First off, I'm in no way, shape or form any kind of authority on optics. That'll probably be clear enough after a few paragraphs, but thought I'd let you know I'm not trying to fool anyone....
Second, I just can't afford a Short Dot, Nightforce, Meopta or even a CQ/t (although I have looked through one at a gunshow...). $250 all in is about all I can afford to put into scopes and mounts per rifle. My red dot is a knock off Aimpoint off of fleabay ...my worst civilian SHTF situation was Starbucks putting non f@#$ing fat milk in my latte and, realistically, it probably won't get any worse for me than that...I have nothing to do with either company and nothing to sell here, but as always, YMMV
I did want a low power zoom so I could compete in some 3 gun and practical rifle and after reading this forum the DMS 1 seemed a good choice...while i was waiting for one of those to be in stock somewhere, I came across vector optic's 1X4 on ebay. What piqued my interest was that it was a first focal plane zoom, so as you zoom, the reticle zooms with you, getting proportionally bigger or smaller. I'd been following the GRSC thread on Ed's attempt to make a version of the DMS1 using his own reticle design and the whole FFP idea seemed to make some sense, so for $180 I ordered one. And as Ed at GRSC seemed to be the only person with some DMS 1's on hand I ordered one of those from him. They both arrived within 2 days. And Ed was a very cool guy to talk to...


DMS in front, then Vector, then Fakepoint for scale..

both scopes use 1 piece 30mm tubes ending in a 24 mm objective lens. both seem extremely well made and finished with O ring sealed battery compartments and turrets
DMS battery compartment:

Vector battery compartment:

The DMS came with a spare battery inside one of the screw down turret covers, which was a good thing as the one in the scope was DOA.

Turrets on the DMS click clearly and, once set, are protected by the screw down covers which seal against flat rubber gaskets on the tube.


The turrets on the Vector are target style. They click very smoothly and precisely in 1/4 increments, but they're not lockable which doesn't seem to smart on a scope like this. On the plus side, the turrets are made from solid 1 piece castings that are secured to the towers underneath by way of 3 screws: Here's one after I unscrewed it, with 1 of the holding screws screwed back in.... the tower has 2 large O rings between the moving parts...


THE VIEW

DMS at 1X set on brightness 4


Vector at 1X on 3


the vector has a choice of red or green illumination. The green blooms less at full power than the red.
After adjusting the ocular diopter a couple of turns both scopes give a pretty good 1X view over about 90+ % of the view. Unlike Aimpoints or Eotechs because of the lenses involved, you get some slight distortion around the edge of the lens and if you look at something less than, say, 10 feet away, you don't get a true 1x image. Oh, and bonus points to Vector for including see through glass flip up covers. It means I can keep th eocular one closed, and still adjust the diopter ring to fine tune the focus after zooming. With the plain rubber ones supplied with the DMS you either have to remove it or have it sticking out in an odd direction possibly obscuring your other eye....the Vector also came with mounts, but they were too low to be of any use..
That said I was impressed with the brightness and clarity of both optics, I couldn't fault the glass in either. However, the Vector had the greater eyebox, or range of eye relief. It was quite a big difference and made it easier to get comfortable looking through the Vector....but I much prefer the reticle on the DMS and the relative ease of estimating holdover, over the duplex reticle on the Vector....but I really really like the FFP zooming design of the Vector.

If the Vector had either lockable turrets or screw down covers and the DMS's (or better ) reticle, it would be an absolute winner. If the DMS had more flexible eye relief and an FFP zoom as per GRSCs design it would be a clear winner. As it is I'm torn between the 2. I also have to fess up that I've yet to take them to the range, so that will be part 2....

Now if Ed were to put his reticle in the Vector and they sorted themselves out with some locking turrets...
DMS1 mounted...



Vector mounted...



the sharper amongst you will notice there's only 1 ring, i was just setting them up to test eye relief. That said I think i do need some 1 piece mounts as both scopes put the second ring on the fore rail. I also had to remove my rear sight, so something needs to be done heightwise....

As long as its a comparison, where is the Vector made and what is the MSRP on it?

nice information and good post.  I like seeing this kind of thing for us lower budget non life dependent shooters.

Quoted: I read through it a little quick, so Im sorry if I missed something. But are those optics set up with propper eye relief even with that longer stock? Do you shoot nose to charging handle?

