I asked this on the AR discussion forum and really didn't get much of an answer. Someone directed me to you...

Are they better?

More reliable?
Durable?
more accurate?

is there any real difference in the parts from one company vs another?  ie Colt, bushy, RRA, DPMS, Armalite, etc?


I have 4 ARs. 3 with Colt uppers, one RRA. I am looking at finding a Colt M16A4 upper, or build using RRA upper with Bushy barrel assembly, or buying a DPMS gov't profile A3 upper. Cost is not a big issue but I'm not looking to throw money away either. Up until now I've been very pleased with my Colt uppers/rifles.
Thanks for any advice.

When it belongs to meof course!

I have a pre-ban Colt and IMO, Colt is no better or worse than a Bushmaster, Armalite, RRA or a DPMS.

As with anything brand name, you are paying for the name....again, just my opinion

In reading the other thread in AR discussion drjarhead question seems to be more along the lines of what parts, materials, and manufacturing, machining and finishing techniques actually differ from one manufacture to another.  It has been said that all or most of the companies get some parts from sub- contractors and that they often get parts from the same sub-contractors.  This brings up questions such as do they order the same parts from the same contractors but with some different specs like a higher grade of finishing or tighter tolerances on certain measurements.  It was said that Colt is the only one that does certain quality checks on its bolts and maintains records of the testing.  It was also said that Colt's does a better (thicker) anodizing on their receivers.  Someone else claimed that only Olympic arms makes their own major parts every body else just gets them from sub-contractors.  

drjarhead was directed to Tweak as a possible source that would have some specific manufactory techniques that distinguish one company's rifle from the other, not my favorite brand is better than yours or my brand X ran great but my brand Y has problems.  I would be interested in hearing about both Les Baer and Wilson as well.  

Simple answer? Surf this board and check the brand names. Colt is almost never mentioned.

More complex answer.

Proper steels (bolt, extension, barrels etc etc) proper Al, proper heat treat, proper plastics, proper technique of manufacture (use of forgings, heat treat then machine, etc.)intense QC checks (proof load testing being one), years of experience.

While there are many subcontractors, the parts sold to Colt are checked and double checked.

I know of one company that got a great deal on a pallet load of USGI A2 rear sight bases, STILL IN THE MILITARY WRAP. WOOHOOO!. Too bad the threads were 180 degs out causing several problems with assembly and zeroing. Not only did this company know about the problems but used all the parts and ordered more. After all, none of its customers would know the difference. Same company that shipped guns without bolt catches when they ran out. Of the couple of hundred that went out only a few were returned.

My Dad used to work at a potato processing plant, place called Lamb-Weston over in E WA. They took in potatoes, graded them, processed them, inspected them, and bagged them.

High grade potatoes, processed well, passing all inspections got McDonalds bags, or whoever supplies McDs.

Lower grade potatoes, quickly processed, inspected for edibility only, got the Fred Meyer brand bags, or equivalent.

Gun parts are no different, good stuff costs more to make due to the cost of labor, time, material, and markup. All else being equal cheaper parts are built cheaper either in one of the above categories or a combination of them.

As for OAI making "all" their own parts, uh uh. They make the lowers, the barrels, triggers, hammers, carbine lower receiver extensions, and some of the uppers in house. Some times they make carbine buffers, charging handles, and a few other little pieces but that's rare. Most of their parts are bought from outside vendors. Mega Machine in Olympia being one sub, Lewis Machine and Tool, aka sorta Armalite, being another. MM makes the barrel extensions and front sight bases among other things, OAI used to, may still be, buy uppers from LMT. All of the above is subject to change as they go where it's cheapest and/or quickest.

Colt, OTOH, makes the extractor, barrel, front sight base, barrel extension, upper receiver, detachable carry handle, charging handle, lower receiver, bolt, carrier key and lower receiver extensions in house. The rest of the parts are from government contractors, not "Vern's House O Parts".

if Colt could make them cheaper, and hold reliability where it's at, they would make them cheaper. We've already seen this with the introduction of plastic parts where plastic doesn't belong.

There are several problems with thinking that it's just a brand name game.

