I own two Para's, a P-14 & P-16.
Both are older guns, single action,blued finish.
No malfunctions out of either, bought both used off GB.
The P-14 is almost 100% stock, I added the WC beavertail.
The P-16 has a WC beavertail,hammer, and ambi-safety and aftermarket trigger & sights.
I know that SV/STI make very good guns, but they are double what a Para goes for.
Just wondering why there's alot of hostility towards them.

made in

Most US guns seem to be made in Brazil.

At least Canada is in NORTH america.

I met Todd Jarret once (as did hundreds of others - it was the NRA convention.)  He had his Para Ordnance 1911 with him and did demos.  It was nice and I wouldn't mind having one, but it occurs to me that if someone else sponsored him he'd do just as well with their 1911.

There's just never been any reason for me to say, "Man I just NEED that Para Ordnance!"  OTOH, I've said that about other 1911 manufacturers for various reasons.

Written on 1911forums before my permaban. I have FINALLY sold the pistol last week and I could not be happier to have severed ties completely with that shit company. The end result is you get a cast-framed pistol chock full of MIM parts. So metallurgical debates have shown that SOME of these arguments are meritless? Fine. The end result still is that they use the cheapest parts and processes to manufacture their guns and the savings passed on to customer is NILL. Maybe a cast frame, chock full of MIM and a plastic MSH isn't going to disintegrate within 300 rounds. But the question looms: WHY THE HELL WOULD ANYBODY BUY THAT CORNER-CUTTING HUNK OF... STEEL WHEN I CAN GET A NIB SERIES 70 REPRO FOR $100 MORE?!

and without further ado...

The following thread is written by a very dissatisfied customer who was fiercely loyal to Para Ordnance, its products, and its employees, and who was a proud member of the Para Owners of America Association. What I am about to say is neither flattering nor complimentary in regards to that company, but it is both my personal experience with this company… it is the truth. I feel that this thread has relevance because it addresses (from my experience) many issues people raise regarding Para products and their customer service department. It is my intent to relate these incidents to inform those who wish to enter the world of Para ownership at this present point in time, so they may have “some” of the complete picture. It is not my wish to make any member feel bad that they own or like Paras. Moreover, I have no qualms or argument with anybody who wishes to post a story about how they were treated wonderfully by customer service, or how reliable their pistol was/is.  

There are a host of 1911 manufacturers out there and as a consumer; I feel that we the consumers benefit from such a selection. It forces competition and (should) regulate quality. I was enamored with Para’s products and I have enjoyed them for many years. I have even used one of my Paras to defend my life against an armed robber. I had always been proud to own their products, and my (big) word of mouth gave them a few customers along the way. Unfortunately, It is my contention that Para is not nor has been the same company it has been years ago. Quality and customer service (from my isolated experience) have plummeted from rock-solid to deplorable. I hope that Para might take heed of this and return to (what I believe is) the way they “used” to do business, but I/we shall see.

How it began
After purchasing a 1445 LDA in 2001, I was sold on Para’s quality and design. The pistol ran rock solid without as much as a hiccup (although it was sent in one time for service because the metal was burring at the contact point where the slide notch meets the slide… YES, Para’s SS slides ARE too soft, more on that later). Para jumped in the single stack market in ‘02” I believe and I was among the first to embrace them as I proudly purchased what appeared to be the “Quintessential” carry piece of all time: The C7.45 SN, AKA the LDA Companion. LDA trigger pull (quality which I had experienced) “Officer” size, bobbed hammer, and night sights all promised much, and this weapon failed miserably. Stovepipe, FTF, FTE. I sent it in. “replaced the recoil spring, tightened the extractor” (blah blah). The weapon came back in worse shape. I sent it in again. Ditto, only this time the Para magazine floorplate exploded off the mag, in addition. George W came on the scene and mopped up well. We agreed on replacement and I sent it in.

I received #2 (the weapon I had to use to defend myself with) which seemed all right regarding the FTF/FTE. Unfortunately, the slide wouldn’t lock back in place with any consistency. George wanted to check the slide stop so he sent me another and that failed. I believe I sent it in and received the “tightened extractor, replaced recoil spring nonsense”… either way, I discovered the culprit. On one side of the frame, the slide stop hole was misdrilled on. There appeared to be two attempts at drilling the SS hole and they didn’t overlap precisely, leaving a “keyhole” on the frame. I spoke with George again, and sent in the pistol and replacement SS..