+1

i shoot with what I guess I'd call a cheek weld, nose about 2" away from the charging handle. Where you see the optics mounted in the last couple of pictures is where I found they worked best for me....
On price, I bought my Vector brand new from a guy on ebay who sells scopes, mounts etc  for $180 including shipping.Vector themselves have an eBay store where, until about 2 weeks ago, they sold it themselves for $162. (if you go back through their feedback, you can see the scopes being sold for that) For some reason they've basically doubled the price to $348 which now makes a bit of a mockery of my comparison (which I started writing about 2 weeks ago )
the guy in charge of Vector ha shis email on the ebay store so I've sent an email asking about the increase...I'll let you know what he says. I don't have anything in the $364 price range to compare it to, and at that premium over a DMS I would say "stuff it" quite frankly.
I also got an email asking if it was the same scope as that sold under the "counter sniper" brand at Midway for $399. I have to say that I think it is,  but with a different style of turret and a little less bollocks about "proprietary -230 to +485 degree stable bertrillium zantitium multicoated optics on both primary and secondary and all interior lens groups, proprietary rare earth/nitrogen gas purged, hard earth sealed" At $399 i would say "stuff it hard"

I looked around in their EBay store and found this one



While not 1-4, but 1.25-4.5, this suits me perfectly as does the price!  Thanks for pointing this one out, if it works, splendid!

here's the reply I got from the Sunclear guy re the price rise:
Dear asiparks,

Hi,

The reason forthe price increase is very complex. The main force is from one big customer. anyway you can apply 'best offer' we can check the price. If it is Ok I can sell it to you. Thanks a lot.

- ????
Did this answer your question? If not, let the seller know.


Item and user details
Item Title: Vector Optics 1-4x24 First Focal Plane Military Scope
Item Number: 130169812607
Item URL: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130169812607
End Date: Jan-01-08 03:57:24 PST
From User:
???? (1188)
99.9% Positive Feedback


I'm curious to know who the big customer is that's arsing it up for the rest of us is..

Martytw- that looks interesting and for $80 I might give it a try too...If the 1X4 had that screw down turret design and the mil dot reticle, (if it is true mil dot ), it would be a winner

Newarguy...hmmm not sure I follow...most people seem have found the Millet very useable, as I said, where it sits in that photo works perfectly for me when I shoulder the weapon and looking at myself in the mirror i would estimate that my nose is 2" from the CH. The same with the Vector which has  eye relief from 3.5" to 4.9". If I move my nose to the CH i get a sort of eclipse effect where either the left or right side of the image will shadow out unless I keep my eye very, very still.
This was not a review recommending a shooting stance or style, I'm just comparing two optics and how they work for me.
Right now I have the Vector mounted because of the extended eye relief, and it does, under dimmer light, appear marginally brighter than the DMS 1. I've just ordered a Model 1 sales mount for it as I'm not liking the 2 ring solution. When I take it out, I'll take both scopes as i'm still not trusting the Vector adjustments not to get knocked off zero

Quoted: I looked around in their EBay store and found this one www.sunclear.biz/en_description/Vector%201.25-4.5x26E.jpg While not 1-4, but 1.25-4.5, this suits me perfectly as does the price!  Thanks for pointing this one out, if it works, splendid!

Interesting!
Your photo details of the windage and elevation caps and the finger adjustments are identical to those on my Mueller 4.5-14 APV.

tag

Quoted: i shoot with what I guess I'd call a cheek weld, nose about 2" away from the charging handle. Where you see the optics mounted in the last couple of pictures is where I found they worked best for me.... On price, I bought my Vector brand new from a guy on ebay who sells scopes, mounts etc  for $180 including shipping.Vector themselves have an eBay store where, until about 2 weeks ago, they sold it themselves for $162. (if you go back through their feedback, you can see the scopes being sold for that) For some reason they've basically doubled the price to $348 which now makes a bit of a mockery of my comparison (which I started writing about 2 weeks ago ) the guy in charge of Vector ha shis email on the ebay store so I've sent an email asking about the increase...I'll let you know what he says. I don't have anything in the $364 price range to compare it to, and at that premium over a DMS I would say "stuff it" quite frankly. I also got an email asking if it was the same scope as that sold under the "counter sniper" brand at Midway for $399. I have to say that I think it is,  but with a different style of turret and a little less bollocks about "proprietary -230 to +485 degree stable bertrillium zantitium multicoated optics on both primary and secondary and all interior lens groups, proprietary rare earth/nitrogen gas purged, hard earth sealed" At $399 i would say "stuff it hard"

After seeing the pics of the reticle and scope tube I believe the Vector scope is the same as the Counter Sniper scope.

