I have seen this question asked and "answered" over and over. I decided to answer it for myself.

Materials:

Colt HBAR 6601 AR-15A2
PMC 55gr .223 ammunition
M855 Winchester ammunition
Hornady 40gr VMAX ammuition (advertised at 3800fps)
3/8" thick mild steel plate
Spray paint
Pine 2x4's that have sat outside for approx. 2 months.

I have heard it said that the velocity of M193 or .223 55gr will allow it to out penetrate M855 within 25-100yards in steel. After that, the M855's steel core starts to matter.

So I put that "conventional wisdom" (Velocity is what penetrates) to the test. Here are my test results:






PS. Shooting offhand with A2 sights at 140 yards at dusk was a challenge, but I managed to tag the plate twice (out of something like 6 or 7 shots )

I use to shoot STEEL PLATES  but that was in 2001

At one time I tested out

SANAT BARBRA SS109 ( most accurate SS109/M855 Ive shot)

S&B SS109 Hoter than Lake city/IMI/Win M855

WIN M855  came on links and hot

IMI M855  

Lake City M855      (POLICE TRADE IN Very hard to get)


all shot threw the 1/2 INCH steel plate at 50yards

M193 can do a number on steel Plates !!  

M193 AND CAN DO ANYTHING M855 CAN DO AT Short range

Is the PMC 5.56mm M193 Brown box??

or 223 55gr FMJ


M193 5.56mm Has more FPS +  200FPS

Quoted: Is the PMC 5.56mm M193 Brown box?? or 223 55gr FMJ M193 5.56mm Has more FPS +  200FPS

It was .223 commercial stuff. The 40GR VMAX has another 4-500fps on M193, velocity mattered less than bullet construction as you can see.

Quoted: Quoted: Is the PMC 5.56mm M193 Brown box?? or 223 55gr FMJ M193 5.56mm Has more FPS +  200FPS It was .223 commercial stuff. The 40GR VMAX has another 4-500fps on M193, velocity mattered less than bullet construction as you can see.

Isn't the vmax bullet ballistic tipped?

I'd like to see handloads with copper solids.

I haven't done it yet but I will one of these days.

Velocity can't make up completely for bullet construction but it is quite amazing at what it can do.   Best to have BOTH though.


190grn Sierra Match Kings from a 300WinMag making a divot in 1 1/4 inch mild steel so thick you can lose the entire tip of your index finger including not seeing your nail.   162grn M2 AP through the same plate and suddenly you have tips poking through the back side of the plate(with 1 having completely penetrated at 50-75 yards).    BUT, move to 150grn M63 AP and you suddenly have the bullets failing at the same distances not even bumping the back side of the plate which was something the M2 did easily at a lower velocity.

Velocity steps were around 2900fps for the 190grn SMK Gold Medal, 3200fps for the 163grn M2, and 3400fps for the 150grn M63.


There's a lot of variables to consider.     One of these days, I'm gonna do the 125grn Barnes copper solid from the 300WinMag and see what it does just for shits & giggles.    Same for 5.56, there's a copper solid out there in the 50ish grn weight range, just checked they have a new 45grn banded solid.  They also have a close out on the 50grn solids,  www.barnesbullets.com/sunshop/index.php?action=category&id=7&subid=18

Should be able to get around 3500ish from a 223Rem safely with the 45s and maybe 3400 with the 50s...

All I know is that in some Army manual it says that the M855 round when fired through an M16 with a 20" barrel will penetrate more at 200 meters than a 20 because at the closer range the velocity is high enough that the bullet will fragment.  At the longer range it will have slowed enough that it will stay together and penetrate more deeply.

Quoted: Quoted: Is the PMC 5.56mm M193 Brown box?? or 223 55gr FMJ M193 5.56mm Has more FPS +  200FPS It was .223 commercial stuff. The 40GR VMAX has another 4-500fps on M193, velocity mattered less than bullet construction as you can see.

