AMMO SAFETY ADVISORY: OLYMPIC SS109- UPDATED

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - AMMO SAFETY ADVISORY: OLYMPIC SS109- UPDATED (Page 1 of 2)

Posted: 9/26/2002 6:42:22 PM EDT

(Posting here by request)

At the last situation meeting I mentioned that someone on this site had almost kb'ed their AR with Olympic SS109. This brought up immediate concern and 6 randomly selected boxes (50 rounds per box) were pulled from storage for me to test. Headstamp: NPA 01 5.56x45.

Using a Wilson .223 Rem case gauge, I found that out of 300 rounds:

283 freely dropped into the case gauge and were of the correct headspace dimensions.

11 would not freely drop into the case gauge, but would fit when pushed in. The rounds would stick in the gauge and might cause a FTE when fired.

6 would not fit the gauge at all, no matter how much pressure on the base was exerted. At .037" over normal headspace dimensions, these round will probably not fully chamber and either cause a FTF or worse a KB, as the bolt would be in an out of battery condition.

UPDATE:
Here is a pic of a FIELD headspace gauge in the cartridge gauge as a comparison.

Note: It appears that this ammo may JUST fit in a 5.56 chamber, but a such a large variance in case dimensions is downright scary.

Posted: 9/26/2002 8:27:45 PM EDT

[#1]

Jesus Christ, thanks for the warning brother. I almost bought some of this the other day. You might have just saved a shooter his gun and his health.

Posted: 9/26/2002 8:52:31 PM EDT

[#2]

I agree the stuff is crap. I have had bad experiences with it. STAY AWAY!!!!

Posted: 9/26/2002 9:01:52 PM EDT

[#3]

That does look more than a little "out of spec".

Posted: 9/27/2002 3:30:25 PM EDT

[#4]

Imbroglio,
Thanks for the heads up. Have some of this ammo at home and will run it through a case gage when I get back there. If QC is this bad to the visible, whats on the inside? Makes you wonder. Does that ammo you checked have any idenity #'s on box? (lot # or something comparable) Also do you know year of manufacture? Thanks!!
Thinman

Posted: 9/30/2002 1:05:58 AM EDT

[#5]

Post what you find out with your ammo. I am curious if there are just bad batches because I keep hearing people say that they didn't have any problems.

Posted: 9/30/2002 4:42:06 PM EDT

[#6]

I will post up but it won't be for another 10 days or so. Gotta work to buy more goodies.

Posted: 10/2/2002 3:35:05 AM EDT

[#7]

Where can you purchase a wilson .223 case gauge? I'm having a hard time finding one.

Thanks

Posted: 10/2/2002 11:04:25 AM EDT

[#8]

Brownells sells them.

Posted: 10/2/2002 11:15:00 AM EDT

[#9]

Thanks for the heads up! That IS scary. I don't have any Olympic SS109 now...but I've got about 1500 rounds of reloads that I'm going to check now just to be sure.

Good job!

Posted: 10/2/2002 10:36:21 PM EDT

[#10]

'Just curious for more info, how do you "almost kb"?
Would the momentum of the bolt have seated these rounds? Did you try these same "failed" rounds to see if the bolt locked when dropped?
I'm really not trolling with a low post count, I just like good science!

Posted: 10/2/2002 11:11:39 PM EDT

[#11]

I never tried because I don't own an AR.

The thing that prompted me to do all of this was a post on the General Discussion board from someone who did have 2 greek ss109 rounds fire out of battery in a Colt. IIRC the first round blew the magazine apart.

Posted: 10/3/2002 4:46:53 AM EDT

[#12]

If memory serves me correctly the AR15 will not fire out of battery due to the firing pin will not reach the primer unless full lock op is achieved.

Also with the case gage is it for 5.56mm or .223 rem I believe there are a few minor differences between them. Also have you put any USGI ball through your gage-I am curious as to what it does-never done it myself so just genuinely curious.

As a final bit, they may be sellling it as surplus for the same reasons as has been pointed out..

