4s are noted by their use of the following:

Their A2 pistol grips have a distinctive "shelf-like" tapering of the bottom "bump" of the grip, as well as a squared-off taper to the top side profile of the grip. Furthermore, these grips tend to be lighter black in color, nearing closer to a "grey-scale" than "black" and have a flat, non-reflective surface finish.
They use one of 3 different types of safeties - The first being like the older format (War Years) safety except that it is reversible for use with South-Paws, the second is an ambidextrous safety that has a shortened lever on the non-dominant (non-thumb) side, and the 3rd is non-ambidextrous safety though the "lever" extends from the center of the safety rather than from the edge of the safety as those of the previous eras.
The trap doors of the A2 stock assemblies, while still using metal retaining latches, are occasionally found to have plastic door bodies rather than the metal (aluminum) bodies of previous eras. (Though I'm not sure if this is an actual change to the A4 specification, or rather some type of screw-up in the supply chain.)
These rifles are delivered with either Matech or KAC rear sights equipped, rather than with detachable carry handles.
They are often seen equipped with either black or coyote colored Blue Force Gear NSN Vickers 2-point slings & mounts, though M1 slings are occasionally seen in use for "parade" or "training" purposes/exercises.
These rifles are almost exclusively used with either the Trijicon TA31RCOA4 scope (for the US Marines), or the Aimpoint M68 (COMP M4 & M4S) red dot sights (for the US Army).
The TA51 mounts used with the Trijicon scopes were, or rather ...are, commonly replaced with LaRue Tactical quick release lever mounts.
As of this posting, I believe there are no longer any A4s that are still equipped with standard A2 hand guards. They should all be equipped with KAC M5 drop-in rails. (That I know of)
Right around this time frame (2010ish), LED lighting began to really make itself known in the weapon light industry, and as such - M16A4s began to be seen with Surefire M952V LED/Infrared convertible weapon lights, or Surefire M600v? LED "Scout" weapon lights in use. (Not sure of the actual Scout model number, though I believe it was in the 600-type series)

Because of the often rapid, constantly changing nature of the use & development of night vision accessories & laser sighting equipment, I have purposefully not touched upon their use with the M16A4 in this posting, and shall leave that to the AR15 community's more knowledgeable fellows to expound upon.

On a side note:
Throughout the last two eras (War Years & Modern), there have been a number of "Field Modifications" (some "approved" & others ...not-so-much) to the M16A4 weapon system. One such modification, has been the replacement of the Standard A2 stock assembly with a collapsible one such as the Lewis Machine & Tool Company (or also B5 Systems) SOPMOD Stock, or the Veltor "A5" stock assembly. While these "Mods" may have been approved for temporary "fielded" use, while so modified, these weapons are generally no longer considered to be classed among other "M16A4s", but rather among the status of "Special Weapons" or unofficially as "M16A5s". Because these weapons (as modified) no longer fit either the physical description or technical specifications of that of an M16A4, clones which are based around these modifications are generally not considered to be among M16A4 "clones".

Maybe later I will go back through this adding a few relevant pictures, but I think this is about the best I can come up with at present, and hopefully it will be enough to help you to sort things out...

Mike (FlDiveCop71)

ETA: This write up, while general in nature, primarily refers to completed M16A4 weapons' configurations as they were delivered to the US military @ the timeframes mentioned, and should not be construed as absolutes as to actual configurations that may be found in the field, either presently or at the aforementioned time periods. While the military supply system may continue to provide newly manufactured components built to outdated specifications, these items are primarily intended & supplied as "replacement" components for older weapons, rather than as revisionary components for newly issued M16A4s. Though some mention is made as to various options & accessories used in association with the M16A4 throughout these periods, please note that these comments are by no means the end-all / be-all of what was either available for use, or actually issued to the troops, but rather that which has been either known personally, or shown through reliable sources to have been used @ these periods. ...FDC71.

Thanks. Somehow I didn't see the MOE handguard one when I looked at Brownell's.

That's what I get for trying to remember things

What models of Aimpoints are useable with a clone M16A4?

I’ve only seen the CompM4 and CompM4s.

