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Posted: 10/17/2007 11:58:27 AM EDT
[#1]
What do you think caused it to fire from an unlocked position? Is there an obstruction or a burr on a locking lug or something?
Why didn't the tang on the rear of the bolt carrier prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin? |
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Posted: 10/17/2007 9:40:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Hi. I think think that low quality control is the problem. If you have SLR, put a coin between the barrel and the slide. Then try to dryfire.
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Posted: 10/17/2007 9:54:26 PM EDT
[#3]
The suspected cause for this critical failure is the bolt not locking in. The reasons for that are complex. First of all hunting rifles based on AK lack some key mechanical parts of the original rifle. That is done so the rifle couldn't be "remade" to full auto. Unfortunately those parts act as safety that disables the weapon to fire without being fully locked. In the Civilian variant of the rifle the matter is resolved differently. The factory quality control actualy tests each individual rifle with the bolt in forward but unlocked position. Rifles that do fire are scrapped. It would seam that "Arsenal" as beaing cheap communist era SOBs, decided to skip that process and save some dollars. A quick check at different gun stores, with the full support of gun traders, several "Arsenal" SLRs of different models where checked if they would fire unlocked. The tests proved that this happens in most of them, though not all of them. After this incident some similar cases have surfaced. "Arsenal" dodged the matter and over a month they avoided making the promised "expertize" on the blown up rifle. As a result legal action was forced. It should be mentioned further that the incident happend with the use of "Arsenal" made ammo, which lead tip being suspiciosly soft, might broken off and obscured the lug groove, so preventing the bolt from locking. Without the safety of the original AK, the rifle fired from unlocked bolt and caused the explosion, thankfully without the cost of life, this time.
P.S.: Follow the link for all the photos of the blown "Arsenal SLR 95": www.jose.snimka.bg/album.php?album_id=183294 |
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Posted: 10/18/2007 5:59:45 AM EDT
[#4]
Wow. I'm not doubting your word, but could you cite your source? I would love to pass this information on to other forums with documentation if possible. |
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Posted: 10/18/2007 6:39:15 AM EDT
[#5]
The source of what? I've seen myself Jose's blown up SLR 95 and talked to experts, gunsmiths and gun traders. The source is Jose and myself, first hand. We are talking about an exact case and its consequences here in Bulgaria. People in the gun business, hunters and enthusiasts are troubled by this ocurence. That's all. The Court of law has its turn. The incident itself happened on a shooting range with plenty of witnesses, some of witch work at different law enforcement agencies, here in Bulgaria. It's all been well documented (you saw the photos), protocoled and filed.
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Posted: 10/18/2007 6:49:21 AM EDT
[#6]
I just wanted you to post a link to a news article or something showing Arsenal's legal troubles you described. Your post was very detailed and I wondered if perhaps it was because you are in the legal profession and were personally involved in Arsenal's legal case. I simply wanted to have a link to an article in the press or some other independent source. I wanted to post this information elsewhere and I was anticipating what we Americans call "The Third Degree" of intense questioning by the forum readers. I intended no offense toward you. |
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Posted: 10/18/2007 7:06:21 AM EDT
[#7]
I am a gun enthusiast myself and an author in the Bulgarian GUNS.BG magazine. I do not have a direct involvment in the legal case, but I am pissed that a dear friend could have lost his life. And the way Arsenal is acting, without much care doesn't help about it's overall negative opinion among the Bulgarian gun enthusiast public.
