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Posted: 3/5/2006 4:48:53 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 3/5/2006 5:11:04 PM EDT
[#2]
Just have to say that I love this thread, especially the first page.
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Posted: 3/6/2006 7:15:59 PM EDT
[#3]
btt with a couple interesting pics from the book "NAM a photographic history" by Leo J. Daughterty and Gregory Louis Mattson
interesting shots of the weapons in Viet Nam    
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Posted: 3/6/2006 7:48:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Wow, great pics, gotta love those Realist scopes. |
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Posted: 3/6/2006 8:23:01 PM EDT
[#5]
Note the lack of the adjustment latch on the third pic. |
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Posted: 3/6/2006 8:29:54 PM EDT
[#6]
What up with that? |
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Posted: 3/7/2006 5:22:57 AM EDT
[#7]
Are you talking about the rear sight adjustment disc? If so, its on the other side of the carry handle. |
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Posted: 3/7/2006 5:36:10 AM EDT
[#8]
Adjustment lever on the stock |
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Posted: 3/7/2006 5:39:05 AM EDT
[#9]
Didn't even notice, that is interesting. |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 9:55:44 AM EDT
[#10]
Just completed a minor update / overhaul.
Reformatted some things so that everything should now fit into the screen without having to move the view left or right. Added a 40MM Grenade Launcher Section. Added & revamped some of the USAF Carbine info. Added about another 10 photos in the Historical Section. Thanks to YardDogOne for adding the great Vietnam Photos. Thanks to everyone else for the continued technical & editorial input. It is hard for me to believe, but this post has now been viewed over 8000 times. I don’t guess that is to shabby, amazing what you can do with some help from everyone else! If you have any improvement suggestions or content contributions, then please post it or send me an email. I would really like to see this topic continuing to grow and improve. Keep checking back, hopefully it will keep getting better! “Capt Richardson” |
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Posted: 3/8/2006 11:24:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Nice additions, I just thought I'd put in this photo that I had seen, which shows an M203 on what I believe is a 629/630.
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Posted: 3/9/2006 7:34:10 PM EDT
[#12]
Some information on one of the images posted...the below image posted on page one is of then-Sergeant Vincent Lombardi Jr. [no relation] circa 1986 [note the overseas Ranger SSI for Grenada]...
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/001.jpg Below is a small image [I am trying to find a larger one - I used to have one] that shows Rangers on Grenada during Urgent Fury [1983]. The Ranger highlighted is Vince Lombardi Jr. The Ranger to his left is carrying a Model 653. Vince Lombardi Jr. died on 18 Feb 02 of cancer having attained the rank of Major. http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/002.jpg The following are Vietnam era images - all are XM177E1s: Of course this image appears on page 1 of this post - it was taken 12 Oct 67 and shows Specialist 4 Henning, Rodney of Chippewa Falls, Wisconsin, a rifleman in the 1st Cavalry Division. The image was taken in Khe, South Vietnam. http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/003_67.jpg This image was taken sometime in 1967, soldiers and unit unknown. http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/004_67.jpg Next is a picture of South Vietnamese Police General Nguyen Ngoc Loan [yes, the same one in the infamous Pulitzer Prize image [and film] shooting the VC in the head with a .38] in Hue. The image was taken in February 1968 by Christian Simonpietri. http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/005_68.jpg A distant shot of an image posted above. The picture is of Sergeant First Class Strader, Harman of Alton, Illinois. The image was taken 11 May 68 in Saigon. http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/006_68.jpg In combat on 25 Jun 69 at a Green Beret camp near Bet Het, South Vietnam. http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/007_69.jpg 11 Sep 69 a Green Beret carrying an XM177E2h http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/008_69.jpg Another image from above taken 17 Sep 69 near Chi Long, South Vietnam. Photograph by Kent Potter. http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/009_69.jpg |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 7:55:46 AM EDT
[#13]
I know this is beyond the general scope of what we're talking about, but I saw this picture on wikipedia and thought people might find it interesting.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TallAfarIraq3rdArmoredCav2006.jpg This photo is dated 2006, but there appears to be a mix of both fixed and detachable carry handle M4s. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 8:28:18 AM EDT
[#14]
The one on the extreme right has a fixed handle. Also has the newer 2002 and on buttstock. Mixmaster of some sort. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 8:48:43 AM EDT
[#15]
Am I wrong on in seeing that the 2nd and 4th appear to have fixed handles as well, or are those detachable handles installed?