1)It ain't, I've seen enough ARs to know that Colt's are the least problematic. Everyone I know that routinely sees 1,000s of ARs (on the line, in service) a year says the same thing. Things that are better cost more. Why is that acceptable when the comparison is between a Jennings and a SIG but some how it doesn't work with say Colt and Hesse?

2)If you have no engineering/metallurgical/ military/AR background beyond shooting them then the differences are not obvious, with some parts the difference is invisible but profound.

3)If ARs from other companies worked as well as Colt's do you would see big agencies carrying them.

4) Parts AIN'T parts, as the letter from Beryl Meyers, of the FN Sales staff, shows. Saying your parts are "just as good as" only shows an inferiority complex.

5) The vast majority of AR owners never will shoot their rifles hard enough, or often enough, to be able to tell the difference thus allowing the cloners to stay in business.

6) The entire "better than, or just as good as, AND CHEAPER!" arguement doesn't hold economic or logical water. Sorry, it just can't be, as I said above, if they worked as well and were cheaper then all of the M16s and M4s would say OlyArms, or BFI, on the lowers.

7) Little things, like using a cheaper screw to hold on the pistol grip, or omitting the drain hole under the elevation wheel lock screw in the A2 upper, or using a solid screw w/o threadlocker as opposed to a hollow one w/ threadlocker sound like trivial matters. If you never get your rifle wet, or use it for bayonet training they probably are. OTOH.

[edited for typonese]

Thanks everyone.
Thanks, Tweak. Now, do you know where I can find a Colt M16A4 upper?? [:D]

SAW (Specialized Armament Warehouse) Sales, Ken Elmore's company. If he can't get it he can build it.

www.sawlesales.com/

Thanks, Tweak.
I did check them out already. None of what I'm looking for but if they will build it I'll check out that option.

Let me add one thing about Colt barrels.  I have been building M16 uppers for years.  I only use Colt barrels because Colt made the chamber a little looser than other manufacturers who make barrels for AR's.  In full auto fire, the looser chamber results in less problems with extraction.  In semi-auto fire, the tighter chambers make for better long range accuracy.  In combat, the full auto reliability is more of a concern than pinpoint accuracy like you would use an AR for in civilian shooting.  I have used Bushmaster and DPMS barrels and have been able to find some that worked as well as Colt's did in full auto fire.  But the other manufacturers were not consistent.  In other words, I would sometimes get a Bushmaster barrel that had too tight of a chamber and would have extraction problems in full auto firing.  I have never had that problem with a Colt barrel.  If a chamber is chromed, then you cannot enlarge it.  If a chamber is not chromed, then you can enlarge it to provide more reliable full auto function.  I have not found that Colt barrels are any better than the other manufacturers for semi-auto use.  But, I use nothing but Colt barrels for my M16 upper builds as they are so reliable for full auto fire.

Charles Tatum
Alamo Professional Arms

Interesting timing of this thread now that I think about it. Wife asked me what I wanted for father's day and I picked a Bushy M4 14.5" upper with perm affixed phantom. Get the thing and they sent it with the FS in a bag next to the upper. So I send it back and now 2 weeks later get it back but the ARMS #19S and 40 I got for it won't go on. The rail is out of spec. Am I pissed? Nawww. Okay, yeah I'll admit it, I am PISSED!
Shit went right on one of my Colt uppers, FWIW.
Back again and I'll tell Bushmaster tomorrow that if there is anything else wrong with it they can keep it. I've purchased parts and tools from Bushmaster before but never a rifle, upper or lower.

I would be too!  Get Bushy to replace it.  IIRC BTW Bushy is one of the 3 makes that ARMS gaurantees their products will work on (the other two being Colt and Armalite IIRC).

Talked to them this AM and it will go back for a new upper rec. Hopefully this will be it!

When it comes to a rifle that will be used in a defensive or offensive role, Colt and Bushmaster are the only brands worth looking at.  If we are talking about Colt's military and LEO offerings, there rifles are definitely better than BM's.  Being a gov't contractor, they have to follow all sorts of testing regimes and specs for the rifle they supply to the gov't or they could get sactioned.  However, some of these tests/specs really only matter if you are going to fire the rifle on full-auto, and as they cost money to run/implement, are not done by other manufacturers.

