Quoted: This seems to be accurate from all the pictures I've seen, however, at one point they had to have bought something more or less standard from Colt.

That would be 1965

Except in one case of badly damaged weapons (Corrosion from @!$I/ng medics putting them in an airtight case wet and unclean) I don't believe we ever returned a receiver or a weapon for a replacement.  We just slapped on new parts.

Really.  Most of the USAF lowers I saw were marked "COLT AR15 Model M16."

They're older than me.

Quoted: Kevin Dockery's Special Warfare Special Weapons has a picture of a 605 arrayed with other SEAL weapons, implying that it was an infield picture.  The 605, at least to my knowledge, was also described as the Colt CAR-15 Carbine in their literature, but someone might accurately contradict that.

If you have a specific question or inquiry for him, we have the same agent and I talk to him from time to time.  I can relay it for a possible answer.

Quoted: Quoted: Kevin Dockery's Special Warfare Special Weapons has a picture of a 605 arrayed with other SEAL weapons, implying that it was an infield picture.  The 605, at least to my knowledge, was also described as the Colt CAR-15 Carbine in their literature, but someone might accurately contradict that. If you have a specific question or inquiry for him, we have the same agent and I talk to him from time to time.  I can relay it for a possible answer.

Well that was a response to a question posed by another post.  Personally I put a lot of faith into what Dockery writes.  If anything you could forward some of the non-USAF related things to him and see if he has anything to add.

great thread!

Some good examples of the very “interesting” USAF Carbines, that demonstrate many of the comments made by Mike Williamson, can be found below:

If you look at the picture below, the Upper and Lower were most likely put into service in the late 1960’s as a USAF GAU-5A.

This Upper and Lower would have been in service for over 30 plus years, and may have well seen service in Vietnam! Once again the USAF simply keeps adding new barrels to their existing inventory of Uppers and Lowers, no matter how old they may be.


Then we have the Carbine pictured below which is an unknown?

The Upper is an A1, however it has a newer round forward assist, and a case deflector. None of those features should have been found on an original USAF GAU-5A, GAU-5A/B, or GAU-5A/A. Which in turn would bring up the question, which Colt model would this have been built off of, and how did it end up in USAF inventory?


Finally there is the Carbine pictured below, which is also an unknown?

This appears to possibly be a Colt Model 653, however it can not be confirmed. Numerous sources have reported that the USAF did have Colt Model 653’s in inventory, and there are multiple photos of USAF personnel with what appears to be 653’s. However the Model 653 has not been mentioned in any of the references that we have as having an “Official” USAF designation. If this is not a Model 653, then what is it?

None of the other original USAF Models should have had a forward assist, so if this is a USAF rebuild, it would have to be based on a Model that had a forward assist. It is "rumored" that the USAF did get some model 629's from the Army, so could this be a Model 629 that has been rebuilt with a 14.5" barrel? If the USAF did get Model 629's from the Army did they have an "Official" USAF designation?


I am not real sure that we are going to get the “Concrete Answers” that we would like to get on the USAF Carbines, due to the fact that as many people and examples have pointed out, things were pretty screwed up and inconsistent. Hopefully if nothing else, everyone is at least learning something useful about them.

Thanks again to everyone for the input, the quest continues,
"Capt Richardson"

From the info on this thread, I wouldn't even consider the Air Force  to have a "standard" model. They look like they are the masters of recycling. (not that that's a bad thing)

Still trying to make some minor updates and additions.

Details on various Colt Models:
During my research I have run across a fair amount of conflicting info on some of the Colt Models. I plan on going back and posting some more extensive notes and examples of where I have conflicting info.

Details on USAF Carbines:
Making some minor progress, but this is still a pretty big challenge. Amazingly most of the USAF Personnel that have been contacted stated that the info which has been posted is more extensive than the knowledge that they have on the subject matter. If anyone can get anymore detail on a USAF Carbine (markings, serial numbers, etc) then by all means please post them or drop me an email.

Details on Carbines in History Section:
My goal is to go back and try to provide details for each of the Carbines posted in the Historical Section. Given that in many instances the identification of these models must be made based on features observed in the photo, it may or may not be possible to positively identify each model with 100% accuracy.

Thanks to everyone who has been helping with this monumental task. Without this group effort there is no way that we would have gotten this far.