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Posted: 3/15/2006 8:58:28 AM EDT
[#16]
I can see the seem for the carry handle on number 4. The carbine on the left is too blury for me to make out. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 9:41:04 AM EDT
[#17]
How'd I miss this post.
Tag |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 9:50:29 AM EDT
[#18]
Awesome photos , that dude with the shorty looking out the window , INTENSE -- if i were a VC , i would not want to have FUK'ed with that dude !
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Posted: 3/15/2006 10:10:18 AM EDT
[#19]
(Cropped Version)
 On the photo above posted by Thatguy96, working off of the basis that 4 Carbines are pictured, going from left to right: #1 far left = removable carry handle #2 center left = flat top, removable carry handle taken off #3 center right = removable carry handle #4 far right = fixed carry handle I have been trying to find a photo of a “True Fixed Handle M4” in use in the field, but I am not sure that I have done so. Just looking at photos alone, it is very difficult to tell if is a “True Fixed Handle M4”, or just some type of “Mixmaster Configuration” or a Colt Model 727. Given that there were only a couple thousand of Fixed Handle M4s made, also does not make finding one of them any easier. On the Carbine pictured in that photo with the fixed handle, I would also have to agree with Ekie that this is most likely a mix of components / parts. I know I am not skilled enough to identify what they are based on the photo alone. The photos below could be of a Fixed Handle M4, but they could also be a Model 727, or a “Mixmaster Rebuild”, I can't say 100% yes or no.     I hate to say it, or admit it, but the “Original Plan” for the “Carbine Guide” was to include all of the “US Military Carbines”. However when I got to the M-4, or the Colt Model 777, things got real interesting. All of sudden it was no longer 1 Manufacturer, 1 Model, and 1 Configuration, now it was multiples of everything. The Carbines pictured above are a good example of that. They should all be “M4s”, but if you look you will see a significant variation in components from Carbine to Carbine. That being the case I stopped where I did because I felt it was going to be difficult, if not impossible to nail all of those models and details down, especially trying to say what component is what by simply looking at a photo. I hope someone will be brave enough, skilled enough, and motivated enough to come up with a Carbine Guide that will address the M4 variants, for me personally I still have my hands full trying to get some of the issues worked out with the Pre-M4 Carbines. Thanks as always for the input, “Capt Richardson” PS: Thanks very much for the photos and the help with the "Historical Side" of the Carbines, which includes the "Human Aspect". While I think that it is important to document the "Technical Aspects" so they are not lost to History, it is as important if not more important to also document the people who carried them and the battles they fought, so they are also not lost to History. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 10:17:38 AM EDT
[#20]
Hi!
