Magpul PDR - AR15.COM

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Magpul PDR (Page 1 of 3)

Posted: 5/18/2007 7:23:53 PM EDT

defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1011

by David Crane
[email protected]

All photographic images contained in this article were taken by DefenseReview.com, and they are the exclusive property of DefenseReview.com. DefenseReview.com owns the copyright on these photos. All photos were shot with a 7.2-megapixel Sony Cyber-shot digital camera (Model #: DSC-P150).

May 17, 2007

DefenseReview.com Exclusive: First Look at the MagPul PDR 5.56 PDW Concept!

Back in February, DefenseReview published a short blurb on an interesting new tactical small arm that MagPul Military Industries Corp. (a.k.a. MagPul Industries Corp.) is developing. Since we were sworn to secrecy by the folks at MagPul, we couldn't tell our readers anything about it other than that we had seen it. That article caused a lot of speculation on various firearms-related forum sites/boards. Some speculated that we were referring to the TDI KRISS Super-V XSMG .45 ACP submachine gun that MagPul Design Group helped develop (you know who you are). We weren't.

Anybody who's read Defense Review in the last few months would have known that we had already covered the latest developmental version of the KRISS Super-V XSMG subgun after we saw and handled it at SHOT Show 2007. In fact, a simple search for the KRISS (using the search box at the top of this site) would have answered that question. In other words, those folks (speculators) should have known better--or at least done their homework. One of our jobs here at DefRev is to...

know about (and report on, of course) the "latest and greatest" advanced tactical weapons, equipment, gear, training, etc. before you (or they) do. That's just one of the many things we do, here. Now, we don't always have time to report about it right away (as soon as we find out about it), nor do we always have permission to write about it right away. We often have to sit on information that we receive do to its confidential nature and often by specific request by manufacturers that we not write about it. This new, "secret" MagPul weapon is one of those situations.

Well, while we were at the recent 2007 NDIA Joint Services Small Arms Systems Annual Symposium, Exhibition & Firing Demonstration, a.k.a. NDIA Small Arms Symposium 2007, MagPul CEO Rich Fitzpatrick and the gang cleared us to photograph and publish information on the new weapon.

So, here it is, and it's a DefenseReview.com exlusive--you're reading it here, first, folks:

MagPul is currently in the process of developing a 5.56x45mm NATO/.223 Rem. NATO (5.56mm NATO) bullpup PDW (Personal Defense Weapon)-sized subcarbine/SBR (Short Barreled Rifle) called the "PDR", which stands for "Personal Defense Rifle". The MagPul PDR(TM) is approximately the same size as an FN P90 PDW, yet surprisingly lighter in weight, without resorting to a proprietary sub-5.56mm PDW caliber like the 5.7x28mm cartridge developed by FNH (FN Herstal) for the P90 PDW or 4.6x30mm cartridge developed by Heckler and Koch (HK) for the MP7A1 PDW.

In fact, that's the whole idea behind the MagPul Personal Defense Rifle (PDR)--give the warfighter a lightweight 5.56mm NATO weapon in a compact PDW-sized package. Since it doesn't require special ammo (i.e. a proprietary cartridge), there are no ammo supply and procurement difficulties, other than the occasional shortfalls of 5.56mm NATO ammo supply, due to inadequate U.S. ammo production capability in the face of an ongoing war (Iraq and Afghanistan).

DefenseReview got to view and handle (and photograph) a MagPul PDR (TM) non-functional prototype mockup at the MagPul booth at NDIA Small Arms Symposium 2007. The version we handled utilized a P90-like receiver (with regard to physical appearance), except the PDR will utilize box magazines. In fact, Drake Clark, MagPul's PR officer, has informed me that the PDR will be able to utilize standard 20 and 30-round NATO 4179 STANAG USGI AR-15/M16 box mags as well. Mr. Clark also showed Defense Review a prototype molding for a different configuration that incorporates a more conventional (and U.S. military-preferred) vertical foregrip. DefenseReview prefers this vertical foregrip setup/config. It's an interesting concept, and we look forward to seeing how the functional PDR prototype performs.

The PDR (TM) is slated to incorporate polygonal rifling, which increases bullet velocity over traditional rifling by creating a better gas seal around/behind the bullet, and allowing less gas to escape around the bullet as the round is fired. Heckler & Koch (HK) and Glock have helped to make this type of rifling popular and prove the concept.