Actaully bullet construction mattered in this case.

When comparing 5.56 the 55 grain will go through more mild steel than 62 grain- even with the "penetrator"

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is the PMC 5.56mm M193 Brown box?? or 223 55gr FMJ M193 5.56mm Has more FPS +  200FPS It was .223 commercial stuff. The 40GR VMAX has another 4-500fps on M193, velocity mattered less than bullet construction as you can see. Actaully bullet construction mattered in this case. When comparing 5.56 the 55 grain will go through more mild steel than 62 grain- even with the "penetrator"

I do not have any XM193 to try, but I highly doubt the veracity of that. Another 1-200fps would not have pushed these rounds through.

At 25 yards (humming along close to 3,000fps) the 55gr PMC it failed to penetrate while at 140 yards (about 2650fps or so) the M855 zipped through the steel plate, through the 2x4, and into a railroad cross-tie never to be seen again. All this with almost a 400fps disadvantage. M193 would not penetrate at 100 yards if .223 won't come close at 25.

BTW, PMC is just as hot as 5.56 according to the Chrony.

PMC .223 Chronograph data
M193 Chrono data (LC)


I don't think it matters. M193 just doesnt do it like M855 when it comes to steel.

So the M855 is a better penatrator in steel?

Quoted: So the M855 is a better penatrator in steel?

Look at the pictures and decide for yourself.

At close range REAL M193 can do the same as M855

at a further distance M855 has better pentration 10,5 gr steel insert helps


55gr M193 will penetrate BETTER than 40gr/45gr VARMINT BULLETS
Check out Gel test etc!

Ive shot Cars with Q3131 back in the 80`s
Front to back

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is the PMC 5.56mm M193 Brown box?? or 223 55gr FMJ M193 5.56mm Has more FPS +  200FPS It was .223 commercial stuff. The 40GR VMAX has another 4-500fps on M193, velocity mattered less than bullet construction as you can see. Actaully bullet construction mattered in this case. When comparing 5.56 the 55 grain will go through more mild steel than 62 grain- even with the "penetrator"

True  if up close

Try useing M193 next Time

Quoted: Quoted: So the M855 is a better penatrator in steel? Look at the pictures and decide for yourself.

The M855 breaks a hole the others dont as i see it ..

looks like i have to run my own test

vs m193? errr...where

I ran a test a couple of years back with a 20" bushy a2 and I couldn't seem to find any piece of steel/metal/anything-to-shoot at that the m855 could penetrate that the m193 didn't...They either both did or they both didn't.  I'm not saying that definitively m193 penetrates as well as m855, but I am convinced any difference is negligible.  My test was inconclusive also, yet said a lot..

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is the PMC 5.56mm M193 Brown box?? or 223 55gr FMJ M193 5.56mm Has more FPS +  200FPS It was .223 commercial stuff. The 40GR VMAX has another 4-500fps on M193, velocity mattered less than bullet construction as you can see. Actaully bullet construction mattered in this case. When comparing 5.56 the 55 grain will go through more mild steel than 62 grain- even with the "penetrator" True  if up close Try useing M193 next Time

Forgot to add the range "disclaimer".

If I need to get through something, it will be with the 50 and AP

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Is the PMC 5.56mm M193 Brown box?? or 223 55gr FMJ M193 5.56mm Has more FPS +  200FPS It was .223 commercial stuff. The 40GR VMAX has another 4-500fps on M193, velocity mattered less than bullet construction as you can see. Actaully bullet construction mattered in this case. When comparing 5.56 the 55 grain will go through more mild steel than 62 grain- even with the "penetrator" True  if up close Try useing M193 next Time Forgot to add the range "disclaimer". If I need to get through something, it will be with the 50 and AP

Interesting comparison...

That 1 1/4 inch steel plate I have...

Has been hit by M2 AP 40 or so times at 150-200 yards, out of the 40 hits, only 4  have completely penetrated.

