Does anyone here have this piece of equipment? Looks like a well thought out (like most Velsyt products) design.  While it is indeed beau coup spendy, I'm wondering if anyone has experience with this.  I have seen some reviews complain about the 3/4" buckles on some of the pouches but that's a small gripe.  Looks like a great way to carry a different load out.  

Jungle Kit

Oh yea, agreed.  Most people who say  '3 row belt'  end up talking about a warbelt like the ATS one  (I actually have two of those, I used one as a warbelt and one as a LBE belt setup for awhile, using a TT X-harness from one of their MAV's)

The belt you have on top would work fine.  The one at the bottom with the extra material would be slightly better, especially the fabric along the bottom, which gives you a little more coverage for the bottom of pouches and especially for things like MALICE clips on the pouches.

Thai Royal Marines, wearing something akin to ALICE gear.

Off topic but this picture triggers my instructor OCD,

I'm stealing canteens and pulling boot laces.

LOL you noticed that too??

Also, I'm not sure this thread has a hard topic any longer, other than  'something something belt kit related somehow' - which is fine by me.  We have (exhaustively) answered the original question and expanded into many good branches of the original topic and been quite informative about the general subject of belt kit.

Ok, hive mind question.  So I finally have some Rhodesian Brushstroke fabric coming in, 500d Cordura stuff.  I got 3 yards as a sample, enough to make a full set of belt kit to sell with a little left over for me to play with.  


Should I do the belt kit British style with the 4 utility pouches?  Or 2 utility and a buttpack?

Back during WW I, both Brits and Germans made fabric "Breech Covers" to protect vulnerable actions of bolt action rifles from mud and crud.  These items didn't make it into general issue during WW II for various reasons.  Mostly Economics, I reckon.

With actions that are "partially" open to crud ingress, like most bolt action rifles, and the Mini-14/30, M1, and M-14/M1A, some sort of modern breech cover might be simple to make.

Such a "Breech Cover" would eliminate many issues concerning dust/mud objections about abovementioned rifles.  Maybe some folks would buy such.

Breech covers would ideally be designed to be "shot-away" at first shot, much like a plastic muzzle cap, but retained for future use, perhaps by some sort of tether.

Just a suggestion for a relatively niche product.

Ok.  So I finally sat down and took pictures of my MOLLE II buttpack mod to use it as a 'bum roll'  or  'poncho roll' on the top of the back of your belt kit.  

It's a simple mod, but how exactly you do it depends on what kind of rig you are using exactly.  

So the problem the guys testing these were running into is that if you put a MOLLE panel on top of your buttpack (or utility pouches) and tried to attach your poncho roll to the MOLLE webbing, it sat straight up and away from your back, and flopped around alot.  And was hard to remove.  Cinching down on the poncho roll with you webbing straps on top of the buttpack only did a little to help fix that problem - you really want to have it run up against your back, almost wedged into the corner between your back and your buttpack / utility pouches.  

I ran across the solution when I saw a picture of a modded British poncho roll while scrolling through gear pictures.

First off, here's a picture of the back of one of my belt kits.  You can see the buttpack and the two surplus utility pouches I use for water bottles.  





Here is the stock MOLLE II buttpack sitting on top of the buttpack that's on my belt kit.  This is roughly where you want the poncho roll to end up in the end.





So here was my solution.  



Basically, I sewed a small loop of webbing on the back of the buttpack.  You can just run your bungies through the webbing loop that's already on there if you want.  Then I threaded shock cord through the loop and then through a fastex buckle.  You then attach the other end of the buckle to one of your D-rings on your belt loop.  Or you can run it around the waist and tie it into Diz's tranny strap buckle.  Right now I don't have it attached to anything, I'm working on a new, completely sewn down belt for myself and will be swapping it over.  But you can see where the buckle would tie into the D-rings that go to the utility pouches.  

You don't have to make it this complicated, but the buckle allows you to quickly attach and detach it.  And the bungies let's the pouch move with you.  

And it really helps if you strap down the top buttpack straps on top of that.

I have a question and it may have been answered. When did the British go with system that they now have and do any other countries use a similar system.

Ok.  So the British's newest system technically isn't a set of belt kit - it's a modernish plate carrier based system.  However.  That is only being issued currently to special units like the airborne, etc.  as it's expensive.  The rest of the units are being issued the older Osprey system, which, while technically not belt kit, does have a belt kit option in it.  

This gets even more muddied when you factor in that cadet units issue the older belt kit, and soldiers in regular and specialty units are allowed to purchase their own belt kits to wear in their units.

