Back in Dec 3rd 2007, I ordered a 22 kit for the AR-15. The check was cashed on Dec 15. It's Feb 7 and not a single thing in the mail. I have called a number of times , sent faxes, emails, and I'm going to their place of business later today. They haven't called, email, or fax any answer what so ever.

WTF is going on with these people?

This is the worst customer service ever. I'm so pissed I am think of calling the BCSO Cape Canaveral Precinct and filing a fraud report. They have taken my money. I have not relieved any product. I have rot been able to get any info from them. Nothing! This truly is starting to fall under a crime. I know that John Ciener cashed my check. I have an account with Wachovia and so does he. Wachovia told me when the check was cashed and also what account it's in. It damn says John Ciener!


Edited the title-aimless

Not cool.  I read/hear that they have piss poor customer service.  

I have a kit on order, but i expect it to take awhile to receive.  I ordered mine from ballisticsounds.com.  I really wish someone else could develop a good conversion kit so we don't have to rely on Ciener Inc.  

I've heard a LOT about Ciener....never once did I hear anything good.

The customer service is so bad that I've seen them put full page ads out in the past saying they are sorry.

Dennis Jenkins

Quoted: I've heard a LOT about Ciener....never once did I hear anything good.

Quoted: The customer service is so bad that I've seen them put full page ads out in the past saying they are sorry. Dennis Jenkins Quoted: I've heard a LOT about Ciener....never once did I hear anything good.

In Shotgun News?

Yeah I had the same thing happen to me. I had to send a certified letter demanding the kit and threatening legal action to get it (2 months later)

I got it a week later.

I should have bought one through a distributor who had them in stock.

Ciener charges a $10.00 fee to send stuff to Hawaii.  Thats, AFTER you pay the flat rate USPS.

He truly hates us all!

I bought my kit from Brownells. Brownells and Midway have bar none, the best customer service in the retail firearms/parts/accessories industry

I bought mine directly from HIM at Knob Creek. I've never had any problems with the unit, and any time I've ever called for some info on the thing I've never had a problem getting an answer. Maybe I'm just one of the 'lucky ones', but any time I've interacted with JAC I've been satisfied.

Quoted: I've heard a LOT about Ciener....never once did I hear anything good.

True that.

Quoted: Quoted: I've heard a LOT about Ciener....never once did I hear anything good. True that.

I don't know how he can show his face at KC. His customer service is widely known to suck and he is personally known to be an ass. He apparently knows his shit though so I guess he gets a pass because of it.

I know guys that have worked for him and every single of them say he is a first rate PRICK and his customer service reflects his attitude. I wanted to buy a suppressed Ruger from him some years back and he wouldn't even speak to me. He told his secretary to tell me he had more important work going on! Needless to say, I didn't buy the gun and won't ever deal with him again.

Good luck getting your kit, Miami_JBT.

My suprised face...

Ciener =Mr Burns.

Quoted: I bought my kit from Brownells. Brownells and Midway have bar none, the best customer service in the retail firearms/parts/accessories industry

How long did it take to you to get your kit from Brownells?

Quoted: Quoted: I bought my kit from Brownells. Brownells and Midway have bar none, the best customer service in the retail firearms/parts/accessories industry How long did it take to you to get your kit from Brownells?

I ordered just when BDM released their 30 rd mags, so it only took about 2 days total (before the Ciener kits kept getting sold out).

We got to meet Mr Ciener at SHOT this year. And surprisingly enough, he looked at our badges, knew exactly who we were and that our order will be coming soon.

Do realize, that he works on a first come first serve basis. If he's out of stock, he'll fill his oldest backorders first. Brownells and Midway will take of most of his production.

Not to discourage you even more, but we've been waiting on an order with him for 6 months now.

All the stuff you read about him pretty much results in the following: It takes forever to get your stuff, but you WILL get it. I've never heard of anyone that got the shaft and wasn't shipped their stuff.

My advice to you: order one elsewhere when they are in stock, and when you get the one from JAC, sell it on the EE. You'll be able to get your money back no problem.

He is a character though....

We obviously need to pitch in and get him a Mr. Burns' "Exceeelllleeeent" T-shirt.

After Action Report

The whole time I was polite and professional.

Well, I got to their place at 1:00PM EST. They claim on their recordings that between the hours of 12-Noon and 1pm that they are out to lunch so i wanted to catch them coming in form lunch.

I went and knocked on he door. First thing that happened is that they locked it. I'm not kidding. Someone locked the door. I heard and deadbolt turn quick and loud. Well, I simply went around to the back and saw that a door to their machine shop was open. I simply stood there and listened. Sure enough, someone said that they locked the front door when they heard the knocking. I didn't walk in but I told them that I wasn't leaving until I got answers.

