I have been looking at NFA friendly ranges and I am discovering there are not many around.  I am starting to think that as PA residents that we should start considering the purchase of some land that would allow us to shoot most anything including the big boomers, NFA Machineguns, and our semi rifles.

What I am curious of is just how expensive would it be to buy up some old coal strip mine in some valley where we could ensure that enough land was owned to prevent future issues as so many clubs face these days.

Obviously, things are only going to get worse and there are huge pieces of land that are undesirable for most but they would work great for a large rifle range...

Any idea on how such a project could be started?  I wonder if a LLC could be established and sell shares in the corp to purchase the land.  From there, I wonder about permits and other details.  

I think it would be great to have something in the center of the state so that guys like me in the Philli area could meet those from the other end of the state and we could all have a place to call home.  

Anybody else think this is a worthy idea?  Anybody have an idea how a really large club could get started as with the weapons we are talking about we would want a huge area...  An area next to a state forest would also be great...

Oh well, back to work but I had to get this topic out as I have looked at this for some time and I think the only way to make this work is if a number of people were to do it together!

QB,

Thats a good idea! When all is said and done, I don't think the amount of money would be an issue as much as approval from DEP as to the build up of "lead" in the earth and water.

Any lawyers amongst us?

John

The environmental issues are the same as gun clubs that are already in existence. If it's an old coal strip mine then issues have been there before.

First, find a suitable location and look at the local laws before purchasing.

Renting would not be good, you'd have to buy the land. Selling stock and/or memberships would generate revenue for such a venture.

I've been looking for such a place. I don't have any NFA guns but I figure if you can shoot NFA's then you can fast fire AR's.

Chiming in because I am working HARD on moving
to PA soon.  

I would drive 50 miles on a regular basis to
utilize such a range , if the membership /
startup fees were reasonable.

I bet the people to ask are the paying members
of KNOB CREEK CLUB - they did it.

QB sounds like a great idea . Dragracer Art had suggested something like this a few months back , I forget what happen with it if anything at all did happen. I'm sure with all the knowledgeable members among us we can come up with some great ideas.

Your idea of something centrally located in the state would be the best bet. 2 huge expenses would be the land purchase expense and insurance expenses. I think Insurances would be the worse of the two.

Let's see what kind of ideas others come up with and go from there.

Jerry

Not tring to piss on anybody's parade, but I think a major problem with this idea is that if the range is centrally located in the state then most people will live to far away from it to be able to use it enough to justify spending alot of money on it.

If it is gonna take more then an hour and a half to drive there then it doesn't make sense to do it on a daytrip, you are gonna want to campout or something and make a weekend out of it. When you factor that in alot of people would only have the time to use the place maybe a half dozen times a year.

Quoted: Not tring to piss on anybody's parade, but I think a major problem with this idea is that if the range is centrally located in the state then most people will live to far away from it to be able to use it enough to justify spending alot of money on it. If it is gonna take more then an hour and a half to drive there then it doesn't make sense to do it on a daytrip, you are gonna want to campout or something and make a weekend out of it. When you factor that in alot of people would only have the time to use the place maybe a half dozen times a year.

PGM,

I'm in Ridley, and, if I could find a place outdoors where other class 3's may be shooting on any given weekend, it would be worth the drive. Shooting my MG in an area that is "ok" to shoot in, but not a bonafied shooting area gives me the willy's.

QB, .... what county were you thinking of?

John

I appreciate the advise and oppinions and I really don't know where such a range could be built.  I live in Chester County minutes from Valley Forge and let's be honest in my part of the state I don't think it would be possible to buy up a large enough piece of land in a rural enough area to do this.

When I was originally looking, I thought the various coal areas up 81 in Schuylkill County.  It would be about a 2-hr drive from my own house but in that area there are huge tracts of land that really would work out for such a purpose.  Also, there are state forest lands in that area where such a range could border which would provide additional assurance against future development and soccer moms from complaining.

In Western PA there are quite a few places where such a project may be attempted so perhaps those in Western PA would like a place of their own and we should focus on a place somewhere East of Harrisburg.  I just look at all the development and I am at a loss for just where such a place could be established.  Hell, I would be willing to make the trip out west of Harrisburg every so often to get to shoot some of my toys as well if that were my only option.

I don't think this is a project that could be done in weeks, or months, and may take a couple years.  This is just something that I have been looking at and I am looking for some oppinions as to if it's a project we should try.  From the advise we have above, I think there are others that are interested and we just need some constructive ideas to get the ball moving.

Oh yea, if you were an owner of a machinegun and you tried to find a local range to shoot you would appreciate why this is something that you would be willing to drive 2, 3, or 4-hrs to do...  it's drive or you just don't get to shoot!  In the future, things are only going to get worse and that is the basis for me bringing up the idea.

A site in the east and one in the west sounds like a much better idea.

Quarterbore, I now see your point about the MGs.