I will keep posting as I make updates.
“Capt Richardson”

I thought I would post this info in all of the more recent “Retro Discussions” that I could find in the hopes that I may help those who are looking for info, and it may help to cut down on duplicate posts.

GENERAL RETRO PICTURES
RETRO PICTURE THREAD #2!

Lets see some oldies!


TECHNICAL AND HISTORICAL GUIDES ON RETRO MODELS
COLT'S USGI M16 SERIES VARIATION GUIDE EDITION III

COLT SMG, COMMANDO, AND CARBINE VARIATIONS GUIDE

LOWER RECEIVER & MAG FLOORPLATE ROLLMARKS, LOGOS AND MARKINGS


XM177 RETRO BUILDS
WHO MAKES THE MOST AUTHENTIC XM-177E2 REPLICA PARTS ?

WHO ALL IS ACTIVELY BUILDING AN XM177 CLONE?

XM177E2 (?) IMAGE FROM SON TAY RAID FOR THE RETRO INTERESTED

So..you are thinking of a retro build...PICS and information


RETRO OPTICS
Armson OEGs for Retro-rifles

RETRO RIFLES/CARBINES OPTICS PIC THREAD


This is by no means all of the topics that are out there, but I think that these topics are the most extensive and have most of the bases covered. If you do a search for “Retro” or “XM177” you will find that there are a few more out there.

Hope this helps,
“Capt Richardson”

Not to abruptly change topics, but this is about Colt carbine variations of all types.  I just wanted to throw out something else that might get people thinking in another direction.

A Navy master-at-arms sailor stands security watch onboard Iraq’s Khawr Al Amaya Oil Terminal as part of a joint effort between U.S. and coalition forces to provide security against terrorist attacks against Iraq’s oil platforms. Many of the U.S. sailors spending time in Iraq come from the master-at-arms field, and the Navy is developing ways to provide better mental health counseling for them as they return.

Now this is not the first time I've seen this configuration.  It appears to be an M4 type, but its a fixed carry handle upper, and its also fitted with the short version of the handgaurds used on the M16A1 and A2 for mounting of the M203.  I just wanted to know what people thought this might be.  Pre-M4 or old M4 from the original purchases?  Oh, and I should add that I've only seen this config in use with the USN.

Quoted: Not to abruptly change topics, but this is about Colt carbine variations of all types.  I just wanted to throw out something else that might get people thinking in another direction. stripes.com/photos/35366_227152917.jpg A Navy master-at-arms sailor stands security watch onboard Iraq’s Khawr Al Amaya Oil Terminal as part of a joint effort between U.S. and coalition forces to provide security against terrorist attacks against Iraq’s oil platforms. Many of the U.S. sailors spending time in Iraq come from the master-at-arms field, and the Navy is developing ways to provide better mental health counseling for them as they return. Now this is not the first time I've seen this configuration.  It appears to be an M4 type, but its a fixed carry handle upper, and its also fitted with the short version of the handgaurds used on the M16A1 and A2 for mounting of the M203.  I just wanted to know what people thought this might be.  Pre-M4 or old M4 from the original purchases?  Oh, and I should add that I've only seen this config in use with the USN.

Looks like a Model 727 with a black paint job.

Ekie is usually dead on, so if he says Model 727, then I would say 727.

I have photos of USN Personnel with both the Model 727, and the early XM4s or M4s that had the fixed carrying handle, both with a M-203 attached. However this is the first time that I have ever seen a shorter version of the "Full Size" M-203 Handguard used in this configuration on a Carbine.

I can not say with 100% certainty, but it would not surprise me if this was a Unit Level or Field Level Modification. In all of the references that I have, to include 2 on US Navy Seal Weapons, I have never seen this configuration.

Since this has been brought up, I will go back and add a section to the guide that covers the grenade launchers used on the Carbines. Thanks for the heads up Joe, it is something that I should have probably included from the start.

Hopefully I can get the addition up by the weekend.

Thanks as always to everyone for the input and help,
“Capt Richardson”

Quoted: I have photos of USN Personnel with both the Model 727, and the early XM4s or M4s that had the fixed carrying handle, both with a M-203 attached. However this is the first time that I have ever seen a shorter version of the "Full Size" M-203 Handguard used in this configuration on a Carbine.

I think you can guy those handguards from Bushmaster?

Never seen a picture of a fixed handle M4 in service, other then mix masters, or 727's.