I went back to the front door and continued to knock until they opened the door. That was for about 20 minutes. Some little 18 year old girl came and opened up and gave said  in a monotone voice "If you're here about the Help Wanted sign we meant to take that down". I told her no and she tried closing the door on me. I simply put my foot in the door. I told her that I drove from Miami to Cape Canaveral for answers and I was going to get them.

She let me in. I asked her why she or anyone else did not respond to my phone calls. She said that it wasn't her job to answer the phones and that she doesn't know the person that does. I then asked her what her job is. She said that she checked the fax machines and also handled the orders. I asked her then why she did not respond to my faxes and why I didn't get anything in the mail/phone/email as an order conformation. SHe just stood there dumb founded.

I explained to her that the action that Ciener Inc is taken can fall under a criminal charge if they continue what they're doing. That got her talking because the fear of a BCSO Deputy showing up scared her.

I asked to see my order and also to get either my product or a refund. She showed me the order and I demanded a copy. I got that at least. As for the refund or the product I got neither when I asked her.

I asked if Mr. Ceiner was there. She said no. I told her that I knew that she was lying because I know that Mr. Ceiner drives a Red Ford F-250 with a FL Tag of MINIGUN and a Ferrari sticker on the driver's side door (When I pulled in I had a feeling that it was his truck and I was right). She said that yeah it was his truck and that he was in the back. She went to the back and got him. He yelled at me telling me to "fuck off". He did not come out from the back to met me face to face. I told him that unless I get my .22 Kit or a Refund I can guarantee that I will report him to every Better Business Bureau and City/County/State LEO Agency that handles Business Regulations.



In the end, I got a Sales Receipt and a Fuck You from John Ciener. I filed a report with the Florida Department of Business & Professional Regulation.

As for the place itself. Horrible Condition. Their record keeping is as if a three chimps on crack was using toilet paper for food. I mean that gal spent twenty minutes going through mounds of papers on desks just to find my order (which happened to be the only copy until I demanded a copy). As for the faxes I also made sure that they got my faxes. I had my office send every fax I sent them. That's over forty pages. Anyways..... I'm also going to seek legal help from Howard Finkelstein (current Chief Public Defender for Broward County).

I spoke to some people in the area and they told me that Ciener will bow down and complete an order when people threaten him with legal action. I guess soon enough I will have my kit or I will follow through with my threat of legal action.

Wow...him and Fat Bob would get along GREAT!

Wow, that's a new low in customer dis-service.  Good job keeping your cool, well played!

It really makes me wonder why some other small machine shop isn't cranking these things out.  There's just not much to it, you could sell them at half the price and still make a profit.... that is if you actually sold them and not just advertized them.  

Quoted: After Action Report *snip*

 

Holy freakin' batshit batman. This guy has to have some complete corner of the market to act like that and still be in business right? From what Ive heard so far it doesnt look like there are any of his products in my future.

That guy takes the cake.

I got mine from ballisticsounds in about 2 weeks.

I don't know the backstory on this; does Ciener hold a patent on the AR .22 conversion that keeps others from competing with him?  Is there no alternate design?  With .223 prices at current levels, the demand for .22 kits is huge, so you would think there would be an alternative to JAC.

The OP's story is shocking.  My only dealing with JAC was to send him $ for a catalog a loooong time ago (pre-Internet); he kept the $ and didn't send me a catalog.

Unless you need full auto, an m261 with the new BDM high-caps levels the playing field.

m261s are available on the surplus market as well as newly manufactured by Oly.

Some other shops like Compass Lake Engineering also make replacement and enhancement parts.

How do people like that manage to stay in business??  

Quoted: Unless you need full auto, an m261 with the new BDM high-caps levels the playing field. m261s are available on the surplus market as well as newly manufactured by Oly. Some other shops like Compass Lake Engineering also make replacement and enhancement parts.

If you want semi-auto only, go with a GSG-5 (MP5-ish 22LR clone) and skip the AR-15 platform ............ $500 or so ...............

What a jerk, I would never buy one of his products based on what I have read here.  Actually would make me smile to see him go out of business with his attitude towards his customers.  

First time I heard about this asshole was in the late 80s/early 90s.

I was about to order a kit for a 10/22...

Was told that I'd regret it by someone that I was inclined to believe. Like three days later I ran across another person that fricking wanted to kill the guy. Since then, I've kinda kept my ears open because ciener is always good for a laugh.

The guy is a legend... and by that I mean fucking infamous...