Compared to 300WinMag with M2 AP, 1 out of 15 so far has completely penetrated at 70ish-80 yards.

PMC=M193 in velocity. Whats the big deal?

Quoted: vs m193? errr...where I ran a test a couple of years back with a 20" bushy a2 and I couldn't seem to find any piece of steel/metal/anything-to-shoot at that the m855 could penetrate that the m193 didn't...They either both did or they both didn't.  I'm not saying that definitively m193 penetrates as well as m855, but I am convinced any difference is negligible.  My test was inconclusive also, yet said a lot..

My test showed an M193 equivalent round being a poor comparison to M855 for what I used them for. Maybe I can find some M193 laying around so all you brand whores will accept it, but PMC=M193 in bullet weight AND velocity to within a few dozen fps.

Quoted: PMC=M193 in velocity. Whats the big deal?

WRONG

5.56mm PMC BROWM BOX =M193 I still have some

223 55gr isnt M193 SPECS  thats YOUR main problem

Quoted: PMC=M193 in velocity. Whats the big deal?

Q3131 3270FPS out of a 20inch barrel

223 55gr FMJ 3240 FPS out of a 24inch if that

There has been alot of M193 test here

M855 is only Better at a longer range PERIOD



MODERATORS

ZHUKOV PLZ Reply

FOREST PLZ Reply

TROY PLZ Reply

Quoted: vs m193? errr...where I ran a test a couple of years back with a 20" bushy a2 and I couldn't seem to find any piece of steel/metal/anything-to-shoot at that the m855 could penetrate that the m193 didn't...They either both did or they both didn't.  I'm not saying that definitively m193 penetrates as well as m855, but I am convinced any difference is negligible.  My test was inconclusive also, yet said a lot..

TRUE

I bought my First AR15 in 1983

1ve shot alot of shit since

Quoted: Quoted: Is the PMC 5.56mm M193 Brown box?? or 223 55gr FMJ M193 5.56mm Has more FPS +  200FPS   ( Q3131 3270FPS out of a 20inch barrel) It was .223 commercial stuff. .

SEE above your statement!

223 stuff ISNT M193

Quoted: Quoted: vs m193? errr...where I ran a test a couple of years back with a 20" bushy a2 and I couldn't seem to find any piece of steel/metal/anything-to-shoot at that the m855 could penetrate that the m193 didn't...They either both did or they both didn't.  I'm not saying that definitively m193 penetrates as well as m855, but I am convinced any difference is negligible.  My test was inconclusive also, yet said a lot.. My test showed an M193 equivalent round being a poor comparison to M855 for what I used them for. Maybe I can find some M193 laying around so all you brand whores will accept it, but PMC=M193 in bullet weight AND velocity to within a few dozen fps.

Wrong

again 223 55gr FMJ isnt M193 PERIOD  (Win Q3131 3270FPS 20inch barrel)


Okay lets try this

whats the velocity of 223 PMC 55gr FMJ?  What SIZE barrel was used to test velocity?


Topic should say M855 vs 223 PMC 55gr FMJ

I still have that steel plate. SOMEWHERE I bet I have some M193. I will dig around. Would like to see/settle it.

Quoted: M855 is only Better at a longer range PERIOD

WRONG

that's a very subjective statement.....try placing GEL or water buckets behind your 3/8" steel plates @ 75yds and see which u think is "better"

Quoted: Interesting comparison... That 1 1/4 inch steel plate I have... Has been hit by M2 AP 40 or so times at 150-200 yards, out of the 40 hits, only 4  have completely penetrated. Compared to 300WinMag with M2 AP, 1 out of 15 so far has completely penetrated at 70ish-80 yards.

Which AP do you have. Some of the older stuff has a "softer" penetrator. I shoot through RR tracks at 300 yards and 1 1/2 at 200-300.  

