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Posted: 6/3/2006 4:24:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: GoatBoy]
First off, I know this has probably been "done to death" and there's probably a reference link on Quarterbore's site or something, but I was initially interested in a M10 or M11 and was talked out of it and talked into a rifle caliber C3/NFA gun and was trying to decide between an AC556 and FN FNC, but after reading about all those I have taken it to the next level and will soon have the funds to move into the "M16" category. Now, my question is: which way should I go given my situation;
Registered Lightning Link Registered Drop-In Auto Sear Registered Receiver ? My situation is that I have NO full auto stuff, but I do have a LOT of AR15 stuff. I have about 20 complete AR15 uppers and 10 complete AR15 lowers of various manufacture (DPMS, Eagle Arms, MEGA, VM HY-TEC, Bushmaster and Rock River Arms). My understanding is that if I go with the RR or RDIAS, I'd have to get M16 bolt carriers for all the uppers I want to use with the NFA/C3 lower, and if I went with the RDIAS, in addition to bolt carriers, I'd have to get a fire control group for the lower I want to use the RDIAS in, and remove it when I remove the RDIAS, but the advantage is that I could use it in a *new* lower as long as it didn't have the sear block (shelf) in there. The advantage of the RLL (as I understand it to be) is that I can use it in ANY AR15 without changing any parts and it will work fine; the disadvantage being that I lose the ability to use semi-auto while it's in there (unless I do some sort of modification to it). Can anyone help me outline the pros and cons to each option? I am THIS close to forking over the $$ and since I will only be able to afford one, I want to make sure I mke a wise decision. Thanks! |
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www.ArizonaShooting.com
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I recently purchased a RDIAS which is now being transferred to my local dealer.
From my research, the DIAS is not caliber specific, but turns whatever platform it's installed in, into a sub machine gun. Therefore, if you have a lower with it installed, the upper can be 9mm, .223 or whatever other cal. you have. You will be within the requrements of the NFA, including barrel length less than 16". If you own other AR's you might not want to have more than one short barrel, however. Seems that there is a letter to that effect that specifies that you are in possession of a SBR if you have two short barrels, more than one lower, and only one NFA tax stamp for either a SMG or SBR. Here's the letter I am referring to, however, I do not claim it is the last word from BATFE. www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter90.txt Remember also that you don't just "Drop" a sear in and have a full auto gun. You'll need the associated FCG parts as well as the sear, and my intention is to leave them installed in one dedicated lower, and switch uppers as I see fit. |
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Does a Lighting Link work when the AR15 is not vertical?
Friend (who has half dozen HK sears and everthing else is chopped liver ;-) was thinking this is the case. Paper work got messed up on the Lighting Link from this summer ... so still an option. |
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I assume you me horizontal. Yes the LL will work reguardless of orientation of the AR15. |
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I recall a tale of woe posted by someone on rec.guns many years ago. His father had a house fire which totalled the house -- and melted his registered-receiver M16 into an aluminum puddle. A steel RDIAS or RLL would probably have been unaffected, unless they're heat-treated or something. Anyway, just a thought. |
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yes but with that much money in a gun, its probably in a safe, a damned good one too. |
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"These days I don't ask for much;
Just the grace of God and my womans touch, Strength each day to face the fight, and place in someones prayers at night." |
In a hot house fire the steel tends to be damaged due to heat (temper) plus small steel parts will tend to "burn" (i.e. form oxides).
Best policy is a good alarm system, fire proof safe and insurance if all goes bad. A nice feature of the "small" NFA conversion devices, it that you can keep the "extra' ones in a bank box when not in use - and keep all the NFA coversion devices in the bank box during times of "no shooting" (winter up north, travel, holidays etc.). |
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what are the associated costs with a RLL ?
I haven't been able to find any information of where you guys are legally purchasing these items. I've got about $20,000 budgeted, but obviously I'd like to spend as little as posssible to make room for other toys :) |
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Pleased to meet you. Hope you guess my name...