Quoted: Quoted: I have photos of USN Personnel with both the Model 727, and the early XM4s or M4s that had the fixed carrying handle, both with a M-203 attached. However this is the first time that I have ever seen a shorter version of the "Full Size" M-203 Handguard used in this configuration on a Carbine. I think you can guy those handguards from Bushmaster? Never seen a picture of a fixed handle M4 in service, other then mix masters, or 727's.

Bushmaster has the shorty handguards.

Quoted: i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Historical/Branches/USAF2004-2c.jpg THE NEW INVISIBLE MAG!!

Anybody notice the 3/8" DOD stamp on the mag well?

Quoted: Quoted: i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Historical/Branches/USAF2004-2c.jpg THE NEW INVISIBLE MAG!! Anybody notice the 3/8" DOD stamp on the mag well?

All I saw was a hopeless to ID mix master.  But now that you point that out, it narrows the lower down to a 1967 Colt.

Quoted: Ekie is usually dead on, so if he says Model 727, then I would say 727. I have photos of USN Personnel with both the Model 727, and the early XM4s or M4s that had the fixed carrying handle, both with a M-203 attached. However this is the first time that I have ever seen a shorter version of the "Full Size" M-203 Handguard used in this configuration on a Carbine. I can not say with 100% certainty, but it would not surprise me if this was a Unit Level or Field Level Modification. In all of the references that I have, to include 2 on US Navy Seal Weapons, I have never seen this configuration. Since this has been brought up, I will go back and add a section to the guide that covers the grenade launchers used on the Carbines. Thanks for the heads up Joe, it is something that I should have probably included from the start. Hopefully I can get the addition up by the weekend. Thanks as always to everyone for the input and help, “Capt Richardson”

Just a quick note, and I'll keep my eyes peeled for other pictures from now on, but this isn't the first time I've seen this config in the hands of USN sailors.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Historical/Branches/USAF2004-2c.jpg THE NEW INVISIBLE MAG!! Anybody notice the 3/8" DOD stamp on the mag well? All I saw was a hopeless to ID mix master.  But now that you point that out, it narrows the lower down to a 1967 Colt.

Probably a GAU-5AA lower?

Great thread. I always thought an A1 dissy would be cool. Behold, the Colt 605.

I realized there are some threads at militaryphotos.net that people might want to take a look at too:
www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52378
www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?t=40146

There was a thread going a long time ago about a picture of an M203 mounted onto an 11.5" AR-15/M16 type, but it appears to have been deleted.  Was hoping to find that and add it to the mix of pictures showing improvised or unusual GL mounts.

***

Bingo on the Bushmaster Shorty / Carbine M-203 Handguards:
M203 M16 Handguard for CAR

Good call as always Ekie & Scott!


On the Fixed Handle M4s, I would guess that the majority of them went to Big Green, but I would also guess that some small numbers also made it out to some of the other SOCOM Components.

Per the 5.56 X 45mm Timeline Posted at Gun Zone, you will find the following is listed under 1994:

January:
The US military finally accepts an improved buffer assembly for the M4/M4A1 originally recommended during the carbine's initial development. Previously, the military did not want to introduce a new part different from that used by previous Colt carbines in inventory.

The USMC approves "Operational Requirements Document 1.14." This document repaves the long and twisting path for the eventual adoption of the M4A1 Carbine by Force Recon and other units with need of a CQB weapon more capable than the current pistol-caliber SMG (HK MP5-N).

KAC produces a very small quantity of cropped M4A1 variants, dubbed the M4A1K, for use by USSOCOM helicopter aircrews. (By early 1997, less than two dozen have been produced.)

February:
USSOCOM awards Colt a contract for the production of 5,000-6,000 M4A1.

August:
The US Army officially adopts the M4 and M4A1 Carbines. Colt is awarded ~$11 million for 24,000 carbines. Only the first lot of M4 will be delivered with fixed carrying handles. Afterwards, all M4/M4A1 in inventory will be shipped with flat-top upper receivers.

I have no idea how many of the original M4A1's were manufactured and shipped with the fixed carry handle? Anybody got an idea?

In some instances it is very hard to tell which Colt Model a Carbine is based on a photo alone, a number of them share the same configurations, and you can only tell what is what by looking at the markings.

Go to go for now, got to start working on adding the Grenade Launchers to the Guide.