Defense Review is particularly interested to find out how controllable the weapon is in full-auto. Since th PDR has a projected weight of 3-4 lbs (approx.), full-auto controllability is likely to be an issue unless some kind of recoil attenuation/mitigation system is utilized. The MagPul team might also consider some type of mechanical or hydraulic rate reduction system to reduce the weapon's cyclic rate/rate of fire (ROF) to the 500-650 rpm range, if the PDR's natural cyclic rate is higher (unknown). A recoil mitigation system, combined with a cyclic rate reducer, should do the trick, provided that doesn't increase the weapons overall weight by too much or reduce the weapon's reliability or durability.

For the recoil mitigation system a.k.a. recoil attenuation system, DefenseReview would recommend that the MagPul PDR development team contact legendary infantry small arms designer Jim Sullivan (L. James Sullivan) of Arm West, LLC. Mr. Sullivan is the master of recoil attenuation/mitigation a.k.a. "recoil reduction" in lightweight small arms (specifically, lightweight, man-portable machine guns). There is simply no one better.

Mr. Sullivan designed and developed the Ultimax 100 5.56 LMG/SAW (Light Machine Gun/Squad Automatic Weapon), which is the lightest and best 5.56mm NATO LMG/SAW in the world, today, and has been ever since it's initial introduction (in 1982, if I'm correct). That's right, the Ultimax, which proved that a lightweight machine gun could outhit a significantly heavier machine gun (in the same caliber) on full-auto, is approx. 25 years old, and it will "house" (i.e. significantly outperform) the FN M249 SAW in pretty much every infantry combat-relevant area, including reliability and durability in adverse conditions under high round count, controllability on full-auto, reloading speed, weight, etc. Development actually began on the Ultimax 100 in 1978.

For the cyclic rate reduction system, MagPul might want to take a look at the FERFRANS Specialties rate reduction system, which they developed for their SOAR (Special Operations Assault Rifle) AR-type subcarbines/SBRs (Short Barreled Rifles). It's possible it can be utilized or adapted for the MagPul PDR (unkown at present).

In any case, the MagPul PDR is indeed interesting, and we look forward to running one at the range when/if it's introduced.

Projected MagPul PDR (TM) Weapon Specs (from MagPul company document):

"Purpose:

Compact Personal Defense Weapon for use in vehicle cabs and tight spaces. Will serve as single-solution replacement for standard issue M9 (pistol) and M4 (carbine) weapons.

General:

- Barrel: 10.5 & 12.5" polygonal rifling
- OAL: 18-20"
- Weight: 3-4 lbs
- Caliber: 5.56x45mm NATO/.223 Rem. (5.56mm NATO). Weapon can be refitted with 6mm, 6.5mm (i.e. 6.5 Grendel, 6.5 MPC, etc.), 6.8 SPC (6.8x43mm SPC), etc.
- Std. Mag: USGI 15-20-round custom polymer box mag
- Effective Range: 300 yds with 12.5" barrel

Construction:

- Polymer where possible (for min. weight and temp)
- Cantilever barrel - integrated front trunnion & optic rail - Overhung carrier w/rotating bolt (8 lug)
- Semi and select-fire option
- Piston op system [gas piston/op rod-driven system] w/ separate carrier/rod

Key User Interfaces:

- Optics rail 0.5-.0.6" above cheekweld
- Ambi everything--selector, bolt catch, mag release, etc.
- M16-style selector, bolt catch, mag release
- Additional bolt catch in trigger well
- Mini telescoping stock
- Kevlar ejection port shield/cheekweld
- Left-right convertible
- Ultralight for max portability
- Additional mag release at mag well
- Removable VFG
- Integrated Power System
- Krink or similar brake for reduced muzzle Db [a.k.a. reduced noise signature] to tolerable level w/o ears [i.e. hearing protection]

Integrated Power System (IPS):

- Battery pack in grip powers internal wiring harness
- Integrated recepticle accomodates lamp head, laser, etc.
- Integrated power switch in grip installs with power unit"

Company Contact Info:

Mailing Address:

MagPul Industries Corp.
PO Box 17697
Longmont, Colorado 80308-0697

Shipping Address:

MagPul Industries Corp
400 Young Court - Unit 1
Erie, Colorado 80516-8440

Phone:

877-4MAGPUL Toll Free 303-828-3460 Office 303-828-3469 Fax

[email protected] Email

Military Cage Code: 1LX50

This was defiantly the other shot show prototype that was not shown due to damage from shipping.

Posted: 5/18/2007 7:30:16 PM EDT

[#1]

I must have one

Posted: 5/18/2007 7:34:01 PM EDT

[#2]

one more

Posted: 5/18/2007 7:39:05 PM EDT

[#3]

tag

Posted: 5/18/2007 8:07:56 PM EDT

[#4]

Ah forget all the military torture tests.

No dropping from buildings neccessary. No burying it in sand and mud, running it over with tanks and using it for a club.

