At the risk of being called a complete idiot, I am going to try something here...

My name is Michael Kassnar and I am the President of KBI, Inc., importers and distributors of Charles Daly shotguns, rifles, ammo, etc. Next week at the NASGW Show (an "invitation only" show for manufacturers, importers and wholesalers) in Reno, Nevada, Charles Daly will be announcing the formation of a new division within the company under the name of "Charles Daly Defense".

This new division will include products in 4 market segments; AR/M4 type rifles, tactical pump shotguns, a US made 1911 pistol and a few loads of buckshot and slugs.

Of most interest to those here will be 5 models of AR/M4 type rifles, manufactured to our specifications by a well known supplier/manufacturer of AR components here in the US. (We will be able to say more about this maker after the show.)

It is not our intention to be another assembly house with 2,000 different rifle configurations. What we will be attempting to do is offer 5 of the most popular configurations of AR/M4 type rifles and carbines, 100% Made in the US, with excellent quality, very competitive prices and a Lifetime guarantee. (Just what the world needs, another AR rifle!)

The purpose of this post is that we still have some time before the show to tweak the configurations that we will be offering. This may be a first! Actually asking the consumers of a product how they would like that product to be built!

So my questions here:

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

Well, these are just a few of my last minute questions. Changes can still be made so we are open to all your suggestions. The final configurations will be settled after the NASGW show and in time for production samples to be shown at the 2008 SHOT Show.

Feel free to suggest anything; tell us that we are crazy, whatever. We have pretty thick skins around here. Please do bear in mind that we are trying to maintain realistic prices on our final configurations. Of course we would like to include Mark LaRue's products on everthing we build, but if we do only some of you guys will be able to afford the final product.

Thanks for your input.

Michael Kassnar
President

KBI, Inc.

Whoo Hooo, Do PA residents get a discount?

Anyway.....

1. Troy
2. CL Barrels for Carbines/Battle rifles, SS for Precision Rifles
3. Don't really care about that but yes there are bayonets for 16" barrels.
4. Never used an ACE, from what I have gathered most use Magpul PRS or A2 or something else for Varmint.  I guess having all for a choice would be a good way to go.

but.... WTF do I know?

double tap... arrggh

1.  Any "quality" BUIS will be welcome.  I like the YHM products.

2.  I think you will find chrome lined is preferred... it is important to me.

3.  A non-issue to me.

4.  I like the ACE skeleton stock, they look good, feel good, and function good.

Quoted: At the risk of being called a complete idiot, I am going to try something here... My name is Michael Kassnar and I am the President of KBI, Inc., importers and distributors of Charles Daly shotguns, rifles, ammo, etc. Next week at the NASGW Show (an "invitation only" show for manufacturers, importers and wholesalers) in Reno, Nevada, Charles Daly will be announcing the formation of a new division within the company under the name of "Charles Daly Defense". This new division will include products in 4 market segments; AR/M4 type rifles, tactical pump shotguns, a US made 1911 pistol and a few loads of buckshot and slugs. Of most interest to those here will be 5 models of AR/M4 type rifles, manufactured to our specifications by a well known supplier/manufacturer of AR components here in the US. (We will be able to say more about this maker after the show.) It is not our intention to be another assembly house with 2,000 different rifle configurations. What we will be attempting to do is offer 5 of the most popular configurations of AR/M4 type rifles and carbines, 100% Made in the US, with excellent quality, very competitive prices and a Lifetime guarantee. (Just what the world needs, another AR rifle!) The purpose of this post is that we still have some time before the show to tweak the configurations that we will be offering. This may be a first! Actually asking the consumers of a product how they would like that product to be built! So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? I think the YHM is great, especially in the bang-for-your buck category 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? I really like the chrome on my 14.5" upper w/ perm flash hider, but on a true 16" or 20" general purpose AR, it isn't that important to me... 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? To me a bayonet lug is useless... 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?I love the ACE stocks.  Skeleton actually works well on 16"ers as well in my opinion.  Like the SOCOM.  It is very sturdy. However, I like the Magpul CTR much more and it is cheaper... Well, these are just a few of my last minute questions. Changes can still be made so we are open to all your suggestions. The final configurations will be settled after the NASGW show and in time for production samples to be shown at the 2008 SHOT Show. Feel free to suggest anything; tell us that we are crazy, whatever. We have pretty thick skins around here. Please do bear in mind that we are trying to maintain realistic prices on our final configurations. Of course we would like to include Mark LaRue's products on everthing we build, but if we do only some of you guys will be able to afford the final product. Thanks for your input. Michael Kassnar President KBI, Inc.