To be honest it is very unlikely that Bulgarian press would publish negative article about government owned weapon manifacturer and main supplier to the Bulgarian Armed Forces. Though GUNS.BG magazine might publish an article on the subject next month. Jose himself is an author in the GUNS.BG magazine. We don't have online articles published, sorry. The legal action is just started anyway. I'll keep you posted. |
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Posted: 10/18/2007 7:35:21 AM EDT
[#8]
This is the answer I was looking for. I suspected there might be reasons why the Bulgarian press would not publish a negative article about a state-run manufacturer. Publishing an article in your magazine GUNS.BG would definitely be something we would all be interested in. Is there an English-language version? Are you affiliated with the United States version of GUNS magazine? Would they be able to translate and re-publish the article? Please do keep us posted. This is something very much of interest and you potentially have a real opportunity to publish something that could be read worldwide. |
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Posted: 10/18/2007 7:39:58 AM EDT
[#9]
No Enlish version and no affiliation with the US GUNS magazine. But I will do all I can to send you the article both in Bulgarian and English once it's published.
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Posted: 10/18/2007 7:49:38 AM EDT
[#10]
I would appreciate that...but for the benefit of all readers... Would you consider creating an internet blog where everyone could read the article in English and whatever other languages you choose? US magazines have done this. Many, maybe all, charge a fee to read it online, of course. |
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Posted: 10/18/2007 8:03:46 AM EDT
[#11]
We'll consider it. Thanks for the advice.
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Posted: 10/18/2007 8:09:09 AM EDT
[#12]
What are these key parts that cause a lack of safety? How about some pictures to show the differences?
Who or what is your source for this information?
It would seem to me that you're speculating.
Again, you're speculating a lot. But, given that it's Arsenal ammo and an Arsenal rifle, the problem, whatever it was, most likely originated with them. Here in the US, they would pretty much have to prove the shooter did something wrong (given that they made the rifle and ammo). |
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Posted: 10/18/2007 8:21:10 AM EDT
[#13]
The auto sear (i.e. the part that goes on the legendary "third pin") also acts as a safety lever in full auto weapons. I've often thought that semi-auto only AK's are potentially unsafe due to the possibility of firing out of battery. Usually the rear tang on the bolt carrier prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin unless the weapon's bolt is closed and locked, but the possibility exists that the tang won't block the hammer in some rifles. Since the AK action is not "timed", only these safety measures prevent other KaBooms. Insaint and jose1 are alleging that Arsenal's loose quality control does not compensate for the lack of the auto sear/safety sear in semi-auto only rifles. |
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Posted: 10/18/2007 12:57:07 PM EDT
[#14]
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Posted: 10/18/2007 2:02:11 PM EDT
[#15]
Yes! Please! We are all honestly trying to figure this out, so please don't be insulted if we ask for more info! It is difficult to tell just from the pics exactly what happened. I agree with some who are of the opinion that it could have been bad ammo as much as a bad rifle. 
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Posted: 10/18/2007 3:49:50 PM EDT
[#16]
I find an out of battery kaboom very unlikely unless the rear of the bolt carrier or tail of the bolt are grossly out of spec.
Looking at a Romanian SAR-2: The bolt doesn't even begin to unlock until the carrier has moved a good 1/4 inch or more. Basically the spike on the rear of the carrier is in position to block the hammer when the bolt begins to turn. This gun isn't going to fire out of battery. Looking at a Arsenal SLR-106: The bolt appears to begin to unlock a little bit earlier than the SAR, however the spike on the carrier is even with the firing pin at that point. Basically the same as the SAR, the carrier blocks the firing pin if the bolt isn't locked. This looks like what is posted in the ARforum when someone has a kaboom from a defective round (case failure or overcharge) or a round fired after a squib. Since Arsenal made the rounds too, they are responsible either way. |
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Posted: 10/19/2007 6:09:54 AM EDT
[#17]
I totally agree with this post. Insaint and jose1: maybe Kurt_D is correct and it's bad Arsenal ammo instead of a bad Arsenal rifle. I still want to see an article from you guys on Arsenal's lack of quality control, though. |
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Posted: 10/20/2007 3:28:11 AM EDT
[#18]
They cannot possibly compare to the angry monkeys employed by Century that assemble the SAR's. |
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Posted: 10/20/2007 3:56:55 AM EDT
[#19]
Strange thread, especially considering the post counts of the (2) main contributors. I have an SLR 95 with thousands of rounds through it without a single stoppage.