Posted: 10/6/2002 8:50:46 PM EDT

[#13]

This sounds stupid but what does "FTF" or "KB" stand for?

Posted: 10/7/2002 7:15:11 AM EDT

[#14]

FTF---Failure to fire

KB----KABOOM!

Posted: 10/7/2002 7:20:32 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
Where can you purchase a wilson .223 case gauge? I'm having a hard time finding one.

Thanks

dillon precision

Cool catalog!!!

Posted: 10/7/2002 8:01:42 AM EDT

[#16]

I had some bad luck that I think I attribute to the Olympic ammo you describe: my brand-new (as of Friday nite) Bushy was short-cycling.

I went down the checklist of mag, cleaning, gas tube, etc.

After a thorough cleaning, and generous lubrication, it cycled like a charm with Ultramax and Remmington (UMC?) ammo in various 20 and 30 round mags.

I have not used or tried any more of the Olympic after reading this post. Has anyone else had general reliability problems with it? Should I just try to return and exchange it?

Posted: 10/8/2002 3:28:38 PM EDT

[#17]

C-B76
Yea, I had some short cycle on me. I was running it through a 16" Bushy at the time. I should be back home this weekend and I'll gauge a bunch of loads and if they spec out, try shooting a little more. I have Olympic from two differet sources and I want to see how they compare to each other. Maybe just a bad lot---maybe not. Like I posted earlier I'll put up a thread with what I find.

Posted: 10/15/2002 4:17:05 PM EDT

[#18]

Finally got back home and got to gauge some Olympic ammo.
I accumulated some friends ammo w/mine and gauged 1500rds.
Of the 1500, 10 did not slide into gauge. Eight of these were because of burrs, most likely from a worn seating die.
The other 2 were just flat out of spec.
Also in the 1500rds I found 1 split case, the bullet itself was tilted in the case.
One thing I did notice and am going to look at more closely is it seems that the brass is trimmed to the bare minimum or slightly less, not much less but warrants a closer look with more powerful magnifying glass and a more presice set of calipers which I will have tomorrow.
I haven't shot any of this ammo lately, but if it specs out I will and post results.

Posted: 10/16/2002 8:08:56 PM EDT

[#19]

I bought 2 boxes of it and haven't had any problems but this is scary! I thought that nato ammo would be good and had certain standards but I guess not, I have a mini 14 and I don't think they will fire out of battery should I be worried about shooting this ss109's?

Posted: 10/19/2002 9:52:28 AM EDT

[#20]

Thought this topic pertains to Olympic SS109 ammo, I found similar problems with Olympic M193, and I posted in this forum about it within the last few months. The search feature is broken or I'd post the link.

Posted: 10/19/2002 9:58:13 AM EDT

[#21]

Big Bear,
My experience has been with the SS109. What did you find with the 193?

Posted: 10/19/2002 12:27:47 PM EDT

[#22]

I found the link.

*CAUTION!* Olympic Greek M193 --UPDATE--

That should have been tacked.

Also, found more problems with Olympic M193 here and here.

Posted: 10/19/2002 8:13:38 PM EDT

[#23]

I have had problems with it also in my Armalite AR15. It short strokes and causes rifle to jam. My rifle runs fine on IMI M855,PMC 55gr,and any Winchester 55gr. These are the only other ammo I use. For what its worth my Beretta and Glock run fine on there 9mm.

Posted: 10/19/2002 8:22:10 PM EDT

[#24]

Big Bear,
Thanks for the reply and links.

Posted: 10/19/2002 10:03:51 PM EDT

[#25]

I just received my case gauge from Midway today and tested my 300 rounds of ammo, and I found 24 rounds which were out of spec and another 21 rounds which were tight in the gauge but would fit if forced. So I'm going to dump the 45 rounds in question which means out of 6 boxes I had 1 box of bad ammo. This is why I knew I should have only purchased IMI or Winchester. It's not the cost that pisses me off but the QC for an item which could endanger the user when fired.

My advice - If you can not find any other SS109 and you're only option is this ammo. Please check your ammo before using it in your rifle.