I'll go first... (eta, uh maybe not first...)

Hope this helps.

1. Troy all the way.

2. I only buy chrome,  the extra cost is worth it in my book

3. I just like the option, besides I have a few bayonet modified for 16" barrels.

4. I am partial to Magpul, but Ace does good work too

Look forward to seeing your products.  I have a few of your firearms.  Hungarian AK and CZ99

1. I prefer Troy, GG&G, or ARMS

2.has to be chrome lined if it's a chromoly barrel

3.to me it isn't, but if it pisses off the gun-grabbers more...then please include several.

4.ACE skeleton stock is a good piece of gear.  The ACE SOCOM stock? not so much.  That design needs a ton of work: the locking system has a tendency to fail and/or get stuck, the tensioning screws (small set screws) on top of the stock back out and loosen under recoil, it's heavy, and length of adjustment is minimal.


Here's my two cents:  Offer 1/7 and 1/8 twist barrels.  Manufacture said barrels from 4150 steel.  18" mid-lengths are a particularly under-represented type of barrel by most major manufacturers.  Use quality bolt and carrier groups (gas keys are staked properly).  Stay away from gimmicky doodads (MAKO security, Tapco, etc.).  

Quoted: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?

Arms or Troy seem to be the best bet.

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?

hoinestly, unless I am going for a super precision Stainless target upper, I wouldn't consider anything BUT chrome lined

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?

The presence of a bayonet lug does nothing more then to demonstrate that you aren't being an Uncle Tom to the anti's and are willing to put out the most un-PC rifle you can.

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock?

Ace stocks are quality products, but just not in vogue. Magpul and Vltor get the nod in this category.

1.   Troy

2.   Chrome lined or I won't buy

3.   As said before some will fit

4.   I have no experience with those stocks

1) Troy for flips--Larue for fixed.
2) Go chrome, or go home.
3) I have zero opinion on bayonet lugs, I don't use them nor do I intend to.
4) I have, and use ACE SOCOM stocks, they work great for me. The skeleton stock is a well made piece of gear, IMHO they are better than standard A2 buttstocks, but that is just a personal preference. But in all honesty, you should sell your AR's with MagPul CTR stocks as standard.

For what it's worth, for those who might not be familiar with KBI, I bought one of the Russian Dragonov sniper rifles that they imported in the early 1990's.  It was one of the full military versions, not the "Tiger" and I ordered it through a shop in Smyrna, TN. I was very happy with the sale and service.  Wish I still had it now, considering what they go for in today's market.  Doesn't exactly apply to the AR question, granted, but I figure it is relevant to someone not familiar with the company.  Wish they could find a way to bring in some more.

And in answer to the questions, I own a S&W M&P 15 Standard, so the chrome barrel (and other parts) was a plus, the quality of fit and finish made a difference, and if I were to add a BUIS to it, it would be either a Troy or maybe a GG&G.

The one thing I haven't seen offered on an M4 as bayonet lugs go, is a stand-alone lug that would let a standard AR bayonet mount on the weapon.  There may well be one offered out there, and I'm just not aware of it, but that would be a nice feature to add.

1. Troy, handsdown
2. Chrome-lined, better to have and not need then need and not have.
3. Bayo lug, non issue, what is cheaper, go that route
4. Magpul CTR w/ milspec tube

1. LaRue is good, but not as flexible being fixed. I'm in the market for a Troy or ARMS.
2. Preferred but not mandatory for me.
3. height=8

3.to me it isn't, but if it pisses off the gun-grabbers more...then please include several.

