Almost 2 weeks ago, “Austrian” and I were able to take my new 6.8x43 SPC upper (16.5” barrel) and several boxes of ammo to the range for a trial run.  We brought along a chronograph and a 3x24 Compact ACOG to test for accuracy at various ranges.  Before I go on, [b]I need it to be known that the ammo used was from a pre-production run manufactured by Remington[/b].  Unbeknownst to the two of us, it had some, shall we say…”teething” problems which have reportedly since been corrected.

[b]Weather conditions:[/b]

71F
21% Humidity
Winds out of the north @ 2mph.

[b]Elevation: [/b]

~ 100ft ASL


First off, we took 15 shots through a chronograph, 10 being for warm up.

[b]Velocities[/b] for the remaining 5 were as follows:

2621 fps
2586 fps (low)
2596 fps
2682 fps (high)
2596 fps

Avg:  2616 fps
SD:  38 fps
ES:  96 fps

Next, we decided to try our luck with groups at 200 yds.  After 20 rounds and about a mile of walking, we had YET to hit the target.  Talk about embarrassing.  We couldn’t figure out what the deal was, so we decided to hit the 100 yard range.  It was then that we realized there was a problem.  The rifle (or ammo) wasn’t grouping…it was patterning.  The target almost looked like we had shot it with a 12ga 00 Buck.

After a more careful calling of each others shots, we were able to whittle the groups down.  Austrian was able to get a 5.04” group and I was able to get a 4.8” group.  This certainly was NOT based on any skill.

[img]www.btammolabs.com/68/groups.jpg[/img]

The two of us went home rather frustrated with the whole situation.  I either had an extremely expensive upper with a major problem or there was a fault with the ammo.  After several phone calls and e-mails, it was determined that the ammo was the culprit, and Remington already knew of the problem.  Apparently, Remington skimped a bit to save money on the pre-production ammo.  They used a dissimilar powder mix which resulted in clumping…thus inconsistent burn rates (see below).  They also had a problem with seating the bullets, resulting in bullets that were NOT concentric.  Obviously, this will effect accuracy to a large degree.

We are still waiting to get our hands on some of the “fixed” ammo.  Rest assured that we will test it as soon as we can.


[center] [img]www.btammolabs.com/68/68rifle.jpg[/img]
[i]Built by MSTN[/i]


[img]www.btammolabs.com/68/rounds.jpg[/img]
[i]Close up of the 115 Hornady load[/i]


[img]www.btammolabs.com/68/brass.jpg[/img]
[i]Close up of headstamp[/i]


[img]www.btammolabs.com/68/box.jpg[/img]
[i]The offending ammo is in a very plain white box[/i]


[img]www.btammolabs.com/68/cartridge.jpg[/img]
[i]Broken down components.  Bullet is exactly 115gr.  Powder charge is 25.2gr.[/i]


[img]www.btammolabs.com/68/powder.jpg[/img]
[i]Note the clumped powder circled in red[/i]

[/center]


Any questions can be answered by Austrian or myself.

Wow, look at all the different shapes of powder.

Funny, had the same problem (4-6" groups @ 100y) with a .308 bolt-gun and Black Hills 168gr & 175gr red box SMK.  Australian surplus .308 was 1-2" groups consistently.

Man!  That's like my Chinese SKS.  Good post, let us know how it works out.  Are they going to replace the 'beta' ammo?

They want me to send it back to them.  Too bad I already shot 80% of the ammo trying to get a group.  They'll only replace what I send back.  40 rounds isn't worth the hassle to me.

Didn't someone post a link here for all the dope on the 6.8mm round? I swear I saw it somewhere but I can't find it.

Brou OUCH! thats gotta hurt for a first outing cant wait to see how it does with good ammo. Keep us posted! PS I have now lost all respect for you after seeing youre in HK USP Crowd

Interesting....
Never seen groups like that before

It was the most frustrating thing.  I was off the entire day including being unable to put GP90 rounds on paper at 200 yards over iron sights on Brou's BEAUTIFUL Sig 550SP (a rifle I literally LIVED with for 24 months).

I was pleased to hear that the 6.8 performance at least was ammo related.  What was really funny is the opposing direction of the group trend.  I'll point out that if these were stock charts I'd be much richer.

Still, I was so stung by the bad day that I ran off and grabbed a Sig 551 last week and managed to shoot a 9 round 1.5 MOA group at 150 meters over irons.  (Still got it!)

