UltiMAK 3 rail fore-end ACR2 test

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - UltiMAK 3 rail fore-end ACR2 test

Posted: 10/12/2004 8:48:24 PM EDT

Folks,
Lyle called me up and we went to the range last week to test the new ACR2 design. This thing is sweet! We attached all the blah-blah to the rails to try to induce failure, and there was no failure. The other test (done in the shop) was to smack the rifle on a table from a couple feet away (table leg is a 4x4, carpet on the top surface) to try to break the mounting system. Held like a champ! Based on what I was told tonight these should start pooping out of the CNC gear and into the anodizing vats within a few weeks; retail availability will be a few weeks later. One question Lyle had was, would you rather have a slightly shorter rail that enables bayonet mounting, or a longer VEPR-style that comes to the front of the gas block? The production mount (the first version) will fit pretty much everything EXCEPT Saiga shotguns and Krinkovs.
Here's a picture of the test mule. Remember, all the gear on the rails was to raise the mass to try to get the clamps to fail in recoil.

(click the picture for a bigger view)
I don't know anything about pricing. It's been a long haul, but it's worth it!

Posted: 10/12/2004 10:07:58 PM EDT

[#1]

Thats awesome. Been waiting to hear how it was going. Must have! Any more pics, particuarly close ups would be great. Thanks!

Posted: 10/12/2004 10:12:50 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
Thats awesome. Been waiting to hear how it was going. Must have! Any more pics, particuarly close ups would be great. Thanks!

I don't have anything close up, the picture on UltiMAK's website shows the current design. I have some earlier pictures in the white here.

Posted: 10/13/2004 12:45:31 AM EDT

[#3]

You mean I'm going to have to wait two more months for this thing? ARRRRG! I've wanted it bad for two months and have a project stalled waiting for it. I can't wait. Looks very cool, thanks for the review.

Posted: 10/13/2004 6:43:44 AM EDT

[#4]

More importantly, is there gonna be anything in the offing for us Saiga-12 owners?

Posted: 10/13/2004 7:03:33 AM EDT

[#5]

That set up makes the Tapco stock actually look ok

. I traded mine away for a Lee Aniversery Reloading set.

Posted: 10/13/2004 8:14:52 AM EDT

[#6]

UltiMAK has both a Saiga 20 and a Saiga 12. I know they intend to release a mount for both, the question is if it's one mount that works on both or is it two mounts.

Posted: 10/13/2004 8:37:03 AM EDT

[#7]

Will it either be cheaper than the TDI mount or have a heat sheild?

Posted: 10/13/2004 8:53:38 AM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
Will it either be cheaper than the TDI mount or have a heat sheild?

I don't know how much the TDI mount is and I don't know the retail price of the ACR2.
I do know, however, that we dumped a lot of mags and drums through the gun shown and the fore-end got warm. Providing thermal isolation is one of the key design goals of this fore-end.

Posted: 10/13/2004 9:15:58 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Will it either be cheaper than the TDI mount or have a heat sheild?

I don't know how much the TDI mount is and I don't know the retail price of the ACR2.
I do know, however, that we dumped a lot of mags and drums through the gun shown and the fore-end got warm. Providing thermal isolation is one of the key design goals of this fore-end.

Not to bash or anything, I purchased a TDI lower guard with 3 rails for $45. Its not heat shielded but its not been a problem yet. I'd hate to see you guys bring out another forend thats priced like the B&T one and have dismal sales. If I remember right those were above $200.

You can get the tdi lower for $45-50 and the upper for $15 I think. I realize yours is one piece and is probably more rigid but I wouldnt buy one at $100. Of course thats my view and doesnt represent the AK crowd as a whole.

Just speculation. I'm always glad to see someone bring new products to the market place though.

Posted: 10/13/2004 10:22:31 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Not to bash or anything, I purchased a TDI lower guard with 3 rails for $45. Its not heat shielded but its not been a problem yet. I'd hate to see you guys bring out another forend thats priced like the B&T one and have dismal sales. If I remember right those were above $200.

Just to be clear, Lyle is my friend and we hang out a lot but I have no official capacity at UltiMAK. I'm only relaying information and pictures that I have cleared with Lyle.

That said, I don't know anyone that's been able to actually buy the B&T version even though I've seen ads for it for months. The UltiMAK will be here shortly. Looking at the B&T design, it appears the ACR2 has several important advantages. As for dismal sales, I can't address that as I don't know how well or poorly the B&T unit is or is not selling. A quad rail system for an AR can sells for north of $200, and I see a lot of those in the wild.

You can get the tdi lower for $45-50 and the upper for $15 I think. I realize yours is one piece and is probably more rigid but I wouldnt buy one at $100.