If it can't handle UPS,..............than what good is it?

Posted: 5/19/2007 4:48:27 AM EDT

[#5]

tag

Posted: 5/19/2007 5:50:09 AM EDT

[#6]

OH SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Magpul, I dont understand....dont you like me??? are you trying to get me divorced??? LOL :) well this just went on the must have list

reminds me of a Tavor 2 hmmmm masada, and something that looks like a tavor....lol :)

Posted: 5/19/2007 5:52:02 AM EDT

[#7]

Damn!! an SBR I would spring for in a heartbeat!!!

Posted: 5/19/2007 5:56:41 AM EDT

[#8]

As always.... Price?!

Posted: 5/19/2007 8:11:33 AM EDT

[#9]

I like the lower in the bottom pic better than the FN P90 style front grip...........and yes, how much?

Posted: 5/19/2007 8:50:30 AM EDT

[#10]

I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of wallets suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

Posted: 5/19/2007 8:58:08 AM EDT

[#11]

I like it!

Posted: 5/19/2007 9:18:01 AM EDT

[#12]

You can definitely sign me up for one.

Brought to real life.

Posted: 5/19/2007 3:08:02 PM EDT

[#13]

That sound you hear is all next-gen game designers firing up their 3D programs to incorporate the design in their next shooter

Posted: 5/19/2007 4:01:23 PM EDT

[#14]

WOW....I mean like WOW....WOW.

I'll say this it looks gorgeous. If it fires half as good as it looks that will be one hell of a firearm.

Looks like MAGPUL is going to be making a lot of money next year.

EDIT: The trick will be the velocity with the short 10.5" barrel using the 5.56 round and the recoil from the firearm.

I like the P-90 style integrated foregrip.

Also unlike the P-90 the mag will not have 50 rounds.

Also I hope its not a flame thrower and the flash suppressor works well.

Oh yeah, and how would you attach a suppressor to that puppy?

Still...very AWESOME rifle thats looks like it will be a serious winner.

Posted: 5/19/2007 5:59:39 PM EDT

[#15]

Would be nice in 6x35mm.

Posted: 5/19/2007 7:10:44 PM EDT

[#16]

Haha...how long before HK or someone else tries to steal the MAGPUL guys working there?

Seriously, if they can pull off the Masada and the PDR they could kick some butt in government trials.

Posted: 5/19/2007 9:15:09 PM EDT

[#17]

For real............that PDR would be the cat's ass for pilots and other troops who need a compact weapon..........and I need one as well!!

Quoted:
Haha...how long before HK or someone else tries to steal the MAGPUL guys working there?

Seriously, if they can pull off the Masada and the PDR they could kick some butt in government trials.

Posted: 5/19/2007 9:18:43 PM EDT

[#18]

Similar in concept to the Gwinn arm gun.

Posted: 5/19/2007 9:27:21 PM EDT

[#19]

So we'll see this in what, about 5 years?

Posted: 5/20/2007 2:59:26 AM EDT

[#20]

MAGPUL, in case you see this post, all I have to say is forget the Masada and build the PDW instead

Posted: 5/20/2007 3:02:01 AM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:
MAGPUL, in case you see this post, all I have to say is forget the Masada and build the PDW instead

No no no.. Finish the MASADA first.. LOL, I'm waiting for it.

Posted: 5/20/2007 4:09:34 AM EDT

[#22]

As soon as this is marketed, trench coats will be BANNED!

Posted: 5/20/2007 4:53:42 AM EDT

[#23]

Well I know for a fact that the Marines have tested a large sample of HK MP7s for adoption as a PDW to replace pistols and M4 rifles currently issued to support personel.

The Secret Service is using P-90s in both White House Security Protection and Personal Protection of the President.

I would like to see an American company not just a company with an American plant be the one making these sales.

Posted: 5/20/2007 6:35:38 AM EDT

[#24]

Will it accept an RDIAS?

I no what have I done!

Posted: 5/21/2007 3:27:44 AM EDT

[#25]

Hope it comes to fruition, the Pmag 20 is likley to follow. I can't get over how compact it is, I guess the one pictured is the 10.5" barrel version. A 16" would look look funny unless they extended the housing up 4" or so, but SBR is always an option.

Posted: 5/21/2007 5:01:54 AM EDT

[#26]

As soon as Magpul starts selling stock, Im buying.

Posted: 5/21/2007 9:25:18 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Hope it comes to fruition, the Pmag 20 is likley to follow. I can't get over how compact it is, I guess the one pictured is the 10.5" barrel version. A 16" would look look funny unless they extended the housing up 4" or so, but SBR is always an option.