I have no clue what the problem was.  It was Jinx Day at the range apparently.  (Or it could have been the distraction of the very distracting Ms. Brouhaha).

Other 6.8 feedback:

Weight of the upper is significant.  Hopefully someone will come up with a good field weight carbine upper that is a bit lighter.  18" - 16" seems to be an excellent length logistically.

I dislike floated tube uppers usually, but this one wasn't bad.

Function seemed fine, there were some magazine related problems but when native 6.8 mags come out those should go away.

Felt recoil on the 6.8 is definitely heavier than with 5.56 (duh) but by no means was the weapon unmanageable.  Followups weren't bad.

I look forward to seeing some gel shots.  With any luck my sister might be back in the gel pulverizing business in a month or so and I know she wants to shoot 6.8.

New guns and new rounds are just like new cars.  I love to let somebody else buy them when they are shiney, new and expensive to work the bugs out me [:D]

Thanks brou [beer]

Hmmm interesting-I went out and shot my two today and did not have those accuracy problems. Might be your ammo (I have a different lot than you) as you say or possibly your barrel or barrel twist rate. Go to 25 and shoot and see where it is at.
I and 3 others fired today and averaged out of long barrel 3/4 MOA at 100M (3x3 shot groups: center to center measurements each) with about a 12lb trigger and 4x scope. Shorter gun shot a little worse but had Iron sights and same cruddy trigger was alittle over 1.5 MOA (but that was mostly me)-same gun from a machine rest was 3" at 300 yds (3x10 shot groups center to center measurement).

I guess you have never shot a Ruger Mini-30.

Could you provide some more feedback on your magazines you used? Looks like a 20 round 5.56 - how many 6.8 did you get in it?  How did it feed?

Thanks!

It is a 20rd USGI.  I can only get about 5 rounds into it before having trouble.

I plan on trying a British steel 5.56.  

PRI should have mags for the 6.8 available soon.

Thanks for the heads-up.  

I also heard that the steel 7.62x39mm mags built for the AR worked.  Some guy said he could get 25 rounds in the mags designed for 20 7.62 rounds - they look like normal 30 rd 5.56 mags with only one rib towards the front.  CTD sold them for $20 each.  I don't have an upper or ammo to confirm or deny this reputed "fact" but have a couple of the mags...  Remember, everything on the internet, like television, is 100% true!  LOL!

Interesting.

edited to remove question that has already been answered.

Not even in full production and they are already messing with the ammo. Sounds like the early M16 catastrophe all over again.

It does not matter that you shot the ammo. They should reimburse you for it in full, along with your testing costs.

Shame on Remington!

I've been the guinea pig before and it's not fun. I'm going to tread more carefully down this 6.8x43 path now. Keep the reports coming.

In Remington's defense, I doubt they ever intended the White box pre-production ammo that Brou shot, or the yellow & green boxed preproduction ammo that I shot, to ever be sold comercially and used by end users. It was R&D/Protoype ammo.  The PRODUCTION Remington ammo, which is yet to be released, should have all the bugs worked out.

Perhaps in future tests of pre-production ammo such as this it may be wise to pull a couple of bullets and examine the powder before going to the range, yes?

Steve "Hindsight up the ass" G.

Here ya go, Wes.  Thanks for sacrificing your good ammo.

Remington has FIXED the problem.  Again, my stuff was a pre-production batch, and I DID say that the new stuff was supposed to be much better.  This pic proves that to be the case.

[img]www.btammolabs.com/68/group68.jpg[/img]

okay guys,

I got alot of questions, and I know its still early in the game.

1.does the 6.8mm round fragment and if so out to what range?

2.how much will a case of 6.8 mm run?

3. how much do you think it will cost to convert 30 round GI mags?

i've been doing some research on the net on the 6.8 mm alot of deffent stories floating around out there.
thanks in advance for any info.
John

1. Yes, pretty darned far.
2. 200 round cases of Remington match will run at most $160, which is about the same cost as Fed Gold Match. IIRC, the cheaper Hornady OTMs will be at a little less than $120 per case of 200. That's retail pricing, btw.
3. $80 for a new mag body and follower. I think this also incldes the floorplate, or mag spring?

-Cap'n

wow i'm better off going with a fal,
thanks capn for the info

1. Unknown. as shown in this thread, there are such wide variations in the ammo, that some 6.8SPC may perform very well, some may not.  I'm looking forward to the accuracy & gel tests with the PRODUCTION ammo. the testing with handloads and preproductio ammo is just an indicator of possible performance.