Where BM comes into the picture, is in civilian sales.  Colt's civilian rifles are not the same as their LEO/military offerings in more ways then just cosmetics.  With the exception of the MT6400 (their postban M4 variant), they don't have crome lined barrels, they don't have a push pin for the front take down pin, have non-milspec fire control parts (actually the 6400 has this problem too), use plastic buffers and trap doors, etc.  Bushmaster on the other hand does offer civilian rifles with the proper mil-spec features that Colt lacks (yes BM does use thread locker and drain holes on their buttstock screws).  Granted, more BM rifles have fuctioning issues out of the box than Colt because they don't run all the tests, but they are better building blocks for a defensive rifle.  I have also noticed, that as a general rule, civilian BM rifles have better fit and finish than civilian Colt rifles.

So in my opinion, if you can get a LEO restricted rifle, go Colt, if you are stuck to civilian postban offerings, BM is the way to go, with the exception of the Colt MT6400.  If you have a preban or registered receiver, then Colt would be the better, although much more expensive, choice.  

One last thing, for standard A2 uppers, BM's are basically at the same level as Colt's, with the exception of barrel twist rate.  The A2 as you will note, was the improvement on the A1 and as a result has most of its flaws and issues worked out and since the patent has run out, there is not really any inside knowledge on how to make it work.  With the the M4 however, Colt did develope it, and has a better grasp on all its flaws and issues, and as a result has the resources and knowledge on how to modify things to improve its reliability.  In this regard, BM just can't compete, at least not until the patent runs out, and time and use has reveal all its weaknesses and fixes.

I've got a Colt blue label carbine and two preban rebuilt lowers with milspec parts and Colt M4 uppers. 4th is a RRA postban. Getting a Bushy M4 upper -- as noted a few issues. I'm sure they will be worked out. Waiting for the AW ban to die and plan on being well set up for that when it comes hopefully.

A little irritated with the bushy as this is the 2nd time its going back. None of the others have had any problems except for a very minor, easy to fix problem with the RRA. I really have to say I'm pretty sold on Colt uppers and probably won't buy anything else again. Lowers are another story. I would like to get a pair of milspec LEO lowers to plan ahead with but that is another story.

Thanks.

It was beggin for a tackinlinkin'.

Colt should be better normally.  They have a great plant and lotsa qa guys.  There are two different grades of parts (one for the military and one for retail) but they should be fine.

I'm hearing a lot of criticism of Colt from police though.  And they're having a lot of trouble with their M4s.  But they've still got that name and the horsey.

OK, the horsey might belong to somebody else, but they get to use it and nobody else does.

When you are stabbed in the back do not pull the knife out hand it back to the COMPANY that stabbed you and turn your back to them.

So why is Colt any better then?

If they have "civilian  grade" parts, that puts them in the same category as the other manufacturers.

Is Colt doing all the testing on their civilian offerings?  I kinda doubt it.

Hi guys,
At some point over the next couple of months I plan to purchase an AR15.  I've enjoyed reading your message board and have learned some things.
The "Colt vs Bushmaster and the others" discussion is interesting.  Tweak offers some good points.  Here's one of my own.  One of the things you're paying for when you buy a Colt is the United Auto Worker Union.  I'm not going to argue whather or not that constitutes true value added or not, you can decide.  However, for my part, I don't like the idea of buying from a company that can't seem to make up it's mind whether or not it is in business, or whether or not it values me as a customer.  Colt doesn't seem willing to commit to the civilian firearms buyer.  They haven't published a catalog in years.  Apparently they're too preoccupied with military and law enforcement sales.  Regarding this point, Colt has also gone to the obnoxius extreme of changing the pin sizes on their rifles offered for civilian sale in an effort to make conversions harder.  Uh, note to Colt, fully automatic weapons are legal in many states provided you've got the proper Class III paperwork.  Bushmaster at least wants my business and from what I've gleaned from reading this forum, is willing to stand behind their product.  Bushmaster is also one of the authorized suppliers of mil.spec. weapons to the D.O.D.  Right now I'm leaning in favor of Bushmaster as representing the best overall value for the dollar.  Hopefully I'm not about to make a $1,000.00 mistake.
Coolio

Yup, I'll agree that Colt really doesn't seem to give a shit whether they get our business or not. Short sighted...