Posted: 11/16/2002 5:32:21 AM EDT

[#26]

I just received an "Ammo Day," adver-email from Kiesler's that includes the ammo below; is this the same ammunition?

www.kieslersonline.com/product/ko_itemdetail.asp?prod=OLYMSS109&urlid=email111502

Olympic SS109, 223Rem, 62GR, FMJ, 50Rds

223 Remington
62 Grain, Full Metal Jacket
Green Tip - Steel Core Bullet
Brass Cases
50 Rounds per Box
20 Boxes per Case
BACK IN STOCK!

Stock# Description Price

OLYMSS109 Olympic SS109, 223Rem, 62GR, FMJ, 50Rds
$9.95

O'DubhGhaill

Posted: 11/16/2002 5:42:17 AM EDT

[#27]

Yep, that's the stuff.

As I stated some while back I'm going to shoot up some of this ammo and report back. Unfortunatly work has forced me to be away from home more than usual lately. I will get it done when possible.

Posted: 11/26/2002 5:44:43 PM EDT

[#28]

Well,

I had already purchased 1000 rounds of this ammo from Midway before reading this post. I went out to the range and fired 50 rounds yesterday. I had 3 rounds fail to cycle the action on my Bushmaster, I also had one round fail to fire and when extracted it has a nice dent in the primer. I ordered a case gauge today and will gauge all this ammo before I shoot anymore of it. Needless to say, this will be the last Olympic ammo I buy!

Posted: 11/30/2002 9:18:53 PM EDT

[#29]

Am I the only one that is thoroughly UNDERWHEALMED by this 'revelation'?

I mean you put a 5.56 SS109 cartridge in a .223 (i.e. SAAMI) gauge and it fails. Well DUH! Isn't that what the SAAMI warning was all about ([url]http://www.saami.org/unsafe3.htm[/url]) - heck perfectly good AR15 with a proper 5.56 MILITARY chamber can fail with the SAAMI spec field gauge (yet pass the Military one).

As far as I'm concerned this is a non-issue until you use a gauge that is to MILITARY 5.56 spec. I've run lots of this ammo through my Chrony and it always performs to the US Military's requirements for velocity and accuracy. If it was dangerouse (as is implied) it would show up as 'overpressure' either in overly high velocieits, poped primers, or flattened primers - none of which I've seen.

I know most of you know the difference between the SAAMI spec and M16 spec chambers - why then would you test 'military' ammo with SAAMI gauges?

Posted: 12/4/2002 2:22:51 PM EDT

[#30]

Forest,

The CASE guage for .223 and 5.56 are identical, because the specs for the exterior of the cases are identical. The CHAMBER specs for 5.56 are different from .223, and headspace distance will vary between gun designs (the SAW, for example, will chamber a military Field guage when new, by design).

The problem as reported by Imbroglio is legit.

-Troy

Posted: 12/4/2002 5:28:17 PM EDT

[#31]

I got my case gauge last week and cauged all 950 rounds of my Olympic ammo. 32 rounds would not fit in the gauge, some much worse that the picture in the original post at the begining of this thread. Do yourselves a favor and stay away from this ammo. I won't be buying anymore of it.

Chris

Posted: 12/4/2002 10:43:55 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
As far as I'm concerned this is a non-issue until you use a gauge that is to MILITARY 5.56 spec. I've run lots of this ammo through my Chrony and it always performs to the US Military's requirements for velocity and accuracy. If it was dangerouse (as is implied) it would show up as 'overpressure' either in overly high velocieits, poped primers, or flattened primers - none of which I've seen.

I know most of you know the difference between the SAAMI spec and M16 spec chambers - why then would you test 'military' ammo with SAAMI gauges?

View Quote

Geez, who the hell pissed in your cornflakes?

FYI I do have a 5.56 field gauge.

RIFLE, 5.56 MM, M16, GAGE HEADSPACE, [b]1.4730 (MAX)[/b], FIELD SERVICE

The .223 Field Gauge is at [b]1.474[/b]

In the cartridge gauge, the 5.56 FIELD gauge protrudes just a hair over the upper step.