Thanks,
"Capt Richardson"

Thanks for posting. Great thread.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Historical/Branches/USAF2004-2c.jpg THE NEW INVISIBLE MAG!! Anybody notice the 3/8" DOD stamp on the mag well? All I saw was a hopeless to ID mix master.  But now that you point that out, it narrows the lower down to a 1967 Colt. Probably a GAU-5AA lower?

Or a M16 Model 604.

Quoted: I have no idea how many of the original M4A1's were manufactured and shipped with the fixed carry handle? Anybody got an idea? In some instances it is very hard to tell which Colt Model a Carbine is based on a photo alone, a number of them share the same configurations, and you can only tell what is what by looking at the markings.

I heard it was only a couple of thousand, but I don't have a source for that.  These would be easy to ID in that they would have M4 handguards rather then the old Carbine handguards found on a 727.  Like I said, never seen a picture of one in service.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Historical/Branches/USAF2004-2c.jpg THE NEW INVISIBLE MAG!! Anybody notice the 3/8" DOD stamp on the mag well? All I saw was a hopeless to ID mix master.  But now that you point that out, it narrows the lower down to a 1967 Colt. Probably a GAU-5AA lower? Or a M16 Model 604.

Yep.

Unless its a problem, I'm gonna keep posting what I see as relevant pictures.

Airman 1st Class Kyle Dalton provides security for an MH-53 J/M Pave Low helicopter during an exercise Wednesday, Feb. 15, 2006. Airman Dalton is a combat controller in the advanced skills training Program at Hurlburt Field, Fla. The exercise was filmed for the next series of Air Force commercials with the theme: "Do something amazing." (U.S. Air Force photo/Chief Master Sgt. Gary Emery)

Another rubber duck training aid from the looks of it.

Tag

On the M4 with a Fixed Carry Handle,
The picture I saw was of a Navy Seal, who was on the deck of carrier conducting training. The caption was ..."Navy Seal Team Member with M4 Carbine"... . There was no doubt based on the photo that it did have the new M4 Handguards, which you could tell based on the size & thickness. There was also no doubt that the Carry Handle was fixed. While this could have been one of the M4s with a Fixed Carry Handle, it could have also been a 727 with a set of the Newer M4 Handguards. Both explanations would fit the picture, and both would not surprise me at this point. I had saved the photo, but the file was corrupted. I have tried to find it again, but it has been removed from the original website that I found it on.

On the Wacky Mix-Master USAF Franken-Carbines,
If you look at the markings that were posted earlier in the Guide, you will note that 2 of the GUU-5P rebuilds appear to be built using USAF M-16 Lowers. Ekie caught it and pointed it out based on the Serial Numbers and Markings. The “Invisible Mag” photo may actually be another case where a USAF GUU-5P Carbine has actually been built using a M-16 Lower. That Carbine is also a classic example of a “Mix-Master USAF Franken-Carbine”, because it appears that the Buttstock, Upper, Lower, Slip Ring & Handguards, were all from different time periods and different production models. The USAF are definitely masters of recycling when it comes to building Carbines.

On the Relevant Photos,
You can add them to the end of the post or you can email them to me and I will be happy to add them to the appropriate section of the Guide. If you do add them to the end of the post, if it is OK, I will most likely go back and also add them to the appropriate section of the Guide. IMHO this helps with the flow of the material and usually makes more sense when they can be seen in context with everything else. If I do add any your posted photos to the Guide I will check with you, and give you “photo credit”.

I keep looking back at where this started a couple of months ago, and where we are at today, and realize that we have made a lot of progress. Of course I also realize that it would not have happened without a lot of help and input from everyone. I also realize that we still have plenty of room for improvements and expansion, hopefully if everyone keeps pitching in this thing will just keep growing and improving.

Thanks!
“Capt Richardson”

Here is another shot of that early circa 1986 XM4 Colt Model 720:



Picture appears to have been taken in 1996 or so, judging from the optic/mount.

Quoted: On the Relevant Photos, You can add them to the end of the post or you can email them to me and I will be happy to add them to the appropriate section of the Guide. If you do add them to the end of the post, if it is OK, I will most likely go back and also add them to the appropriate section of the Guide. IMHO this helps with the flow of the material and usually makes more sense when they can be seen in context with everything else. If I do add any your posted photos to the Guide I will check with you, and give you “photo credit”.