I have some questions h.gif The model M653 - what year did it enter service? Was it used in Vietnam? I also wonder if model M651 was used in Vietnam - and if - from what year? Also I wonder over the model M655. This model is sometimes referd to as a carbine and in sometimes as an sniper version - ???. I saw some modelguns with that name, is it just fiction or dose it exist? Do anyone has a clue? Modell GUN Carbine M655: http://www.modelguns.co.uk/m16_m655.htm Another modelgun pic: http://homepage3.nifty.com/nkoinuma/MGCM655-1.jpg Here is that one M655 as a sniperversion (4th Right - with scoop) : http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/kactour/KACTour130.jpg Best regars, Mik [8P |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 10:22:26 AM EDT
[#21]
 Latch broken off. Nut retaining pin removed and metal ring inserted through hole for field-expedient latch-pull. Also commonly seen in Central America. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 10:50:40 AM EDT
[#22]
Agreed i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/M4FH1.jpg Not enought there to make an ID. i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/M4FH2.jpg Mixmaster, M16A2 with a swapped out buttstock assy. i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/M4FH3.jpg Air Force mixmaster, 1960's or 1970's lower, and could be a M4 upper. i36.photobucket.com/albums/e30/captcarbine/Misc/M4FH4.jpg Not sure what to make of that, looks like a mid 90's upper on a recent production lower. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 10:53:04 AM EDT
[#23]
IIRC the 653 enters production 1973, too late for US involvement in South East Asia, but just in time for the Yom Kippur War (Israel being probably the only other large user of the 653 beyond the Filipinos and the US). I would think none of the 650 series carbines were around early enough to see usage in South East Asia with US forces. On the matter of the 655 I have also seen this discrepency, but have only ever heard officially of the 655 Special High Profile. I would venture a guess that Chris Bartocci's BR II would have some information to this matter that hopefully someone can relay. Otherwise, I've seen little conclusive evidence one way or the other beyond the fact that the "Special High Profile" definitly existed, and that 650-654 were all carbines. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 10:54:13 AM EDT
[#24]
The earliest examples of the 14.5 Carbines I have pictures of are from the Knight's collection. Don't have those in front of me, but am thinking they are circa 1967 or so. Since they were not adopted standard A and were purchased COTS it would be tough to know when they first entered service. About the only way to find out if they were used in Vietnam would be to find a picture of one there, don't think I have seen one. I thought the 655 was the flat top? |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 10:55:46 AM EDT
[#25]
Prototype and enters production are two different things, but I know there are 653 older then 1973. You have a source for the production date? |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 10:56:46 AM EDT
[#26]
Great info, from a guy who would know. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 12:27:05 PM EDT
[#27]
The model M653 - what year did it enter service? Was it used in Vietnam?
From what I can tell “Early 1970’s” seems to be about the time they were making it into the field in large numbers. The earliest picture that I have of a 653 in the field is picture of a SEAL with one and it is dated 1974. In “Special Warfare Special Weapons” Kevin Dockery does not mention the use of a 653 in Vietnam. I have also never seen a photo of a 653 in use during Vietnam. I also wonder if model M651 was used in Vietnam - and if - from what year? From what I can tell no. The 651 should be on the same timeline as the 653 which would have put it in service around 1973. I have also never seen a photo of a 651 in use during Vietnam. Also I wonder over the model M655. This model is sometimes referd to as a carbine and in sometimes as an sniper version - ???. I saw some modelguns with that name, is it just fiction or dose it exist? Do anyone has a clue? Modell GUN Carbine M655: http://www.modelguns.co.uk/m16_m655.htm Another modelgun pic: http://homepage3.nifty.com/nkoinuma/MGCM655-1.jpg These “Models” would be either a Colt Model 651 or 652, not a Colt Model 655. Here is that one M655 as a sniperversion (4th Right - with scoop) : http://photos.imageevent.com/smglee/kactour/KACTour130.jpg According to the references that I have (3 books – Bartocci, Huon, Long) this is the Colt Model 655. Below is the photo from Duncan Long’s AR15 / M16 Sourcebook.  The top is a 655, the bottom is 656. These models never really saw any significant production numbers (triple digits at best) or any significant use in the field. IMHO, what really sucks about the “Black Rifle Books” is that none of them have a good timeline for the production dates of the various Colt Models. I am trying to piece one together, but so far it has not been an easy task. Thanks, “Capt Richardson” |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 12:29:27 PM EDT
[#28]
I have people as my sources on that one, but I had assumed they had gotten that from print sources. It also most likely just seemed logical seeing as there isn't any evidence of them being fielded with any US military unit prior to then, and there is evidence of them being shipped in relatively large quantities along with large quantities of M16A1s to Israeli by October 1973. Also, about the 655, flat top what? The Special Low Profile, with the integral scope base built into the reciever has always been the 656 from what I've read. I don't have a model number on any similar project done with carbine lengths. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:12:40 PM EDT
[#29]
Hey look! A picture of a M653 in Vietnam! Ha!