After 2 trips back my upper does shoot fine. Accurate and not a problem. Colt's M4 uppers I've picked up are a little better quality. That would be MO and I would buy more of their uppers. Not interested in their non milspec lowers, FWIW.



Not so sure about that, I guess. That has been pretty well beaten to death on this board and if they are I suspect it is on a very limited basis.



Probably right about that.
I will probably pick up a couple of their lowers and a couple of Colt uppers for the death of the ban. Hope springs eternal.

Hi drjarhead,
Thanks for your comments to my recent post.
I just read that Heckler & Koch has signed an agreement to build a plant somewhere in Georgia.  Does anybody think that this may have anything to do with speculation that the D.O.D. may switch over to a new battle rifle along the lines of the H&K G36?  And if so, what about a civilian, semi auto version?  Maybe in the future we won't even be having this conversation about "Colt vs Bush......"
Coolio

Er--Uh-- Excuse me, but, how do I say this tactfully?

Aw to hell with it... Sombody has sold you a line of shit with this.

FN is the sole source contractor for M-16A2's. Colt is the sole source contractor for M-4's. As i understand it Bushmaster did a VERRY limited run of M-4's durring gulf war 1, 13 years ago. They were later droped by the DOD.

Bushmaster DOES have better customer service than Colt! Furthermore, they value their civilian customers more! This is because the civilian market is nearly all of Bushmasters sales.

Colt DOES have a better quality product with their MilSpec/LEO versions and parts. I have little to no experiance with their non Milspec stuff so I can't comment on it.

Bushmaster SCREWED me a few years back on a high dollar fluted barrel. Therefore, I will not deal with Bushmaster.

It's YOUR hard earned money! Choose as you wish. This is just my experiance. As always YMMV.

Which is meaningless to 95% of us on these boards

Well, My two bits.

I bought a Colt a while ago.. Back when my choices were "Colt" or "build it yourself". (Bushmaster was still making that weird "Arm Gun" thing..)

Anyhow, a friend had a R6700CH in his shop. Big Money. 1200.00 when SP1's were maybe 500.00

I asked why it was so much more. His response? "It's a target version. Very accurate". It was. VERY accurate, and has proven to be trememdously reliable. Literally NO gun related problems. The only issues I've had with this rifle have been mag related. Using USGI mags eliminated this. I did encounter one brand of ammo that was unreliable, but it was crap in near ALL 5.56mm rifles.

Colt as a company has done some dumb things. But making a quality product in my experience was never an issue.  Mine works.

Flawlessly.

Meplat-

Sorry dude!

Let me explain,

Seems Colt MilSpec parts are available (Uppers, bolts, buffers, etc). It may take some looking, and additional expense to find though. Lowers and fire control milspec parts are really tough to find.

There are some preban rifles out there that are milspec with the exception of the fire control group. I would go with one of these and a high quality after market fire control group such as Accuracy Speaks.

Hope this helps.

For what it's worth, MOST of us civilian shooters will never torture our rifles to the point that requires all the MilSpec stuff. So alot of this seems to be nice to have stuff. A select few out there will benifit from it.

Hi M4_Man, drjarhead and you other guys who have set me straight on the "Bushmaster as supplier to the D.O.D."
Thanks for the info.  My source on this question was "The Complete AR-15 Source Book" which was copyrighted in 1990.  So thirteen years ago for any Bushmaster involvement with the D.O.D. would be about right.
At any rate, it doesn't bear directly on the question of whether or not I would buy from them either way, so I went ahead and ordered my rifle last Friday after work and expect it to be in either today or tomorrow.
I'll keep everyone posted as to the results.
Here's keeping my fingers crossed.
Coolio  

Great. Let us know how it shoots.

Tweak,What makes a Colt better?

delusion..