Sorry to ask a dumb question.

I know GDI mounts have been used on Acogs.


Have they ever been used/issued with Comp M2s?

For $60 they are an absolute steal.

Most Army A4s were equipped with M68 / CompM2s back when I saw them in 2005-2006. I've posted this first photo of my rifle before in this thread, and I think I posted the second photo (cropped from a larger shot of me) also but can't find the page it was on. Both were taken in Baghdad in April/May 2005. Don't mind the way-to-clean DCUs in that second one...

Attached File


Attached File

I just noticed something odd in some of the photos of FN A4s that I've saved over the years. It looks like some early rifles were missing the "3" from the FN CAGE code, 3S679, so they were just marked "S679." Anyone ever come across that before? I don't recall it coming up in discussion here, but I might have missed it in all these pages. Wonder if that was just a manufacturing error.

FNMI SN 1010611:
Attached File


FNMI SN 1011836 (a little small, you may have to download and blow it up to see it):
Attached File


FNMI SN 10151178:
Attached File


I'm a little uncertain about those first two images. They appear to be real A4s, but I thought all the FN serial numbers started in the 8-digit range, instead of 7 like those two.

On the topic of rifles with M68 CCOs….OIF I/II called and they want their A4 back.

That's what you found odd about that 3rd picture?  Not the fact that the bolt catch is being held in by an allen wrech??


...

Ha! Yeah, I guess I've looked at that photo so many times that I gave up trying to figure that one out!

FN A2s should be in the 7mil range and A4s in the 10mil range for SNs.

First time I've seen pics of the Army using A4s with ACOGs

The one on the left with car stock and variable power optic is interesting.

So I have added the correct ACOG to my A4 and a Steiner DBAL D2. Have a Surefire M600 1000 lumen Scout that will be here tomorrow. I want to order the best sling setup next. I’m not concerned with clone correctness, but rather the best setup. So I’m torn between the Specter 3 point SOP sling and the Blue Force Gear Vickers sling with the A2 butt stock adapter. Not sure I want a stock mag pouch, hell this setup is getting too heavy already. So let me hear which is better and why.

Pic thread:
Attached File


Thanks,
ARKAR

I landed on the Vickers sling and butt stock adapter after several attempts with other set-ups. I also use a BFG sling loop on the A2 post, it's not clone correct but it beats duct taping the sling to the top of the rifle. I was issued a 3 point sling and I loathed it. Good luck and post up what ya go with!

The Vickers is what I decided to go with as well. The only reason I haven’t ordered is now I’m thinking of changing the A2 stock to the Vltor A5 setup. I hate to loose the classic look but the A2 is just almost too long. I swapped the lower with my M4/SOPMOD stock lower and it’s much more comfortable but just looks so wrong(even though I’m not really into aesthetics). I have the Vickers slings in two other rifles and really like them. Which rear adapter did you go with? The one that blocks the trap door or the other. Thank you for your feedback, that’s really what I wanted to hear.

ARKAR

Its getting there. VFG is otw.

Probably going to put an aimpoint pro on it w/ correct mount.

Attached File

A suggestion about that stock, that I am going to pursue myself is to find an A1 length stock. I find mine could be shortened up as well, didnt recall that on my issued rifles though.

Yes I got the one that blocks the trap door, we cut and then sewed velco on our A4s to have access to it but now I dont have to have it. No biggie.

I took mine out back today, I have developed a major case of SUCK past 100 meters with iron sights

Have you ever seen a Colt Canada CS stock? It’s an A1 length stock made of the same material and uses the same butt plate as the A2.

Edit: Sent you an IM.

I havent, I'm shopping tonight though so I'll look. I may be on the ACOG train sooner than later.

Edit to add, thanks for the IM and for costing me more money

@ARKAR

Can you send me the info too?

Sent. I’m probably going with the A5 kit anyway.

The Colt CS stock is the stock that everyone wants/needs that no one will make... https://www.apexgunparts.com/colt-cs-m16a2-buttstock-assy-w-early-buffer-gd.html

Cav Arms makes one but the quality isn’t as good as the CS stock. I just can’t bring myself to give that much for a used CS.

