First off, the loads listed below will be fired only in a Ruger SP101 .357 revolver..



I just started loading for my .357, using 22gr of 296, which is what Winchester has listed as their starting load for a 125gr bullet. Wolf magnum primers will be used. ETA> this load has already been tested in the gun above, and no signs of excessive pressure were noted.



Was wanting to load up some cast-off .38 brass that I had laying around, using the same bullet (Rem 125gr JHP) and powder. Unfortunately, have not been able to find any published .38 load data for this powder. These will just be for casual plinking at short range, BTW.



Curiously, Lee says that the max (.357)loading for this powder is 18.5grs, but that is another topic...



Does the forum think that it would be safe for me to load up this .38 brass (marked 38+P) using something along the lines of 19grs of WW296? Crazy?



Seems like it ought to be just fine for a safe plinking load, but maybe I'm missing something?

Speer #10 lists 11.9 grs of H110 for a 125 gr jacketed bullet.

I would suggest ,................buy a different powder.

Do not load 38 cases to 357 pressures.

10 years from now you give what you thought/forgot were 38 special loads to someone else and they promptly blow up a gun or worse.

The .357 brass itself is stronger than the .38 brass, even if the gun itself is safe for the pressures.  

I have a Speer manual with some .38 Spl loads for 296.  Probably not what you are looking for, though.  The loads are fairly mild.  A higher pressure load would work better, but would exceed SAMMI pressures for .38 Spl +p.

.38 Spl brass is plenty strong, that's not the problem.  Your SP101 is plenty strong, but there are a lot of .38s out there that aren't.

The 18.5 grain load you mention is what Winchester used to recommend, back in the 80s.  It is accurate, I used to shoot a lot at that level.

I haven't run your 19 grain load though Quickload, but I do believe it would be a bit too stout for a .38.

Thanks for the replies, all.



Googling around brought up such comments as "NEVER use 296 in a .38; squib city!"

I would recommend you buy some W231 if ya want to stay with Win powder.

+100 on the W231, it is far more appropriate for .38 SPL loads than W296.  W231 also works great in 9mm and .380 too!

+1 for the W231

The loads listed in my old Speer manual would probably be squib city.  I don't know for sure, because I never tried them in .38 Special.  I did try some in .45 Colt one time, on a dare.  I did experience a squib.  Winchester does not recommend 296 to be loaded at these low levels just for this reason.  Apparently, when the Speer manual was written, this was not well understood.

I have used Power Pistol to make some relatively potent .38 +p loads that were still within SAAMI pressures, (at least according to Alliant's website).  It is kind of flashy, but will give good results.  Some still load to the old .38-44 levels, and they usually use heavier bullets and 2400.  

I run 14.0grn H110, 158grn Zero JSP bullets, and CCI 550 (SPM) primers in .38spl cases loaded long at 1.500" OAL with a medium crimp for use in my 92 Rossi levergun only with great results.  Before I loaded these I asked a member who had Quickload to run an estimate of the max psi this load would reach and he came back with 22,200psi which is over max 38spl+P load's max SAAMI pressure of 19,000psi but far below the 35,000psi rated .357mag levergun.  I tested a batch of old .38spl cases through 10 handloading cycles to see how the brass would hold up to the strain.  Two old nickle plated cases of the 25 cases tested failed on the 10th cycle.
The failed cases were part of the '10 of 25' (5 brass and 5 nickel plated) that I selected because they looked beat up and I wanted to see how old, well used cases would hold up.  As I said, they lasted to the 10th handloading before failure.  Before I started, I used the paperclip test on all of the cases and detected a thinning in the '10 of 25' cases about ¼" up from the rim (the area that finally did fail).  Because a .38spl case failure is not damaging in a levergun (you don't even know it until you cycle it and the rear ¼" of the case flips out) and all I've had to do is let the barrel cool and the remaining brass 'cylinder' dropped out of the chamber with no damage to the chamber so I felt comfortable using fresh .38spl cases with this +P+ load for up to 7 handloads.
I picked this load based upon the following case air space comparison between the .38spl and .357mag loaded to the stated OALs and powder charge volumes to try to avoid any chance for a squib load in the .38spl.  As you can see, this .38spl load results in roughly the same powder volume vs airspace volume as the .357mag load so I believe the chance of squib loads using a magnum primer is not an issue.  Since then, I've shot some 3,700rds with great results, no squibs, and
no discernible case thinning when sticking with my case handload limit.