[IM sent. Post edited to clarify who was asking and who was answering-Tweak]

Hi Guys,
Late Friday afternoon I picked up my new Bushmaster.  I bought the "standard" rifle, XM15 E2S with the A3 upper receiver and the 20" HBAR.  I read the instruction manual that night.  On Saturday I field stripped it and gave the barrel a basic cleaning with some Shooters Choice and the bolt a brushing and relube with CLP.  Sunday I took it to the firing range for a sight in session and basic function test using UMC 55 grain "yellow box" ammo ("yellow box" ALWAYS works).  When I got to the range they were conducting a couple of hunter safety classes in addition to the usual people there, but there was still some room left at the 50 yard range so I settled on that as my starting place.  I shot three, three shot groups to sight in.  The factory sight adjustment was basically right on.  I only had to move the windage knob a couple of clicks to get it exactly on.
I split the receivers after those first nine shots and cleaned the barrel again.  Then I shot three, five shot groups.  The gun cycled the UMC ammo without incident, flinging the empties to the same spot each time so it wasn't hard to collect my brass for reloading later.  My last five shot group tore one ragged hole touching the X ring at twelve o'clock on a 3" 50' pistol bullseye.  I was pretty satisfied with this result using battle sights even though I was only shooting at 50 yards.
I would have hung around and played some more, but the sky looked like it was getting ready to unload and I had accomplished my basic plan, so I it packed up.
Am I happy now?  Yup!
Coolio

Bushmaster in Auburn ME is about a 90 minute drive from my home. Because of this I order parts frequently from their website-UPS ground shipping only takes one day to arrive.

That being said a few years ago I got to know their service department very, very well with my 20" XM15. Between the overtorqued and cockeyed barrel, the feeding and ejection problems, and the soft FCG parts I learned my lesson about trying to save a few bucks.

I'm not surprised that Bushmaster has decent customer service-they got a lot of practice with my rifle. It went back to them three times before I finally gave up and sold it at a loss.

Here's a great thread if you want to learn more about BFI's build quality:

AR15 deficiencies

Tweak, care to comment on Colt's QC history?   Do you know of a time, say the 80's or 90's, when QC at colt basically sucked for the civilian market?   Or IYO have they always had the best QC for AR15's? thanks

Thanks a bunch. That is an awesome thread and I would encourage everyone on this site to read it. My thanks to Tweak, as well, for all the great info.

Quoted: Tweak, care to comment on Colt's QC history?

As the "defenders of the clones" are so likely to say, "everyone has had troubles with QC/QA."

Colt has had the least, and smallest, troubles.

Tweak,
What are your opinions on the various lowers available today? I definitely would want milspec push pins and am vacillating between Eagle Arms and Bushie.

Will build rest with all Colt parts, stock, complete Colt upper.

Yes, but i want to know if there is a certain period that i should try to avoid buying from, if possible.  Can you tell me if there is a certain time when QC was poor compared to normal production history? thanks

danonly,

Honestly, you'd have to get with a Colt afficionado for info like that. I've never worried about minutiae like model numbers, label colors, or how who made what when. I only pay attention to if they work and for how long.

If you're stuck between BFI and EA go for the BFI. They have wonderful customer service.

any chance Colt is going to go back to milspec on their lowers? I saw what you said about them going back to standard milpsec H/T pins but what about front push pin and sear block?
Wondered if you had heard any inside info.

DrJarHead, my newest Colt is a 6400c M4 carbine. It has a front push pin and does [b]not[/b] have a sear block like my other two Colts. It also has a chrome-lined chamber and barrel. Here are two different angles of the lower:

[img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/Colt_Lower_copy.JPG[/img]

[img]http://home.comcast.net/~cjan99999/M4_Lower.JPG[/img]

Quoted: Quoted: Colt should be better normally.  They have a great plant and lotsa qa guys.  There are two different grades of parts (one for the military and one for retail) but they should be fine. So why is Colt any better then? If they have "civilian  grade" parts, that puts them in the same category as the other manufacturers. Is Colt doing all the testing on their civilian offerings?  I kinda doubt it.

All Colt barrels and bolts are magnaflux/magnetic particle tested during assembly. That's what the "MP" means on a Colt barrel. If I remember correctly my old Bushy barrel was particle tested too.

As far as internal parts, the only difference in a government bolt versus a commercial bolt for example is that the governement bolt is datecoded. They are both subjected to the same tests. As far as different "grades" of parts go many civilian, LE, and government parts have the exact same part numbers. These parts include the firing pin, bolt cam pin, carbine bolt assembly, extractor pin, extractor, extractor spring, ejector pin, ejector, ejector spring, gas rings, bolt carrier key, gas tube etc etc etc...