There is/was club in Bloomsburg in Columbia County:
www.famoinc.com/pc3csmgindex.html

But their competitions died in 2001.  I don’t know if they are still active in Class III shooting.
But for a Class III Club/range in Schuylkill County sounds like a pretty good idea.  There used to all of those dumps from the coal mines.  To use the towns from where I wert young…

Frackville is right off Interstate 81 and State 61.  But as because of that Federal Prison so we can rule that off pretty fast.  Thinking of the area south to Pottsville, but I can’t think of any really good areas.  This includes Schuylkill Haven.
But taking 61 north of Frackville is reasonably decent.
Just north of the town is Gilberton.  Go either left or right of 61 and we might find something.
Go a bit farther and before you get to Shenandoah there is, I think, Turkey Run.  It’s not even on the map I’m using from work.  Get the town involved with the regs and such…Have the towns own the range but lease the range(s) to us. But Turkey Run is maybe too small.
And finally Shenandoah itself.  East and west of the town there might be something.
What else in Schuylkill County might be usable, I don’t know and I pass.

btt

I'd guess that:

1. People who can afford Class 3 are more likely to live near urban areas.

2. People who live in the deep rural areas are more likely to have a place to shoot already.

It would be good to have a camping area and minimal facilities onsite though, for those willing to drive longer distances.

jafager

We in the Survival Forum ae actively looking for land in PA for a FA range and room to train.   Join us in the survival chat room on Sunday evening, June 20th.   There is land available, we just need to manpower and money.  Ops

I am the FAMO, Inc. and was PC3C that Gigglesmith mentioned above so I guess I'll chime in.

The range that PC3C was holding shoots on was small and a limited arrangement was brokered between the club and the local COP for limited use of the range with pistol caliber FA.  The black powder shooters threw a fit but all went reasonably well for the duration of the competitions that I / PC3C held there.  

I have a current agreement with another club now in the Poconos that lets me / FAMO, Inc. do machine gun rentals there by appointment.

I was in on the organizational arrangements that DragRacerArt and a group of about a dozen other NFA guys were trying to get going with a club near Reading but two of the locals threw a fit and lied in a few letters to the editor about what we were trying to do and the whole project went South.

There used to be a range around Frackville called Mountain Top Sportsman's Assoc. that welcomed C3 but the range was closed because a mining operation was getting too close to the back side of the range and a few bouncers over the berm shut the thing down.

The trouble with setting up a range in the strippings in coal country is that tracer and API tend to get the coal ignighted and fires are real easy to start.  Some burn into the ground, following the coal vein.  The mine fire under Centralia has been burning for years.

It's a good idea but it would have to be a real big piece of land right up against a ridge line.

Mario
Force Asset Management Options, Inc.
www.famoinc.com    
www.machinegunholiday.com  

Starting a range/club from scratch is the ONLY answer.

Two times now, I've seen full-auto friendly clubs change the MG policy after "Word got out" that they allowed full-auto.
It took 1 year for Hamburg Rifle & Pistol to do away with MG's alltogether. They also voted out all the high ranking officials of the club that were full auto friendly.

Millcreek Rod & Gun only lasted a few months... Same deal there... When the Elmer Fudd's of the club realized that nearly 50% of the club membership had MG's, they voted to ban them.

These clubs need to be taken over from the inside out, or a whole new club needs to be established.

It really shouldn't be that complicated to do. Deer hunters do it all the time when they pool their resources to buy land and build a hunting camp.
Personally, I'd almost rather see a group of us build a lodge or cabin, that also has range facilities. That way, it could be a "time-share" or family oriented facility when not being used for dumping lead downrange...Those of us that hunt, can also use it during hunting season...

You get 10 guys that each contribute $10k, and you have lots of options...

So why are they against full auto? And what do they think about fast firing semi-autos?

I don't own any MG's but I wouldn't ban the use of them on any range. They have a right to shoot just like the rest of us.

Despicable!

Quoted: So why are they against full auto? And what do they think about fast firing semi-autos? I don't own any MG's but I wouldn't ban the use of them on any range. They have a right to shoot just like the rest of us. Despicable!

If I had to guess, I'd say it has alot to do with the rapid (sub)urban sprawl in SE PA. "Philly" reaching damn near to Reading nowadays, and the left-leaning folks that seem to be associated with such coming along with it.    

Before dropping $400K+ on a 3-4BR house on a postage stamp-sized lot, you'd think people would check for gun clubs, airports, railroads, and other noise-generating facilities, but for the most part that doesn't seem to be the case.   Then they don't seem shy about complaining, despite the fact that their house has only been there 6 months and the club 60 years.   Most clubs probably want to avoid perceived problems with their new neighbors by banning full auto, rapid fire semi, having capacity requirements, etc., not fully understanding that those folks probably won't be happy until the club is shut down for good.    

Now... in some cases I'd say it is partly the club's fault for poor planning.  When most of these places were created in SE PA, I don't think anyone would ever have thought the area would be this crowded - as such, they didn't worry about buying much buffer space.    I belong to one local club where I could probably toss a rock at the nearest house from the firing line on their 100yd range.

Many ranges in my area will allow you to use anything you want...  They just don't let you load more then 2 or 3 rds in a magazine and full autos are quite forbidden.  The problem is that as new houses and developments are built that there becomes too much risk for clubs to allow these rifles.  In some cases it is the insurance policy and others it is because of the damage a full auto or rapid fire semiauto can do to backboards and range facilities especially if you get somebody that lacks control!

I am still interested in doing something like this and instead of 10 guys donating 10K I would rather have 100 guys or more willing to contribute 1K.

I'd definately be interested in something like this. A couple of hours drive each way would be acceptable, could go farther if there was at least some facilities (a well and an outhouse should go a long way for camping).

I am still looking in the Central PA area.  Ops