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/platoon.jpg You would be surprised how many arguments I have gotten into trying to explain to people that the M653 did not see service in Vietnam. And it is definately not "proof" because it appeared in Platoon! BTW it's a M653P, all small arms were provide by the Philippine military. Getting off topic a bit...from the infamous SMG Lee photos of the Reed Knight collection: A M655: http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/m655.jpg Some M656s: http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/m656_01.jpg http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/m656_02.jpg But what is this? I always thought it was a M655 [until corrected by the previous post]: http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/sgtmonroe/Colt%20Carbines/unk.jpg |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:17:42 PM EDT
[#30]
I would not argue with 1973 for production sounds good to me, was just hoping you could peg it to a source. Your right about the 655, got it mixed up with the 656. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:18:31 PM EDT
[#31]
Never seen that one before. The "host" is a 601 though. |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 4:28:57 PM EDT
[#32]
Colt licensed the 603P [M16A1] and 653P to Elisco, when did this happen?
Couldn't that help determine the general time frame that the M653 was in production? As my understanding was that the Philippine government originally trialed XM16E1s and XM177-variants - but as we all know the moderators on the XM177-variants were soon banned from export. So I assume the M653P was accepted in place of the non-exportable XM177-variants? |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 5:05:14 PM EDT
[#33]
I only know of the 603 being licensed to the Koreans (Pusan Arsenal 603K). The information I have says Elisco Tools built the 611P (M16A1 HBAR type), 613P (M16A1 type), and 653P (M16A1 carbine). Where is the information on the 603P coming from? |
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Posted: 3/15/2006 6:09:36 PM EDT
[#34]
Sorry, I meant 613P. For some reason I had the 603K on the brain. The 613 being the export version of the 603.
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Posted: 3/17/2006 7:25:21 PM EDT
[#35]
Here is another one for you,
 This is the USAF 51st Security Forces training in Korea in Jul 2001. This was identified as an M4. If it is not an M4, it would have to be a Colt Model 727, however the USAF has no official designation or documentation for a 727. While the USAF obviously likes to rebuild, this does not look like a typical USAF rebuild to me. If this is an M4, then this would have be a “Fixed Handle M4”. Also on the USAF Carbines, I have found another 5 photos of USAF Personnel with Colt Model 653s. Once again, both USAF Personnel and Photos have confirmed Colt Model 653’s in USAF Inventory, however I have not been able to find any official USAF designation or documentation for the 653. I hope to make some more updates this weekend. Thanks, “Capt Richardson” |
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Posted: 3/17/2006 8:21:55 PM EDT
[#36]
Note the black replacement straight handguard ring. |
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Posted: 3/17/2006 8:40:44 PM EDT
[#37]
Yeah, what Scott said, Air Force Mix Master, the slip ring is a dead give away. A sharp eye would also note the 22lr conversion kit. |
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Posted: 3/17/2006 9:31:34 PM EDT
[#38]
I'm not up on my .22 training bolts, so is that the USAF one or the M261? |
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Posted: 3/18/2006 3:03:39 PM EDT
[#39]
Interesting!