Well I would hope that it would be credit to the source, and the only credit I would get would be being the first to locate and post it.

Quoted: On the M4 with a Fixed Carry Handle, The picture I saw was of a Navy Seal, who was on the deck of carrier conducting training. The caption was ..."Navy Seal Team Member with M4 Carbine"... . There was no doubt based on the photo that it did have the new M4 Handguards, which you could tell based on the size & thickness. There was also no doubt that the Carry Handle was fixed. While this could have been one of the M4s with a Fixed Carry Handle, it could have also been a 727 with a set of the Newer M4 Handguards. Both explanations would fit the picture, and both would not surprise me at this point. I had saved the photo, but the file was corrupted. I have tried to find it again, but it has been removed from the original website that I found it on.

Keep digging, I want to see that one.

I don't think credit is due unless the picture is copyrighted like ones scanned out of books, or you know who took the picture.  Don't see how credit is due when all the guy did was find it on the net, or scanned someone elses work.

For example, that Model 720 picture I just posted, it is obviously a US Army stock photo, that Forest just posted in another thread, who probably saved it off some website.

Quoted: I don't think credit is due unless the picture is copyrighted like ones scanned out of books, or you know who took the picture.  Don't see how credit is due when all the guy did was find it on the net, or scanned someone elses work. For example, that Model 720 picture I just posted, it is obviously a US Army stock photo, that feamster just posted in another thread, who probably saved it off some website.

Yeah, that was basically my point.

Then we are on the same page.

Quoted: For example, that Model 720 picture I just posted, it is obviously a US Army stock photo, that Forest just posted in another thread, who probably saved it off some website.

That photo came from one of the members of my website and he uploaded back in early 2002.  I have no idea where it originally came from.

My comment on the photo credits was Two-Fold,

1. If someone takes the time to track down a photo and send it to me, whether they took it or not, I want to make sure that they get credit for it. This topic would not have made it to this point without the input and assistance of other members. I can’t make something like this happen, without that kind of help. As such I want to make sure that everyone is aware that other members are helping, and which members are helping. I have typically been listing the photo credit in those cases as “photo supplied by member XXXX”. This may also help in the long run because if someone wants to know more details about a particular photo, then they should be able to see who supplied it to me.

2. I am doing my best at trying to make sure that I am not using anyone’s material without giving them credit. In instances where I know the original source of a photo, and I have a means of contacting them, I have asked for permission to use it. However in many instances I do not know the original source, or I can not find a means to contact them. I don’t want to see this Topic get shutdown because someone starts screaming about copyright infringement. As such I will make my best effort to identify the original source, or the supplier, of all photos posted.

To be very honest in many instances I have absolutely no idea who should receive credit for a photo, primarily because I have found the same photo in different places, and I have no clue which source was the original. As such if anyone has any problems with any of the photos posted, and would like to receive credit for them, or would like them removed, please email me.

Thanks Again! Please remember that this Topic is happening because of a Team Effort, and everyone is welcome to be a part of the Team!
“Capt Richardson”

I do not know if this will help any, but here are some official DLA entries on the NSNs of carbines [text has not been altered]:

1005-00-021-2429 XM177E2 / Model 629

NIIN 000212429: SUBMACHINE GUN,5.56 MILLIMETER
OVERALL LENGTH 29.800 INCHES NOMINAL
COOLING MEDIUM AIR
END ITEM IDENTIFICATION 1005010814582 SUBMACHINE GUN,5.56,PORT FIRING,XM231
MODEL NUMBER M177E1
FEED METHOD MAGAZINE
FEEDING DEVICE CAPACITY 30

1005-00-930-5595 XM177E1 / Model 609

NIIN 009305595: MACHINE GUN,5.56 MILLIMETER
OVERALL LENGTH 29.800 INCHES NOMINAL
COOLING MEDIUM AIR
END ITEM IDENTIFICATION 1005010814582 SUBMACHINE GUN,5.56,PORT FIRING XM231
MODEL NUMBER M177E1
FEED METHOD MAGAZINE
FEEDING DEVICE CAPACITY 30

1005-00-933-7672 XM177 / Model 610

NIIN 009337672: RIFLE,5.56 MILLIMETER
OPERATION METHOD GAS
SIZE DESIGNATION 5.56 MILLIMETER
MODEL NUMBER GAU-5A
FEED METHOD MAGAZINE

1005-00-973-5685 GAU-5/A/A

NIIN 009735685: SUBMACHINE GUN,5.56 MILLIMETER
FEED METHOD CLIP

1005-01-029-3866 Model 653

NIIN 010293866
No FLIS or FLIS Plus Information available.