They could always just make a fake suppressor for folks that needed a 16", but didn't want the funky look.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

They had planned to announce this thing at SHOT Show 07'?

What kind of date is set for this thing? Are we talking about something being developed along side the Masada or is this something on the back burner that will come out a year after the Masada?

P.S. it would have been cooler if the broom handle was foldable.

Posted: 5/21/2007 10:01:46 AM EDT

[#28]

if they sell that, i'm buying it.

that is farging sweet.

Posted: 5/21/2007 10:18:55 AM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Will it accept an RDIAS?

I no what have I done!

This is not a tag....looks nice. What else you guys hidin' under the table?

Posted: 5/21/2007 10:21:32 AM EDT

[#30]

I NEED ONE

Posted: 5/21/2007 10:32:50 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Hope it comes to fruition, the Pmag 20 is likley to follow. I can't get over how compact it is, I guess the one pictured is the 10.5" barrel version. A 16" would look look funny unless they extended the housing up 4" or so, but SBR is always an option.

SBR isn't an option for everyone.

Posted: 5/21/2007 10:52:54 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Hope it comes to fruition, the Pmag 20 is likley to follow. I can't get over how compact it is, I guess the one pictured is the 10.5" barrel version. A 16" would look look funny unless they extended the housing up 4" or so, but SBR is always an option for free people.

SBR isn't an option for everyone.

Fixed it, sorry about your damned ol' luck.

Posted: 5/21/2007 12:32:10 PM EDT

[#33]

The ultimate trunk gun cometh.

Posted: 5/21/2007 2:10:02 PM EDT

[#34]

Here's what I'm guessing the 12.5" bbl version will look like:

The 115gr OTM 6.8SPC loads from SSA chrono at around 2380fps at the muzzle out of a 12.5" bbl. Given the right chamber and twist, SSA combat loadings could push that to over 2470fps (which is what the original Remington loads were getting out of a 12" bbl). Considering that Dr. Gary Roberts estimates the frag threshold of 6.8SPC at 2100fps, the 12.5" bbl version would be a formidable manstopper in a really tiny package. Based on Greg Dennison's numbers from the 2004 NDIA Symposium, I'd guesstimate the fragmentation range to be around 180 yds for the combat loadings. I know I'd line up to buy one.

Posted: 5/21/2007 2:16:16 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
Would be nice in 6x35mm.

+1.

Posted: 5/21/2007 2:29:11 PM EDT

[#36]

Hmm need that and the new Keltec RFB 7.62 as well

Posted: 5/21/2007 3:07:31 PM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
As soon as Magpul starts selling stock, Im buying.

+1

Posted: 5/21/2007 3:23:55 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Here's what I'm guessing the 12.5" bbl version will look like:

www.visuality.com/personal/magpul/magpulpdw12_5.jpg

The 115gr OTM 6.8SPC loads from SSA chrono at around 2380fps at the muzzle out of a 12.5" bbl. Given the right chamber and twist, SSA combat loadings could push that to over 2470fps (which is what the original Remington loads were getting out of a 12" bbl). Considering that Dr. Gary Roberts estimates the frag threshold of 6.8SPC at 2100fps, the 12.5" bbl version would be a formidable manstopper in a really tiny package. Based on Greg Dennison's numbers from the 2004 NDIA Symposium, I'd guesstimate the fragmentation range to be around 180 yds for the combat loadings. I know I'd line up to buy one.

But would you still have eyebrows?

96Ag

Posted: 5/21/2007 4:14:04 PM EDT

[#39]

I'm intrigued by the design, but I have some concerns. First, can they tame the flash on a 5.56 round from 10-12 inch barrel? Second, how is the recoil? With such a light gun the recoil is most likely going to be greater than a Stoner based system. It looks like they got a Levang Compensator on the front of it, which could help the both the flash and muzzle rise, but I am still a tad skeptical. The design seems to have a lot of positives, but I would like to see how it stacks up against Knight’s, HK's, and FN's designs.

Posted: 5/22/2007 3:35:39 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:
Here's what I'm guessing the 12.5" bbl version will look like:

www.visuality.com/personal/magpul/magpulpdw12_5.jpg

The 115gr OTM 6.8SPC loads from SSA chrono at around 2380fps at the muzzle out of a 12.5" bbl. Given the right chamber and twist, SSA combat loadings could push that to over 2470fps (which is what the original Remington loads were getting out of a 12" bbl). Considering that Dr. Gary Roberts estimates the frag threshold of 6.8SPC at 2100fps, the 12.5" bbl version would be a formidable manstopper in a really tiny package. Based on Greg Dennison's numbers from the 2004 NDIA Symposium, I'd guesstimate the fragmentation range to be around 180 yds for the combat loadings. I know I'd line up to buy one.