I received #3 and reliability problems began anew. I wasn’t sure if I had another lemon or if this was break-in, but that would have to wait because the MIM extractor snapped like a pretzel stick. I send the pistol in a 147th time and inform them about the reliability issue I experienced before the extractor. I receive the pistol with a brand new extractor and the (usual) assurance that everything is test fired and perfectly operable. Imagine my surprise when I discover the pistol is acting up. Cycling problems had improved (not disappeared) but like the pistol it replaced, the slide would not lock back. I call Canada again, get transferred over, and hear it’s probably magazine related. I try Wilson, Colt, Chip, Para, and Kimber, all with unpredictable results. I call Canada again, get a transfer to a smith and I explain the tragic history of this repair replacement misadventure, and he suggests I try replacing the slide stop. This is where the SHTF. I replace the SS with a Wilson Combat “Bulletproof” slide stop (which ironically is listed on their site as “a drop in part requiring no fitting in properly manufactured 1911 Autos”) and sure enough, the slide locks into place perfectly… for a while.

SHTF
I finally had a pistol that was broken in and seemed to work and everything went well for a bit as I began to train/practice with the weapon. Then I start having the slide problems all over again. The weapon acted up with certain mags but not others, and then it acted up with the "good ones" as well. It was completely unpredictable. I start noticing a burring on the contact point where the slide stop notch met the slide stop. It meant nothing to me because I had that same issue after shooting a few thousand rounds through my full size LDA. I sent the full size pistol in to Para and they de-burred it (I even received a return letter with the pistol stating this was completely normal and the smith found it added character to the weapon, or some such nonsense!). Well, a range employee had a brand new C7 and he let me swap tops for a few rounds. My frame + Wilson SS + his slide = Perfect function. Based on these findings, the experience I had with my 1445 and My C7 there was one simple conclusion: Para’s stainless steel slides were/are too soft.
I sent my Para in for repairs relaying the information, and I receive the pistol with a note stating that repairs were refused since I had used an aftermarket slide stop, upon which they blamed everything. Yes, the aftermarket SS, “a drop in part requiring no fitting in properly manufactured 1911 Autos” was the reason why the pistol experienced the burring at the SS notch and the resulting problems. Why there was burring at the notch of on my 1445 after a few thousand rounds with a FACTORY SS was not addressed, but I suppose the installation of the aftermarket SS on my C7 retroactively must have caused that as well. The fact that I had the IDENTICAL problem before one of their smiths suggested that I replace the SS was not addressed in the refusal either. After all that I had been through with Para, customer service had ground to a halt. The S had truly HTF so I returned to the last bastion of Customer Service Para had: George W.

… And it splatters

George returned my call and as personable as, ever he relayed the details. I had an aftermarket part in the weapon so warranty work was not guaranteed. I explained that my replacement of the SS was suggested by a smith when I called about the problem. As nicely as he could have humanly put it, he essentially called me a liar, since one of the smiths would never recommend I replace anything with aftermarket parts. Apparently, the fact that the smiths ask if I have tried other magazines, or that they recommend replacement recoil springs (not nec PARA replacement springs) in “X” pounds, etc could hardly corroborate the possibility that a smith might have suggested another drop in part (particularly in lieu of the fact that I was irate about shipping the pistol back and forth, and this “might” have been a quick fix).

We were at a standoff, and all we had left was my status as a loyal (and to this point, patient) customer v. what George and Para could/would do. George said his hands were tied, that it was a corporate decision that would have to be determined whether the cost of replacing a slide given the situation was worth their interests regarding their bottom line and/or my customer satisfaction. He said he would be willing to put in a good word for me and that was essentially that. Judging from the shoddy quality of the parts (extractor, slide(s), and ruptured magazine floorplate), I believe George was sincere about his limited power and the company’s stance, which clearly suggests Para has shifted more attention to the bottom line and thus has shifted it away from customer service (as well as QC).

The final chapter
Determined to get satisfaction, I called Canada for a call tag and RA #. I get a # to John Westerfield, in FL who I call and leave a message, then another, then another. Mr. Westerfield “graciously” returned my call a week later. I had emailed Para while waiting for this call and informed them #1 that this Westerfield’s not returning my calls, # 2  That they need to come up with either a directory on their site (or a toll free number) so I don’t have to waste $$$ calling Canada over and over, and #3 a RA and a call tag. Caroline responded with an RA and the words, “we don’t issue call tags… you pay to send, we pay to return.” I prepare the pistol for shipping and upon inspection, I notice a spot of rust on the bottom of the grip safety. I perform the cardinal sin of sliding down the MSH to get at the rust spot, and “Boom” the bits come clattering out. I tried to replace the parts, but not wanting to exacerbate the problem; I give up, put the parts in an envelope, and place that in the pistol case. My letter stated the reason why I sent the pistol in (slide issue) and I stated I would appreciate it if they would throw the parts back in for me. If they have any questions/concerns, call me at…  

