A couple of the latest pubs are marketing new products as sniper and varmint quality accuracy. The variations in price are mind-bending, so let's consider this.

I'm looking to buy a RR Bull SS 16 Varmint Upper. Put Tac rails on it and mount it on an Armalile National Match lower. MSRP on the RR is $600. LaRue offers a 16" sniper upper, as do many other quality manufacturers. The only thing that matters other than accuracy are basic specs: 1:8 twist, A4 flat top, and the ability to mount freefloating rail system.

So what advice do you have, on the varmint sniper marketing?

Alot of people say varmint or sniper and just use a production bull barrel.
However some are actually match grade barrels and are very accurate.
It may take a little longer but I suggest you order a custom barrel that way you know what you are getting. You can get a great barrel for about $300.

Quoted: So what advice do you have, on the varmint sniper marketing?

it's just that, marketing.

i think you can do better (that is, bang for the buck) by spec'ing the barrel YOU want, with the gas block YOU want, with the free float rail YOU want, with the upper receiver YOU want, with the BCG YOU want, and so on -- and having someone who knows what they are doing assemble and test it for you.

there are a least a half dozen vendors here on ARFCOM who can build you exactly what you want, at the lowest possible cost, and with the highest possible quality.  a representative of one of those vendors (MSTN) replied to you above.  others include Denny @ GTS, Jason at JTAC, CMMG, ADCO, and so on.  from these vendors you can pick excellent barrels from WOA, Wilson, Noveske, Douglas, and so on; rails from Larue and DD and so on; receivers from a number of vendors including LMT, CMT, Larue, and so on.

and finally, you can get excellent, objective advice from these vendors about how to reach your goals: what trigger might work best, what ammo will mate well with the barrel, and so forth.

below, a Denny/GTS build; starting with his RECON SS 1:7 barrel, i spec'd out the gas block, the rail, the upper, the bolt carrier group, the paint job, etc.  Denny delivered it in a box, i snapped it on to a BM lower with a CMC single stage drop-in trigger that i got from Wes/MSTN, put a scope on top in a mount from that crack dealer Mark Larue, dug deep in my pocket for a variety of 69, 75, and 77gr match ammo, and ... next thing you know i'm hitting golf balls at 200yds.

ar-jedi

KICK ASS RIG AR-JEDI!!!!!!!!!!! I am like gnfiter3 i have a armalite nm but i want a 6.8 spc 18" upper that if i do my part will be a tack driver.

I'm not concerned about the weight, as I don't anticipate humping it around the country. Accuraccy and price are the key. RR says Wilson air-gaged barrels. and the reviews on RR have been exceptional. The custom gun pictured here is impressive, esp, if it hits golf balls at 200 yrds. Unfortunately, I don't have access to a 200 yrd range down here, but, my Armalite NM prints groups at 100 that say a golf ball would be in trouble at that range. (Pentax 2-8 on a B-Square Mt) mounted on top.

Again, it's about how much cash to get more than a geewiz looking rifle. Also, how much of what I spend pays for marketing. I dropped a DPMS SS Bull 24 on that Armalite lower and I wonder how much more cash I would have had to spend to shoot consistently smaller sub MOA than that upper shoots. I have not even done all the handloding that can be done to find out what the barrel likes, just breaking it in right was my goal. You know, shoot and clean, shoot and clean?

I like the look of the piece pictured here, however, I'm parial to Black and silver, with fat barrels that shoot consistent .5 to.75 MOA. I can open that up if I fail to do my part.

Thanks for the sources for having an upper built.

AR-Jedi. Fine looking piece. All I want is an upper, for my NM lower. Black and silver do it for me. In the field, wrap it in some of that US Army stuff I learned At JOTC in Panama. I have old eyes now, so Good glass is important, and the trigger on the NM lower is what I have become accustom to, to say nothing of it's soooo smooth and brakes clean. Will, however check to see if I can get a bit more for a little more in a specialty upper.

ar jedi:

looks like range 14 at Dix!!!

billy

Accuracy is accuracy.  Whether it is sniper accurate or varmit accurate is irrelavent.  Shooting a prarie dog at 700 hundred yards or a head shot at that same distance both require the same amount of accuracy.

Buy the best quality you can afford and forget the marketing terms.