FL, USA
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The costs are a $200 transfer tax for an item registered to a dealer anywhere, or to a non-dealer in your state; $400 (because an extra transfer is required) if you buy from an out-of-state individual. In addition, you may have state sales taxes and dealer fees for handling transfers, which vary. Since the only legal MGs are those registered prior to May 19, 1986, there are only about 100,000 total in existence; maybe 25,000 of these are AR/M16 RRs, RDIAS and RLLs. We buy them from each other, and from dealers who buy, sell and trade. Check ads on the EE here, as well as on subguns.com and sturmgewehr.com. A few pop up on other boards like gunbroker and auctionarms, but they tend to be higher-priced. You can also contact dealers and see what they may have in their fast-moving and very small inventories. A list of recommended dealers is www.subguns.com/c2c3/c2c3.htm |
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This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
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If you actually read the story, it clearly says the lower receiver was not damaged, the upper receiver was destroyed. Since the FA and clearly the most expensive part of a MG is the lower receiver, this story does not count as a minus against getting a lower receiver. Also, the story clearly said the cause of the stoppage and resulting kaboom was a lot of sand in the barrel, something I doubt many of us would allow. |
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"When did it become socially unacceptable to not be a victim?"
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I remember in the 80's and early 90's the BATF's once-a-machinegun-always-a-machinegun rule married the rdias to the receiver once it was installed. You could install the rdias in any receiver, but once it was there that was it. I also believe the once-a-machinegun . . . rule was struck down in a case with Vollmer v. BATF by the DC Circuit in the early 90's. I never heard anything more on the subject since then. Did the BATF give up on enforcing the RDIAS -- Receiver marriage rule?
P.S. I just found this forum and I think it is great. |
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As far as the DIAS being "married", before the 1981 change of ATF's machinegun definition, a guy could submit a Form 1 to convert his Colt SP1 to a machine gun. Once approved he could go to a gunshow and buy a DIAS and the M16 parts. Put them in his SP1 and have a funtioning sellect fire machine gun without having to drill the hole for the GI auto sear. The unserialized DIAS is "married" to the SP1 receiver. If on the other hand, he came up with a different serial # and registered the DIAS as a machine gun. He could use the same set up but the DIAS would be listed as the machine gun with a physical decription of the sear as the machine gun instead of the description of the SP1.
As far as this debate of RLLvs RDIAS vs RR, I'm amazed no one has brought up the MGI system. If you are unfirliar go to www.mgimilitary.com to see some pictures and specs. In my opinion that is what has driven the price of a RDIAS past the price of a complete Colt M16. MGI has a .308 slide on magwell and a .45 ACP gas operated upper with a magwell that uses unaltered Grease Gun mags. They also have a beltfeeding modual in preproduction. Slide off the GG magwell and slide on a 5.56X45 modual that will feed a standard M16 upper with 5.56 using SAW linked ammo. All from the same lower. Of course the beltfeed modual will only work with a MGI lower. So you would need a RLL or RDIAS to convert the MGI lower into a machine gun. To me a lower with a conversion device that will shoot .308, .45 ACP with unaltered GG mags, plus all the other calibers alread available to a M16, plus being capable of being belt feed, makes for a really cool machine gun. Scott |
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Can you use a RDIAS or RLL with an AR10 (.308 round)? Has it been done before?
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I don't think so. Quaterbore posted a pic of an AR10 DIAS (post sample) and it looked nothing like an RDIAS. Also, Quaterbore was working on getting his RLL to work on an AR10, but I think that didn't work out as well. Hopefully Quarterbore will step in here. However, the MGI modular lower will have a .308 magwell and is compatible with an RDIAS and RLL. |
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If you act like a bitch, you get slapped like a bitch!
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The MGI modular lower has a .308 magwell that is in development. According to Mack at MGI, their .308 system will be full auto compatible. So if you had a RDIAS in their .308 system it would be full auto. Infact MGI has in developement a belt feed modual that will take the place of a magwell. They are supposed to offer belt feed moduals in 5.56X45, 7.62X39, and 7.62X51.