Quoted: any chance Colt is going to go back to milspec on their lowers?

They've been using standard pin (H/T and pivot) sizes for awhile now.

Edited to add that you can still find all combinations of pin sizes floating around.

Wondered if you had heard any inside info.

Not being on the "inside" it would be rather difficult.

Quoted: All Colt barrels and bolts are magnaflux/magnetic particle tested during assembly. That's what the "MP" means on a Colt barrel.

The "P" is for Proof load tested. The "M" is as you stated. Both barrel and bolt should be marked as they are both tested.

As far as internal parts, the only difference in a government bolt versus a commercial bolt for example is that the governement bolt is datecoded.

While there is a chance the guy has some misappropriated .mil bolts, an ARfer I've recently talked to has date coded (MPNC and MPKC IIRC) bolts in his commercial builds. They could have fallen into his rifles the same way those supposed "FN" parts so often do. I'm pretty sure that the assemblers just grab whatever is near to hand tho with the non "milspec" parts being pushed to the front of the .civ lines.

Yeah, add that to the list of extras Colt throws in. You know date coding on top of using the correct steel in the carrier and bolt, and shot peening, and...oh, you get the drift.

Excellent pics. Thanks.
I'll pick up a few of their lowers. Had no idea they had gone back to basics on their lowers-- haven't seen a NIB Colt rifle in the gunshops in my area for about 5 years. No shit.

The "P" is for Proof load tested. The "M" is as you stated. Both barrel and bolt should be marked as they are both tested.

Thanks for the clarification

Clarification?

Some would call it a peeve and a pet one at that.

[board code]

It is the barrel and chamber that makes a big difference. My Colt barrels have never given me a problem but the others have. Used to be able to get them for under 200 each. Wish I had bought a few extra.
The Colt firing pin retaining pins are the best also. Slip right in no problem. Seems like the pin is a simple thing what could be different. Not sure what it is but there is a difference.

Now here is the question I have.

I am going to get an LMT M4 setup with a few, and I do mean a few, bells and whistles.

Are LMT uppers, lowers, and stocks better then Colt?

Tweak, you may be a little out of date.

Per Olympic Arms, 2004

We manufacture every major component of the AR15 rifle. This includes, but is not limited to (in case I miss something....)

1. Upper receiver A2
2. Upper A1
3. Upper receiver A3
4. Upper receiver A1 cast
5. Lower receiver forged A2
6. Lower receiver Cast
7. barrel
8. Barrel extension
9. Bolt
10. Bolt carrier [semi]
11. Hammer
12. Trigger
13. Bolt catch
14. Safety selector
15. Handguards A2
16. Handguards Aluminum Free-float [all lengths]
17. Handguards FIRSH [all lengths]
18. Trigger guards
19. Delta Ring
20. Charging handle
21. Charging handle latch
22. Front sight base
23. Muzzle Brake
24. Receiver extension tube
25. Buffer; buttstock [purchase some to suppliment from time to time]
26. Mag catch button
27. Buttstock spacer [supplimented]
28. Extractor
29. Cam pin
30. bolt carrier [full]
31. A1 sight aperture [just started casting these]
32. A2 sight aperture [just started casting these, as well]
33. carrier keys [same as above]

...and I probably missed one or two, plus variants of the above.

Things we own tooling for that are manufactured exclusively for us:
1. EXring extractor buffer
2. Espring ejector spring
3. Titanium mag springs
4. Espring Extractor Spring
5. handguards
6. pistol grips

Things we buy:
1. springs
2. pins
3. screws
4. lock washers
5. standard gas rings

Oly uses 4720 Carpenter Steel, or an identical, approved milspec alternate out of Ontario, Canada to build their bolts. Depends on what's in stock in Tacoma.

Oly also now makes all their bolt carriers, both full and semi auto with the shrouded firing pin.

At the last gunshow I worked, I found out that they are using M4 type barrel extensions on all their 5.56 Nato barrels. There were no new SUM barrels to inspect, though.

Thought I'd say something before you were set upon by ill-tempered seabass.