Never even thought that something like a .22LR Conversion would come into play! I am not exactly sure that I would call this a “USAF Mixmaster”, though I am not exactly sure what you would call it? Most of the other “Mixmaster Carbines” are based on an existing GAU-5A or GAU-5AA, and they are a real mix of “Old & New” A1, A2, and M4 components. This is a “New” Upper, Lower, and Buttstock (not sure on the handguards). Actually to me it appears that the only “Older” part or component on this Carbine is the Flat Slip Ring (I was not actually sure if it was a Flat Slip Ring or just an optical illusion). Why would there be a completely “New” Upper, Lower, and Buttstock with an “Old” Flat Slip Ring? I have no clue! Is this a “Parts Rebuild”, based on an “Earlier Model”, or is this a “Newer Model” with the “Older Flat Slip Ring” Added? I wonder if the Flat Slip Ring could have been added to make it easier to identify this Carbine as a 22LR Conversion? It would be great to see what the barrel was on this. Of course if this was actually being used as a 22LR, I wonder why the Capt has what appears to be a Blank Firing Adapter in his right hand? Good thing about the USAF Carbines, they always keep things interesting! Thanks, “Capt Richardson” |
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Posted: 3/18/2006 5:00:15 PM EDT
[#40]
Here is another one for you, USMC Recon, listed as a M4:
 If this is an M4, it is obviously an elusive "Fixed Handle M4". If it is not an M4, what is it? Thanks, "Capt Richardson" |
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Posted: 3/19/2006 4:30:18 PM EDT
[#41]
After viewing all the Air Force mixmasters pics you have posted, my conclusion is there are no rules on what Air Force armorers are allowed to assemble. |
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Posted: 3/19/2006 4:32:28 PM EDT
[#42]
The bottom Carbine looks to have Surefire handguards. The top one has the standard handguards. Being it has standard handguards I would bet it is a 727 upper. Not sure about the lowers. |
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Posted: 3/19/2006 5:08:55 PM EDT
[#43]
It is hard to say if the barrel even has the notch, as the mount appears to be that standard one just mounted on a carbine with the front brace exposed. If you look at the exploded diagrams of the M203 mount on the M16A2, the front brace looks identical to the one in the picture, leading me to believe that the barrel is a straight A2 profile.
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Posted: 3/19/2006 5:26:58 PM EDT
[#44]
If the front of the barrel was standard profile, I don't think a M203 would mount, hence the turn down for the mount? |
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Posted: 3/19/2006 5:38:53 PM EDT
[#45]
Well if you go back and look at the pictures of the M203 mounted to the 653 or older guns you'll notice the various ways you could do it. However, looking closer at the picture I can see the step on the bottom rifle, and would assume it to be there on the other one without closer inspection, retracting my previous statement. |
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Posted: 3/19/2006 8:42:12 PM EDT
[#46]
Ah, OK, I follow you, sure 14.5 pencil barrels will take a M203. Those two Carbine did not look like pencil barrels to me. And yes, I can see a step on the lower Carbine. |
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Posted: 3/20/2006 3:25:50 PM EDT
[#47]
On the USAF Carbine,
No question that you can find any combination of parts/components on a USAF Carbine! I am still curious as to whether this is actually a Fixed Handle M4 Upper, or a Model 727 Upper? On the USMC Carbine, This is actually the first photo that I have run across that could possibly show a Pre-M4 Carbine (assuming it is a Model 727) in the possession of US Marines. Numerous resources have confirmed USMC Recon Units did have Pre-M4 Carbines, however finding any photos of them has proven to be impossible. The description that came along with this photo listed the Carbines as “M4s”, however I have found that the “M4” reference has been used to describe a number of Colt Models, to include some that are not really a true M4. These Carbines do have the Heavier Profile Barrels with the Step Cut, however it is not clear if the other M4 components/specifications are present. I am not 100% positive if the newer M4 Handguards would have been used on these if a M203 was installed, or if instead they would have use the earlier Carbine Handguards like you would have found on a Colt Model 727. As pointed out, the closer Carbine obviously has a Surefire Handguard, and it appears to me the farther Carbine has the earlier Carbine Handguards. I am not sure if that can be used to rule out a M4, and rule in a Model 727 or not? This will most likely go down as another unknown, based on the photo alone. The adventure continues! Thanks, “Capt Richardson” |
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Posted: 3/21/2006 5:20:58 AM EDT
[#48]
The upper half is not a Colt configuration, being it has the old slip ring. So no Colt Model number applies. I don't think the upper receiver itself is Colt, looks purple, and has a forge code in a strange place. The mysterious 1994 fix handle issue Colt M4 Carbines would be med gray, and have a CMB upper forge code. Far as using a M4 upper handguard with a M203, don't know, would have to look at pics. Headed out, will be "off-line" for several days................ |
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Posted: 3/21/2006 10:31:22 AM EDT
[#49]
FYI I just notice the photo of the different handguards on page 1 lacks a photo of M4 handguards.
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Posted: 3/21/2006 10:48:27 AM EDT
[#50]
Really, that's because this guide wasn't supposed to deal with M4s and pseudo/proto-M4s, so it wasn't felt to be applicable. |
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