I receive a call that they have my pistol ready, but they want $63 for labor and shipping. I call guess who, CANADA again (since my voicemail message directed me there) and I discover the service dept was on their lunch break. I relate my particulars and wait for a call back. 2 hours later I look up my caller ID and call the dept directly. I talk to David, who explains they de-burred the slide, but they were charging me $30 for re-installment of the parts that I caused to fall out, and $33 for return shipping. I explain I caused the parts to fall out and it is fair for me to pay $30 for a non-warranty issue that I caused , but I’d be damned if I am going to pay one penny to have the gun shipped to them AND pay to have it shipped back to me. He puts me on hold and the head smith comes on the phone. I explain what is fair and what isn’t and he transfers me over to the head of the department, Derek Brodka.


Derek: I am aware of the situation... you have a discrepancy with the payment?

Me: Yes. I was quoted $63 for the release of the pistol. Now your smiths had to work on the pistol for something I did outside of the warranty, so I don’t contest the $30 labor charge, but I am not going to pay $33 for shipping.

Derek: And why do you feel that you don’t owe us for shipping?

Me: I never once have had to pay shipping. Even when Para refused service to the pistol, it was sent back on their dime. I also have an Email from Caroline who states Para doesn’t issue call tags, so I pay shipping to you, and Para pays return shipping.

Derek: Well, Caroline is mistaken. This was not warranty work. You sent this pistol in for repair work. We charge return shipping for repairs.

Me: No, I sent the pistol in warranty work on the slide, which I stated in my letter. I stated in addition, that I would appreciate you putting the parts in for me that I caused to fall from the MSH, and I would have done it myself, but Para doesn’t post references on LDA reassembly.

Derek: Yes, and the pistol was refused service because you put in an aftermarket slide s-

Me: WHICH one of YOUR smiths instructed me to try.

Derek: None of our smiths would have told you to do that

Me: I don’t appreciate you calling me a liar, especially since you weren’t even present during the conversation.

Derek: Well, you sent the pistol in for repairs and Para does not pay for return shipping on that. In fact, you are even getting a price break on shipping. It normally costs more than that.

Me: I know exactly what it costs and do you know why? I have shipped this pistol to you over and over because Para can’t get this thing right. I don’t know whether it is because the smiths are incompetent, if it is because Para uses shoddy materials and workmanship from the beginning, or all of the above, but I know how much it costs to ship there, I also know that I have never had to pay to receive the pistol, and I’ll be damned if I have to spend one dime to pay for return shipping!

Derek: You have sent other pistols in before? [Apparently this guy is the resident expert on what his smith said to me 2 years ago, and all the aftermarket SS BS, but he has no clue about the nightmare(s) with the other pistols] What are the serial numbers on them then?

Me: [rummaging around on computer] DA 60XX That’s the full-sized LDA which had the exact same problem, only it was a FACTORY SS…. P1137XX, wait… that’s a return for the pistol you have there…. Here: P1132XX.

Derek: Yes, we replaced that pistol. [interesting…if he knows this, why the hell is he quizzing me on Serial #s then?!]  

Me: Yes, you replaced that pistol, and you replaced that replacement with the one before you. Through it all, I had to deal with Para’s inability to get it right the first time, the second time, the third time. I had to pay shipping on a gun that you claim you fixed only to discover that you didn’t/couldn’t fix it or have another problem pop up.

Derek: Well this was not a warranty issue, because there were signs the gun was disassembled, and we put the parts back in for you.

Me: Look, I gave you a contact number. If you felt the need to charge something (which given all the crap I had to put up with you shouldn’t even be charging for the MSH installation), or there is a warranty discrepancy you could have called me.

Derek: No you didn’t.

Me: Actually I did. I told you in my letter “feel free to call me with any questions or concerns at …” You could have easily called and informed me what was/wasn’t warranty, that you charge shipping when it is a warranty/non-warranty mix issue, and what you were going to charge for the repair work and shipping. Then I could have made the call and it would have been my funeral.

Derek: You did not write that in there that way!

Me: Questions or concerns! Do I need to write explicitly if there is a warranty/non-warranty, or if you are going to charge shipping (which I would never expect you to do) call first?!    

