Blackwind

I have spent the last day performing several hours of research and it truly seems L3 has screwed the pooch in several aspects beyond this event detailed.

and that really is the crux of it all. It's not that "EOSucks" as all the EO Fanboys like to defend against all the "Aimpoint Chearsquad"

It's that there are some bona-fide design issues that have been known for years and nothing has been done to correct them. And because of it, there are reliability issues that have to be considered when looking at a EO for serious use.

and there have been some HUGE clues that this is not just a few guys dreaming it up, but a fact.

Like the warning memo that SOCOM generated
and now the GAO ruling that squashed L3's protest for a bid on 1/2 a million red dot sights for the .Mil due to failures during testing.

It's not to say that there are not end users that have had good results running one, but there are issues and the reliability concerns on the percentage are higher.

Just cause a few weekend plinkers who shot 500 rds a year come on here and say "Mine works great, no problems" does not change that fact.

Quoted: Aimpont wins another big contract- 565,000 units.

so do you get a cut?

Brother Blackwind- thanks for the kind words- i truly appreciate it.

Contrary to what some may believe, i don't "hate" EO's. I am just not satisfied with their performance.

I don't discourage people from using them, and i give a 10 minute block of instruction at each class to stave off or rectify issues with them.

You are correct about screwing the pooch.

The protest and denial of the protest were made by, and responded to by lawyers, speaking in a unique language as dictated by profession, and making allegations and assertions according to the lawyer protocol.

And as you are probably aware, what actually happened and what was protested may/ may not be the same thing, or may have additions or deletions as they felt would help their particular cause.

Not likely that any of this will actually be made public.However, the endstate is that one company won and one lost.

Some companies/ndividuals may/ may not protest regardles of validity, in order to obfuscate or delay. Other companies may protest due to good faith considerations, concerning their product.

I have no inside track here- i saw the OP and read it (which maybe some didn't), and based on that an experience with other contracts and protests, came to the same conclusions you apparently did (though you may know more).

The bottom line is to get sights into the hands of the guys who are pressing the triggers.

And that has now been accomplished.

Quoted: Blackwind I have spent the last day performing several hours of research and it truly seems L3 has screwed the pooch in several aspects beyond this event detailed. and that really is the crux of it all. It's not that "EOSucks" as all the EO Fanboys like to defend against all the "Aimpoint Chearsquad" It's that there are some bona-fide design issues that have been known for years and nothing has been done to correct them. And because of it, there are reliability issues that have to be considered when looking at a EO for serious use. and there have been some HUGE clues that this is not just a few guys dreaming it up, but a fact. Like the warning memo that SOCOM generated and now the GAO ruling that squashed L3's protest for a bid on 1/2 a million red dot sights for the .Mil due to failures during testing. It's not to say that there are not end users that have had good results running one, but there are issues and the reliability concerns on the percentage are higher. Just cause a few weekend plinkers who shot 500 rds a year come on here and say "Mine works great, no problems" does not change that fact.

I think there have been more issues in current/immediate past L-3 production runs than in the past.

Many EOTechs have seen lots more than weekend plinker use and still work.

I've gotten lucky - 3 EOTechs, 3 Aimpoints, 2 Leupolds, 2 ACOGs and nary an issue with any of them...

Quoted: Quoted: Aimpont wins another big contract- 565,000 units. so do you get a cut?

Nope, just more "T&E" samples for his range guns.

Quoted: Blackwind I have spent the last day performing several hours of research and it truly seems L3 has screwed the pooch in several aspects beyond this event detailed. and that really is the crux of it all. It's not that "EOSucks" as all the EO Fanboys like to defend against all the "Aimpoint Chearsquad"

I actually agree with the quoted statement and I've said so in the other threads on this subject.

I have also never raised the Eotech to the level of worship I see from the Aipoint Cheersquad. In fact I would challenge you to find one single post were I either bagged on Aipoints, or told anyone that the Eotech is the best and what they should buy. If you find anything at all it will be back in the archives, but I don't remember being adamant about it either way since I think it's a personal choice and you need to try them out to see which works for you.

My only problem in this whole thing, and my only claim is that there are a group of oldschool Aimpoint fanboys that saw the Eotech make some moves into the LE/MIL market which took away their thunder for awhile, but these new problems have brought them out like rabid rats slobbering at the thought of their old nemesis dying.

That is all I have ever said on this subject and I own several samples of each optic, having swapped out the eotech on my bedside 9mm SBR several months ago for an aimpoint cuz I like the always on battery life for that role.

Actually i have received exactly one T1 and one M4 as T&E, and at the end of the eval period i could return it, or purchase it.
I bought both.

I have 4 M4, 2 M4s, and 10 T1's. They are all purchased.

Do the math. Sorta' like saying that i vote with my credit card.