Quoted: Quoted: M855 is only Better at a longer range PERIOD WRONG that's a very subjective statement.....try placing GEL or water buckets behind your 3/8" steel plates @ 75yds and see which u think is "better"

THIS IS OLD IFO
STEEL HELMET AT 500/600 yards M855 will do a better job than M193 PERIOD


LONG RANGE ISNT 75yards


THE BLACK BOOK shows GEL testing of M855 and M193

Looks the same in the book

Quoted: Quoted: M855 is only Better at a longer range PERIOD WRONG that's a very subjective statement.....try placing GEL or water buckets behind your 3/8" steel plates @ 75yds and see which u think is "better"

TRUE STATEMENT  M855/SS109 made for shooting STEEL Helmets at LONG RANGE !!!

M193 cant do this!!



According  to

FOREST
TROY
ETC!



LONGHUNTER LONG RANGE ISNT 75YARDS

Quoted: I still have that steel plate. SOMEWHERE I bet I have some M193. I will dig around. Would like to see/settle it.

When TROY or FOREST or ZHUKOV or MarkM
Tells me M193 cant go threw metal plates at close range

and that M855 is Better at close range than M193 then I will belive it!


Till then M193 can do the same as M855 at close range


M193= M193
223 55grFMJ doesnt = M193


CLOSE RANGE ONLY 50yards max

Quoted: 12_gauge: Your test is pretty tough to argue against. It would be interesting to see if higher velocity 55gr stuff (M193-spec) behaves any differently. All I know is that I have some steel plate that I've shot with a bunch of different stuff at 100 yards, including M80 ball in .308. Nothing made a dent in it until a buddy shot it with his .22-250 and some hyper-velocity stuff. Then again, steel penetration just isn't super-high on my list of criteria for ammo. If it does, great, but it's not a deal breaker if it doesn't.

You never seen M193 shot threw a steel plate at close range 50 yards



I thought a few months back Markm did a test with steel Plates and M193

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: M855 is only Better at a longer range PERIOD WRONG that's a very subjective statement.....try placing GEL or water buckets behind your 3/8" steel plates @ 75yds and see which u think is "better" THIS IS OLD IFO STEEL HELMET AT 500/600 yards M855 will do a better job than M193 PERIOD LONG RANGE ISNT 75yards THE BLACK BOOK shows GEL testing of M855 and M193 Looks the same in the book

FMJ  ...apparently you didn't interpert what I said.....I've shot M193 and M855 Thru 1/4" and 3/8" steel plates , up CLOSE 50-75yds M193 did penetrate mostof the time, M855 penetrated allof the time.....AND M855 penetrated water bucket and fragments after going thru steel plate, 4x I found at least 2 good size pcs of ss109 and  few tiny pcs.....the M193 did not penetrate water buckets after going thru steel.....now why don't YOU try experimenting rather than have someone else tell you what M193/M855 will or will not do...see for your own eyes

EDIT

Quoted: Quoted: PMC=M193 in velocity. Whats the big deal? No it's not, it's about 200fps slower.  So the M193 test would be the equivalent of 50 yards further out . As with any 'testing' the devil is in the details. Steel's thickness and composition/hardness makes a difference.  As does bullet construction and velocity. The varmint bullet I would not expect to go through (they are constructed to violently fragmetn on small critters after all) - unless you were handloading them to ungodly velocities. Unless a standard material is deignated then you can construct the 'test' to show either is better - just select the right material to show what you want.

well I got one right 223 55gr FMJ ISNT  M193

Back in the good ole days I had a buddy who had a JUNK YARD
Ive shot several trucks /cars with m193

A 55gr Ball  can go threw some metal

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: M855 is only Better at a longer range PERIOD WRONG that's a very subjective statement.....try placing GEL or water buckets behind your 3/8" steel plates @ 75yds and see which u think is "better" FMJ  ...apparently you didn't interpert what I said.....