Quoted: ar jedi: looks like range 14 at Dix!!! billy

you got it!  as i recall, that picture was taken two years ago on the hottest MF'ing/no breeze day that summer.  of course i didn't get there with a buddy of mine until peak tanning hours.  

after an hour and a half i could not stand to be out from under the bench cover.  



ar-jedi

Quoted: Shooting a prarie dog at 700 hundred yards or a head shot at that same distance

with a 5.56mm/.223 Rem?  a nontrivial amount of skill and an extraordinary amount of luck would have to be involved.

ar-jedi

Allot of skill, but not allot of luck.  Unless you are talking about the wind.  Shoot enough of them and you will get the feeling on whether you will make the shot or not.

Heavy bullets in reloads that your gun likes and no wind make the shots possible.  Once your rifle is dialed in for that range, it gets interesting.  (Most shots though are in the 500 to 600 yard zone)

Most of the Prarie dogs in Kansas have been hunted so much that long range shots are about your only option if you want to shoot one.

Quoted: Shoot enough of them

excellent, someone with experience at hitting groundhog size targets at 700yds.  
i have some questions for you.

let's start with the equipment end of it...
what rifle (incl barrel maker, length, twist, etc) and ammo are you shooting?

ar-jedi

I use a 1:9 twist SS bull barrel in 20" free floated with 69 grain boat tail bullets that have been handloaded (A good friend loads them for me and my gun likes them).  Also light crisp trigger and good mildot scope in 16 power. (But most of the shots I take are between 500 to 600 yards, but dialed in at 700 on a clear windless day I hit more than I miss) Perhaps the two most important aspects is the wind and the platform you are shooting from.  Stable is the key word.  Some of the guys use special built tables/bench rests.  The guns are also as heavy as possible to help with stabilty.

There are things that I will change later.  I would like to go to a 24 or 32 power scope.  Also most of the guys are using 24" Stainless steel barrels to eak every bit of velocity that they can in a 1:8 to 1:7 twist using the heaviest bullets they can get ahold of (77 grain being the best.)

A well broken in and proven barrel makes a big difference too along with the temperature of the barrel.  Cold shots are the most accurate and as the gun heats up, so will the groups will open up.  For some reason once my gun is heated up the groups shrink back down, but not near as good as cold shots.

Perhaps the most important thing is shooting a load enough times to know the bullet drop, and having a load that performs exactly the same every time you shoot it.

Practice also makes allot of difference.  My favorite is shooting golf balls with my 10-22 that I built at 100 yards.  You learn proper breathing and trigger control quick and it does not cost much. (The gun specs are 20" clerke bullbarrel, bushnel 4x12x40 AO scope, bedded stock, action work and trigger work)

22 is cheap and old golf balls take a few hits befor they come apart.  They also bounce and roll so that they are never in the same place.

I highly recomend it.  It is a blast when you and your friends start competing who can hit what.

Not to mention that you never worry about cost when practicing.

Quoted: But most of the shots I take are between 500 to 600 yards, but dialed in at 700 on a clear windless day I hit more than I miss)

how are you doing rangefinding (i.e., distance from muzzle to target)?

ar-jedi

below, a Denny/GTS build; starting with his RECON SS 1:7 barrel, i spec'd out the gas block, the rail, the upper, the bolt carrier group, the paint job, etc. Denny delivered it in a box, i snapped it on to a BM lower with a CMC single stage drop-in trigger that i got from Wes/MSTN, put a scope on top in a mount from that crack dealer Mark Larue, dug deep in my pocket for a variety of 69, 75, and 77gr match ammo, and ... next thing you know i'm hitting golf balls at 200yds.

Have a few friends that swear by Denny's stuff.  One has a Larue stealth upper that was build up by Denny and the other has a 6.8 that was also built by Denny.  

how are you doing rangefinding (i.e., distance from muzzle to target)?

Now, bushnel laser range finder, but before in the old days, just pure kentucky windage.

Dogs at 500 to 700, that's what I'm taking about. Now turn that into combat sniper or SDRM and what does the Gov spend to build an AR with that potential. A lotta hype on 6.8, 6.5, etc. when .223/556 has the capability for exceptional accuracy. Of course, you won't clear any type barrier at those ranges with a .223, but if the SDRM can set up, he must be able to get one thru an open window.

Cost to produce this 700 yrd dog gun? My original concern was accuraccy and price.

jedi

what you have there I call an urban rifle, with desert color.he Now my Bush 16 is no geewiz looking piece, but with the added two-stage trigger, Pentax 2-8 on a B-Square, Urban Vamints would be in a great deal of trouble.

My 700 yrd dog gun would be the SS 24" DPMS Upper on an Armalite NM lower. If there was any place within 200 miles with that much open space down here. We do have Yote, but, again it's a long drive to open country. Lots of coordination with cattle and land owners. The Bull 24 is too much for the Urban environment. Are you claiming 300 yrd accuracy with the pictured set-up? 1:7 Twist, 16 inch barrel?