The CS scope does have locking turrets, but I'm hard-pressed to find any other differences.

I picked my CS 1x4 up used on the EE.  So far it's held up and I think with a better reticle design (the GRSC reticle would be OUTSTANDING) it would be much more usable.

IMHO, the Vector seller upped the price on his scopes when he saw what the CS scopes were going for on Midway.  Obviously people are paying the $399 asking price since the one I purchased originally came from Midway.

I emailed the CS people about the strong resemblance between their scope and the Vector scope and was told they were different due to several reasons.  To be honest, I think they're lying...  The scope body, magnification ring, and your optics pictures are way too damn similar for coincidence.

I've said it in other threads.  The CS scope is a good value for $200-$300.  I would not pay the $399 Midway is asking.

My email exchange with the CS folks as follows:<note: start at bottom to read my original email.  My emails in blue, their replies in red>

Hi Rob, If you got it from Midway you have the real thing. You also got a deal. If it is unmarked it is designated Military-Sterile per MIL STD 130. It was originally allocated for a black project and would have been sold at civilian retail of $1099.00. Midway was given those at the overun price, and passed the savings on to you. If it has locking turrets, its one of ours, to date no one has knocked that off yet, the fakes have cheesy short turrets. The unit that you have has a double power reostat, ideal for daylight use. FYI, that power level will dazzle at night so make sure to use the level one illumination power setting if you use it in darkness. If the unit performs like it has in some theaters of war for the past few years, I think you will do well. The cross hair that you have makes the 100 yard section a snap. Keep an extra battery on hand in case the light gets left on for a few days. If the unit did for any reason go tits up, we will fix it or give you a new one.


I appreciate your quick response.  After reading your reply I had one other question...

My 1x4 Crusader did not have any US government markings, nor was it marked Counter Sniper.  I purchased this from MidwayUSA.  Did I receive a genuine Counter Sniper Optic?

If I've recieved a "fake" do I have any recourse?  

The scope has performed well at the range, but a match tends to be the place where issues rear their ugly head.  In 3-gun and IPSC I've found a low-power fixed (ACOG) or variable scope is certainly the way to go.  The illuminated reticle will make it easier to pick out our steel poppers against the treeline.  

Your scopes are relatively new to the shooting scene and I want to be sure what I have is, in fact, a Counter Sniper optic when asked at the range/match (which by the way has occurred at the shop and range...everyone's looking for a rugged, 1x4 with clear glass).  By that same token, if it goes tits up, I'd like to be able to say "nope, it's not a real CS optic".

Thanks again for your time.

Sincerely,
Rob  

PS:  Don't know if it helps, but my scope is red/green illuminated, a "+" reticle (semi-duplex?), ocular focus, 1/4 moa adjustments, lockable turrets, no trademark or manufacturer markings.
Thanks.


[email protected] wrote:
Thanks for your purchase, I think you will be very happy with your scope for years to come! We have seen a couple counterfeit models coming out of Asia, and while cosmetically similar they are fewer in lens elements, have turrets that are of a different design and optically are a fraction of the ones coming from Rochester NY, the headquarters of CounterSniper USA. We use lenses of pure optical glass, not cheap "window glass" from the pacific rim. The Asian ones we have seen are not coated, not gas purged and won't focus close up or beyond 200 yards. We believe our basic front plane design was copied by Norinco, the chinese arms manufacturer in the mid nineties, and aren't worried about cheap knock offs, but we are concerned about any that are engraved with our trademarks and passed off as stuff from Rochester. If you bought from Midway no need to worry. The normal retail for your 1-4 is appx 1100.00 dollars, if you paid less than that from Midway, you may have a contract designate or overun sold for less, but still brand new and one heck of a value. The mushy spots in the clicks are from mil spec mandated saltwater proof grease in the indexing pin path-this will sweep from the groove in time and doesn't affect accuracy. To replace the battery (cr2032 lithium button cell- any camera shop) unscrew the top of the reostat cover(the knob that turns the Illuminated reticle on) and replace the battery. The scope is a true one power, the peripheral distortion is normal keystoning, as with your eyes-(if you look at a tall building and it appears to get smaller at the top-off axis with any one power you will get this effect)-With optics at 1 power, we actually re-enlarge the image to preserve the normal 50mm field of view that your eyes have, and then zoom magnify for the stated distance. We would love to know how your match goes, make sure with your riflestock you can maintain a good cheek weld close up, as these optical designs require you maintain proper eye-relief unlike our reflex sights. You will smoke the red-dot guys on the hundred yard section! Thanks for buying from us, we so appreciate you business, if you have thoughts on things we can do better, please let us know-should need repair, send it to us at Dark Ops Holdings www.darkopsholdings.com