What he said!
4. Never used an ACE. Standard CAR stocks tend to be OK by me. And like everyone else says, the Magpul lineup kicks ass.

1. YHM is great for the money, the others are premium parts too
2.Chrome lined for chrome moly absolutely, precision AR's should have a stainless barrel
3. i think i've seen 16" bayonets
4. i like the skeleton, my brother has a socom. I don't like the socom.
I also have a Magpul PRS, and that is a damn fine stock, a little heavy but perfect for a varmint gun.

P.S. welcome

This is great guys! Keep em coming!

Bayonet lugs will stay!

Quoted: This is great guys! Keep em coming! Bayonet lugs will stay!

Great decision.  I was just about to post that the other items were not very important to me but the bayonet lugs are a must have symbol of freedom that must be included on any non-target AR.

you may also try posting in the "new AR" stuff forum

1: those are all great BUISs; i'd second the Troy; ARMS, MI,....GG&G--in that order myself

2:  C-L imo is worth the little extra cash and needed for a multipurpose AR imo; if not, SS accuraized bbls would be my choice

3: yes, a bayo lug is imp; if only for asthetics or simply to defy the old ban

4: ACE=OK imo; there are a LOT better stocks out there imo, h/w, for varminter rigs, they are some of the best
for others, i think that other models of stocks are better

good luck

Mr. Kassnar,

Take a good look at the chart below.  While it is not the end all or be all of things a quality AR needs to have it will give you a good baseline on what the important things are.

In the chart the manufacturers to the left have the most desireable features for people who really run their guns hard and whose lives may even rely on that gun working everytime.  If you can make an AR with the all the important features at a good price you will sell a lot of them.

Ask yourself, when Charles Daly AR's get added to this chart where do you want it be?  Closer to the left or the right?

As for your questions I would choose a Troy BUIS, chrome lined barrels, stick with the standard "F" marked FSB with bayonet lugs for carbines and use a mil-spec sized receiver extension(buffer tube) with either a Vltor or Magpul stock.

Other things to look into are the 16" mid-length carbines and 1/8 twist.  At this time there is only one manufacturer who makes chrome lined 1/8 twist barrels.  At the very least stick with the 1/7 twist.

Maybe you guys can be one of the first large scale manufacturers of high quality CMV, chrome lined, 1/8 twist barrels with a 5.56 chamber, M4 extended feed ramps and F marked FSB.  It would really make your AR's stand out.

BTW, I think it's a great thing that you asked end users their opinion.  It's been shown that companies who get there customers involved and listen to their suggestions do very well around here.

Best of luck!

So my questions here:

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?  Troy or ARMS

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?Go Chrome or go home.

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?Go with a Bayonet Lug
4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?Stay away from ACE!! VLTOR or Magpul CTR

Michael

1) GG&G BUIS (I have one and I love the fact that it locks in the up position)
2) Gotta be chrome
3) Bayo lug even if you can't use it, I'm serious
4) I kinda like the ACE

Other things to consider:
A) You really should consider the 1/7 twist barrel instead of the 1/9 which every other company offers, a chrome 1/7 would be great.
B) M4 feed ramps on the 16" barrels
C) Fully tested bolt

Thanks for asking, best of luck,
Bill

I pretty much ditto all the responses you've got so far.

Do you plan on putting the Charles Daly name and logo on these rifles?If so I would personally have a hard time ever buying one regardless of it's price.IMO CD=junk.I'm not trying to be a jerk.I'm just trying to give you my opinion regardless of it's weight.Good luck.

Quoted: So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? I like the GG&G MAD because it is the lowest profile and has two sixe apatures 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? I like most demand chrome lined unless it is a varmit upper 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? Yes bayonet lug please, also while your at make a dedicated 16in barrel bayonet (with a tanto point if possible) I would purchase if blade was under $125 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think? not qualified to answer I prefer Gov issue stocks However on the varmit an ajustable cheek riser and adjustable leanth of pull is a must .