The British started issuing the PLCE belt kit back in 1985, and it's still in use today in Britain.  This is the oldschool, non-padded belt belt kit setup, and is the beginning of the core concepts we are talking about in this thread.  The pouches and harness are basically the same as we are talking about, it's just missing the padded belt that the pouches are mounted / sewn on.  At least a half different countries, including the Danish, just straight up copied the system.  Other countries use, either officially or in widespread use, similar setups.  Australia for example.

Ok, got time to sit down and take pictures of another quick and easy mod you can do to surplus parts for the belt kit setup.

So the picture below is a stock surplus Danish PLCE harness.  This mod will work with the British ones too, along with a few other surplus ones.

So two basic mods. The first is the sternum strap.  (All of the parts used here are available at rockywoods.com btw.  The parts all together will cost you around $10 if you do both mods)

Sternum strap.  So there are sternum strap adapters you can get, they fit 1" webbing.  The main adapter piece is super simple and slides onto the webbing.  In the mod in the picture, I have added 3/4" webbing and a 3/4" buckle.  You can do this with 1" webbing and buckles too, but they are a bit big for a sternum strap, and weight more.  The sternum buckle is swapable, so you can put it on either side you like.  If you do the 8 point mod, you can (and might want to) put it on the other set of straps, depending on your setup it might be more comfortable.

This is easy enough to do, and requires two stitches, one on each side of the strap.  Make sure you roll webbing ends inwards to stop unraveling over time.  Since 3/4" webbing comes in 1 yard lengths, you will need 1 yard for this.  But in reality, you will only need about half of that.  The stitching can be done on a domestic machine or even by hand.  If using a machine, just run 3+ stitch lines over eachother using a good bonded nylon or even an 'outdoor poly' thread if you don't have access to the nice nylon stuff.  This isn't a heavy load bearing stitch.  If doing it by hand, you might want to make 2 stitch lines side by side.

Ok, mod #2.  Converting the harness to an 8 point harness.  Now, you will be better off popping the stitching on the buckle on the end of the shoulder straps on the harness and sewing the 2 extra straps directly to the end of the harness, at a slight angle compared to the two on there already - that's not a horribly hard job.  And if you end up liking this mod, you can always go back and easily do that.  This mod is designed to be a quick and reversible mod to let you see if you like the 8 point harness idea.  Depending on your load, it sometimes works better having those extra straps.  

This mod is super simple.  Take two pieces of 1" webbing - they don't need to be as long as the stock ones.  Loop the webbing through the buckle on the end of the shoulder straps, as shown.  Not in the picture are 4 x 1" triglides.  I have one on each of the 4 front straps.  Instead of running the stock webbing piece through the D ring on your pouch then up to the buckle that is now being used for the 2 new straps, you are going to run the ends of those straps through the triglides to lock them into place.  (be sure to tape the ends to the webbing after you have the belt kit fit correctly)

The 2 new webbing straps have a tendency to jiggle out of those buckles.  You can temporarily stop this by using tape, but if you like this mod and want to keep using it, then run a simple line of stitching where the red lines are drawn on the picture.  (folding the ends of the webbing under, again, to stop unraveling).  And, again, this stitch isn't a load bearing stitch.  It's just used to stop the webbing from backing out of the buckle, so you can easily do this by hand if you have to.  

Like I mentioned before, if you really like the 8 point harness, you can pull the buckle off the ends of the shoulder harness and permanently stitch those webbing straps to the harness.

Let me know if anyone has any questions.  If anyone doesn't want to go to the trouble of doing this for themselves, I have some extra harnesses and hardware and can do them for you, but seriously, these are the easiest mods ever.  Though you might be cheaper getting a harness from me than paying for the shipping for a new harness and parts separately.  

@Diz

Dropped you an email with another question. Thanks.

Right on been jammed up with other projects, will answer up ASAP.

For simple "trial" purposes, simply back-thread the short end of the strap webbing back through the buckle already present on the harness.  If the added strap works for you, then sew it.  I hate tape.

With that buckle, back-threading it through doesn't work all that well.  If you are careful, you can test it without even backthreading it or tape.  Though one wrap of tape should stop it from slipping out - it only tends to slip out of that buckle when the buckle bends away from the webbing.  

But yea.  Same idea.

I like the fact that this mod is cheap and reversible, because not everyone is going to like or need an 8 point harness.