-----Original Message-----
From: rob78
To: [email protected]
Sent: Mon, 3 Dec 2007 4:01 pm
Subject: 1x4 crusader


Dear Sirs,
I recently purchased your 1x4x24 model from Midway USA and was wondering if you could provide some background information on this particular model.  
Where is the scope manufactured?  There are similar scopes made by "Sun-Vector"...
Who do I contact for repair work?
How do I replace the battery for the illuminated reticle?
Who manufactures the lenses?

So far the scope has worked well.  I did notice the scope isn't a true 1x as I noted some peripheral distortion.  I had no problems getting the scope zeroed at 100 yards, but did notice that the adjustments got "mushy" on occasion .  I intend to use the scope at an upcoming IPSC/3-Gun event where it'll actually get used (as opposed to shooting it off the bench).  

Thank you for your time and effort with the above requests.
a satisfied customer,
Rob

Quoted: If you shoot with your nose about 2" away from the charging handle, and the above pictures is where the eye relief is set for your, those scopes are almost unusable for anyone who does shoot nose to charging handle. I suppose those of us who do shoot like that could use a LaRue SPR-E mount.

He DID say he's not an optics expert

Quoted: Quoted: If you shoot with your nose about 2" away from the charging handle, and the above pictures is where the eye relief is set for your, those scopes are almost unusable for anyone who does shoot nose to charging handle. I suppose those of us who do shoot like that could use a LaRue SPR-E mount. He DID say he's not an optics expert

and my nose is one of a "distinctively handsome" type, yours may be accordingly pointier...

I'd read your other thread Rob, about the CS scope and the marketing agency that insists on all the ninja-black-ops, a value of $999999, yours for $399 etc -bollocks...They manage to make Otis cleaning kits look like deadly death dealing bastards of deadliness.....
It's a shame really, if they cut out the shit and sold it as a good honest scope for under $250, they'd probably do rather well with them....
Haven't been to the range with either yet as it's pissy weather up here in the northwest, but the neighbours are getting used to me walking up and down the street looking at their christmas lights through a scope.... In poor light, I'm still giving the edge to the Vector for brightness and clarity, but still liking the DMS 1 reticle far more...

This scope is looking like an interesting option if they can drop the price back. Goes to show never tell anybody they could charge more for something.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you shoot with your nose about 2" away from the charging handle, and the above pictures is where the eye relief is set for your, those scopes are almost unusable for anyone who does shoot nose to charging handle. I suppose those of us who do shoot like that could use a LaRue SPR-E mount. He DID say he's not an optics expert and my nose is one of a "distinctively handsome" type, yours may be accordingly pointier... I'd read your other thread Rob, about the CS scope and the marketing agency that insists on all the ninja-black-ops, a value of $999999, yours for $399 etc -bollocks...They manage to make Otis cleaning kits look like deadly death dealing bastards of deadliness..... It's a shame really, if they cut out the shit and sold it as a good honest scope for under $250, they'd probably do rather well with them.... Haven't been to the range with either yet as it's pissy weather up here in the northwest, but the neighbours are getting used to me walking up and down the street looking at their christmas lights through a scope.... In poor light, I'm still giving the edge to the Vector for brightness and clarity, but still liking the DMS 1 reticle far more...

agreed on all points.  I prefer the DMS-1 reticle, but like the CS/Vector optics.

After quite a few range trips the CS scope has held zero without issue.  The reticle tracked well (no playing "catch up").  I shot a brief IPSC type course with it and didn't have problems with the target turrets being moved.  That being said, my preference on such a scope is without target turrets (ridiculous on a scope of this nature IMO).

The CS scope was purchased for IPSC-type shooting.  I have a non-illuminated MR/T and was losing the reticle in the treeline.  Leupold's optics are absolutely superb, but the reticle is too thin IMO.  