I think the Cav stock would be perfect IF they did away with the wide open slot for the sling swivel and filled the plastic stock body with hard closed cell foam with a hollow for a cleaning kit compartment. At that point it would finally be what it should have been the whole time.

Mine has an A1 stock, I’m about 5’9” and really don’t like A2 stocks. This feels just right!

Attached File

" />

Swapped the Comp M2 out for an older model TA31F.

My attempt at a USMC M16A4 clone. I didn’t realize how expensive this all was going to be. 🤡

Colt AR15A4
Trijicon ACOG TA31RCO-A4
KAC M5 RAS - Vero
KAC Vertical Grip - Vero
KAC Rail Covers - Vero
Surefire M962 w/red filter
OKC 3S Bayonet
Cav Mfg C1 Stock
(Give me a break, I got short arms and that eye relief is brutal. 😅)

Nicely done!

This is my finish line! Well done! I'll get there soon I hope.

Somebody better jump on this!

WTS—Palmetto M16A4 rifle project $550 shipped

Adding my build in...finished it about a month ago :)

Surplus FN stripped upper

New FN upper parts, FN BCG, FN CH, FN CHF Barrel, FN FSB and FN A2 FH

Surplus Matech BUIS

Surplus Trijicon ACOG TA31RCO-M4 Pre-2010 Bible Verse with Tenebraex AGA-ARD KillFlash Anti-Reflection 2890

Surplus SureFire M952 Kit w/ IR

Surplus KAC M5 RAS w/ VFG and rail covers

PSA M16A4 marked lower

Surplus A2 stock

Specter M16 2 point sling and buttstock mag pouch

USMC UID tag from Carolina Laser Works

Is the Matech the only clone correct folding rear sight or were KACs also issued?

This thread may answer your question: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Questions_about_the_M16A4/118-688916/?page=1

Is there any correct suppressors for a m16a4?

I've seen it with the Gemtech HALO

In the service?

They were small buys from various Army and USMC units - NT4 was more common - but the Halo was ready for M4s and M16s without the KAC hider. Halo has an NSN somewhere.

ETA:
1005-LL-MC9-2936 - SUPPRESSOR HALO 5.56 GEMTECH
1005-01-633-1951 - GEMTECH GMT-HALO 5.56 SUPPRESSOR

Attached File


Chatter in the M4 thread

Bump! Finally got this A4 finished for now... Last piece was the A2 sling mount. Colt AR15-A4 with a Colt M203 ft. aforementioned Halo for shits. Grabbed some 80s and a few stencils... May try forging an M16A4 lower at some point. Thanks to @sawgunner73 for the missing M5 component to mount up the M203!







That was a 100 yard shot that I was ~2ft to the left of!.. Aimed at the plates, though, and should have been aiming at the base! Lessons learned...

Grab an ACOG and you’re set!

Attached File


COLT FIREARMS A4 AR-15 RIFLE .223 / 5.56 NATO 20-INCH 30RD

Attached File
Attached File

Attached File

What does CS stand for again?

Now that I built a spare m16a2, I need to build an m16a4.

Anyone got pointers on a clone correct barrel?

Attached File


don’t knock it ‘til ya try it

Attached File


Attached File
Attached File


 Ohio Ordnance FN surplus upper with Knights M5, F stamped upper with no M4 cuts, cage code button broached barrel, PSA A4 lower, A1 stock, Larue MBT, TAG sling, TA31 on a Larue LT799 surplus mount, forward mounted GSG flip up rear sight, Surefire Scout on RM45 offset mount, Colt M7 bayonet Was thinking of selling it, might just keep it.

Iphone/arfcom keeps rotating my pics.

Attached File

Nice looking gun !

Trying to find a FDE mag pouch that matches my A4 I had in Iraq. It had a velcro patch that went over the flap that close over the mag.

The only other thing I need is a tan ATPIAL with black buttons & lens covers. Not sure if I'll ever be able to find that.

USMC simulated combat training at Marine Corps Air Ground Combat Center
Twentynine Palms, CA in October 2019

Attached File


USMC SWAT Team

Attached File