Scott |
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Also, the new POF .308 lower "looks" to be RDIAS and RLL compatible. I got the impressiong from TWL that the .308 magwell is a while off from release since I the .45ACP and 9mm magwells are supposed to be released first. And the belt fed uppers are a long ways off (probably years). |
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If you act like a bitch, you get slapped like a bitch!
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Sorry, I never saw this post before now... I actually never worked on the LL with the AR-10 much beyond seeing it would be possible. All that it really needs is to have the shelf lowered a little and perhaps modify the rear takedown lug to allow clearance. Then you would need to mill the bottom of the AR-10 carrier to work with the link but the basic geometry looks correct... I still have photos and details uploaded here: www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=167 and www.quarterbore.net/forums/showthread.php?t=166 As for the DIAS, that will require quite a bit of work to ise with an AR-10 as the AR-10 rear takedown lug is larger. To make this work with the DIAS you would need to weld the rear takedown pin hole closed, mill the rear lug down to the size of an AR-15 lug, and then redrill everything (at least I am pretty sure the AR-10 rear takedown pin is larger then an AR-15 and that there would not be a lot of meat left if you try to cut an AR-10 lug down to fit aroud the DIAS) There is a SOT that makes a AR-10 LIGHTNING LINK that looks like a DIAS but when you look at it it is clearly a auto disconector and NOT a auto sear! Details of this are posted here: www.quarterbore.com/nfa/ar10autoconnector.html Hope that helps some... |
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www.Quarterbore.net
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Which companies make lowers without the shelf?
I'll accept this, but I'm curious where it's written in the BATFE "laws" that this can't be done. Also, I thought I read in a way older thread about this being done before... or was it something else? Is there anything firearms related that can be re-manufactured and serial number transferred (with the old part being destroyed to avoid duplicates)? Or am I thinking of something like car parts of something completely unrelated? |
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"There are advantages to a .308 as well, you can shoot bears and refrigerators."
JerodJohnson "Some people's minds are so damn open that their brains fall clear out." RikWriter |
These lowers should be RDIAS and RLL friendly: EARLY Colt LAR foundry = LAR, Bushmaster, Ameetech (advertised as compatible), DPMS, CMMG (advertised as compatible), Double Star, Fulton MMS foundry = Mega (advertised as compatible), GSE, Dalphon, POF, Alexander Arms Bushmaster lowers without an "L" at the beginning of their serial number are made in-house by Bushmaster and are not DIAS compatible. So says the internet folks, anyway. There may be more lowers that are compatible, but those are the ones I'm told are safe. |
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My RDIAS work fine in the POF P-416 Gen 2 receiver. There is a littel more left and right play than normal, but it runs like a top!
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How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
FL, USA
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People get confused by the AW ban (1994-2004), which did allow receiver replacement. The machine gun ban, however, does not. The reason is the different ways Congress worded the two bans. --The '94 AW ban said that, effective on October 1994, no more so-called "assault weapons" could be manufactured for civilian ownership. It made no mention whatsoever of the "assault weapons" manufactured prior to that date, so there were no legal restrictions placed on the repair or receiver replacement of preban firearms. --The '86 MG ban was a flat ban of all machine guns for civilian ownership, regardless of the date of the firearm's manufacture. But the law added a clause that proof of legal ownership of an existing MG prior to May 19, 1986 was an affirmative defense against prosecution. The "legal ownership" part has been interpreted by BATFE and the courts to mean any machine gun listed in the NFA Registry prior to May 19, 1986. And the "affirmative defense" clause means that under the law, all MGs are illegal for civilians -- but you cannot be prosecuted for owning one if it was registered prior to the effective date. Now, a note about law in the U.S.: There are two bodies of law which govern us, those specifically written by Congress, and administrative law, which is written by government agencies empowered with enforcing the broad laws passed by Congress. Administrative law carries the same weight, and in fact the majority of specific laws governing us were written by agencies, not by Congresscritters. If you don't like an administrative law, you have the option of challenging it in federal court; otherwise, it remains the law of the land. Among BATFE's administrative findings is that the 1986 ban, in effect, froze the status of machine guns. Thus, they prohibit many modifications. If a registered-receiver AR15 was converted via an unserialed DIAS, you cannot now drill the sear hole to "complete" the receiver. A registered-receiver Uzi which has its blocking bars intact cannot have them cut out now. Registered-receiver HKs cannot be drilled for the push-pin. In all three cases, these modifications would only be to bring the receivers up to spec to match their current Form 1s/4s. Yet doing so is a felony (manufacture and subsequent possession of a new, post-1986 machine gun). My take: Given that BATFE states that it is a felony to drill one hole in an existing registered receiver that was manufactured and registered prior to May 19, 1986, there is no way they will legally let you replace the entire hunk of metal. Yes, I know some transferable receivers have been replaced in the past. I wish the best to their owners. |
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This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
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Sorry, Im kinda changing the subject, but where can you find a RDIAS and about how much do they cost.
