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I have a few more pictures that I am going to post, but I'm on a 24 hour shift so it won't be until I get home in the morning.
I'm glad I'm not dead, but I'm pretty bummed about this whole thing. |
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Yep, just glad that you're OK. This sucks, and I'm sorry for you that it happened. Not a Glock person, so I'll wait until they chime in. But that case looks like it was never fully in the chamber and you had an out of battery kaboom.
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I wonder if you had bullet setback, causing over pressure.
As for glock, send it in to them, tell them its your fault, and give them a credit card number. I'd bet they replace the frame for about $200ish and send it back to you. Well it is good to read that you have all your fingers. Good luck with future reloading. |
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Glad your Ok too. I don't have enough experience reloading to help you. I did notice the primer blew out, noteing pressure in the case. stating the obvious is all I can do. I'll be curious what others with more experience have to say.
My simple question, and I hesitate to ask it for fear of derailing the thread, is why is it always a .40 and a glock combo? Thats a serious question I would like answered some day. And please ignore anyone who says "thats why you don't reload for glocks." |
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Just one question...the case that is pictured....did it blow the primer out also?
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I have gone so far as to pound 40 cal bullets into the case as deep as possible - the case was bulging and the slide had to be pounded into battery - no kB. These were factory 180gr Gold Dots, hot ammo. I began to take bullet setback in the 40 as being less of an issue than is generally reported.
I also did this with Remington ammo which probably wasn't a good idea, because Remington ammo is pretty low quality. |
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Looking at all your info, I would say it was just the glock and a bad case. Pretty much anything you did was irrelevant. Just surfing this site I have seen pictures of KB glocks using factory ammo. Dont fret it and keep reloading for other weapons besides the glock.
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I bet Glock would fix that for about $50 bucks. That looks like a simple case head failure. The G-22's I have seen blow up have split the chamber, yours looks fine.
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glad to see you are ok.
have you pulled the bullets that are in the same lot of reloads to check powder and to inspect the casings? could the round have been slightly out of battery? |
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dont alot of people buy the wolf barrels as they have more chamber support
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I don't see what you did wrong. I feel for ya, early on I destroyed the barrel of a S&W pre-model designation five-screw Model 27 because I didn't understand crimping. (Or that powders actually have temperature ratings. When you go shooting 20 degrees below the minimum temp for Blue Dot, interesting things happen. That was a $480 mistake to fix.)
The way I see it, the options are: - Unsupported case head - Wrong primer - Wrong powder - Too much powder - Not enough powder - Bullet set-back - Barrel obstruction - Combination thereof Reading your description, I'd say 1 and 6 are your best bet, 4 or 5 maaaay be an option but I doubt it. Frankly, you'll never know, and all you can do is make sure your process eliminates those options in the future. I'd send the gun & case in to Glock for repair, put aside .40 reloading FOR NOW, and gain some more experience with your other calibers. Don't sell guns or equipment, you'll need them later. |
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I've never loaded plated bullets. Are they sized the same as jacketed or lead bullets? If sized as lead, would this change the load data from the same weight jacketed bullet?
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I am surprised looking at the pictures that your hand is not in worse shape. I am glad that you are ok, though I imagine that it stung pretty good.
Now I have not been reloading all that long, but it seems that your process is sound. I agree that sending it back to Glock may give you a better answer why, but I doubt that much is salvageable from the gun. I don't know if they would want to reuse the barrel even though nothing looks wrong with it. I am not sure what I would do in this situation. My confidence would be ruined and I am not sure that I could reload again. Having said that I think I would continue to reload, just not for the Glock unless I put an aftermarket barrel on. ETA strike through. I took to long to reply and apparently I don't know squat about Glocks, nor their repair facilities. |
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Not an expert but I'd look at your other brass that you shot this range trip. Any bulges in the brass there?