I am happy with my 18" WOA SPR barrel.  1 in 8" twist.  The heavier the bullets the better it shoots, likes 77 SMKs the best.  I need a higher power optic to see what it can do over 300 yards.
Upper and lower are Stag/CMT w/ YHM rifle length free float over Low YHM gas block and a RRA NM trigger.
RRA15

Dogs at 500 to 700, that's what I'm taking about. Now turn that into combat sniper or SDRM and what does the Gov spend to build an AR with that potential. A lotta hype on 6.8, 6.5, etc. when .223/556 has the capability for exceptional accuracy. Of course, you won't clear any type barrier at those ranges with a .223, but if the SDRM can set up, he must be able to get one thru an open window. Cost to produce this 700 yrd dog gun? Okay 5-600 yrd dog gun? My original concern was accuraccy and price.

The upper is a factory DPMS fluted SS bull barrel 20" with a free float tube, and came with bolt, carrier and charging handle.  Bought it brand new off of the EE for $450.  I got a heck of  deal.  It was never fired, and upon inspection it was true.  

A couple of hundred rounds for break in

Lower is a CMMG, with factory internals by CMMG with a reduced power spring kit, Ace Skeleton stock (take off part from another build) Ergo grip (another takeoff part)

A Caldwell Creek bipod, 4x16-40 AO milldot scope, and proven mags.

I have been wanting to add a Magpul prs stock and a good quadrail, but they would do nothing to affect funtion.  But they sure would look nice.  I would also like more glass for those longer shots. Maybe a 24 power.

Like I said before, good ammunition is one of the most important parts of this combo for accuracy. You can have one of the most accurate rifles in the world, but if you shoot poor ammunition it will NEVER group to its ability.

Quoted: A couple of the latest pubs are marketing new products as sniper and varmint quality accuracy. The variations in price are mind-bending, so let's consider this. I'm looking to buy a RR Bull SS 16 Varmint Upper. Put Tac rails on it and mount it on an Armalile National Match lower. MSRP on the RR is $600. LaRue offers a 16" sniper upper, as do many other quality manufacturers. The only thing that matters other than accuracy are basic specs: 1:8 twist, A4 flat top, and the ability to mount freefloating rail system. So what advice do you have, on the varmint sniper marketing?

My .02,

Ar-Jedi pretty well summed it up....

The key to accurate and precise shooting - whether 100 yd NRA match or 700 yd dog run are 3 factors:

1. a match grade barrel

2. Free float hand guards

3. the PROPER ammo for your specific rifle

everything else is secondary.....

Most shooters (including myself) go thru the same learning curve and ask...

Where can buy a rifle that does everything a want?

the answer is YA GOT TO BUILD IT YOURSELF!

Decide your needs,(varmint vs IPSC, run-and-gun vs target)
do your due diligence - research, ask questions, you got the best and brightest right here!!
And make a commitment to build your own upper  - as you will see, its remarkaby basic!

You do not have to buy the best -
but do buy the best barrel you can afford-its the heart of the rifle!

Check out Shilen barrels  (see MidwayUSA)
20 to 24 inch SS match barrel with bolt......$399
add a decent upper reciever(125) gas block (60) and GOOD FF TUBE, gas tube, tools etc
and you got an extremely accurate tack driver!
Now, you gotta go out and find the best ammo for your AR -
and then PRACTICE!!

i have a dpms 16" bull.  same barrel maker; just diff chambering, gas length , and twist.  itll shoot moa with 75gr loads at 100yds, opens up to 2moa at 200yds.  thats with a 4x scope with a 2moa dot.  i need to run some final finish bullets through it and get some 69gr sierras.  when i rebarrel, im getting a woa service rifle barrel and chop it to 17".

To get a little more on the question of how much of the cost is marketing.  The LaRue upper you mention is not built with common off the shelf items.  LaRue uses a machined billet upper that has thicker walls than standard mil-spec.  Also the barrel is a custom piece made out of a longer wearing stainless steel and has polygonal rifling.

A lot of the cost of that upper is in the specialized parts and the machines required to manufacture them.

The RRA is a fine piece as well, but it just happens to be made of parts that are of more standard manufacturing processes, and mass produced parts.  This all helps keep cost down.  

I don't think you would be disappointed in the quality or performance from either platform.  Just figure out what you want and what you need  to get what you expect out of the finished product and go from there.