WHAT YOU SAID HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MY STATEMENT !!


I STATED M855 penetrates better at LONG RANGE THAN M193

STEEL HELMET TEST  RING A BELL

Sorry, M193 wont cut steel like M855. AT ANY DISTANCE PERIOD!

FMJ, you have SOLIDLY stated that "PMC .223 is NOT M193 (and it's not) and WILL NOT perform like it (it wont MIRROR it) because it is "200fps slower".

Let's think about this. Can we agree that M193 and PMC have the same bullet? Would it MATTER? according to you we can skip this becuase M193 and M855 construction at close range are a moot point ACCORDING TO YOU because YOU say the M193 will out-penetrate it due to velocity. So...for you, FMJ, that 200fps is what you claim puts M193 ahead of M855 until "Long" range.

For me long range is beyond 400m. Medium range is 2-400m and "close" is under 100m. I assume you mean "close" is under 100m also when you refer to M193 vs. M855.

Now that I think I understand your position I am going to attempt to unravel it with cold hard logic.

The load was PMC’s 55-grain FMJ which bore the marking of “Target” on each 20-round carton. The load is rated at 3195 fps muzzle velocity and 1246 foot-pounds (ft-lbs) of muzzle energy. Actual muzzle velocity recorded during my test averaged 3144 fps.

-Test w/20" barrel (I used a 6601, 20" w/1/7 barrel

So. The PMC I was shooting since I did NOT chrony it, we will assume it was cutting 3150 fps on average. (I know, I am stealing 6fps). That info is stated as "muzzle velocity" so I assume either he calculated or adjusted for MUZZLE velocity as distance to chrony was not listed.

What will M193 do out of a 20" barrel?

Bushmaster 20" chrome lined barrel: 3224 3266 3244 3265 3263 AVG: 3252

-Test Link

So, we are working with a 100fps difference.

Well now, with a BC of .243 and starting at 3150fps my PMC was going 3049fps by 25 yards.

Starting at 3250, M193 breaks the 3050fps barrier at 50 yards.

My 25 yard shots with PMC .223 were = to 50 yard shots with M193. NO PENETRATION. Whereas the M855 penetrated the plate, a 2x4, and into a cross-tie at 140 yards.

Is 50 yards close-range? I think so. I can reliably land 8/10 shots on a piece of typing paper from my SIG226 from a seated position at that range. To me, that is close.

There you have it. M193 equivalency at 50 yards. Therefor, I can SAFELY state that at 75 yards (m193 that starts at 3252 is now going a hair under 3,000fps at 75 yards btw...) which is still close, M193 wouldn't have a prayer's chance on my steel plate, where as I did not have enough room at the house to get far enough away from the steel plate to NOT punch through it with the M855 and still have a safe backstop.


Is there anything more you would like to add to your argument with supporting facts? If not, or if you have nothing to back it up, I conclude that M855>M193 on steel at any distance you care for.

BTW, here is my ballistics calculator used to derive the extrapolated velocities.
Calculator

M193 =M193

the same bullet?   or CLOSE

Win makes a 55gr FMJ canaclure
Rem makes one also
Federal makes them
Speer

So if I said yes  some ass hole would TWIST IT AROUND TO SUIT HIMSELF

CANT ASSUME  ANYTHING

I will say at longer range M855 is Better than M193

like I said above

Quoted: M193 =M193 the same bullet?   or CLOSE Win makes a 55gr FMJ canaclure Rem makes one also Federal makes them Speer So if I said yes  some ass hole would TWIST IT AROUND TO SUIT HIMSELF CANT ASSUME  ANYTHING

So NOW you want to change camps and say that yes, at 50 yards, bullet construction is more important than velocity. I am glad we agree.