I'd have to say an overcharge just based on the assumption that your primer was blown out. Doesn't appear to be an out of battery discharge to me. It appears the brass is fully seated or very close to it the best I can tell. ETA: Send gun to Glock and explain what happened. From what I have read they will prob help you out and fix at a cheaper than purchasing new rate. |
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Quoted:
Glad your Ok too. I don't have enough experience reloading to help you. I did notice the primer blew out, noteing pressure in the case. stating the obvious is all I can do. I'll be curious what others with more experience have to say. My simple question, and I hesitate to ask it for fear of derailing the thread, is why is it always a .40 and a glock combo? Thats a serious question I would like answered some day. And please ignore anyone who says "thats why you don't reload for glocks." Glock .40s have an unsupported chamber. OP-were the once fired cases a little bulged before resizing them? Like others have chimed, I'm wondering if the round was slightly OOB combined w/ a partially unsupported chamber. I don't own any Glocks but notice when I pick up once fired cases left by a glock there is a noticeable bulge. Full length sizing usually will get rid of the bulge and it will seat flush in the case gauge but sometimes it won't and it will "stick" a little bit. It's not until I run it through the FCD that 100% of the cases will sit in the case gauge w/ ease. |
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What were the first 15 shots charged with & what did the brass look like when you (hopefully) picked it up? Did you use the same mag for the second set as the first? Are the feed ramp edges sharp or smooth? Where does that particular bullet contact the feed ramp? Does a cartridge ride both feed lips of an undamaged mag or is there possible left/right slewing as it leaves the mag? Have you tested any of that batch to see how much static pressure it takes to cause a setback?
Based on pictures 7, 13, & 14 I would guess setback. On my 40 loads there is a discernible shiny crimp ring at the cartridge mouth which is not visible in your pictures. Keep the reloads and once you've got the repair try chambering a bunch of them & see if any scratches appear on the bullet that could lead to setback under fire. |
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been there and done that but with a 9mm.
as i read, my 'problem' was due to a bulged case. it blew out the mag, as in blew the bottom piece and all my rounds wound up on the ground! this happened before i started shooting 40s&w. i continued to load for my g19 but i resized the cases further down and shot it for years afterward but i sold it. i shoot an xd in 40s&w but when you get your glock back i'd buy a lone wolf or fully supported barrel. just my thoughts. damn glad you're okay! |
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Just from what I saw, it looks like the round did not fully seat into the barrel prior to firing. this can be caused by either the case being too long or the crimp was not proper and it did not allow the case to go and seat fully. When you set your factory crimp die its always a good idea to remove the barrel from the gun and drop a sample round into it. If it fully seats with out requiring any force and then drops back out easily it should be good to go. But if you have to force the round to seat with your finger and it will not just drop back out then something is wrong. It is important to remember that cases like this headspace on the case mouth. If your case has excessive length then it will seat with some of the unsupport portion of the round exposed. You may have seen in other posts that some people do not think you have to trim stright wall cases. I myself thought this for years until one day after coming back from the range I noticed buldges and cracks in several of my 45 ACP caes. The problem turned out to the case was well past the maximum allowed case length, and the cases were not going in far enough to support the back of the case. Have also seen a problem if the crimp is bad for example not enough crimp and the case mouth is still expanded out enough to prevent the case from going into the chanber properly. If it were me I would first check some of my fired cases for length and see if they are the correct length and if they are in the proper range then try as I said before dropping a few into your barrel the round should just drop in and drop out.
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Sorry about your loss, but I won't even buy once fired .40 cases since they
may have been fired in a glock. That little pregnant bulge in the case head you see on fired brass is a bit too freaky for me. |
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thats crazy scary. glad u r ok. post pics of your hand the next day or two did it bruise real bad
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Quoted:
Glad your Ok too. I don't have enough experience reloading to help you. I did notice the primer blew out, noteing pressure in the case. stating the obvious is all I can do. I'll be curious what others with more experience have to say. My simple question, and I hesitate to ask it for fear of derailing the thread, is why is it always a .40 and a glock combo? Thats a serious question I would like answered some day. And please ignore anyone who says "thats why you don't reload for glocks." It's not just Glocks, but it does happen to them most commonly. Unsupported Case is not the only cause either, as THIS proves that even an HK 45 with a fully supported head can go kaboom with bad ammo. The most disturbing evidence against the Glock design is kb's with new factory ammo as described HERE with Federal Hydroshocks. Federal caused, Glock caused, or both...but definitely not reload caused!! That said, I'm going to do my best to help to research the whys of the current catastrophe. |
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EDIT
I just checked your loads true blue is way to fast for Plated or lead cast ammo IMHO I have KKM barrels in all my glocks ! Because glock barrels are trash ! |
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Not trying to be a smartass here ,but whats the moral of the story here ? Buy a lone wolf or kkm barrel ? Glad to hear that the OP is ok...hang in there with reloading man...this has me perplexed as I have several Glocks, and have never had this problem with my loads.