Now you know why.

I met him at SHOT. My whole crew was surprised at how much of an contentious ignorant asshole he was. He complained about all the orders, complained about people talking to him at the show, because I can be a little straight about spending thousands to order product he told others in my company not to bring me back when we ordered. Not to mention he didn't even take his face out of his laptop to look at any of us.

I just walked away.

I hope Tactical Solutions' new conversion kit that uses the same mags puts him out of business if he is acting like that.

Hmmmmm........guys like that....at work...I fuck with 'em....hard.

I met him at Knob Creek many years ago and he was SELLING his business cards for 2 bits each!  

Despite everything, I've still bought a couple of kits off of him and am currently waiting (since May!) for an AK kit.  The AR and the 1911 kits both work great (although the AR kit took a bunch of tinkering to get it right.)

Quoted: I met him at Knob Creek many years ago and he was SELLING his business cards for 2 bits each!   Despite everything, I've still bought a couple of kits off of him and am currently waiting (since May!) for an AK kit.  The AR and the 1911 kits both work great (although the AR kit took a bunch of tinkering to get it right.)

OMG!

i met him at the shot show about 7-8 years ago and he was a complete ass. i was amazed at how he treated customers that wanted to buy his product. i saw many people with cash in hand just walk away from his booth after trying to talk with him.

He should sell the rights to his product to somebody else like Bravo Company or CMMG.  

That way we can get better customer service and he can not have to deal with anyone.

Max

Spend a few extra dollars and get a 22 cal upper with the proper twist for what you are shooting

Why do folks continue to order directly from Ceiner, with all of the horror stories you can easily find about their horrible customer service?  Go through a dealer who stocks them, and who has a good reputation.  It's not hard to do, and saves you a headache.

I want a 1911 conversion kit, I was going to order from Brownells, but I don't know if I want to support this guy at all.

Quoted: I want a 1911 conversion kit, I was going to order from Brownells, but I don't know if I want to support this guy at all.

Eh, there are douchenozzles in all walks of life, buy one from a dealer with them in stock. I wish I could remember who I bought mine from, it was a link posted in the AR discusions in the caliber conversion forum I think.

height=8

Quoted: I want a 1911 conversion kit, I was going to order from Brownells, but I don't know if I want to support this guy at all.

Although my Ciener unit works fine, if I had to get another one I'd get an Advantage Arms unit.  I have one for my Glock which works great and even locks back the slide after the last shot.  I've heard the Marvel kits are tack drivers.

Quoted: Spend a few extra dollars and get a 22 cal upper with the proper twist for what you are shooting

I'm sure he went with a kit for a reason.

Quoted: Quoted: Spend a few extra dollars and get a 22 cal upper with the proper twist for what you are shooting I'm sure he went with a kit for a reason.

Doesn't spike's tactical modify a Ceiner kit for their uppers?

Quoted: Quoted: Spend a few extra dollars and get a 22 cal upper with the proper twist for what you are shooting I'm sure he went with a kit for a reason.

Yeah, I always find those amusing.  A Ceiner kit costs $150.  A dedicated upper usually runs over $500.  His definition of "a few extra dollars" must be different than mine.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Spend a few extra dollars and get a 22 cal upper with the proper twist for what you are shooting I'm sure he went with a kit for a reason. Doesn't spike's tactical modify a Ceiner kit for their uppers?

Spike's and Model One's use modified Ciener kits.

This should be part of the great ARFcom FAQ'a (if we had them).

ARFcom FAQ number 231:
Never ever order ANYTHING directly from Ciener.
Always buy from Brownells or Midway or your local gun shop.

His kit was one of the 1st and for a long time the best.

BUT - Jonathan Arthur Ciener has a long reputation of showing up to SHOT and just being a total prick to everyone for little to no reason.  Order from someone else or, at a minimum, buy a Ciener kit from Brownells but don't expect the maker to back it up in a timely or friendly fashion.

Quoted: His kit was one of the 1st and for a long time the best. BUT - Jonathan Arthur Ciener has a long reputation of showing up to SHOT and just being a total prick to everyone for little to no reason.  Order from someone else or, at a minimum, buy a Ciener kit from Brownells but don't expect the maker to back it up in a timely or friendly fashion.

I walked by his booth and saw him sitting there.  I thought about going over there to see if I could spin him up, but had better things to do.

The 22 kit patent appears to be 3,776,095.  Invented by Atchisson, filed in 1971.

Does Ciener actually own the patent or control it in some way, or can any idiot with the proper equipment make identical devices?

People have been bitchin about this guy must be going on 30 something year now. This is nothing new folks!!!!