Your House Gun and what is it loaded with? - Page 5

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Your House Gun and what is it loaded with? (Page 5 of 5)

Posted: 8/24/2007 9:07:41 PM EDT

[#1]

I'll make one last comment in regards to overpenetration:

Find the number of cases where someone has been injured because someone missed an armed assailant and the bullet went on to hit an innocent bystander behind a barrier and then compare the number of those incidences to the number of people who have gotten hurt/killed because their ammunition didn't perform properly.

Posted: 8/25/2007 8:18:25 AM EDT

[#2]

Black Tallon 45acp for the Sig, Gold Dot for the 9mm, and Black Hills Hollow Point For the AR.

Posted: 8/25/2007 12:42:02 PM EDT

[#3]

200gr +P Corbons in the XD45 and reloads using Hornady 75gr BTHP in the RRA Tactical Entry.

Posted: 8/25/2007 8:41:50 PM EDT

[#4]

www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/shotguns/shotgun_ammunition.html

What is interesting to note is the relatively poor sectional density of the 1 oz foster style slug. Often you will read stories about the "massive over-penetrating potential" of these styled slugs...looking at the graph on sectional density you'll notice that the 1 oz 12 gauge slug does indeed have significantly more sectional density as compared to buckshot, but keep in mind that it's sectional density of 0.1166 is significantly less than that of a 50 or 55 grain .223 bullet you're likely to find fielded in many defensive carbines. Sectional density of larger caliber bullets is even greater (ie: 0.226 for a 150 grain .30 caliber bullet). Given these considerations, from the standpoint of over penetration we feel that a 1oz slug equipped 12 gauge deployed in an urban environment is not nearly as dangerous as a centerfire carbine, especially when considering the soft lead used in the construction of these slugs and their comparatively lower muzzle velocity

therefore: shotgun>carbine
not even Einstein can refute that

Posted: 8/25/2007 8:47:01 PM EDT

[#5]

Kel-Tec P3AT: Always in my back pocket.
Glock 34 w/ TLR-1 mounted: Kept in my nightstand.
Mossberg 500A w/ ATI Overfolder Stock: Propped inside the master bedroom closet door.

All of my pistols are loaded with Speer Gold Dot. The shotgun is loaded with 00 Buck.

If I am not home, these weapons are secured in my safe. I worked a case in 1999 where a man, his 15-yr old daughter, and his 12-yr old son were killed after unexpectedly walking in on two teenage theives. The previously unarmed burglars became murderers because Dad decided to leave his .357 laying in a unsecured dresser drawer. It left a lasting impression on my early in my LEO career - so to this day, I keep it on lockdown if I am not home.

Posted: 8/25/2007 8:56:42 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/shotguns/shotgun_ammunition.html

What is interesting to note is the relatively poor sectional density of the 1 oz foster style slug. Often you will read stories about the "massive over-penetrating potential" of these styled slugs...looking at the graph on sectional density you'll notice that the 1 oz 12 gauge slug does indeed have significantly more sectional density as compared to buckshot, but keep in mind that it's sectional density of 0.1166 is significantly less than that of a 50 or 55 grain .223 bullet you're likely to find fielded in many defensive carbines. Sectional density of larger caliber bullets is even greater (ie: 0.226 for a 150 grain .30 caliber bullet). Given these considerations, from the standpoint of over penetration we feel that a 1oz slug equipped 12 gauge deployed in an urban environment is not nearly as dangerous as a centerfire carbine, especially when considering the soft lead used in the construction of these slugs and their comparatively lower muzzle velocity

therefore: shotgun>carbine
not even Einstein can refute that

Because, you know, ammunition is the only thing relavent to choosing a home defense weapon

Posted: 8/26/2007 12:58:56 AM EDT

[#7]

I use what I am given. That happens to be

Hydra shock .40
Gold dot 9mm
gold dot .38 +P
Federal tactical TBBC 62 grain .223
00 buck (still have some old #1)
Brenneke slugs

I had zero say in the choices but other that the .40 round they all seem solid.

Joe

Posted: 8/27/2007 10:50:56 AM EDT

[#8]

.38 SWCHP FBI load in S&W 65 & Rossi 5-shot

9mm Win +P+ 115gr. in Taurus 92

12 ga Rem reduced recoil slug (on top + Win Reduced Recoil 00-buck behind it in the tube) in Win 1300

Hirtenberger (sp?) 147gr JSP .308 in HK91.

XM193 in RRA M4gery.

Depends where I'm at in the house what is the "house" gun. And pistols are only to fight with until I get to the long guns.

John

Posted: 8/27/2007 3:05:54 PM EDT

[#9]

height=8

Quoted:
height=8

Quoted:
I also wanted to address the data provided by http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/gelatin_testing/buck_4_fed/gelatin_buckshot_4.html shows the following data:

Measured Average Permenant Cavity: 14.0 inches (35.6.8cm)
Block #1 Calibration BB Velocity: 608 fps
Block #1 Calibration BB Penetration: 12.4 cm

The calibration standard is 590fps (+/- 15fps) with a penetration depth of 8.5cm (+/- 1.0 cm). The penetration of the calibration BB to 12.4cm skews the average penetration depth to the + side (thanks to DocGKR for pointing out my oversight).