In comparison .223 GO is at 1.464 (even with the lower step), which means the out of spec rounds are in the neighborhood of 1.501.

Will these cause a KB in AR15's? There is a remote possibilty, but most likely will jam the bolt in a out of battery condition that may required the buttstock slam to clear. There ARE reports of the 55gr Olympic being too short in headspace dimensions (less than 1.464) that HAVE had headspace seperations and the resulting damage to the guns. The whole point is Olympic has the worst quality control that I have ever seen. In the small sample of 300 rounds I had tested 17 (6%) were out of spec. Trusting a 6 in 100 defect rate in something that is supposed to contain a 50,000psi controlled explosion isn't my idea of safe.

Posted: 12/9/2002 2:05:16 PM EDT

[#33]

Troy,
Case gauge may be identical - but does not the case gauge also take into account the bullet.

Is not the bullet (particulary the 62gr SS109) the potential source of the case being pushed back out of the gauge? (looking at the specs of the two chambers - the throat area is the primary difference and the military one allows for a larger projectile.

Again - I've tested lots of this ammo and never had an over-pressure issue nor a failure to go into battery issue (which is what I'd expect if these were real problems).

Is there a variance in the cases? Yes - I'd think Imbroglio made that point very well. Is it a problem? Not if you've got a M16 type chamber IMHO.

Posted: 12/15/2002 7:55:35 PM EDT

[#34]

I bought a case of this stuff when Ammoman didn't get the Lake City Q3131/SS1-9 that he thought was coming in and offered it as a substitute. Out of 1000 rounds I had about 30 not fit in the headspace guage. They were too long and wouldn't go in no matter how hard I pushed. There shouldn't be ANY deviation in the specs, no matter if they are metric or inch. The ammo also short cycled my Bushmaster 20 and Rockriver 16 inch uppers. Accuracy was OK though but I have decided to pull the bullets in the bad cases and not shoot any of the rest. What a waste of $200.

Posted: 12/18/2002 8:37:54 AM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Troy,
Case gauge may be identical - but does not the case gauge also take into account the bullet.

View Quote

The Wilson gauge mesures case only.

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/456614
The link to the gauges on L.E.Wilson's page doesn't quite work, but it they fix it, it's here
http://www.lewilson.com

Posted: 12/18/2002 8:38:39 AM EDT

[#36]

Opps. Double post.

Posted: 12/24/2002 8:18:22 PM EDT

[#37]

I just bought 1000rds of this junk off cheapasdirt.com for 240 bucks. I'll see if I can get a refund, but it's unlikely. I could have bought 1000 round case of IMI ss109 with free shipping for $199!!

Posted: 12/27/2002 11:22:53 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
I just bought 1000rds of this shit off cheapasdirt.com for 240 bucks. I'll see if I can get a refund, but it's unlikely. 6% bad ammo rate!?!!! I could have bought 1000 round case of IMI ss109 with free shipping for $199!!

View Quote

Just from that, why did you order the higher priced ammo? Are you saying that that is the IMI M855 ammo? If so, WHERE are you finding it for $199 shipped?

Posted: 12/30/2002 9:16:45 AM EDT

[#39]

I tried this stuff. No way ! It is a big greek joke on the US. they gave us thier garbage. Some rounds won't chamber., When they do they will not extract properly. The rest of mine are headed to the bullet puller. I tried it in 3 ARs.

Posted: 1/8/2003 12:37:58 PM EDT

[#40]

Olympic .223 will fail to cycle my Sporter Target 50% of the time, regardless of mag type.

I tried "blind" tests by loading mags with several types of .223 cartridges, all 55 grain (Wolf, SA surplus, IMI, and Olympic) from a mixture of cartridges in a box. The weapon stopped running when it came to the Olympic, but cycled fine on the others.

A separate box of green tip Oly did the same thing. Felt recoil and sharpness of the action is less with Oly than with the SA, Wolf, and IMI.