Well said

Posted: 5/22/2007 3:47:55 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
I'm intrigued by the design, but I have some concerns. First, can they tame the flash on a 5.56 round from 10-12 inch barrel? Second, how is the recoil? With such a light gun the recoil is most likely going to be greater than a Stoner based system. It looks like they got a Levang Compensator on the front of it, which could help the both the flash and muzzle rise, but I am still a tad skeptical. The design seems to have a lot of positives, but I would like to see how it stacks up against Knight’s, HK's, and FN's designs.

I agree...I'm skeptical, but optimistic as well.

I'm really pulling for Magpul as I think they think more outside the box than any other American firearms company.

I would like to see a US company start pulling the contracts that have been going to companies like HK and Fn.

Posted: 5/24/2007 1:36:30 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm intrigued by the design, but I have some concerns. First, can they tame the flash on a 5.56 round from 10-12 inch barrel? Second, how is the recoil? With such a light gun the recoil is most likely going to be greater than a Stoner based system. It looks like they got a Levang Compensator on the front of it, which could help the both the flash and muzzle rise, but I am still a tad skeptical. The design seems to have a lot of positives, but I would like to see how it stacks up against Knight’s, HK's, and FN's designs.

I agree...I'm skeptical, but optimistic as well.

I'm really pulling for Magpul as I think they think more outside the box than any other American firearms company.

I would like to see a US company start pulling the contracts that have been going to companies like HK and Fn.

The necessary ingredient at this stage of their evolution is the development of mass production capability for complete firearms mfg. Either they contract/outsource or secure the funding to do it at the home base.

Posted: 5/24/2007 10:20:54 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I'm intrigued by the design, but I have some concerns. First, can they tame the flash on a 5.56 round from 10-12 inch barrel? Second, how is the recoil? With such a light gun the recoil is most likely going to be greater than a Stoner based system. It looks like they got a Levang Compensator on the front of it, which could help the both the flash and muzzle rise, but I am still a tad skeptical. The design seems to have a lot of positives, but I would like to see how it stacks up against Knight’s, HK's, and FN's designs.

I agree...I'm skeptical, but optimistic as well.

I'm really pulling for Magpul as I think they think more outside the box than any other American firearms company.

I would like to see a US company start pulling the contracts that have been going to companies like HK and Fn.

The necessary ingredient at this stage of their evolution is the development of mass production capability for complete firearms mfg. Either they contract/outsource or secure the funding to do it at the home base.

Would they have to be set-up for mass production before winning a large military contract or would that be something they could do after winning one?

Seems like they would have no problem finding the money to amp up mass production once they won a contract, but it would be a bit of a gamble to take if they went to the expense of having a large factory only to fall flat.

I suppose they could start with civilian and LEO sales to get the capital together to a make a run at a military contract.

Posted: 5/24/2007 11:20:26 AM EDT

[#44]

FLAMETHROWER!

Posted: 5/24/2007 11:48:23 AM EDT

[#45]

I wonder if this could be classified as a pistol rather than as a "rifle" going by the strict definition of the US Code?

Posted: 5/24/2007 11:59:33 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
I wonder if this could be classified as a pistol rather than as a "rifle" going by the strict definition of the US Code?

I believe that it would not because it has a stock...although it is a bullpup I'm pretty certain ATF would brand it a rifle the same way it did with the PS90.

Posted: 5/24/2007 12:21:38 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I wonder if this could be classified as a pistol rather than as a "rifle" going by the strict definition of the US Code?

I believe that it would not because it has a stock...although it is a bullpup I'm pretty certain ATF would brand it a rifle the same way it did with the PS90.

But was the PS90 classified as a carbine from the manufacturer? I mean that is it a "stock" or a "receiver"?

Posted: 5/24/2007 3:38:18 PM EDT

[#48]

Correct me if I am wrong, but what contract has HK actually won for the DoD? None.

FNH has contracts, but so does Colt.

Posted: 5/24/2007 4:03:04 PM EDT

[#49]

whats the deal wit the glued stock.?

i love magpul products but damn. btw whole thing does look sweet

Posted: 5/24/2007 4:09:18 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:
whats the deal wit the glued stock.?

i love magpul products but damn. btw whole thing does look sweet

It's a non-firing demo, so I would not be worried about the glued stock. There was a thread in another sub-forum saying that they were originally going to show this off during the Shot Show, but it got mangled in the transit process. The glued stock is most likely them fixing the cracks that developed during shipping.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Magpul PDR (Page 1 of 3)

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