Hey more competition is good make something different,
please look at the bolt carrier stake threads

Hydra-shokz,

"CD=Junk"

If Charles Daly does their AR's right I think a lot of people will change their minds.

1. Larue

2. Chromelined

3. Bayo lug is a must, "THEY" took them away from us once, so why take it away again?

4.  ACE stocks ? NO THANKS No foam on my rifle please. Magpul stocks are best but     may put your price in a higher bracket.

5. Offer only 5.56 capable Chambers (such as the Wylde CHamber) 223 chambers will just cause you problems with all the surplus and wolf shooters out there.

Quoted: 5. Offer only 5.56 capable Chambers (such as the Wylde CHamber) 223 chambers will just cause you problems with all the surplus and wolf shooters out there.

I think this is a very good point.  Some manufacturers say that use of Wolf or steel case ammo voids the warranty.  I'm not saying that you should go as far as to recommend the use of steel cases in your rifles, but making them where using steel is not an issue would be a great idea.  I've put steel through 4 or 5 different Colt barrels from 14.5" to 20" and it has never given me a problem.  A jam every now and then, but I've had a jam every now and then from brass cased stuff also.

If you pay attention to places that carry wolf/barnaul, such as AIM, Wideners, Midway, etc., you will see that they are out of stock more often than they have it, and when it does come in, it sells very quickly.  Last time I remember Wideners having wolf, IIRC they sold several thousand boxes in only a few days.  I bet most of that ammo is used in AR's and Mini 14's.

Glad to hear the bayo lug stays, even if it is mostly vestigial.

Troy makes good sites that I like a lot.

No point in coming to the party with just another unlined chrome-moly barrel, particularly if you are aiming for the middle or upper tier.

I have, and like the ACE SOCOM stock.  However, I would not buy another one.  I have used mine quite a bit, and as has been mentioned, the button becomes quite difficult to depress and the top screws back out easy.  When this happens, the rear of the stock tends to wobble around the tube.  That said, the stock itself is tougher then hell and perfect if you find yourself needing to club seals or something.

Since stocks are so much a matter of preference, and so often amongst the first items to be traded out, I would probably stick with a decent quality tele-style stock.  Nothing too fancy.  If you confine yourself to the Sopmod, the folks who prefer Vltor are going to wonder why they should pay a premium to be locked into a stock they don't like.  Likewise for Magpul and all the other stock manufacturers.  Better to stick with a conventional stock that doesn't add too much to the price of the rifle.  The folks who don't like it will trade out for what they want.

I would suggest a decent receiver extension tube, though, so all the Sopmod/Vltor fans would just have to purchase the stock body and not the entire kit.

BUIS-Troy for use with magnified optics, and LaRue for EOTech/Aimpoint rigs.

Barrel-If it's not stainless, then it better be Chromed; 1/7 twist and 4150 steel in Gov't profile are also a must for ME.

Bayonet lug-I couldn't care less, as long as it's the "A-Frame" type FSB.  I hate cheesy gas blocks.  If gas blocks are used, I vote LaRue or Vltor.

Stock-I can't stand ACE stocks, but of the two, I prefer the skeleton.  If M4 stocks are availible, use MILSPEC receiver extensions.  So many of us switch out to stocks that use this type, that it only makes sense (to ME).  I will not buy a carbine with a commercial spec tube.

I don't speak for anyone but myself.  These are just things that weigh heavily on my purchase choices.

"Flat Top Carbine"
You can put any sight that you fancy on it.

"Chromed Lined Barrel"
I have 30 rifles that are not chromed lined and all of them shoot just fine or better. This is not an M16 full auto. For a Semi 4140 steel will last a long time.

"Bayonet Lug"
In the Napoleonic war that was Important but not now.

"Stock"
These other gentlemen know more about this than I.

As above, chrome line the barrel.

Your16" barrel should either be a midlength gas system, or it should at least be an option!