Re EO making inroads etc.
Look at the number of Aimpoints  bought on contract and look at the # of EO's bought on contract.

Prior to this contract, there was appx 3/4 million Aimpoints in the syetem, not counting unit purchases. Now with over a 1/2 million more...

Quoted: Blackwind I have spent the last day performing several hours of research and it truly seems L3 has screwed the pooch in several aspects beyond this event detailed. and that really is the crux of it all. It's not that "EOSucks" as all the EO Fanboys like to defend against all the "Aimpoint Chearsquad" It's that there are some bona-fide design issues that have been known for years and nothing has been done to correct them. And because of it, there are reliability issues that have to be considered when looking at a EO for serious use. and there have been some HUGE clues that this is not just a few guys dreaming it up, but a fact. Like the warning memo that SOCOM generated and now the GAO ruling that squashed L3's protest for a bid on 1/2 a million red dot sights for the .Mil due to failures during testing. It's not to say that there are not end users that have had good results running one, but there are issues and the reliability concerns on the percentage are higher. Just cause a few weekend plinkers who shot 500 rds a year come on here and say "Mine works great, no problems" does not change that fact.

Harv...great post.  This thread has really turned into some good reading.  Usually the Eotech vs. Aimpoint isn't worth reading.  I think you hit the nail on the head and so did Pat in one of his earlier posts on this page.  Whether you like Eo or Aimpoint, Eo has issues and doesn't seem to take the time to get those issues behind them.  Like others, I've run Eotechs with not problems at all and many guys I work with use them on duty guns (many use aimpoint as well).

The biggest problem is having some guys with no problems and some guys with problems.  Eo has great customer service and they will take care of problems, but if they could be avoided, we wouldn't be seeing these threads get so intense.

Anyway, I for one do appreciate the objective analysis that everyone seems to have offered in the most recent threads.  This may actually help those trying to decide on an optic to make an informed decision.

My 2 cents

Quoted: Let me see here... When you're stuck with an A2, you're stuck with a substandard solution. That's a bit harsh. I prefer longer barrels, not because I'm a size queen, but because of higher velocities.

That's not harsh, if you put it in context. Mounting optics to an A2 carry handle is substandard. The standard now is the flattop as found on the M4 and M16A4. Mounting optics to a fixed carry handle has always been messy.

MudBug

I actually agree with the quoted statement and I've said so in the other threads on this subject. I have also never raised the Eotech to the level of worship I see from the Aipoint Cheersquad. In fact I would challenge you to find one single post were I either bagged on Aipoints, or told anyone that the Eotech is the best and what they should buy. If you find anything at all it will be back in the archives, but I don't remember being adamant about it either way since I think it's a personal choice and you need to try them out to see which works for you. My only problem in this whole thing, and my only claim is that there are a group of oldschool Aimpoint fanboys that saw the Eotech make some moves into the LE/MIL market which took away their thunder for awhile, but these new problems have brought them out like rabid rats slobbering at the thought of their old nemesis dying. That is all I have ever said on this subject and I own several samples of each optic, having swapped out the eotech on my bedside 9mm SBR several months ago for an aimpoint cuz I like the always on battery life for that role.

As much as you may not believe this.. you and I are not that far apart on this issue.

I wll be the first to admit that I am on the Aimpoint Cheer squad (Which was funny..)

I like to think I'm realistic enough in my experiences to know that competition is good for everyone and the world would  be pretty lame if all there were were Aimpoints... But when I see L3 deal with the issues they way they have, it's time to bring the issues to light (Like others with WAY more experience then me have been trying to do for years)

Can they make a reliable EOTech??? I like to think so.... but they have to want to and that may cost money... and good enough should never be good enough...

Hell... even SMG Lee stopped defending them after the latest GAO announcement...[;) ]That should be a clue to L3 right there...

Eotechs are not as durable as the Aimpoint.  I really like the Eotech reticle and price, so I'm torn on my next optic.

Actually, this whole thing sounds pretty typical in the arena of government procurement, where I have had a passing involvement for about 12 years.

Responding to a Federal RFP (request for proposal) is not an activity for amateurs. You have to be 100% compliant with the proposal and your submission has to be 100% bulletproof (so to speak). It doesn't surprise me that a first-timer got spanked and send home because their proposal was inadequate. That's how you learn the dance steps. They'll be sharper next time.

Where they screwed up is in protesting the contract award. That doesn't win you any friends or favors in the long run. There is alot of that in the media right now (Boeing, for example) but protesting an award is never a high-percentage strategy. They should have taken the lesson to heart and tried better next time.

Is it fair that EOTech was excluded on a technicality and that left Aimpoint as the sole survivor? Absolutely. In order to win a government contract, you have to produce a qualifying product and you have to present a qualifying proposal. Drop the ball on one and you're outa there.