ETA And can they be used in an unmodified lower receiver(except for fire control parts of course) |
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saw one today for 13.5K I would not sell mine for 15K. |
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Every once in awhile I should just "KICK MYSELF IN THE NUTZ" just to remind myself that im about to do something stupid!!!!!!
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I may be wrong but a I don't think a LL won't work with POF bolt carriers.
I have a full auto carrier and a semi and the semi doesn't look like the pics of the SP1 carrier. You could always mill it down if the specs aren't right. Is anyone running a LL in a POF? |
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pics??????
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do you have a link to the thread? |
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How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
FL, USA
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Photo and a link to the website are in the second post on page three of this thread. So just back up a bit. |
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This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
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can you use a RDIAS in an ar10?
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How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
FL, USA
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Not legally, and not without modifications. |
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This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
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Why not legally? |
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Xerxes - I have so many archers that their arrows will blot out the sun.
Spartan - So much the better, we shall fight in the shade. |
How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
FL, USA
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BATFE's view: A registered machine gun conversion device may only be used in the firearm for which it was originally designed. If it were legal, we would all be buying $3k FNC sears and installing them in AR15s (yes, it can be done, and yes, it has been proposed to BATFE, which shot the idea down, ruling that any such host modification would constitute manufacture of a post-sample MG). While the AR10 was designed by the same folks as the AR15, it is dimensionally different enough that it is no longer a drop-in conversion. Modifying the host AR10 to accept an RDIAS or other pre-'86 registered conversion device is considered by BATFE to be manufacture of a post-1986 MG. |
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This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
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How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
FL, USA
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Uppers in different calibers or that require tuning for timing aren't a problem: As long as they bolt onto a standard-spec AR15 lower receiver, you are good to go with an RDIAS. At least, they are OK today -- who knows what BATFE will rule tomorrow? |
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This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
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The new |
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Could someone explain the process for putting a new upper on each of these (a RR, a lower with a RDIAS installed, and a lower with a RLL in it)? I'm just wondering what all is involved with swapping from .223 to .22LR or 9mm or some other caliber on each of these.