If you make it an option, I would guess 90%+ of your sales will be midlength configuration.  This also answers your bayonet lug question- as the lug is useful on a midlength version.  Although most people will not use it for a bayonet, it can also be used to mount rails as well, and as most have said above, if you try to be politically correct in this crowd, you will never sell rifles to them (just ask Bill Ruger (I guess you can't anymore), and the former owners of Smith and Wesson, who essentally bankrupted the company by trying to please the liberals).

Want to be unique in the market?

Offer options which were listed above:

Base model with a standard bolt, but for $?30? more, a shot peened, MP insptected bolt.  
Base model with standard handguards, but for ?$x? extra a ff rail
Base model with single stage trigger, but for ?$x extra, the new giselle trigger.
Base model with ace stock- but... you get the idea.

Look at CMMGs website- they have done this with uppers- the burger king concept (have it your way), and RRA offers some options with complete rifles, but no manufacturer offers a build it yourself complete rifle that I know of.  With economies of scale, you could offer packages which save folks money.  Want to sell direct? Sell kits which the buyer can spec out to exactly what he wants- upper, barrel, handguards, trigger, grip, stock, everything except the lower and give a package deal.

Set up you website so people with BRD can build their dream gun, and it keeps a running total of cost- swapping stocks or forends etc.  If you really want to get fancy, develop a site with pictures of all the configurations so you can see what you are building as you add parts.  

I know this is not what you are intending, but if you want to establish yourself in this pretty full market I think you are going to have to be a little different.
Just my $.02

No Ace stocks please.

Quoted: Quoted: 5. Offer only 5.56 capable Chambers (such as the Wylde CHamber) 223 chambers will just cause you problems with all the surplus and wolf shooters out there. I think this is a very good point.  Some manufacturers say that use of Wolf or steel case ammo voids the warranty.  I'm not saying that you should go as far as to recommend the use of steel cases in your rifles, but making them where using steel is not an issue would be a great idea.  I've put steel through 4 or 5 different Colt barrels from 14.5" to 20" and it has never given me a problem.  A jam every now and then, but I've had a jam every now and then from brass cased stuff also. If you pay attention to places that carry wolf/barnaul, such as AIM, Wideners, Midway, etc., you will see that they are out of stock more often than they have it, and when it does come in, it sells very quickly.  Last time I remember Wideners having wolf, IIRC they sold several thousand boxes in only a few days.  I bet most of that ammo is used in AR's and Mini 14's.

I agree with most here, particularly about the 5.56 chambering.

MTNmyMag, the only reason the steel sold so well was do it's price.  If brass was just as cheap, It would have sold first.

Rear sights are kinda funny, as everyone has their favorite.  The consensus is that Troy and ARMS is good stuff, but I personally prefer the Larue fixed BUIS.  I don't like folding sights, except on my scoped AR, which the fixed sight can't work with.  

Chrome-lined bore/chamber or stainless steel.  

I want a bayonet lug, even if I didn't own a bayonet.  I have a TDI bayonet lug mount that I have a Streamlight M3 mounted on. It woks very well, and makes good use of the lug.

I have no experience with, nor desire for an ACE stock.  I have two Magpul CTR stocks, and for the money, they can't be beat.  This is only if you REALLY want an aftermarket stock.  Otherwise just stick with an M4 stock if you want to keep your price point down.  Use a Mil-Spec buffer tube, as it is seen in the industry as higher quality and they are compatible with the high-end stocks.

Pay attention to the chart shown above, and specifically the following:

M4 Feedramps
Proper bolt specs (black insert)
Proper barrel profiling (don't leave it heavy like RRA does!)
1/7 twist barrels (or 1/8, that would be fine)
F-marked front sight base

Good luck with your product!  Be sure not to scrimp on your quality control.

1) I'd say Larue.  Troy's are great pieces of gear, but honestly when I buy a flattop I generally already have plan on what BUIS I'm going to use and most times I simply take off the BUIS that came with the weapon.  I only use flip BUIS with magnified optics, otherwise I like fixed BUIS's for use with Aimpoint/EOtech.