I'll see if Duncan McPherson's book has a correction factor based on the actual calibration BB velocity, from which the standardized penetration depth can be extrapolated.

This is a quote from tacticalshotgun.com
www.tacticalshotgun.ca/ballistics_shotgun.html

height=8

"When Dr. Martin Fackler of the Letterman Army Institute of Research developed what are now the standardized gelatin testing protocols it was with the intent of being able to better simulate gunshot wounds in the human animal. The primary objective of this ballistic testing methodology created by Dr. Fackler was a standard of reference for use in the comparison and evaluation of varied surgical corrections and treatments.

The preparation of ordinance gelatin is typically held to a very specific procedure. Once the gelatin has been prepared, it is then calibrated immediately before use to demonstrate that it falls within a relatively narrow window of physical properties designed for block to block consistency. This calibration process is important for wound ballistic researchers as it sets a standard by which observations from one gelatin block can be meaningfully compared to those observed in another block. The calibration standard is typically 8.5cm of penetration by a steel BB with an initial velocity of 590fps.

If the penetration of the steel BB at 590fps does not meet the calibration standard, all is not lost though as excellent data collected by Duncan MacPherson allows correlation and correction provided the velocity and mass of the BB fall within the calibration protocol. tacticalworks.ca gelatin testing has all been done in accordance with calibration and correction standards established by both Dr. Fackler and Mr. MacPherson. "

I finally found the relevant data.

First of all, the impact velocity of the BB exceeds 590fps. The correction factor to normalize the BB penetration depth to 590fps is approximately 0.4cm, so that makes an even 12cm @590fps.

Next is the calculation to adjust the penetration depth. This is given by the following equation:

dX = (XBB - 8.5) * a2 * a3 * (W/d^2)

where dx is the adjustment to the original penetration depth, W is the weight of the BB in grains (5.25 for a typical BB), and d is the diameter in mm (0.177" * 25.4mm/").

a2 is a dimensionless parameter determined in a lookup table which corresponds to the calibration BB's depth of 12cm as 0.345

a3 is dependent on the shape of the bullet. This value for a sphere is 15.6 (by comparison, a JHP has a factor of 8.4 for a3)

Plugging in all the values, you get:

dX = (12 - 8.5) * 0.345 * 15.6 * ( 5.25 / (0.177" * 25.4)^2 )

or dX = 4.9"

So the adjustment factor of 4.9" brings the average penetration depth of the #4 buck loads to just over NINE AND A HALF inches in properly calibrated gelatin - a far cry from the 14.5" advertised.

[Edited to add] The 3" magnum #4 Buck load obviously makes the proper penetration depth - I don't even have to go through the math on that one, since the calibration BB is close to spec in the first place and the 15.5" penetration depth will not have to be adjusted much. It's just that in that case, you won't be buying yourself much in the way - if any - protection from overpenetration if that's your primary concern.

Zhukov, am I understanding that you are saying a 3" magnum 4B round has more penetration than a standard 2 3/4" round? If so, why? (sincere question) A standard round usually has higher velocity than a 3" round but the 3" has more shot. In my experience, that may be true at close range due to the shot column acting effectively as a solid which would have more short range terminal energy (Mass x Velocity).

Posted: 8/27/2007 5:10:57 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Zhukov, am I understanding that you are saying a 3" magnum 4B round has more penetration than a standard 2 3/4" round? If so, why? (sincere question) A standard round usually has higher velocity than a 3" round but the 3" has more shot. In my experience, that may be true at close range due to the shot column acting effectively as a solid which would have more short range terminal energy (Mass x Velocity).

Wow - I actually did not know that. You learn something new every day...

I just went to the Federal's website and confirmed what you said. The 2 3/4 does indeed have higher velocity. Without knowing for sure, here is what I'm guessing...

In Duncan McPherson's book, he talks about the spacing of shots in ballistic gelatin. This is an issue of how big the block needs to be, and how wide shots with pistol caliber ammo need to be spaced (if you want to shoot a block more than once for economic reasons). His experimental data shows that shots spaced too close together skew the data due to the already destroyed gelatin allowing easier passage for subsequent shots. While it skews the data if you're trying to collect data for INDIVIDUAL shots, it is a valid phenomena when talking about multiple simultaneous impacts from shotgun loads. The same behavior more than likely applies to human tissue, as the previous buckshot pellets "pave the way" for subsequent pellets.

Posted: 8/27/2007 6:02:24 PM EDT

[#11]

I hadn't thought of it that way.....that's interesting and makes sense. My thought (and experience) was that at close range, the shot are traveling very close together and/or actually touching. At impact, the column is actually acting like a virtual slug which provides surprising penetration far beyond what one would typically expect. This is exactly what I was referring to early on in this thread as my experience with 4B at close range is as described above. Your thought would explain the shot behavior. Thank you.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Your House Gun and what is it loaded with? (Page 5 of 5)

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