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True blue list the 180gr lead max at 5.7. You are at 6.0 which exceeds the load max. looks just like a overpressure problem.
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Quoted:
True blue list the 180gr lead max at 5.7. You are at 6.0 which exceeds the load max. looks just like a overpressure problem. The following is from Berry's website - Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads. 6.0 is in that range, as well as the fact that the velocity produced was below what Berry's considers to be max for these bullets. |
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Not trying to be a smartass here ,but whats the moral of the story here ? Buy a lone wolf or kkm barrel ? Glad to hear that the OP is ok...hang in there with reloading man...this has me perplexed as I have several Glocks, and have never had this problem with my loads. I don't get what you are saying. Are you saying you don't get the point of the replies or the point of my post? The point is that I am asking for help in figuring out what went wrong and how to avoid it in the future. |
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Just one question...the case that is pictured....did it blow the primer out also? Yes, the primer was blown out. That was one of my questions, does that mean this is an absolute sign of overcharging? |
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I'm probably not adding anything new - but this looks like the classic Glock .40 unsupported case failure that occurs from time to time with stressed reloaded brass. From what I hear, you have two options with the Glock .40
1) don't reload (in which case the gun should be 100% good). 2) replace your factory barrel with one that has better chamber support (I can but assume at the expense of feed reliability). Glad you're OK. Will you ever trust this gun again? I wouldn't - dump it and move on to a different brand. As to your rounds, I'd be comfortable shooting those in a different brand gun - but that's me. |
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Quoted:
I have gone so far as to pound 40 cal bullets into the case as deep as possible - the case was bulging and the slide had to be pounded into battery - no kB. These were factory 180gr Gold Dots, hot ammo. I began to take bullet setback in the 40 as being less of an issue than is generally reported. I also did this with Remington ammo which probably wasn't a good idea, because Remington ammo is pretty low quality. That's good to know. I chambered the rest of the loaded rounds into my glock 23 and then rechecked COAL and had no changes. |
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glad to see you are ok. have you pulled the bullets that are in the same lot of reloads to check powder and to inspect the casings? could the round have been slightly out of battery? I did pull the rest of the bullets and they were the exact charge that I had listed on my chart from weighing each charge prior to seating the bullets. I did inspect the casings before I loaded them, as well as after pulling the remaining bullets. I did not see anything out of the ordinary. They were all below the max trim length as well. |
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One issue caused by the Pro 1000. Occasionally a case mouth will get hung up and not enter the sizing die or expanding/powder die correctly then I have to reverse the handle a tiny bit to get the case re-centered. Once straight I re-reverse the handle and continue sizing.
During all this moving around it is easy to get cornfused and end up double charging a case. If (IF) this happened and you automatically seated a bullet w/o weighing the charge you could have a grenade loaded. I try to use a powder and charge that will overflow the case if doubled for just this reason. No KB's yet and it's been a few years but I have pulled a few suspect rounds. |
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Quoted:
What were the first 15 shots charged with & what did the brass look like when you (hopefully) picked it up? Did you use the same mag for the second set as the first? Are the feed ramp edges sharp or smooth? Where does that particular bullet contact the feed ramp? Does a cartridge ride both feed lips of an undamaged mag or is there possible left/right slewing as it leaves the mag? Have you tested any of that batch to see how much static pressure it takes to cause a setback? Based on pictures 7, 13, & 14 I would guess setback. On my 40 loads there is a discernible shiny crimp ring at the cartridge mouth which is not visible in your pictures. Keep the reloads and once you've got the repair try chambering a bunch of them & see if any scratches appear on the bullet that could lead to setback under fire. For the first fifteen I shot, I followed the casing with my eyes after the shot to see where it landed, and picked it up to check for pressure signs. I didn't see any pressure signs or any indication of bulging w/ the naked eye. I used the same magazine. It and the gun were pretty new and have less than 500 rounds through them. I did not do the pressure test to check what it takes to cause a setback, I will when I get home, I left 10 of them loaded to run checks as stuff came up on here. As for the crimp edge, I didn't think I was supposed to heavily crimp these due to pressure spikes? Am I wrong? |