But if you are going with a flip BUIS, go with troy.  I dislike the others.  Why?  I think they are ugly - yep it is asthetics only


2) chrome

3) Bayo lug

4) No opinion, stocks are very personal things.  I'll second the Magpul gear as 1. looking bad ass and 2. being very functional.

Matech BUIS

chromelined is important


lug is useless on a 16" but may be important for looks for some

no opinion I use a type 2 telestock

   Excellent idea to go to the masses when considering options for your AR offering BEFORE you go to market with them.

    In my opinion, the more options you have for BUIS and stocks. The less reason a customer has to bypass your product. Stocks in themselves are a very personal part of ones weapon. I myself have gone through about 5 different designs before I found one I can't live without. If you limit yourself to one option for stocks and BUIS. You limit your customers also.

   My preferences are as follows:

 1) GGG MAD - or anything else with same plane apertures. I believe ARMS makes one. For the life of me I can not understand why this is not standard on every A2 aperture sight available today.

 2) Its been said before, "Go Chrome or Go Home"  Oh and 1/7" please. It takes the guessing out of using heavy grain bullets.

 3) Bayonet lug without question. It will be a major bane of contention if you do not have it.

 4) LMT sopmod stock hands down. Comfort, durability, storage, locks up tight and it looks sexy. Magpul CTR is second for lockup and cheaper cost.

So my questions here:

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?
Arms or Troy

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?
Worth the extra $30.00 as an option, Ive got two that dont have crome lined barrels both SS.

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?
I dont care about the lug

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

I dont use ACE stocks

Chrome lined or go home lined....er, well you get the point.


You would do well to offer just the uppers. You would save on the fet. Be able to sell it everywhere and target the builder community. The market is flooded with top notch lower Mfgs. What's missing is uppers are reasonable prices with CL barrels, MP bolts, staked carriers and park under the front sight tower.

A price point of 400 or less including the bolt carrier/ bolt/ charging handle would be perfect.

Good luck with your endeavor.

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?

Troy

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?

Essential.

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?

NOT TRUE! there a a Solingen Colt branded Bayonet available that has an extension which allows it to fit perfectly on a 16" carbine with lug. Don't neuter my rifle!
here it is:


I bought two of them HERE

Not cheap but worth it to me.
More pics, mounted on my LE6920 to follow. This is a quality blade.



4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

I prefer the Magpul CTR stock.

No disrespect intended...but the AR market is flooded.

Colt, DPMS, Bushmaster, Stag, Superior, Olympic, Cav. Arms, RRA, LCW, Armalite, S&W, now Remington.

It's gonna be hard to find a niche here that isn't covered.

Quoted: So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? They all work, but I like the ARMS same plane apertures. 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? Decisive. Very important. 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? Don't make carbine length 16" guns. Make MIDLENGTH 16" guns. They offer more handguard space, smoother operation, and a functional bayo lug. 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think? They are very nice, but too expensive to offer on a baseline model if you want to be competitive. You can't go wrong with a cheaper but excellent stock like the CTR. Thanks for your input. I hope it helps, and good luck. Michael Kassnar President KBI, Inc.

Comments in red

In case you haven't noticed so far, only TWO people listed chrome lining as unimportant. That oughta tell you something. Don't be cheap. CHROME LINED OR DON'T BOTHER!

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?
LaRue or Troy
2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?
Important.
3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?
Lose the Bayo lug, and please please PLEASE don't add that godawful & useless M4 cut on a 16" barrel.
4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?
Their skeleton stocks are awesome.   The SOCOM is a little lacking however.  Go with a LMT SOCOM or Magpul.

Things that I view as very important:

M4 Feed Ramps
5.56 chamber (or Wylde chamber for varmint style rifles)

Those additions will help ensure your weapons run much more reliably.

Most everything else is secondary.

Magpul is building very high quality stocks and are extremely popular right now. I dont think their are too many problems with the ace stocks, but the magpuls are more popular.

Chrome lined is nice, but my AR's without chrome lining work just fine.

I'm not picky about the BUIS though I'm not the biggest fan of YHM

If your trying to go High end, then Larue makes the best of everything.