Derek: [pause] I will tell you what I am going to do… based on George’s notes here I will discount shipping, but I am only doing this based on customer service. I am putting a note here so you have a repair or warranty issue, it will go through me, and I will decide how it will be handle it myself.


Epilogue
So, this is how the story concludes. After thousands of dollars spent on Para pistols, magazines, parts, and accessories… after spending hundreds of dollars on shipping and unnecessary calls to Canada to get a pistol to run right, after years of customer loyalty and patience I am left with condescension, rudeness, and a pistol I have not, do not, nor will not believe in (despite the current assurance that it was test fired…). Moreover, I have the sour taste in my mouth regarding a company whose products and staff to which I was once fiercely dedicated. My beloved 1445 was stolen in the aftermath of Katrina and rather than replace that workhorse, I have since sold the magazines to some of our members. I might sell the “fixed” C7, or I might put it out to pasture within the recesses of my gun safe. Based upon the my experiences with these pistols described, and the results of those who worked upon them as well as some of those representatives who spoke with me,  I will neither support this company (given its current regime) with my business, nor will I trust my life to any of their products. I hope this thread serves to inform the consumer of ONE PART of the whole story regarding quality and customer service, and I hope it serves as a stern admonition to Para regarding their current and future customer service/business practices. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Para didn't do themselves any favors with their magazine design.  It's difficult to get them running consistently.  

Their parts are MIM, and don't even seem to be as solid as SA or Kimber's MIM, based on some of the forum posts I recall seeing over the past few years.

Added to that, their LDA is an answer looking for a problem, their external extractor is in that same boat, and they continue to produce wilder and wilder designs that no self-respecting 1911 fan would have anything to do with.  All at a higher and higher price.

If you want a fat-grip 1911, there's one way to go: STI/SV.  There are other, less proven, choices: Springfield makes their own Para clone, Caspian makes their own hi-cap design, then there are the polymer grip Kimbers, Wilsons, BULs, etc.  

Quoted: Para didn't do themselves any favors with their magazine design.  It's difficult to get them running consistently.   Their parts are MIM, and don't even seem to be as solid as SA or Kimber's MIM, based on some of the forum posts I recall seeing over the past few years. Added to that, their LDA is an answer looking for a problem, their external extractor is in that same boat, and they continue to produce wilder and wilder designs that no self-respecting 1911 fan would have anything to do with.  All at a higher and higher price.

This here is the heart of the matter. There are 87 companies manufacturing 1911s. Para set itself apart based on innovation. They fathered the staggered mag (for better or worse into 1911 mainstream culture). Say what you will... it was innovative. But where had they gone from there? Instead of perfecting the widebody design and catering to the niche market Para expanded with more "innovation", by developing the LDA series. The problem is that the design came 1-2 decades late, as by the millenium it was well established that 1911s were perfectly safe carried in condition one. Thus, the only market the LDA catered to was people too chickenshit to carry the real deal C&L, and a pinch of LEOs who wanted a 1911 and had to comply with DA regulations.

So you have the success of the widebody and the stalemate of the LDA. Eager to remain on the radar as the trailblazing innovators Para forged ahead with bold new designs... only they ran out of gas. Enter the PXT "power extractor" series. Worthless and useless. So Para tried substituting Innovation with gimmicks. They now abandoned classic design and made the gay XTREME NACHO roll marks, added the Eddie Murphy Gap-tooth serrations, and the alien rectal stimulator textured frontstrap. This is the feeble attempt to look modern and ahead of the pack.

Instead of doing the Widebody and doing it well, they have stagnated with these gimmicky pseudo innovations of theirs. Meanwhile, they found every cost-cutting measure in the book with respect to construction and pocketed the savings. This pistol line should have been the Taurus of 2003... MIM, Plastic, and Cast, nicely finished for $575-$650. Instead, they deliver smoke in mirrors and charge the same premiums that the higher end production companies charge with nothing to show for the cost. At $50-$100 difference in price, what fool wouldn't get the Mid-line SA or the Colt S70?

Don't be hatin'...

slides are cast as well, and I have heard of a few instances of Para slides cracking....

I've seen Paras act up in IDPA matches far to often for me to trust them.  It seems if any gun is going to choke and puke in our matches its going to be a 1911, and more often than not its a Para.

The only gun that failed i the Gunsite class I went to was a para.
Not a little problem, but a cracked slide stop that prevented further use.
And you need a para part since the frame width is not the same as a 1911.