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Posted: 10/20/2007 4:19:57 AM EDT
[#20]
Looks more like an ammo issue to me. My $.02
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Posted: 10/20/2007 9:55:48 AM EDT
[#21]
Due to the lack of the auto sear any AK can fire out of battery but shouldn't do more than place a small indentation on the primer unless bolt is locked- what happened in your case is excessive even by AK Kaboom standards seen. Over the years there have been about fifteen Kabooms I've seen across various boards- mostly due to excessive headspace and home built Kalashnikovs. Glad to hear you are OK.
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Posted: 10/22/2007 6:32:11 AM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 10/22/2007 10:04:36 AM EDT
[#23]
Jose1: can you take measurements of the full length of the bolt and the length of the bolt carrier tang?
(I've got some more people interested in this). Also: do you know what year the rifle was manufactured? Is the SLR95 still being made in Bulgaria? |
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Posted: 10/22/2007 11:07:31 AM EDT
[#24]
The rifle was made 2006 in Bulgaria (you can see the "quality sertificate", that comes with the rifle). The rifle is with me im my safe in my house in Bulgaria.
Today we simulate the problem with other SLR of my friend, using only cartrige with primer. The rifle fired with unlocked slide. I suspect that many SLR rifles have this problem. Later I will post the measurements that you want. |
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Posted: 10/22/2007 11:30:52 AM EDT
[#25]
Glad to hear everyone's OK. Tag.
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Posted: 10/22/2007 8:24:58 PM EDT
[#26]
In pics 2, 3, 4 did you check to make sure your bolt wasn't locked? I tried your experiment, my bolt is rotated into the locked position by the time the carrier is that far forward (spike even with bolt tail). I can see it locked throught the magwell. I tried to push it open with a cleaning rod down the barrel; no go, locked tight. If you can push it open with a cleaning rod at that point your rifle is out of spec. Like I said in my previous post, the carrier travels a good distance before the bolt even begins to unlock. I still think you're trying to pin it on the rifle when the ammo is the issue. My main concern is if you or someone else tries to use this ammo again (if in fact this is ammo related) but this time you all don't come out as lucky. Did you check you bore for a ring? Look down the barrel and see if you can see a ring anywhere down it. |
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Posted: 10/23/2007 6:02:36 AM EDT
[#27]
Kurt_D makes a good point. I'm not going to go so far as to say you're trying to pin it on the rifle when it's not.
I hand-cycled all my Arsenal rifles last night. Years ago this same subject came up and I performed the same test on a Maadi, a Chinese AK, and a couple of Romanian AK's. A "normal" AK has a bolt carrier tang that blocks the hammer from hitting the firing pin when the bolt is closed and has definitely started to rotate, although not all the way to the completely locked position. All of my Arsenals passed the test. Your photos are very good, but I'm wondering if you could perform the same test? Turn the rifle over to watch the bolt through the mag well. As you close the bolt, watch to see when it's closed and just starts to turn to the locked position (that is, it's beginning to lock but isn't locked all the way). Now look at the bolt carrier tang: is it blocking the hammer? If so, it's not the rifle, because that is normal from what I've observed with different AK's over the years. If the rear tang is NOT blocking the hammer just as the bolt starts to lock, then it definitely appears to be a defect in the rifle. (I'm also typing this so people who read this thread can perform the same test). 
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Posted: 10/23/2007 8:30:25 AM EDT
[#28]
First - Trotsky wins this weeks Idiot Prize.