If GRSC can get their reticle in a $400 FFP scope with decent optics and good durability, they'll sell an absolute shit-ton.  Heavy reticle won't get "lost" against a shadowy/dark background, a reticle that can be used for CQB and for ranging out to 500yds. or so.    

I am waiting on the 1.25-4.5 to arrive, ordered it a few days ago.  With rings and shipping $107 total ... if she holds up, I'll be tickled pink.  I agree, I would LOVE to have Ed's reticle in the 1-4 version, but as many have stated, the price hike is a bit bothersome (and the whole BS about mil spec sterile ...)  

Note to Ed, Email with contact info to follow shortly.

Does the Vector Optics mount interfere with your BUIS?  I want to get one to put in my 30mm QD Larue mount (LT-104) but I'm afraid it won't fit over my GG&G BUIS.

For the mount questions, note that both scopes are mounted in a single ring, and wouldn't be able to have a second ring mounted above the flat top.

Pretty much all of these illuminated Chinese scopes have very long eyepieces, and you can't shoot them NTCH without an extended mount like the LaRue SPR-E or ADM Recon X.  Standard mounts like the Armalite or the CAA DVSR just don't provide enough forward eye relief, IMO.

Quoted: Does the Vector Optics mount interfere with your BUIS?  I want to get one to put in my 30mm QD Larue mount (LT-104) but I'm afraid it won't fit over my GG&G BUIS.

Here's how to figure this out:

Find out the diameter of the Vector eyepiece with any flip caps and divide that by 2.
Subtract that from the centerline height of the LT-104 (1.5").  That gives the highest BUIS you can fit under it.  Alternately, add 1/2 the eyepiced diameter to the GGG BUIS height and see if it's under 1.5".

Here's how to figure this out: Find out the diameter of the Vector eyepiece with any flip caps and divide that by 2. Subtract that from the centerline height of the LT-104 (1.5"). That gives the highest BUIS you can fit under it. Alternately, add 1/2 the eyepiced diameter to the GGG BUIS height and see if it's under 1.5".

or for those of us who suck at math....
here's some pics of my scopes mounted properly for my personal, comfortable eye relief. I shoot with my nose about 2-3" away from the charging handle. If you shoot NTCH then I imagine you'd move the scopes further forward so having flip ups would probably work just fine.



Vector in an SPR-E over troys, you'll notice that  the rear flip eyecap is not on. It fits, but the hinge interfered with the BUIS when adjusting the diopter setting.



this is my GRSC CRS which is externally identical to the millet DMS1, again in a SPR- E.
Have the same issue using flip ups.



this is an IOR 1.1-4 in an SPR. it has the widest occular. This actually isn't set up right in this pic as it lives on a different rifle, but I popped it right over the BUIS to show worst case scenario. It should be about an 11/2" further forward

...hope this helps

Asiparks,

Move your rear BUIS one slot forward man! The BUIS should rest flat on the rear, not up like that. Not wonder why you can't fit the rear scope cover. Silly monkey.

sorry, i chose looks over brains....

I should probably try that.....

ETA: thank god, i'm not as stupid as I thought, It wasn't folded flat as I had the small aperture flipped up...it lies flat now...

Life is too short to buy cheap optics. I'd rather have one AR with quality glass than two AR's with junk on them.

Life is too short to buy cheap optics. I'd rather have one AR with quality glass than two AR's with junk on them.

and I'd rather have intelligent internet conversations with tall supermodels but I get you....

I wouldn't call the DMS junk, nor the vector though both are inexpensive. I wouldn't call the IOR junk either, but you may have facts at hand to support your case.

I have an IOR 1.5-8 that is neither cheap nor junk, but I would feel just as happy, confident and full trousered  grabbing a rifle with any of the "lesser" scopes on, they will serve just as well for those of us that aren't wearing balaclavas and jumping out of helicopters....

rather than just drink the_______Koolaid, I like to try and compare things for myself, that's how I end up with the gear I do.  If I had to sell all my scopes and keep only one, it would be the GRSC CRS, made in China, with Chinese glass, possibly by chinese 8 year olds, because, although not as crispy clear as the IOR's it does everything else, (eye relief, controls, illumination, usefulness of reticle and zoom range), very well indeed.

Anyway, to save you some time searching, here's a quick set of links to other threads you can helpfully pop into and say it's all junk/chinese junk/buy once, cry once/save up for a XXXX or whatever other bollocks you think appropriate...