You might also look into the new Geissele 2 stage or something similar for varmint rigs.

Hope this helps

height=8

Quoted: No disrespect intended...but the AR market is flooded. Colt, DPMS, Bushmaster, Stag, Superior, Olympic, Cav. Arms, RRA, LCW, Armalite, S&W, now Remington. It's gonna be hard to find a niche here that isn't covered.

I agree the market is "flooded" with models. However, should Hillary win, we don't think demand will be an issue, only supply!

1. Troy Larue is interesting though.

2. On a home-defense carbine, I like chrome lined, 1/7".  On a precision rifle, its not a big deal

3.  Bayo-lug is Useless IMHO, but don't forget the F-marked front sight base for Troy or Arms BUIS.

4.  Interesting, have never used it.

Larue Rocks, plain and simple.  Nice to have the option of a factory installed FF handguard.  

Tex78

I'm gonna echo a lot of what's been said here,   but like to add a few points.
For a BUIS, I'd at least consider a version like the RRA stand alone unit.  It's
a durable part, like many others like it, but has a superior mounting system.
For a carbine barrel, consider a 14.5" with a perm phantom or similar F/S....
and better yet , make it a SOCOM profile.  You may not see the logic to this
right away, but if you make this configuration, you'll sell a TON of 'em to a
lot of folks around here and elsewhere.   Use 4150 CMV and chrome it, and
you'll have four hotels on Boardwalk !!  

I like ARMS stuff

Chrome lined is a NICE touch

Gotta have a pig-sticker lug, you'll lose TOO many sales if folks think you are trying to be politically correct!!!!

I like Magpul stocks, PRS rocks! Foam on a weapon looks preppie and gives me the willies.....

KISS is good, limit/lose the options and low-ball the price! Offering stand-alone uppers is good. Additional calibers possibly, after getting established. The Charles Daly name is meh, IMHO, avoid it if possible...

Go wash your mouth out KAZ!!!!!!! I hope you spit twice, then gargled profusely after uttering Shrillary's name!!!!

Ptuooie, Ptuooie,

<----heads for the Listerine

Best of luck!!

AS promised, pics of 16" inch AR15 type carbine bayonet

Here's my 16" Bayo compared to a standard army issue M9 w/ M8 scabbard.
The extension is machined from billet aluminum, anodized black.



Sheathed.


Unsheathed.


on LE6920. Perfect regulation fit on the lug, and correct flash hider placement.



Compared to standard M9 on a 20" A2.

height=8

Quoted: At the risk of being called a complete idiot, I am going to try something here... My name is Michael Kassnar and I am the President of KBI, Inc., importers and distributors of Charles Daly shotguns, rifles, ammo, etc. Next week at the NASGW Show (an "invitation only" show for manufacturers, importers and wholesalers) in Reno, Nevada, Charles Daly will be announcing the formation of a new division within the company under the name of "Charles Daly Defense". This new division will include products in 4 market segments; AR/M4 type rifles, tactical pump shotguns, a US made 1911 pistol and a few loads of buckshot and slugs. Of most interest to those here will be 5 models of AR/M4 type rifles, manufactured to our specifications by a well known supplier/manufacturer of AR components here in the US. (We will be able to say more about this maker after the show.) It is not our intention to be another assembly house with 2,000 different rifle configurations. What we will be attempting to do is offer 5 of the most popular configurations of AR/M4 type rifles and carbines, 100% Made in the US, with excellent quality, very competitive prices and a Lifetime guarantee. (Just what the world needs, another AR rifle!) The purpose of this post is that we still have some time before the show to tweak the configurations that we will be offering. This may be a first! Actually asking the consumers of a product how they would like that product to be built! So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?  Any 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? Would prefer chrome, fairly important 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? Not important to me 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?  Would like to see a SOCOM stock Well, these are just a few of my last minute questions. Changes can still be made so we are open to all your suggestions. The final configurations will be settled after the NASGW show and in time for production samples to be shown at the 2008 SHOT Show. Feel free to suggest anything; tell us that we are crazy, whatever. We have pretty thick skins around here. Please do bear in mind that we are trying to maintain realistic prices on our final configurations. Of course we would like to include Mark LaRue's products on everthing we build, but if we do only some of you guys will be able to afford the final product. Thanks for your input. Michael Kassnar President KBI, Inc.