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Quoted:
One issue caused by the Pro 1000. Occasionally a case mouth will get hung up and not enter the sizing die or expanding/powder die correctly then I have to reverse the handle a tiny bit to get the case re-centered. Once straight I re-reverse the handle and continue sizing. During all this moving around it is easy to get cornfused and end up double charging a case. If (IF) this happened and you automatically seated a bullet w/o weighing the charge you could have a grenade loaded. I try to use a powder and charge that will overflow the case if doubled for just this reason. No KB's yet and it's been a few years but I have pulled a few suspect rounds. I had read about the double charging problem, so I decided if there was a problem I would just remove that casing aside and break it down later into components and start over with it. I did not want to ever double pump the lever for just that reason. As for the powder that does not allow a double charge, and can be used with lead, FMJ or plated, can anyone recommend one? |
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Quoted:
True blue list the 180gr lead max at 5.7. You are at 6.0 which exceeds the load max. looks just like a overpressure problem. The following is from Berry's website - Plated bullets occupy a position between cast bullets and jacketed bullets. They are soft lead, but have a hard outer shell on them. When loading plated bullets we have found best results using low- to mid-range jacketed data in the load manual. You must use data for a bullet that has the same weight and profile as the one you are loading. Do not exceed mid-range loads. Do not use magnum loads. 6.0 is in that range, as well as the fact that the velocity produced was below what Berry's considers to be max for these bullets. The info on the ramshot page shows info a 180gr jhp. not a FMJ. I think at the 6.0 load,if you had a double charge,it would spill out of the case. |
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It looks like the rim held together, but there was signs of plasma coming through the primer pocket. Take a new primer and try to insert it in the fractured case. If the primer is still snug, the primer pocket has not expanded. If the new primer fits loose then the primer pocket has expanded indicaiting over pressure.
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Quoted: Quoted: Just one question...the case that is pictured....did it blow the primer out also? Yes, the primer was blown out. That was one of my questions, does that mean this is an absolute sign of overcharging? Generally, yes. But only when the case is otherwise undamaged. When there is a blowout, the brass is grossly deformed and the hoop stress in the primer pocket will cause deformation. This appears to be what happened in your pistol. Glock .40 S&W barrels need fresh brass. The cases are stressed plastically in the region of the feed ramp. This is a HARD part of the case. When resized, it becomes brittle. This is the most likely situation here. |
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I am glad you are ok, it's things like this that make a new reloader like myself always have chills to see. IMO it looks like you were pushing the plated bullets a bit too fast. I would try and make a couple calls to the respective powder and bullet companies to see about their input as well about the listed charges. At 6.0gr I don't really see you being able to double charge, but it looks like you just over charged. I would get back on the horse though as mistakes WILL happen, just have to make sure you learn and make the needed adjustments so that they don't happen again.
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I was looking the burn rate on true blue. about the same as wsf or universal. I would use those instead because more load data is available.
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It's not much help, but your load was okay.
The case blew out where it wasn't supported by the barrel. You may have had a marginal case that was just enough thinner than the rest, but would have been acceptable in another firearm. The cartridge case is part of the firearm. It provides the gas seal. The case depends on the chamber for support to limit the strain induced by internal pressure; the chamber does this by limiting the radial expansion of the case. A case has its greatest strength in the case head and case body nearest the case. The trade off is the maximum permissible strain is very low, much lower than permissible at the case mouth where the material is annealed or only partly work hardened. Modern cases have a little extra thickness available in the body just above the extractor groove, and the strength is proportionally greater there, so a little indiscretion in the degree of case support at that location is acceptable. When the case is unsupported in the region of constant (minimum) thickness past that extra thickness, the case can only contain the internal pressure while the stars remain aligned just right. Glock goes well beyond intelligent manageable unconservative design in their barrels that causes their customers to accept risk that is not warranted nor manageable. |
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Feed-ramp blow-out? As said before, weak case, and a non-fully supported chamber. Correct me if I'm wrong.