 



 


 

 





 



 


 

 





 



 


 

 





 



 


 

 





 



 


 

 





 



 


 

 










 



 


 

 





 



 


 

 

				.357mag	.38spl	Delta
		Case  OAL		1.275	1.150	0.125
		Bullet  OAL		0.640	0.640	0.000
		Round  OAL		1.580	1.500	0.080
		Bullet  Depth		0.305	0.350	(0.045)
		Case  Airspace		0.970	0.800	0.170
		Powder  Volume		16.700	14.000	0.838%
		Airspace  Volume		0.970	0.800	0.825%

This is my test using my rifle and my components at my altitude and I don't recommend this for anyone else, especially in a pistol, whatever brand it may be.
I'd like to ask grendelbane a favor if he would.  
Would you please run the following through your Quickload to verify the max PSI number I was given before and post the results here?  Could you please also use the program to compare load density between the .38spl case load below and the .357mag case load below to verify my analysis above?
.38spl+P+ Custom load only for my Rossi M92s:  
14.0grn H110, 158grn Zero JSP bullets, and CCI 550 (SPM) primers in .38spl cases loaded long at 1.500" OAL with a medium crimp.
.357mag Hodgdon Max load:  
16.7grn H110, 158grn Zero JSP bullets, and CCI 550 (SPM) primers in .357mag cases loaded long at 1.580" OAL with a medium crimp.





Also, if it's not too much trouble, could you also run the .38spl+P+ load at an OAL of 1.480" and 1.460" as I'm courious how the max pressure will climb as the round is shortened to .38spl length.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
 

Is the term "squib" being bandied about here referring to the old .38 SPL light charge bugaboo?  This is where too light a charge either fails to ignite, fails to fully burn, or causes a catastrophic failure (the last has, to my knowledge never really been documented, just talked about).  I was taught about three ways to avoid this that SHOULD be safe if properly performed...  BUT-these techniques were always for extra light loads with fast powders, like Bullseye, NOT for powders that were too hot for the .38 SPL.

However, there are a lot of advantages to using a powder that comes close to filling the available space, while simply "using what's on hand" is really not an advantage at all.

I'm using 'squib' in the sense that H110 is one of those powders that has a rep for being hard to light and inconsistent or incomplete burn if not a full charge so the pressure builds up and the powder heats.  That's why I was interested in the powder vol vs case airspace volume comparison as a simple load density comparison.  My request for the Quickload data is to verify that my assumptions are close vs finding out I've been fooling myself.

I was more responding to the earlier posts mentioning "squib-city."

H110 isn't terribly bulky, but it's never been a problem for me to get lit.  I use it in .30 carbine loads.

Zero bullets are not in the database, so I substituted Speer 158 grain JSP.  This is a problem with Quickload, as these two bullets are not identical, though they are close.  Quickload says that the Speer bullet is 0.630" long.  Likewise, I can not specify a specific primer, or a crimp.  (There is an input for "shot start initiation pressure", which would include crimp, but I used the default value).

QL says max pressure is 18038 psi.  This produces 1490 FPS fromf a 20 " barrel.  (Not sure of the barrel length on the Rossi, my .45 Colt is 20").  81.3% load density.



QL says 32401 PSI for 1798 FPS.   Loading density is 99.4%, which helps to explain why that is a max load.

More to follow.  Hope this helps.

I decided to check the op's suggested load of 19 grains.  I must admit to being surprised at the fact that QL says it will only generate 25641 PSI.  (Once again, I had to substitute bullets, as the Remington bullet was not in the database).

This pressure level probably wouldn't be a problem for a Ruger, but is definitely over SAAMI maximum, and would be too much for many .38 revolvers out there.  I would hate to set it off in a Charter Arms, or an old airweight Smith.  I don't even want to think about some of the zink frame Saturday Night Specials that used to be sold not that many years ago.

Remember, QL is software, it is a guide, not to be taken as gospel.  

Many variables are involved.  Notice how many times I substituted bullets.  No provision is made for different primers, which are definitely going to influence pressures.