OK, for the guys like Pat_Rogers and some of the others here that have seen these optics really put through the ringer, I have a real-world, personal scenario:

Great shooter with decent, if somewhat dated .mil training, chose EOTech over Aimpoint on recent builds due to an astigmatism (look, we all don't remain young and bullet-proof for long)... Simply put, he just can't see the Aimpoint dot correctly and the EOTech works fine for him.  

Honestly, I'm just relaying a "consideration" I'd never thought about and wondered what work-arounds there are?

B2


I have both and personally prefer the Aimpoint... Of course that's just MY opinion, and it ain't worth much!  

Quoted: Great shooter with decent, if somewhat dated .mil training, chose EOTech over Aimpoint on recent builds due to an astigmatism (look, we all don't remain young and bullet-proof for long)... Simply put, he just can't see the Aimpoint dot correctly and the EOTech works fine for him.

Acording to L-3 it's the EOTech has the astigmatism problem.

Also, if you have astigmatism or use bifocals, you may see the image less distinctly.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Aimpont wins another big contract- 565,000 units. so do you get a cut? Nope, just more "T&E" samples for his range guns.

I'm amazed at the lack of respect on this site....

Quoted: Just cause a few weekend plinkers who shot 500 rds a year come on here and say "Mine works great, no problems" does not change that fact.

I missed this part.

The 512 on this rifle is now on the second upper that I've had on this (My main) rifle. The reason is that it's the second upper is that after about 15,000 rounds in about 18 months, including the last 4k at a 5 day TR HRCC class in AZ in 115* weather I decided it was time for a new one. I'm not sure how many rounds have been through it since then, but it hasn't seen the beating it once got since I've spent more time on precision stuff, hunting, and other shooting lately. Not a single problem.



Now I know that probably isn't a marine style beating, but it's a far cry from plinker tales.

I do however have a 511 that has had the well known battery box issues the N-Type versions are known for. The other 511 I have has had not trouble, but it's just on a back-up carbine for matches and classes which doesn't see tons of use.

Quoted: Quoted: Great shooter with decent, if somewhat dated .mil training, chose EOTech over Aimpoint on recent builds due to an astigmatism (look, we all don't remain young and bullet-proof for long)... Simply put, he just can't see the Aimpoint dot correctly and the EOTech works fine for him.   Acording to L-3 it's the EOTech has the astigmatism problem. Also, if you have astigmatism or use bifocals, you may see the image less distinctly.

Maybe this is a "one-off" situation, but I think I'm also throwing open a general question...  Just wondering?

Naturally, there are BUIS involved with "adjusted" vision and that's not a problem... "old guy" checking out.

B2

ETA:  I love both optics and shoot both poorly compared to most!    Once again, as a "SSS" (Slow, Simple, Stupid) guy,  I just find the Aimpoint much more intuitive for the intended use.  My hunting and varmint rifles carry far different optics...

Quoted: Hell... even SMG Lee stopped defending them after the latest GAO announcement...[;) ]That should be a clue to L3 right there...

I just have a job that travels, and I don't have much time to get on line....:), notice how active i was in the past and how little i post recently?

I jump in when ever EOTech bashing get out of control, I like both sights, bothhas merits, but some of the trashing just sem unfair and out of control.....

I own actually more Aimpoints than EOTechs, but i ran a 553 on my primary carbine, it is the optic I am used to, it is optic I shoot well with and it has been reliable for me since 2001 in various forms.

Quoted: Quoted: <SNIP>. Sorry, I'm not playing in this one with the roving Aimpoint cheersquad. You, FMJ, and Mr. Rogers will have to find somebody else to set up your talking points for you.

Hey, you left me out dammit

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: <SNIP>. Sorry, I'm not playing in this one with the roving Aimpoint cheersquad. You, FMJ, and Mr. Rogers will have to find somebody else to set up your talking points for you. Hey, you left me out dammit

I missed your posts in any of the recent Eobash threads, so your bashing credentials have lapsed a bit.

Get to work.

Quoted: ...I only shoot EoTechs..for now (that is all that I have)...I have a pre and post swoosh 557.  No issues with the battery life...I only use the Li batteries...over 6 months on one set of batteries...

What do those have, an 8-hr auto shutoff? While it is nice that you left a set of batteries in there for 6 months, I'll be more impressed when you can just leave it on, like I do with my M3s, all year long.

I have shot (chevron) aimpoints...for me..too large of a reticule...

I've never heard of an Aimpoint product with a chevron reticle...

Quoted: I missed your posts in any of the recent Eobash threads, so your bashing credentials have lapsed a bit. Get to work.

Bah, I'm too old for that shit anymore.

Anyone with a brain knows Aimpoint stomps Eotech in every way.