2. About $14.00 a box

3. I read $70.00, for a replacement 5.56mm mag that also happes to work really well with 6.8SPC.

thanks for the info,
i can't afford to pay 70 bucks a mag to upgrade my ar . shame though i do love the weapon system. maybe if the ban sunsets all bets will be off on mag prices till then i think i'll go with a fal build.
thanks guys for the info.

Were you able to get some Remington production ammo?  Did you run it through a chronograph or do any gel shoots? I'm very interested in how the production ammo really performs compared to the handloads used in the calibers developement.

I'm leary of new calibers. I look back at how the early preproduction .357Mag ammo was used to kill many big & dangerous game animals. But the production ammo is barely suitable for deer hunting and self defense.

I haven't, but others I know have.  The powder problem is fixed.  The standard deviation is much better.  The non-concentric bullet problem has been fixed.  And, as you can see from the last pic I posted, Wes Grant got a .75" group using factory ammo out of the same upper that was getting 5" groups.

As soon as I get my upper back and get some factory loads (and some handloads) I'll post a follow-up.  Now I just need to find load data :)

Tatjana didn't help with this shoot? Whats she up to these days?

I have one question, regarding the 6.8 SPC, and I would greatly appreciate it if somebody here could answer it for me. I've made several bulletin board and yahoo searches on the 6.8 in an effort to try and answer my own question but, unfortunately, I keep coming up with conflicting answers.

My query has to do with the 6.8 SPC's compatability (or maybe a lack thereof) with standard USGI magazines. Will the 6.8 remington SPC funtion, with 100% reliability, out of standard USGI aluminum M4/M16 magazines (which would each be loaded with 25 to 28 rounds of ammo)? I have read some material on some bulletin boards that claims the 6.8 will work just fine out of standard USGI mags. I have also read some material that totally and completely contradicts the aforementioned claims. So, which is it? Will the 6.8 SPC work (with little or no magazine modifications) in USGI M16 magazines or not?

Thanks in advance.

Taking a well deserved break.  She'll be around in due time.





No.

One source of exterior ballistics info for the 6.8x43 round can be found at http://www.constantforce.com/index4.htm which has comparison plots of the 6.8 vs other assault and battle rifle rounds.  It shows the 6.8 to be superior to the 5.56 and ak47/ak74 rounds but inferior to the 7.62/30-06 rounds.  About what you would expect based on case capacity.

75-77gr 5.56, 6.8SPC, and 150gr .308 have almost identical trajectories:



-z

To all that have been playing with this round, and specifically Wes that is selling two different barrel lengths, is there any advantage to the 18.5" barrel length?
All the tests I have seen have been with the 16, and I am curious if the round has been optomized for that barrel.
Second (and minor) question, what's the recoil like?

Nick

Why 18"?  Velocity!  Velocity!  Velocity!

Recoil with the OPSINC 4-port brake is not unlike  an unbraked 5.56 (semi).

-z

[b]18" Barrel Results[/b]

18" barrel from MSTN.  Remington pre-production ammo 115gr.

Today was 55F, altitude is about 5000'.

Average of about 10 shots was 2695fps. Stddev = 31.95fps.

Didn't bother to check accuracy based on known problems with this experimental ammo batch.   Burned about 70 rounds into once-fired brass.

[url=http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Shoot-2004-04-02/?medium=117_1791_img.jpg][img]http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Shoot-2004-04-02/small/117_1791_img.jpg[/img] [ link to larger image ][/url]

[url=http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Shoot-2004-04-02/?medium=118_1808_img.jpg][img]http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/DigiCam/Shoot-2004-04-02/small/118_1808_img.jpg[/img] [ link to larger image ][/url]

The growth off the receiver is the brass catcher from 3GunGear.  It works just "ok", but I wouldn't want to depend on it to catch 100% of brass and not jam.  It beats searching for every last piece on the ground, though.

-z

Zak, what are those mags you are using, and where did you get them?

Nick

Commando_Guy,

The 30's are just Orlites that I got from Sportsmansguide for like $9 each a few years ago.   I painted some with Aluma-Hyde II for testing purposes.

The short one is a clear plastic 10-round mag that came with my JP rifle.

Neither work particularly well with 6.8, though.

-z