I've never seen the TDI product, so I can't comment on it's fit and finish. It looks like it's plastic, so it's not really in the same product space.

One problem (the primary problem) with both the B&T and TDI designs is once you attach something, there's nowhere to put your hand. Putting a forward pistol grip on either means you have no room to get your hand under there if you wish to not use the pistol grip. If you put a bipod or flashlight under there, again, you have no room for your hand. With the ACR2, you have room to attach your gear and still use the forend area as originally designed.

Posted: 10/13/2004 10:24:32 AM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
That set up makes the Tapco stock actually look ok . I traded mine away for a Lee Aniversery Reloading set.

UltiMAK bought a bunch of folders to try out on different guns, and that one got the TAPCO. I must admit I don't like it very much; the design doesn't lock when folded and the lock is pretty cheesy. I really like my Choate stock.

Posted: 10/13/2004 10:58:26 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Not to bash or anything, I purchased a TDI lower guard with 3 rails for $45. Its not heat shielded but its not been a problem yet. I'd hate to see you guys bring out another forend thats priced like the B&T one and have dismal sales. If I remember right those were above $200.

Just to be clear, Lyle is my friend and we hang out a lot but I have no official capacity at UltiMAK. I'm only relaying information and pictures that I have cleared with Lyle.

That said, I don't know anyone that's been able to actually buy the B&T version even though I've seen ads for it for months. The UltiMAK will be here shortly. Looking at the B&T design, it appears the ACR2 has several important advantages. As for dismal sales, I can't address that as I don't know how well or poorly the B&T unit is or is not selling. A quad rail system for an AR can sells for north of $200, and I see a lot of those in the wild.

You can get the tdi lower for $45-50 and the upper for $15 I think. I realize yours is one piece and is probably more rigid but I wouldnt buy one at $100.

I've never seen the TDI product, so I can't comment on it's fit and finish. It looks like it's plastic, so it's not really in the same product space.

One problem (the primary problem) with both the B&T and TDI designs is once you attach something, there's nowhere to put your hand. Putting a forward pistol grip on either means you have no room to get your hand under there if you wish to not use the pistol grip. If you put a bipod or flashlight under there, again, you have no room for your hand. With the ACR2, you have room to attach your gear and still use the forend area as originally designed.

The TDI is plastic. It is large enough to have both an attachment on it and grip the stock. I use a vert grip, a light and I tend to hold it like a standard rifle when prone or shooting for precision. The price is a cost point here as well. People will spend $400 on a SIR system for a $1200 rifle, they are less inclined to buy a $200 SIR type system for a $300 AK. I know I wouldnt. I realize that you're just passing info on to us, I'm just pointing out things the way I see it.

Posted: 10/13/2004 11:59:50 AM EDT

[#13]

nice piece..will it fit short ak74 type AIR ?
thanks

Posted: 10/13/2004 2:01:21 PM EDT

[#14]

It looks nice. I agree with LHD though. Hopefully this will be in the same price range as Kreb's railed handguard. At $125, it's not a bad price. I too have the TDI handguard and it's held up real nice. The only thing I don't like about these handguards is it's damn near impossible to mount a vert grip and get a fast mag change on the 7.62x39 AK's. It's possible but you need to mount the vert grip all the way out front. That's what I like about this one and Kreb's. You can slip an AR15 rail cover over the rails if you don't want to use a grip.

Posted: 10/13/2004 5:00:00 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
nice piece..will it fit short ak74 type AIR?

I don't know. If the distance between the gas block and the trunion is the same as a standard AK, then yes. Otherwise, no.

Posted: 10/13/2004 5:04:09 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
The price is a cost point here as well. People will spend $400 on a SIR system for a $1200 rifle, they are less inclined to buy a $200 SIR type system for a $300 AK.

I've never understood this argument. I put a $1200 scope on my $1200 rifle, so what? I put a $400 optic on my $400 MAK-90, which also has a $100 UltiMAK mount and a $90 stock. I put $500 worth of tires on my $600 truck. I put $50 dvds into my $30 dvd player. I have put about $6000 worth of software on my $1500 computer. It doesn't matter, I wanted to increase the utility not sweat the price.

I'd put a $2000 winch on a $600 truck, too.

Posted: 10/13/2004 5:47:54 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
The price is a cost point here as well. People will spend $400 on a SIR system for a $1200 rifle, they are less inclined to buy a $200 SIR type system for a $300 AK.