Quoted: Quoted: M193 =M193 the same bullet?   or CLOSE Win makes a 55gr FMJ canaclure Rem makes one also Federal makes them Speer So if I said yes  some ass hole would TWIST IT AROUND TO SUIT HIMSELF CANT ASSUME  ANYTHING So NOW you want to change camps and say that yes, at 50 yards, bullet construction is more important than velocity. I am glad we agree.

speed and bullet constuction  helps

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: M193 =M193 the same bullet?   or CLOSE Win makes a 55gr FMJ canaclure Rem makes one also Federal makes them Speer So if I said yes  some ass hole would TWIST IT AROUND TO SUIT HIMSELF CANT ASSUME  ANYTHING So NOW you want to change camps and say that yes, at 50 yards, bullet construction is more important than velocity. I am glad we agree. speed and bullet constuction  helps

Speed only does so much. The steel core was the deal-breaker.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: M193 =M193 the same bullet?   or CLOSE Win makes a 55gr FMJ canaclure Rem makes one also Federal makes them Speer So if I said yes  some ass hole would TWIST IT AROUND TO SUIT HIMSELF CANT ASSUME  ANYTHING So NOW you want to change camps and say that yes, at 50 yards, bullet construction is more important than velocity. I am glad we agree. speed and bullet constuction  helps Speed only does so much. The steel core was the deal-breaker.

TRUE the 10.5 gr steel penetrator Yes I take them apart. LOTS OF THEM

its not a WHOLE  Steel core so its kinda missleading


I do agree

M855 does WAY better than PMC 223 55gr FMJ!


S&B M193 (so called) has a steel jacket I wonder if that matters

never tried plates with that round


M193 doesnt call for copper only jacket

M193 Ball 26.5grs of WC844

M855 Ball 26.1 of WC844


I pulled a WIN M855 it had 27.1 gr on my Dillon scale
it came off links

Now that was hot stuff

<This is a technical forum - please keep your comments on-topic - Z>

<This is a technical forum - please keep your comments on-topic - Z>

<This is a technical forum - please keep your comments on-topic - Z>

<This is a technical forum - please keep your comments on-topic - Z>

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: M193 =M193 the same bullet?   or CLOSE Win makes a 55gr FMJ canaclure Rem makes one also Federal makes them Speer So if I said yes  some ass hole would TWIST IT AROUND TO SUIT HIMSELF CANT ASSUME  ANYTHING So NOW you want to change camps and say that yes, at 50 yards, bullet construction is more important than velocity. I am glad we agree. speed and bullet constuction  helps Speed only does so much. The steel core was the deal-breaker. TRUE the 10.5 gr steel penetrator Yes I take them apart. LOTS OF THEM its not a WHOLE  Steel core so its kinda missleading I do agree M855 does WAY better than PMC 223 55gr FMJ! S&B M193 (so called) has a steel jacket I wonder if that matters never tried plates with that round M193 doesnt call for copper only jacket M193 Ball 26.5grs of WC844 M855 Ball 26.1 of WC844 I pulled a WIN M855 it had 27.1 gr on my Dillon scale it came off links Now that was hot stuff

Me too.

Is a heavier bullet with a steel penetrator going to penetrate better? definitely..  I have no doubt that m855 will consistently penetrate better, I've seen enough threads like this one over the years to confirm that, but in my experience while not exactly SCIENTIFIC, I could NOT find any piece of junk to shoot that one could penetrate and the other not.. test was at 50yds.  

I just razzed the OP a little bit in my first post because the ammo used was definitely not m193.  One or two hundred + fps may seem infinitesimal but could easily make or break penetration on something like 3/8" thick steel, IMO.

I guess what I'm really trying to do here is rationalize my hoarding of m193 because it is cheaper..I don't want to believe I am not maximizing the potential of the AR...but all bullshit aside I really think the penetration difference is VERY SLIGHT.  If penetration is something you intend to depend on or is paramount to YOUR situation(s) then in all honesty 5.56/.223 is a pretty moot point.

I would like to see the steel insert at the bottom
instead at the top