That said, what did not function in the Colt went through my .223 Saiga like a case of the runs. No failures of any kind, and I attribute the difference to a slightly larger chamber and a MUCH shorter (read: lower volume) gas system. I'm not saying that the AK is better, I'm just pointing out the differences.

I use what Olympic I still have in the AK only.

Noah

Posted: 1/9/2003 5:22:46 AM EDT

[#41]

After reading all these posts about the Olympic SS109 problems after buying a case of Olympic SS109, I purchased a .223 Wilson case gauge to check the remaining rounds that I had not fired. I had fired 1 box (50 rds) prior to reading the posts, and had no problems firing or cycling in a Colt CAR-15 w/11.5" barrel. Of the remaining 950 rds, almost all fit in the case gauge easily, but a few (7-10 rds) took minor finger pressure (not much)to fully insert them. Of the ones that took minor finger pressure to fully insert, I noticed some minor scratches in the cases, which probably caused them to require the extra pressure. These rounds did not require much pressure to fully insert them into the case gauge. Maybe the case I have is a different lot? The headstamp is
"NPA 00 5.56x45mm", and the only numbers that I can find that resemble a lot number are on the main outer box that contains all of the individual boxes. That number is "4G/426/S/00" and "GR/0.I/IPT/7811". Not sure if that is the lot number.

Posted: 1/9/2003 12:43:20 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Troy,
Case gauge may be identical - but does not the case gauge also take into account the bullet.

Is not the bullet (particulary the 62gr SS109) the potential source of the case being pushed back out of the gauge? (looking at the specs of the two chambers - the throat area is the primary difference and the military one allows for a larger projectile.

View Quote

No, the bullet type and length have no bearing on the case guage. A case guage measures both the headspace (length between the case shoulder and case head) and the over-all length of the case. If either of these is a problem, they will be a problem regardless of bullet seat depth or bullet shape. And the amount of variation in this ammo is probably 10 times over the allowable tolerances in some cases.

There can, of course, be problems with short leades and long-seated bullets, but that is a different and unrelated problem.

-Troy

Posted: 1/12/2003 1:00:31 PM EDT

[#43]

Wow...looks like I should have visited this site a few weeks ago, before I bought a case of Olympic SS109 ammo. Hard to believe that a NATO country like Greece can produce such ammo with poor quality control. But then again, that goes with the recent suspension of 1.3 million rounds of M82 7.62mm NATO blank ammo from Lake City AAP due to reports of M855 bullets found inside the crimped case of the M82 round. I guess Greece is not immune from having their ammunition GOCO plants operated by the lowest bidder.

Posted: 1/13/2003 5:26:08 PM EDT

[#44]

I also have olympic arms ss109(in the orange an white box) headstamped NPA 00 5.56x45..no lot number i can find...I first bought 50 rds at a gun show and shot it to make sure i liked it and it seemed fine.Then i got 500 rds latter and have shot about 50 rds, again...no problem...
I dont have a case gauge,so i guess im a little worried here..

Posted: 1/20/2003 1:16:27 PM EDT

[#45]

Well, guys, it looks like Olympic is responding (in a VERY positive way) to these reports. Your feedback has been helpful, as there is an investigation underway to determine the cause of the problem as well as new QC proceedures being put into place. There are additional details that will become known in a few days as well.

All of this is good news for all of us.

-Troy

Posted: 1/20/2003 1:52:22 PM EDT

[#46]

Thanks for the 411. As I am going to buy my first 1K rounds here shortly.

Posted: 1/20/2003 4:03:38 PM EDT

[#47]

It's good they are looking into it. But what are they going to do about the 600+ rounds I have loaded on stripper clips

Posted: 1/24/2003 1:19:07 AM EDT

[#48]

Awhile back I bought a case of this stuff from the sportsmansguide I took it out of the boxs and put it in 50 cal cans for storage...I just sent them an email because coustmer service is not open now...but I sure hope they agree to take this stuff back....The biggest problem with that is they are still saleing it...It was in their latest catalog..

Tim