I've only owned two- A P-18 9mm (gone now )
& I still have a P-13 which i plan on keeping
Never had any problem with either & whould buy another if the right deal came along-

Quoted: The only gun that failed i the Gunsite class I went to was a para. Not a little problem, but a cracked slide stop that prevented further use. And you need a para part since the frame width is not the same as a 1911.

That's incorrect.
Slide stop is the same, the trigger & magazine release are different.

Im surprised they still use MIM parts.4 years ago my buddy bought a P14 single action as those are no longer able to be sold here with the AGs new regualtions..long story short the slide stop broke in half..he called Para..they repalced it but told him it was an inferior made MIM part and they no longer use them...id probably have better luck with a $400 auto ordannce pistol..I wont be buying an LDA..I thought they were real nice and up this way theres not a lot of choices for a 1911...maybe Ill give the S&W 1911 a try at least those frames and slides are made by kimber.

Made in Canada. A country that hates handguns. End of discussion.

I could care less where it is made (with so many parts coming from Brazil, I don't see a problem with Canada...), or that it uses MIM parts (just about every modern autoloader on the market uses MIM parts, so get used to it); the fact they run like shit, on the other hand, I do care about.

Some poor guy up at the gun club had an embarrassing amount of FTFs with his Para, and he said this was after he sent it in for service. No thanks.

Had a slide sent in to then for warrenty work. Got a call  We don't see anything wrong.

There was no front sight and the rear sight was looser than a 3 dollar lot lizzard.

this was on there T J model.

IMO Para 1911s are an attempt to make a marginally functional 1911 with the widest profit margin possible.  Cheap parts, cut corners, etc.  I've never owned one, but have handled a few, and was underwhelmed by the fit, finish, and overall [lack of] quality.

I have an early P14 and it runs like a top. I had some minor tweaking done to it by a local smith, and I have never had a single issue with it. I have only put about 1000 rounds through it. It is good to go so far.

I've never had to deal with them direct, so I cannot comment on thier customer service.

Had their SSP single action, single stack 5" 1911.

fair trigger, fair accuracy, underside of slide was full of pores where the part wasn't cast correctly.

showed it to my FFL.  It went back for a refund.  

A $700+ pistol shouldn't be made of inferior metals.

Because of this, I've soured on just about anything cast.

The "MIM" debate makes my head hurt.  If you guys knew how many small and high tolerance parts were MIM, you'd be shocked at how many devices that you have around the house are full of MIM parts.

There is good min then there is bad min.  I dont buy a gun then spend 150 replacing all the min. I wait till the part brreaks or I want a different look to the pistol.

Quoted: The "MIM" debate makes my head hurt.  If you guys knew how many small and high tolerance parts were MIM, you'd be shocked at how many devices that you have around the house are full of MIM parts.

hell, I'm not an mim snob.  I just don't think frames and slides should be full of pores on a $700 pistol.  My Kimber is chock full of MIM parts, YET they saw fit to forge their slides and frames.  Caspian can cast frames and slides without issue.

the fact that Para Ordnance can't be bothered to get their frame and slide casting done correctly does worry me about their smaller parts.

Caspian slides are Barstock IRC. Frames are Cast via Rugers Pine Tree foundery.

Right. There is a common misconception that Caspian slides are cast. A quick look on their website proves otherwise.

Quoted: The "MIM" debate makes my head hurt.  If you guys knew how many small and high tolerance parts were MIM, you'd be shocked at how many devices that you have around the house are full of MIM parts.

The problem is when you put small MIM'ed parts into a 1911.  The metallurgy is the same in both big and small parts.  When the part is small, however, the imperfections in the casting process become bigger problems and make the part weaker.  I don't think the cast iron engine block in my old chevy will have the same weakness problems as a thumb safety on a Kimber.  

Take two Advil and call me in the morning.


Oh yeah, to the original topic... because Para Ordinances suck.

I have NO history with Para, but from what I read here, I wont be buying anything from them ANY time soon!

I like to research my pistol purchases, and one of the first things I look at is customer service.

If a company chooses to treat even 1 of their customers like that, I like to assume, with my luck, that they would treat me in the same manner.

I don't feel this way with all my purchases, but guns, I get kind of picky

"Made in Canada. A country that hates handguns. End of discussion."

Very enlightened and helpful response.

If I wanted a cast pistol, I'd buy Rock island or a Chuck Daly for half the price.

I didn't want a cast pistol.  I spent $450 and got an all forged springfield GI.
I'll replace the mim bits on the Springer as they wear.

If you want a cast pistol buy a ruger they know how to make a cast pistol.