I've never understood this argument. I put a $1200 scope on my $1200 rifle, so what? I put a $400 optic on my $400 MAK-90, which also has a $100 UltiMAK mount and a $90 stock. I put $500 worth of tires on my $600 truck. I put $50 dvds into my $30 dvd player. I have put about $6000 worth of software on my $1500 computer. It doesn't matter, I wanted to increase the utility not sweat the price.

I'd put a $2000 winch on a $600 truck, too.

Would you put a $1200 scope on a rifle thats not capable of more than 4 moa? Would you use composite cables on an analog tv with a VCR? Would you put a $15k race suspension on a car you only use to sit in traffic on the drive to work? Granted if its CNC itll be heftier than a TDI but will it do more than a TDI? What does it offer that the TDI wont already meet? I dont need rock solid micron measured CNC steel to mount a vert grip and weapon light.

edit: I'm not bashing, I'm still just looking for info.

Posted: 10/13/2004 5:53:17 PM EDT

[#18]

i would like to see something like an SIR setup for a longer sight radius
but thats just me

Posted: 10/17/2004 6:32:47 PM EDT

[#19]

I talked to Lyle today, the mounts have been in production for several days. That means the extrusion is being milled into mounts, steel stock is being turned into clamps, screws are ordered - all that. Once there are enough foreends for one load at the anodizer (I do not know when this is) they will deliver them to the anodizer and get rolling. A cycle with the anodizer takes about a week, then they will be for sale. No word on price because there is one part they still don't have a price on.

I don't know if they're using the anodizer in Spokane or Seattle. If they go with the one in Seattle, it will take longer because they have to box them up and ship them over. If they go with the one in Spokane, they just box them up and drive them across town, cutting days out of the cycle.

As soon as I know anything more, I will post it in this thread.

Posted: 10/17/2004 7:27:56 PM EDT

[#20]

Price and avaliablity! Thanks for keeping us informed.

Posted: 10/17/2004 7:55:05 PM EDT

[#21]

I'll be keeping an eye out.

Posted: 10/18/2004 4:51:19 PM EDT

[#22]

I stopped by the shop today and asked a series of questions - the only one that Lyle had the answer for was "short". The first run of ACR2 will be the shorter version. The drawings for the other version (VEPR-length) are done, but they're not getting any now.

No word on schedule.

Posted: 10/18/2004 5:12:33 PM EDT

[#23]

Being shorter, it won't look like what's on their website?

Posted: 10/18/2004 5:31:44 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:
Being shorter, it won't look like what's on their website?

it will be about 3/4" shorter to clear the bayonet lug.

Posted: 11/10/2004 8:55:43 AM EDT

[#25]

Lyle stopped by last night and picked up my rifle. Why? They were making a run up to the machinists with all of the test AKs to do a final fitting. There are over a dozen completed ACR2 part sets (ACR2, clamps, screws, etc). If they're approved, the next step is anodizing. After that comes the selling!

I'll stop by and bug them tonight to see how the trip went, and I'll let you guys know.

Posted: 11/10/2004 1:11:44 PM EDT

[#26]

How similar/different is this system compared to the B&T (Brugger & Thomet) AK mount? I assume Ultimak's rail system still need the Ultimak mount to mount a Eotech or Aimpoint, correct?

www.dsarms.com/item-detail.cfm?ID=BT21428&storeid=1&image=btak47hg.gif

One of my long term gun objectives is to make a Sako 95 clone in .223 (most likely on a Saiga receiver but using Russian .223 magazines). This would be a cool addition to it.

Thanks,

themao

Edited to add: I know the Sako 95 uses a milled receiver, but you get the idea. That Valmet board (I forget which one) had a few pics of a Sako 95 with the B&T handguard. Who needs an AR-15?

Posted: 11/10/2004 1:19:47 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
I assume Ultimak's rail system still need the Ultimak mount to mount a Eotech or Aimpoint, correct?

Yes. Also, the UltiMAK ACR2 comes forward to the gas block - from the picture it appears the B&T mount replaces the lower handguard, to it has less mounting surface.

Edited to add: I know the Sako 95 uses a milled receiver, but you get the idea. That Valmet board (I forget which one) had a few pics of a Sako 95 with the B&T handguard. Who needs an AR-15?

Lyle and I were just talking about this the other night. Keep in mind we both have AR15 clones, and for me, my AR15 is my rifle of choice. However, for $1500 you can buy an AK, a nice stock, a red dot optic, an UltiMAK M1 and ACR2, a bipod, flashlight, and forward pistol grip.

Plus, the magazines for the AK are more robust and more widely available.

Posted: 11/23/2004 9:20:03 PM EDT

[#28]

For those subscribed to this thread, it's for sale now. See this post.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - UltiMAK 3 rail fore-end ACR2 test

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