Take everything with a grain of salt.

Mundo Nulla Fides!

Could you re-do that number?  That's almost 17,500 MPH...  

Thanks for catching that.  Its a wonder I didn't say CPI, since I have been studying the consumer price index this week.

At least I did warn every one at the bottom of that post.  

QL actually said PSI, not FPS.  

PSI, not FPS, not CUP.

And definitely not GDP, or CPI, or PBI.

Thanks so much grendelbane, that information is great!  





My chrono clocked a 10rd average at 1496fps out of my 20" carbine with that 38spl+P+ load so that correlates very closely to the predicted data in Quickloads. In addition, my 357mag loads correlate to your your 1798fps in a 20" very well too as I chrono'd 1789fps out of my 20" carbine and 1822fps out of the longer 24" rifle.
I'd really like to know what the pressure looks like with the 1.480" and 1.460" OALs too.  It would be interesting to see the predicted max psi increases especially now that I have data that says that I'm not over stressing the 38spl brass as 38spl+P SAAMI specs are at 18,500psi.  
I also found out that all 38spl+P brass is the same as regular 38spl brass, it's just marked with the +P so that shooters will know what is excessive for their 38spl rated pistols and rifles.
I love the internet!!  With just a few keystrokes we can tap into the collective wisdom and information of thousands of handloaders.  Life is absolutely great!!!  
Thanks again grendelbane for the information you already have provided and hopefully, for the additional information on 1.480" and 1.460" OAL to come.


 
 
 
 

I think I've solved my dilemna...

I experimented with wax loads in .38 a long time ago.  It's strongly advised that you enlarge the flash holes, as dryflash notes.  Primers back out a little in many "live" loads, but the recoil of the case back against the revolver's recoil plate pushes the primer back in.  There's really no recoil in a wax (or plastic) load, so there's nothing to re-seat the primer and a couple of fired, high primers will bind a revolver up tight!  It's also often advised to use magnum pistol primers for a little extra "oomph."  MV is typically pretty low in a .38, and any extra help here will help keep POI and POA closer together.

Oh, and I think it's a LOT louder than a cap gun!  A LOT!  Wear hearing protection when using these loads.

One more thing: WAX BULLET LOADS ARE NOT TOYS!!!  THEY ARE DANGEROUS AND CAN CAUSE SERIOUS INJURY, ESPECIALLY TO THE FACE AND EYES.  Use all standard gun safety practices when using these loads, and you'll be fine-as dryflash notes, carpeting is all the "backstop" you need for the wax, but you do need to keep that muzzle under control and observe your target carefully before use.

Before Cowboy Action Shooting, fast draw exhibitors used wax loads.  Plenty of them recommended heavy boots and/or metal shoe covers when practicing fast draws.  Be safe.

At 1.480", the 14 grain load will produce 21591 PSI for 1540 FPS.

At 1.460", 22958 PSI for 1557 FPS.

Both loads are above SAAMI pressure specs, as indicated by the red on the QL data.

As for the wax bullets, they are fun.  Used to shoot mice with them.  Yes, they can do quite a bit of damage at close range.

I haven't spent much time with H110/W296, so I can't comment on that beyond saying I think it's probably not the best choice even for 38-44 loads. Somewhere or other, I have a few articles on duplicating original 38-44 loads, but I don't recall either of those powders being listed.

The reason for my use of H110 in this case is simple, I have a boatload of it on hand.  It works well for my specific use, is accurate, and produces good velocities with low SDs (under 10) when I set the OAL to 1.460".

In regards to the wax .38 loads, they did indeed lock my cylinder up on every shot.  I enlarged the flash holes on subsequent loads with an electric drill.  Will see how that works out...



The noise seemed to vary depending upon how much wax I had put into each piece of brass.  With only about half an inch of wax, the report was quite mild and hearing safe.  When filled pretty much full, it was LOUD!  Not hearing safe.



Was actually surprised at how much oomph they had.  Definately not something to do recklessly.





In regards to my selection of WW296 for my .357 loads–– I got that advice right here on this forum when I enquired about a suitable snubby .357 load perhaps a year ago.  The fireball that that produced at the range was quite....noticeable.  This was at the minimum recommended starting load.