Quoted: Actually, this whole thing sounds pretty typical in the arena of government procurement, where I have had a passing involvement for about 12 years. Responding to a Federal RFP (request for proposal) is not an activity for amateurs. You have to be 100% compliant with the proposal and your submission has to be 100% bulletproof (so to speak). It doesn't surprise me that a first-timer got spanked and send home because their proposal was inadequate. That's how you learn the dance steps. They'll be sharper next time. Where they screwed up is in protesting the contract award. That doesn't win you any friends or favors in the long run. There is alot of that in the media right now (Boeing, for example) but protesting an award is never a high-percentage strategy. They should have taken the lesson to heart and tried better next time. Is it fair that EOTech was excluded on a technicality and that left Aimpoint as the sole survivor? Absolutely. In order to win a government contract, you have to produce a qualifying product and you have to present a qualifying proposal. Drop the ball on one and you're outa there.

Listen to what this man is saying. Every other post in this thread after the OP could be deleted.

There are rules. Fail to follow the rules. you are gone.
There are requirements. Your product is not sufficient for the task, you are gone.
Make frivilous protests, you will garner no friends.

Quoted: Quoted: Just cause a few weekend plinkers who shot 500 rds a year come on here and say "Mine works great, no problems" does not change that fact. I missed this part. The 512 on this rifle is now on the second upper that I've had on this (My main) rifle. The reason is that it's the second upper is that after about 15,000 rounds in about 18 months, including the last 4k at a 5 day TR HRCC class in AZ in 115* weather I decided it was time for a new one. I'm not sure how many rounds have been through it since then, but it hasn't seen the beating it once got since I've spent more time on precision stuff, hunting, and other shooting lately. Not a single problem. www.goobage.com/pics/arms/main_yhm0.jpg Now I know that probably isn't a marine style beating, but it's a far cry from plinker tales. I do however have a 511 that has had the well known battery box issues the N-Type versions are known for. The other 511 I have has had not trouble, but it's just on a back-up carbine for matches and classes which doesn't see tons of use.

Here's my 552. It took a "Marine style beating" for quite a while. It still works. I still use it on my ARs.

This is the reason why I like EOTech and this is the reason why I hope L-3 solves their cranial-rectal inversion issue. I know that there are good EOTechs out there.

I think there are a lot of good eo's out there.


But more germane to this post, thay failed to meet the criteria in direct competition, and failed as a submission, as a result.

No matter what anyone believes about the one optic they have, what they believe more, or the fact that they believe "it ain't fair", they lost because their prduct didn't meet stated criteria, and they lost the protest because that had no merit.

They will either get better, or they won't.
That is business.

Quoted: I think there are a lot of good eo's out there. But more germane to this post, thay failed to meet the criteria in direct competition, and failed as a submission, as a result. No matter what anyone believes about the one optic they have, what they believe more, or the fact that they believe "it ain't fair", they lost because their prduct didn't meet stated criteria, and they lost the protest because that had no merit. They will either get better, or they won't. That is business.

Don't get me wrong... I really hope L3 sees this GAO decision for what it is: a big flashing neon sign that says "Fix Your Problems".

87GN,

They are working very hard at trying to resolve the problems, there are a lot of factors in play and getting everything right at the first shot is not easy.

If you look at company's history, EOTech is right about the same place in time as Aimpojnt was with the M-XD, and you know how much problem they had with the M-XD.

Thing will improve, it will take cycles and evolutions and R&D as they encounter problem and work on resolving and improving.

As far as the SOCOM letter, most likely a new letter will be forth coming to state the satisfaction of the product recall fix provided by EOTech.

Quoted: 87GN, They are working very hard at trying to resolve the problems, there are a lot of factors in play and getting everything right at the first shot is not easy. If you look at company's history, EOTech is right about the same place in time as Aimpojnt was with the M-XD, and you know how much problem they had with the M-XD. Thing will improve, it will take cycles and evolutions and R&D as they encounter problem and work on resolving and improving. As far as the SOCOM letter, most likely a new letter will be forth coming to state the satisfaction of the product recall fix provided by EOTech.

So until if and when  they get the bugs worked out, we should stick with Aimpoints....

Quoted: Quoted: 87GN, They are working very hard at trying to resolve the problems, there are a lot of factors in play and getting everything right at the first shot is not easy. If you look at company's history, EOTech is right about the same place in time as Aimpojnt was with the M-XD, and you know how much problem they had with the M-XD. Thing will improve, it will take cycles and evolutions and R&D as they encounter problem and work on resolving and improving. As far as the SOCOM letter, most likely a new letter will be forth coming to state the satisfaction of the product recall fix provided by EOTech. So until if and when  they get the bugs worked out, we should stick with Aimpoints....

Not to drink the EoTech koolaid...but I have two 557s that have worked flawlessly...I still have a pair of the Li batteries in them for over 4 months...every time I read this tread, I open up the gun safe and turn the sights on...never an issue...both sights have over 5K + on them...tomorrow morn they will have over 6K on BOTH of them...