This thread went way off the rails so apologies if I missed it, has anyone tried the DZ Rig with AICS mags?

You didn't miss it, no one's mentioned it yet.

They look roughly similar to P-mags in 7.62, which I did trial fit.  2 x 25-rd 7.62 NATO (P-mag) fit in the 3 x 5.56 NATO (P-mag) pouch (std with rig), and I'm making a new pouch that will fit 2 x 20-rd 7.62 NATO (P-mag) and other stuff (IFAK, smoke, frags, etc.).  Maybe we could add a horizontal doubler in there for shorter mags to double-stack.  Drop a line to the site and request it.  The more guys that ask, the more they pay attention to you.  

Also working a co-lab with John@UWGear to make a chest panel that will toggle into the harness up front.  Probably a 6-slot molle base, which you could then run the shorter 10-rd mag pouches on.  That just makes more sense to me.  I did something similar for a guy (Tx-Zen) with an AK "DMR" rifle with 10-rd mags.  Those are just made for a chest rig.  

And for Raf's M-1.  

Good idea.  

*getting LRRP vibes*

Need some more info/pics on those SVD mags you made for @Tx-Zen

I have a few myself

Attached File

I hate you.  I really do.  

Your post reminded me how much I hate myself for selling my Dragunovs.  

Hit me up if you're ever up in the Northern VA area, we can go shoot the hell out of them.

Back on topic, I like the idea of a lighweight belt kit set up for SVD and pistol mags. I have a couple Russian chest rigs along with a Beez Combat Systems chest rig, but the belt kit idea is now strong with me

Will do, I even have a case of 7.62x54R still sitting around.  Though I doubt I'll go that far into yankee territory.  

And yea, you should totally get a set.  Makes more sense for a guy laying out on the ground to wear belt kit than a chest rig.  

Figure out how to add a couple mag pouches towards the rear - maybe on the sides of the buttpack or utility pouches, depending on which you want to run.  Get whoever you get to make the rig for you to add them.

When we get into the DMR territory, you start to get into different rates of fire, and what the load out needs to look like, as compared to the regular "rifleman".  And how that might affect your mag pouches.  

And, when you have unique mags, which are difficult to replace, you need to have some way of reloading with retention.  So you might remove a canteen or whatever from one pouch, in order to have a dumper for empties.  Of course the vertical zip pockets on your smock still work, not to mention the cargo pockets on your trou.

Maybe see if Tx-Zen is still in the house?

Need to add some kind of dump pouch addition option to the next gen Diz Rig.  Figure out how to attach one that's already being made, or make one to sell as an accessory, etc.

Roll up one designed to attach somehow under the left or right canteen pouches would be great maybe?

This is a good concept for a dump pouch.  I mounted it behind one of the mag pouches.

I know the Chinese didn't come up with the idea, but I couldn't find an American made one.  I did find just
the drop panel, you use your own pouch, but it was expensive and had a 3 month lead time.

Can't remember the name off-hand, but that's a direct ripoff of another US pouch.

I added a roll up dump pouch to the left side of the leftmost sustainment/canteen pouch on my rig. When unrolled it’s between the canteen pouch and the ammo pouch. Not as easy to use as a dedicated dump pouch with a reinforced mouth to stay open, but it’s better than stuffing shit in your cargo pockets.

Here’s one

And another

I think the JayJays belts come with d rings at the bottom below the ammo pouches to attach simple dump pouches that roll up.
Like these.

UW Gear / Diz / John knocked this one out of the park, and I've gotten a ton of miles out of it over the years. Contruction is super sturdy and it's held up really well

I already had an original Chamelion SVD rig to use as the model for what I wanted my custom rig to be, and I had lucked into some SURPAT Cordura material here in the US also. In my AO SURPAT and Russian EMR work really well, usually better than multicam, so I wanted a green based color scheme instead of tan. It's just too green here for multicam most of the year

The top rig is also UW, Diz also made me a version of their excellent Minute Man 3 AK rig, because I had extra SURPAT I had one of those made too. I've used it in classes and drills quite a bit. The AK rig has also been rock solid and I'm extremely happy with it too

The two middle extra pouches on the SVD rig are SRVV single mag pouches, so I can roll with a total of 12 mags for the SVD. Kinda hard to reload when prone from those two, but I use them as admin mag pouches when travelling to and from hunting or training classes. 10 mags plus 1 in the rifle, and one spare, makes those two pouches pretty useful when travelling