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=375504
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=376022
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=375783
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=372833
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=369110
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=18&t=326527

Is there a part 2 yet?

price have been changed this year, I have buy Vector 1-4 FFP in September 2007, price I have pay was 125 $ for scope and 32 $ for shipping.
I have return this scope to sunclear (you can see reason on photos), hi promise me that new improved version of scope will be available for this year and when hi send me photos of new scope, my choice was money refund !!
I agree that scope look very nice, but this is all what you will get, a nice exterior. If you looking for nice decoration, you can buy Leupold clone for 40 $ !

Photos of my vector scope :
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/4169/serialbc1.jpg

Scope cover after two days :
http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/1558/capshy0.jpg

Real 1x magnificationhttp://img156.imageshack.us/img156/855/43511113sc6.jpg

You can see "etched glass reticle" and nice reticle illumination (objective lens) himselfhttp://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7980/objectivejb8.jpg

You can use it like flashlight (objective lens) http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/9269/lightnx2.jpg

Dirt and damages inside of scope :
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9177/spotuy4.jpg

And elevation knob :
http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/7541/knobbk8.jpg

part of mails I have send to sunclear about knobs and reticle illumination :

height=8

Hallo Mr.Shen I can't understand elevation and windage adjustment knobs, booth have turn of 72 clicks = 18" or 1.5 foot on 100 yards, but if I start from "0" mark (below of knob) on scope, I have to make 11 complete turns (in opposed direction, from "17" to "0" !?), to go to mark "7" on scope not 7 turns, but 11 !!! I can't know where I am, on 3-17, or 4-17.

height=8

Windage Range is about 120 MOA Elevation Range is about 25 MOA !!! crosshair is active in first 25 MOA, and additional 100 MOA is death. First 5-10 MOA it is very difficult to turn knob.

height=8

Hi Mr. Shen, yes, it is possible to fix, but you have to put apart half of scope, and then is not new any more. I have been looking thro scope today, and I have notes two more things, first, on very low light (half dark) when you put illumination ON , the RED light is good, but GREEN light is blocking all scope, you cant see anything through. Second, this scope don't have minimum magnification 1x, but something between 0.8 and 0.9x, objects through scope are 10% smaller that they actually are

I have many more photos of this fine scope, but I think this is enough for any man to decide about buying this.
New price for Vector Optics 1-4x24 FFP Military Scope is 349 $ + 32 $ shipping = 381 $

wow! yours sucked !

I haven't done a part 2 as I sold my DMS 1's (kept the Vector, make of that what you will ), and as of now my ARs wear the GRSC CRS and the IOR 1.1.  My Vector lives  on my FAL at the mo, so it's not getting an awful lot of range time, but as of it's last outing, it was still working just fine. The furthest out I've shot it is 200yrds, so I've not had any elevation adjustment issues, though I've toyed with the knob and haven't had the illumination go out. And that's on a 308.....
All my illuminated scopes put a fair bit of light out of the front, the brighter the reticle, the more light. The Vector has the brightest, clearest daytime illumination by a large margin, though I've not tried using it as a flashlight....

As far as 1X mag goes, and this holds true for the DMS1, the IOR (which is a 1.1X ), the GRSC and the Vector, the trueness of the 1X will depend on your distance from the object your looking at, and the adjustment of the diopter ring on the occular. Shooting both eyes open at any range, beyond 7 yards everything is about as 1X as my feeble brain is able to tell...again though, your scope seem to be a lemon... did they give you a refund without much arguement ?

I agree that pricing this scope above $200 greatly diminishes it appeal... In my correspondance with Stephen, he suggested that the increase was due to pressure from a large distributer of the scopes in the US who didn't like to be undercut....AFAIK that would be CounterSniper.....


It'll be interesting to see how Troy's DMS scope pans out, as the OEM is Sunclear....

boy i hope this thing doesnt suck. mine is on the way right now and i can tell you that it does not cost 360+$. If you actually want this thing go on ebay and best offer this guy. i got mine for 180 shipped with the mount as well. cant vouch for quality yet but ill keep my fingers crossed.

You will find the  "mount" that comes with it isn't up to the level of the scope itself. You need a real mount to get that scope out front and higher up, esp if you have an A2 front sight. The CAA mount is a great deal at $27 from AIM surplus and what I use for both the DMS-1 and the vector 1.25-4 power.

Bump for info...