1005-01-042-9820 GUU-5/P

NIIN 010429820: RIFLE,5.56 MILLIMETER
OPERATION METHOD GAS
SIZE DESIGNATION 5.56 MILLIMETER
MODEL NUMBER GUU-5/P
FEED METHOD MAGAZINE
SPECIAL FEATURES TELESCOPING BUTT STOCK,14 1/2 INCH BARREL

1005-01-231-0973 M4

NIIN 012310973: CARBINE,5.56 MILLIMETER
No FLIS or FLIS Plus Information available.

1005-01-376-7245 Model 727

NIIN 013767245: CARBINE,5.56 MILLIMETER
SIZE DESIGNATION 5.56 MILLIMETER
MODEL NUMBER 727
SPECIAL FEATURES COLT 727

END ITEM IDENTIFICATION 1005010814582 SUBMACHINE GUN,5.56,PORT FIRING XM231

What does this mean?  I'm curious as to how the M231 (in this case the XM231) is coming up in these searches.  What is the format of this information, and where again is it coming from?  I'm just curious.  Also, why would the feed method for the GAU-5A/A be "clip" where all the other ones are correct and say "magazine."

I don't understand most of the end item references myself.

The information is from the U.S. Defense Logistics Agency [DLA] DRMS information database.

Thanks for posting the info Sgt Monroe,

I had most of those NSN’s listed upfront in the Guide, but it is good to get some more input to compare with what I have.

Based on your info, the latest run that I just made, and some other sources, here is what I have come up with:

On the Colt Models
609:
NSN = 1005-00-930-5595, that agrees with the sources that I have

610:
NSN = 1005-00-933-7672, listed as both US Army XM 177 and  USAF GAU-5A

629:
NSN = 1005-00-021-2429, that agrees with the sources that I have

649: Not 100% Positive
NSN = 1005-00-973-5685, listed as USAF GAU-5AA, but does not specifically list the Colt Model #. Most resources do list the GAU-5AA as being a Colt Model 649, but there is some conflicting info. Need to contact Colt, give them that NSN and see if they can give a corresponding Colt Model #.

653:
NSN = 1005-01-029-3866, that agrees with the sources that I have

727:
NSN = 1005-01-376-7245, that agrees with the sources that I have


I have also found

USAF GAU-5P & GUU-5P: Details are not real clear!
NSN = 1005-01-042-9820, this would have been a USAF Carbine, most likely a USAF GAU-5A or GAU-5AA, rebuilt with a 14.5” barrel.  

M231:
NSN = 1005-01-081-4582, listed as Port Firing Weapon. Does not specifically reference a Colt Model #.

Colt 727 and M4A1: Confusing!
NSN = 1005-01-376-7245, this one is listed as being a Colt Model 727 at the beginning of the description, but then it is listed as a M4A1 at the end of the description. The procurement history runs from 1994 to present, and the numbers ordered are very large. Based on that I am sure that at least the later orders were for M4A1, I am not sure if this NSN initially started of as a Colt Model 727 NSN, and was then later modified or changed to a M4A1 NSN?

M4A1:
NSN = 1005-01-382-0953, this one is listed as being a M4A1. Interestingly the “Design Control Reference” for this NSN and the one as above, they are both 12972700. To me that is very interesting because “727” is part of the number, and the fact that 2 different NSNs both have the same “Design Control Reference #”.

M4E2:
NSN = 1005-01-383-2835

???:
NSN = 1005-01-231-0973, this is listed as a 5.56mm Carbine, however it does not list any Military Designation or Colt Model #. Base on the procurement history which runs from 1993 to present, and that the numbers ordered are very large, I would also guess that this would also have to be a NSN for one of the M4 Models.


On the End Item Description and M231 NSN listings, seems like the data some how got mixed up in these listings. It is also like the listing that I have for NSN 1005-01-376-7245, where it is listed as 727 in the initial description, but listed as M4 in the End Item Description. I suspect "Govt Data Entry Screw-ups".