UW on the left in SURPAT, and Russian EMR / Digiflora on the right





I've said this a zillion times over the years, but the UW kit Diz made for me are still the best quality rigs I've handled, and I am still extremely happy with them

@towerofpower94

Thanks again Diz. I don't hunt as often as I used to, but I still get miles out of the SVD rig in particular. It's still my favorite SVD accessory

Until I started wearing plates regularly, I used my old LBE in particular for the SVD loadout. Dump pouch is on the right which worked best in the prone if I added a little head-down half-roll behind concealment or cover. If I were in a defensive position shooting from prone I'd usually drop the mag next to the rifle, and would already have 2 or 4 staged on the ground for quickest reload


I don't use the SVD with plates much at all, and typically when I'm hunting I'll be in a mule, and probably won't fire more than 3 rounds in the heat of the moment anyhow because I'm not a spray and pray pig hunter, so I don't use the LBE as much as I did before Covid, which is about the time I shifted from my 90s cold war no armor training to the modern plate methods that are much smarter now

Yea, I keep eying his chest rigs.  I have told myself that I should get one to replace my TT MAV's.  

Those SVD rigs look nice.

Thank you. I remember when you got that chest rig made. It was at that time that I got my BCS SVD a chest rig since I didn’t know about UW or Diz.

@Diz are you still making SVD chest rigs? Also, how would you do the SVD mag pouches on a belt kit setup? 4 x 2 mag pouches like we do for the 4 x 3 STANAG mag pouches with two pouches on each side, or would their shorter height allow for them to be doubled up vertically, for 4 x 2 mag pouches on one side? I’d figure a DMR shooter with an SVD would definitely want a sidearm. I believe the Russian SVD shooters in Afghanistan carried Stechkin machine pistols or even an AKS74U with a few mags along with the SVD due to the 10rd mag capacity and long OAL of the rifle.

ETA: or could this comment you made earlier about the .308 PMAGs apply?

Maybe we could add a horizontal doubler in there for shorter mags to double-stack.

Way cool, lookin' good Tx-Zen.  Always nice to see some of our old work holding up well.  I always like that roosian rig; good layout.

Flatline Fiber Co makes one, I have one on my chest rig and love it.

https://flatlinefiberco.com/product/the-mini-dump-pouch/

I dug around in my parts bin(s) and remembered I had these belt mount SVD pouches. They hold 2 mags per cell with internal divider, and were made by SSO/SPOSN so you know they are top notch. Bonus grenade pouches too
@towerofpower94 This is what you need
@Diz if you can take on custom work for Tower, I'd be happy to loan you one of these to copy





I have a few more photos of these if you scroll down on my NDM86 page

Thank you for the pics. I had planned to see how two SVD mags sitting on top of a 20rd and 25rd .308 PMAG compared, but life got in the way yesterday.

If you could double up the SVD mags, both up and out, in a belt pouch sized to hold 2 x 25rd 308 PMAGs, you could get 8 mags on each side of your body, or have 8 on the left and decide to go with a pistol and another 4 on the right, or just do SVD mags on the left and leave the right for your sidearm or carbine mags.

I went with the 6-mag version of the BCS SVD chest rig and added a single STANAG HSGI Taco pouch on each side for 30rd AK74 mags. Figured if I used an AKS74U along with the SVD, as Marko V. and others have mentioned was done by the Russians, you'd have 7 SVD mags and 3 AK74 mags on you if you include the mags in the guns.

Hard to believe Diz made that rig in 2011, because I used it in 2012 at Vorobiev's class. You could certainly accuse me of LARPing, but gotdamn...the Gorka mountain suit is perfectly designed for cold weather field work




Vorobiev said they used to carry Stechkins whenever they could because even the DMR guys in the Spetz squads would have to kick in doors. When I was a tank commander I also had to do room clearing training with an M16a2 and that suuuuuucked. It can only be worse with the SVD

Little off topic, but seeing as smocks and whatnot have been mentioned previously, what makes the gorka so well-suited to winter warfare? Best I can find is that it’s a heavy cotton canvas outer shell with some reinforcement panels and camouflage sections.

That's basically it. It blocks wind, traps warmth, is generously cut so as not to restrict movement, and it's durable.

It's not the latest and greatest in tech, but they work.

I tell you what, guys, my plate is pretty full right now, but I'd like to take a look at this.  I just like the DMR concept in general, and the shorter mags involved, so it follows we might need some custom mag pouches.  