-Nick |
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We'll never forget - 343 - Charleston Nine
SC, USA
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Typically, with a RLL or RDIAS, we have several hosts. I have 4 AR's in different configurations and all I have to do is remove the RLL from the current host, and throw it in the new host. It's that easy. I may need to swap paddles on the LL if required for timing. When I get a new host, I measure and then order custom paddles for that specific rifle. With a RDIAS, you have to use a M16 FCG. You'd have to remove the RDIAS from the current host and remove the FCG. install the FCG in a new host along with the RDIAS. If you're just going to use a new upper receiver, all you'd need to do is swap the upper and that should be it. I'm not too sure as I don't have a RDIAS. There may or may not be any timing issues. With a RR it's a bit different. You'd have to add a mag block if it's required for a sub-caliber. One of my buddies has a RR and he has a light hammer spring for .22lr use. If he's going to shoot any other caliber, he has to swap that spring out. IMO the RLL is the conversion device. |
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<font size=3>IYAOYAS</font id=s3>
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Does anyone know the answer to this? I am thinking about going the RDIAS route sometime in the distant future and will probable keep it in one lower most of the time. If I do this, will I need to do a bunch of adjustments/check timing/etc. every time I swap from a .223 to a .22LR upper? Also, from looking at pictures (posted in the latest F/A picture thread), I see some lowers marked for 3-round burst AND auto (along with safe and semi). I've always though it was just one or the other. How does this work? Can it be done with a RDIAS? (I probably sound like an idiot asking this question, but ya gotta find out somehow, right?) Also, again so I don't sound like an idiot in the future, is an AR15 with a RDIAS installed still called an AR15, or is it then an M16? Or are only Colt M16s called M16s? |
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We'll never forget - 343 - Charleston Nine
SC, USA
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<font size=3>IYAOYAS</font id=s3>
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As your other questions were answered already, I'll just address this one. The 3rd burst kit works by having two disconnectors, a regular one, and the burst disconnector, which is actuated by the burst cam on the modified 3rd burst hammer. In semi, both disconnectors work together, and the function of the burst disconnector is redundant, since the regular disconnector is functioning on every shot. In burst, the selector cams down on the tail of the regular disconnector, preventing it from engaging the hammer. The burst disconnector has no tail to engage the selector, so its function is regulated by the notches on the burst cam. The burst cam holds the burst disconnector out of engagement with the hammer for two shots, then lets the burst disconnector grab the hammer after the third shot. The "enhanced" or "4-position" kit is the same as a 3rd burst kit, but BOTH the disconnector and burst disconnector have "tails". In "semi" neither disconnector is held back by the selector, so the regular disconnector does it job of grabbing the hammer after every shot. In "burst", the regular disconnector is held back by the selector, but the burst disconnector is allowed to do its job of grabbing the hammer on every third shot. In "auto", both disconnectors are held back by the selector, allowing fully automatic fire. |
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Dumb question, but would someone tell me what an FCG is. Thanks
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Originally Posted By rico903:
Dumb question, but would someone tell me what an FCG is. Thanks Fire Control Group Consists of: hammer, hammer spring, hammer pin, trigger, trigger spring, trigger pin, disconnector, disconnector spring, selector, selector detent, selector detent spring full auto adds: auto sear, auto sear spring, auto sear pin and the hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector are slightly different 3rb adds: burst disconnector, burst disconnector spring, burst cam, burst cam spring, with the hammer, trigger and disconnector again being slightly different. |
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"The only real difference between the men and the boys, is the number and size, and cost of their toys."
NRA Life, GOA Life, CSSA Life, NRA Certified Instructor, FFL/SOT 07/C2 |
Gotta clarify something.
With a RDIAS, a person can use a 300BLK,9mm, .22LR, etc upper without issue... can a person do the same with a Colt M16A1 lower that's marked .223 or 5.56? |
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How was I to know she was with the Russians, too?
FL, USA
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This is Tony K, and I approved this message.
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Texas -
Bigger than France. "The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so." --RWR, 1964 |
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I can't decide if I want to laugh or cry looking at some of the prices that were quoted at the beginning of this thread
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Originally Posted By colossians323:
I can't decide if I want to laugh or cry looking at some of the prices that were quoted at the beginning of this thread View Quote |
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"I prefer dangerous freedom over peaceful slavery". - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted By Spartikis: And I'm sure people considered those prices "Outragous" back then just like they do now. 20 years from now people will look back on $18k for a non-colt RR and wish they would have bought when they were "Cheap" View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Spartikis: Originally Posted By colossians323: I can't decide if I want to laugh or cry looking at some of the prices that were quoted at the beginning of this thread And I'm sure people considered those prices "Outragous" back then just like they do now. 20 years from now people will look back on $18k for a non-colt RR and wish they would have bought when they were "Cheap" Lolol. 20 years? Try 2....here we are. |
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