Being concerned with the photo posted of an SLR95, showing a hammer in contact with a firing pin, bolt APPERENTLY unlocked - I attempted to duplicate the situation with TWO separate SLR95's. And I could INDEED duplicate that photo. SLR95 that APPEARS to show an unlocked Bolt....  ...and a closeup of the hammer in contact with the firing pin....  As it turns out? The two photos above DO NOT show what you may THINK they show. THE BOLT IS FULLY LOCKED IN BOTH PHOTOS. There is simply enough "give" in the carrier to allow it to slide back a bit while the bolt is FULLY LOCKED. Now for some CORRECT photos. Same two SLR95's, but this time, I INSERTED A CLYMER NO-GO GAUGE, ran the carrier fully forward, and allowed the hammer to come up to the carrier. SLR95 with an unlocked bolt, bolt held back from lock by insertion of a NoGo gauge:  ...and a closeup of the hammer OUT OF CONTACT with the firing pin...  In conclusion - the only way to DEFINITIVELY show a problem with the SLR95 carrier tang and hammer is to duplicate the minimal condition for an out of battery discharge. Insertion of a NoGo gauge should allow this, assuming the rifle normally passes GO and NOGO headspace checks. If that NOGO gauge isn't used? You can easily get the FALSE impression that there is a problem. |
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Posted: 10/23/2007 9:00:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Those are fantastic photos, Trotsky.
Insaint and jose1: what do you say? We are all very interested in this. Whether it's the rifle or the ammo Arsenal apparently has some liability in this, but people all over the gun boards are worried that their Arsenal AK's are defective, so please perform this test if you can.
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Posted: 10/23/2007 11:50:57 AM EDT
[#30]
Hi everyone, tomorrow I will dublicate this test, and I will post the pictures.
Looking at the Trotsky pics, I am thinking that maybe in the moment of the fatal shot, the bolt was locked, but there was too many space between the barrel and the bolt...( i mean defect workmanship). hinking.gif |
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Posted: 10/23/2007 12:25:40 PM EDT
[#31]
OK, but have you somehow ruled out the ammo as a possible cause? |
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Posted: 10/23/2007 12:58:07 PM EDT
[#32]
I don't know. But I believe, that the construction must handle overloaded bullets. In this case, ammo was made by ARSENAL Bulgaria (hunting soft point bullet 9,7gr).
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Posted: 10/23/2007 1:39:42 PM EDT
[#33]
Thanks jose1... it's important for ALL of us if there is an ammo problem. I'm still kicking myself for not having thought about potential carrier movement with a locked bolt. I should have thought of using a NoGo gauge sooner.
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Posted: 10/23/2007 1:58:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Oh, on doubt Arsenal is responsible one way or the other since they made both the rifle and the ammo. I would probably ditch the ammo (at least that lot) after your case is settled.
ETA: the gun actually did handle the overpressure round well, the bolt carrier isn't a permanent part af your face and you're ok for the most part. All the hot gas and metal went out the sides, top, and mag well. The receiver actually looks ok. The last stamped receiver AK I saw pics of after an overcharge had the trunion bulged. Add another plus for a milled receiver. Hate to admit it but I guess that's the good part (only one) of our sue happy society here in the US. I believe Arsenal Inc would have been quick to get the gun, test it, and if it was their fault, replace it asap. OR if it was ammo related, the ammo maker/importer would repair/replace it asap. (hell, they even have insurance for this type of thing) A $700 AK is a lot cheaper than a law suit, even if they did manage to win. I guess Arsenal Bulgaria hasn't figured that out yet. |
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Posted: 10/30/2007 12:03:01 PM EDT
[#35]
I would love to get my hands an this rifle.
A broken shell extractor, clean the firing pin in the bolt, a new top cover and check the headspace. I would only check the headspace, because I always do that to a new to me rifle. Then, I would head to the range. My sig file used to be, "Jurisprudence, the daughter of philosophy willing to compromise herself for profit." |
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Posted: 11/18/2007 12:37:10 PM EDT
[#36]
Folks, finally Arsenal replace my rifle and add some compensation. I returned the broken rifle in their storehouse and i am waiting for te explanation of the last kaboom-problem of thei experts.
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