I could see a front and back stack, and maybe even a top and bottom one, with top and bottom flaps like some frag pouches.  So yeah Tx-Zen is right on it; 4 mags per pouch, 2 x 4-mag pouches for a total of 8.  Or we could do single pouches for the chest rig.  

I see nothing wrong with wearing any kit you want, regardless of what the bro-vets think.  And I haven't heard of Russian vets crying because someone was wearing their kit.  Hell, they would probably sell it to you.

Oh and hell yeah, I love the Gorkas.  The Slavic interpretation of the windproof smock (and trou).  Sectional camo like that is actually very effective in breaking up your outline, believe it or not.

Defer to Diz on whether or not it's doable, or even a good idea, but I'm envisioning a double stacked version of the divided pouches you made for Tx-Zen's chest rig, but MOLLE mountable. Now that I say it out loud, having all four mags in a pouch with a single top wouldn't be good, as you'd need to have dividers to keep the noise down, and that would make digging out the bottom mags difficult.

Hell, the original canvas SVD mag/cleaning kit holders did the top/bottom mag thing with independent pouch lids for the bottom two and a single flap over the top two and the cleaning kit/map case area in the back. If you made the border strong enough to not flop over when the top pouches are empty, you could easily have four independent flaps, each over a double mag pouch with a divider. ETA: and use the tuck tabs you have on the Diz Rig pouches. That would save you the pain of the snaps or velcro and give you a more silent opening option.

Attached File

Oh, that's your page?  I've been there before.  Your page made me finally pull the trigger on a gorka suit years ago.

Pretty much this.  They are super comfortable (especially the pants) and just work.  The basic concept has been around for a long time - you can see it in the WW2 german camo smocks and it's other roots in traditional european climbing smocks.  

It's the Russian version of the British smocks.  But they have dedicated pants.

It's actually on my list to do up some patterns to make a US made British style smock and a pull-over smock - I'm wanting to do a 'partizan' style summer smock, and a Gorka style smock.  I figure it wouldn't be hard to do a button-up version for the Gorka one too.  Probably do some pants too when I get around to doing the winter ones.  I've actually got a line on a source for some ventile like fabric in camo patterns.....whenever I get a full production sewing shop up and running, I'll look into doing some serious runs of this kind of stuff if people are actually interested.  Maybe some gorkas with M81 camo sections......

One thing they do really well is allow you to layer up.  The Russians generally don't have the latest and greatest of modern winter layers, like we do in the west.  Alot of these modern layers are a bit fragile - the Gorka is the opposite of that.  If you look at your gear with the concept of  'well, if I ever really have to use this stuff in a serious manner, odds are that the gear I have might be the only gear I get for a long time.  Maybe I should have some durable winter gear that will last me for years.'

I wish they were still available to get decent ones easily.  I'd like to add a few more sets to my two.

Interesting to see ancient USGI metal LTD (Lift-The-Dot) pouch closure devices used in some "modern" gear.

LTD Metal devices used from WWI to recently in US gear.  Easy to open, but a bit of a fuss to re-fasten; mostly used on GI cartridge belts where closing the fastener was not usually expected.  Note that later VietWar canteen pouches (frequently opened and closed) used simple snap fasteners in lieu of LTD fasteners previously used in US gear.  Maybe a simple matter of manufacturing economics.

Ok, so I got my first run of molle buttpacks done, got some decent pictures of them.  Did a run of 8 of them, 5 in woodland 3 in coyote.  3 of the woodland are already gone, along with one of the coyote.  I'll be putting the rest up for sale on the EE later tonight probably.  

Trying to figure out if I should keep the structured lid or go with a simple flat lid like regular buttpacks.  Pros and cons - these structured ones are so labor intense in comparison, I don't know if it's worth it or not.  Thoughts?















(One of my hens approves)

Crap, I just realized I missed 3 of the threads to trim while looking at those pictures.

Also - what's the best way to get the chalk markings off of the fabric?  If I use a rag that's damp, it just kinda rubs it everywhere.  If I use a paper napkin that's damp, it leaves paper residue everywhere.  I can get it clean if the rag is WET, but then the fabric gets wet and I don't want to do that to ones I'm selling.

If I was looking to buy a butt pack and had a choice, I would get the structured lid one.
Even if it was a few dollars more.

Structured would be my choice too.  Marnsdorff please PM me what a Structured lid multicam one would cost if you ever decide to do one.

That's what I was thinking.  This lid is pretty nice.  I added the extra length on the front when I had two different requests for it from guys who were testing my prototype, they were wanting to stick stuff under the lid and still have it come down all the way.