I had the same problem. Thank god I only had a broken extractor. |
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I still have to say it was more than just a case support issue because of the missing primer. I think it was an overcharged round. I could be wrong but that's my theory.
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Quoted: I still have to say it was more than just a case support issue because of the missing primer. I think it was an overcharged round. I could be wrong but that's my theory. Mine was also missing the primer. When you've got all that gas escaping to the rear rather than forward at a faster rate, it'd have enough force to push out a primer. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
I still have to say it was more than just a case support issue because of the missing primer. I think it was an overcharged round. I could be wrong but that's my theory. Mine was also missing the primer. When you've got all that gas escaping to the rear rather than forward at a faster rate, it'd have enough force to push out a primer. Was yours with reloads or factory ammo? |
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Quoted: Reloads.Quoted: Quoted: I still have to say it was more than just a case support issue because of the missing primer. I think it was an overcharged round. I could be wrong but that's my theory. Mine was also missing the primer. When you've got all that gas escaping to the rear rather than forward at a faster rate, it'd have enough force to push out a primer. Was yours with reloads or factory ammo? |
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Anyone else noticed that a lot of reload kabooms in Glocks seem to occur on Remington brass? I know not all of them are, but I would say at least 75% of the incidents I have read about seem to use Remington.
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Quoted:
My simple question, and I hesitate to ask it for fear of derailing the thread, is why is it always a .40 and a glock combo? Thats a serious question I would like answered some day. Several reasons. It's the cartridge design as well as the Weapon design, though they are related: 1) In designing the .40 S&W had to make a lot of compromises. They wanted to duplicate the 180 grain FBI "lite" load. They also wanted the final cartridge to fit in a 9mm size frame. Well they just barely made it. Most .40 ammo has a flat nose or truncated cone profile because a 180 grain round nose wouldn't fit in the design envelope. So you end up with a short case without a lot of space in it. Pressure in straight waled cases can be very dependent on seating depth, or rather the volume left in the case after the bullet is seated. Note that even in a standard load, a .40 S&W is a fairly high pressure cartridge. 2) The .40 fits in a 9mm frame, but just barely. In order to enhance reliability Glock decided to use a barrel with a bit less support than other folks might have decided to use. THis enhances feeding. However, when a case fails it blows out like in the pictures above. BTW it's not Just "always a .40 and Glock Combo". The majority of these are Glock +.40 +180 grain ammo. Both reloads and factory. It's a result of all the little compromises adding up the wrong way. Also part of the reason you see so many is simply selection bias. The Boeing 737 has crashed more than any other commercial jet aircraft, but it's safety rate is very good. They crash more often simply because Boeing has built so many of them. Same thing. Glock has built so many guns that you should expect to see quite a few K'boom compared to other manufacturers. I have a couple .40's (not Glocks, but that's because I hate the grip angle) but I don't reload 180 grain bullets for any of them. I stick to 165s. Now maybe I am being overly cautious, but there is certainly an extra margin of safety if you use 155s or 165s. As for what the original poster did wrong: His load of 6.5 grains appears to be reasonable, if on the warm side. Using the theory that plated should use lead data, Lyman shows 6.3 - 7.0 for a 175 Lead TC in two different moulds. So his load appears OK. Plus he had worked up to this earlier. Also, Ramshot shows 6.3-7.0 for a Hornady Jacketed 180, so under the "use lighter jacketed data" theory he's also ok. He was using a Lee press, and say what you will about Lee's equipment, but their powder dispensers are very consistent, so I'm willing to rule out the measure dropping high or low as long as it was set right. Now I don't know how True Blue behaves and if it gets spiky wrt case volume. I've never used it, and in fact I've never even SEEN any of Ramshot's pistol powders locally. I'd be happy to try them. But noone seems to carry them in the Phoenix area. My guess, and I stress guess, is that the OP had a bit of bullet setback, and this was just enough to kick a marginal case over the edge. The case then failed at the unsupported region. |
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Quoted:
As for the powder that does not allow a double charge, and can be used with lead, FMJ or plated, can anyone recommend one? Possibly H. Universal. It's fairly low density. It will overflow a .45 case at max charge if you double charge it, though not at a more conservative load. Don't know if it will overflow a .40. Obviously being in AK you are going to have even worse problems getting components than the rest of us, but H. Univ. has a lot of applications. |
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