1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?

Larue or GG&G.  Remember, though, BUIS are subject to fads, so what is hot today might be considered inadequate by some in the future.

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?

Most people wouldn't buy a "defense" rifle unless it was chrome lined (or possibly SS).  Just as importantly, PLEASE DO NOT OFFER 1/9 twist rate barrels.  If you want to be taken seriously, you need to stick with 1/7 for rifles created for defense.  If you are offering varmit rifles, that is another thing.  Take this to heart, though.  1/9 twist barrels are a dime a dozen from the mid-tier manufacturers.  Don't use them.

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?

It is important to those people who hate the ban.  Even if it cannot be used, having a standard front sight base without the bayo lug is kind of like having a neutered dog.  It may be sweet and all, but it is missing something important....even if Fido never get's a chance to use it.

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?


If it is a real SOCOM, then it is overpriced.  If it isn't a real SOCOM, people don't want it.  Call up Magpul and get a contract with them.  Having their gear on your weapon will instantly get you "cool points" with the buying public and will add credibility to your product.

While ACE certainly makes a good product, I don't know of anybody who really goes out of their way to get one.  You are probably better off puttng an A1 stock on the varmiter and offering an upgrade to the Magpul PRS stock.  The ace stock is just an unnecesary expense on the rifle.  Most people would probably end up replacing it anyway.  Why not use a less expensive stock and drop the price point?

OTHER SUGGESTONS:

1.  Properly staked gas key.  This is an absolute must.  Otherwise, it is the same rifle that everybody else is making.

2.  As stated earlier, USE A 1/7 TWIST BARREL!!!!  No more 1/9 barrels.  They are a good way to have your line lumped in with the mid-tier guys.

3.  It may seem stupid, but parkerize under the front sight base.  We really care about that, believe it or not.  In the AR community, it is a sign of quality and attention to detail.

4.  Flat top uppers must have an F marked front sight base.  It's another one of those details that you have to have in order to be considered a quality manufacturer.

5.  Make sure that you get everything you can from manufacturers that have defense contracts.  Just saying that it is "milspec" isn't enough.  Having all of your parts made by companies that supply parts to the military is vital.  The buyer knows that he is getting quality when you can advertise that all of the parts are from current military contractors and that all of the parts meet or exceed .mil specifications.  This may or may not be possible in today's environment with barrels, but I would bet you can do it wth uppers and small parts.

6.  Realize up front that you cannot be all things to all people.  You can't make a rifle that is going to appeal to a broad section of the market.  You can, however, market a rifle that is less expensive than a colt that has desirable features.

A.  14.5 1/7 twist M4 profile chrome lined barrel with permanently attached Vltor or Vortex flash hider, parkerized under an F marked front sight base with bayo lug.  (You could also make a 16 inch model, but you guys would be sort of unique in offering this style of barrel in a complete AR package)

B.  Milspec Upper Receiver (CMT, etc)

C.  Properly staked bolt carrier.  MP inspected bolt with upgradged extractor.  

D.  Magpul MIAD Grip

E.  Lower receiver with integrated "winter trigger guard" or with added Magpul winter trigger guard.

F.  Magpul CTR stock

G.  Milspec buffer tube, NOT COMMERCIAL SIZE (using a commercially sized buffer is an immediate strike against you).

H.  Quality small parts...that kind of stuff matters.  No plastic mag release buttons.

I.  Offer a two stage trigger as an option and as standard gear on your top tier rifle and varmit rifle.  Geissele, for example.

J.  Offer one or two choices for a rail system.  One high quality from Larue, and one good quality that is less expensive from another manufacturer.  (You may also want to consider the VLTOR CASV as a high-end option.  It would at least make your product different that 99% of what is out there.)