Thanks again, every little bit helps, we are slowly but surely making progress.
"Capt Richardson"

Just to throw more info out there, the M4E2 was IDed by D.E. Watters as a 925 with a KAC rail handgaurd.  I also don't know that the Colt FPW ever had a Colt model number.  A part of me would think it would, and the other part of me would think they might have just not bothered.  I guess this would bring up whether or not the Colt MARS had a model number too.

Quoted: Just to throw more info out there, the M4E2 was IDed by D.E. Watters as a 925 with a KAC rail handgaurd.

That wasn't me.  You and I merely speculated that it might have been an early, tentative designation for the M4 MWS.  You came up with the model number somewhere else in your research.

Quoted: Quoted: Just to throw more info out there, the M4E2 was IDed by D.E. Watters as a 925 with a KAC rail handgaurd. That wasn't me.  You and I merely speculated that it might have been an early, tentative designation for the M4 MWS.  You came up with the model number somewhere else in your research.

Well now, actually I started to realize as I hit submit that I wasn't sure.  I'm trying to remember where I got the model number from.  Maybe Pettifogger gave it to me.  This is annoying.  I did remember having the conversation with you online somwhere about it though.  Sry to have misquoted you.

Yeah, I just went and checked, Pettifogger gave me that to me during the original thread on militaryphotos.net.  However, that thread, plus the thread that mirrored it here have both been deleted on their respective forums.

???: NSN = 1005-01-231-0973, this is listed as a 5.56mm Carbine, however it does not list any Military Designation or Colt Model #. Base on the procurement history which runs from 1993 to present, and that the numbers ordered are very large, I would also guess that this would also have to be a NSN for one of the M4 Models.

According to the admendments to the DAAE20-98-C-0082 contract [dated 03 Aug 2000] between Colts Manufacturing and TACOM the NSN 1005-01-231-0973 is the M4 Carbine. The contract also includes information on the M4A1 listed as NSN 1005-01-382-0953. The contract specifies, among other things, the undelivered amount of 18,098 M4s to the United States Army, 259 M4A1s to the United States Air Force, 200 M4A1s to the INS, 499 M4A1s to the United States Navy, and 3240 M4A1s to the USASOC.

Unfortunately there is no reference made to the Colt model numbers in the contract.

I am trying to find the other NSNs and corresponding information as I can.

We seriously need an AR15 reference forum, for tacking threads like this, thread's like Ekie's, and for picture threads.  

I'm behind the times, but I've just found out about the Navy Mk18 Mod0.  Does it fit in this mix somewhere?

Quoted: I'm behind the times, but I've just found out about the Navy Mk18 Mod0.  Does it fit in this mix somewhere?

So far this thread is pre M4, as in pre-94.

public.secnav.navy.mil/FY07.nsf/($reload)/8525711F000FDA098525702800433FF4/$FILE/WPN_BA04_4129.pdf

Here's something interesting for you.  A February 2006 budget proposal by the Navy for the purchase of M727/Mk727/M4 5.56mm carbines.  I'm assuming that the two designations are for the same rifle and refer to the Colt 727.  If so, its interesting that they used all three designations in different sections of the paper, and that the 727 has the standard A2 upper receiver.

...Sorry about the link error.  corrected.

Quoted: public.secnav.navy.mil/FY07.nsf/($reload)/8525711F000FDA098525702800433FF4/$FILE/WPN_BA04_4129.pdf Here's something interesting for you.  A February 2006 budget proposal by the Navy for the purchase of M727/Mk727/M4 5.56mm carbines.  I'm assuming that the two designations are for the same rifle and refer to the Colt 727.  If so, its interesting that they used all three designations in different sections of the paper, and that the 727 has the standard A2 upper receiver.

First off, its a PDF, so anyone who's having trouble viewing it, either select view image on the borked one above, or click the link in this quote.

I find it interesting the stuff the USN is procuring for the Naval Mobile Construction Battalions, and I've seen some relatively unique things already.  The stuff listed in that "shopping list" is an interesting collection of things to be sure.  I'm guessing whoever filled it out misunderstood the M727 reference and simply put it into a Mk designator because it seemed to make sense at the time.  Additional M16A3s is also interesting.

On an off topic note, if anyone has any information on the Mk 44 minigun reference, PM me.  I've been collecting designations for some time now, and this is the first instance where I've seen that one.

-Edit: Does anyone here have the ability to check temp NSNs or even NSNs in general?  I'm trying to get some more info on the following: 1005-LL-L99-5742.