Attempted Robbery In Tacoma. Armed citizen took action.

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Attempted Robbery In Tacoma. Armed citizen took action.

Posted: 9/29/2005 3:15:33 PM EDT

www.komotv.com/stories/39501.htm

Attempted Robbery Leads To Shooting In Tacoma

September 29, 2005

By KOMO Staff

TACOMA - A shooting during an attempted robbery at a Tacoma auto store has sent two people to the hospital.

Police say a clerk at the Shucks Auto Supply near 72nd and Portland streets spotted and then confronted a man putting gas into a small motorcycle in their display window.

But the man told the clerk he was robbing the store anyway, and then pulled a gun.

However, another customer in the store was armed, and he pulled his own gun, yelling at the suspect to drop his weapon.

At some point, shots were then fired. Exact details are still sketchy, but the suspect ended up getting hit, as did a nearby store clerk.

The two wounded were taken to the hospital. Initial reports are that the clerk's wound was minor, but the suspect's wound was more serious. The customer who pulled the gun on the suspect was not injured.

The brother of the customer who had his own gun said the situation must have become dire.

"The suspect must have done something to have it coming because Joe wouldn’t have gotten involved and risked somebody else's life if it wasn't necessary," said Karl Phillips.

Police are still investigating.

Posted: 9/29/2005 3:28:12 PM EDT

[#1]

Joe?

who let him off the Island?

Posted: 9/29/2005 4:30:23 PM EDT

[#2]

Quoted:
www.komotv.com/stories/39501.htm

Attempted Robbery Leads To Shooting In Tacoma

September 29, 2005

By KOMO Staff

TACOMA - A shooting during an attempted robbery at a Tacoma auto store has sent two people to the hospital.

Police say a clerk at the Shucks Auto Supply near 72nd and Portland streets spotted and then confronted a man putting gas into a small motorcycle in their display window.

But the man told the clerk he was robbing the store anyway, and then pulled a gun.

However, another customer in the store was armed, and he pulled his own gun, yelling at the suspect to drop his weapon.

At some point, shots were then fired. Exact details are still sketchy, but the suspect ended up getting hit, as did a nearby store clerk.

The two wounded were taken to the hospital. Initial reports are that the clerk's wound was minor, but the suspect's wound was more serious. The customer who pulled the gun on the suspect was not injured.

The brother of the customer who had his own gun said the situation must have become dire.

"The suspect must have done something to have it coming because Joe wouldn’t have gotten involved and risked somebody else's life if it wasn't necessary," said Karl Phillips.

Police are still investigating.

ARFCOMMer?

Posted: 9/29/2005 4:42:56 PM EDT

[#3]

Damm.

Posted: 9/29/2005 6:22:52 PM EDT

[#4]

The situation we all worry about.

Posted: 9/29/2005 6:42:15 PM EDT

[#5]

Was he gonna use the motorcycle as a getaway vehicle?

Good thing for Joe, things coulda been much worse.

Posted: 9/29/2005 7:17:36 PM EDT

[#6]

love it when the bad guy gets the worst....

Posted: 9/29/2005 7:29:41 PM EDT

[#7]

The outcome doesn't sound too bad so far, but "drop your weapon" is something police say. BANG BANG BANG is all someone defending their life should say.

Posted: 9/29/2005 10:53:38 PM EDT

[#8]

should always verbalize the subject (get your mind out of the gutter 1GR) not for his sake but for the sake of the witnesses, it's a lot easier to convince a jury that you believed the decedant had a weapon when witnesses testify that you shouted, "Drop the weapon."

Seek cover, verbalize, shoot if your commands are not followed. Cover cover cover

Now, in a case like this robbery the shooter is going to have a hell of a time justifying the shoot unless he can prove he felt someone's life was in danger. State law allows shooting to prevent a felony committed in one's presence but actually doing so when the situation lacks the jeopardy component is a sure way to be charged a crime.

He's really screwed if his pistol comes back to the slug in the clerk.

Posted: 9/30/2005 1:06:49 AM EDT

[#9]

Can't say I wouldnt have taken the same action... I hope he isn't charged. I would have given some kind of verbal warning, but if it wasn't followed in seconds I would have just busted..., especially if he turned and pointed the gun towards me. It doesn't say whether or not the robber pointed the gun at the clerks. That would have been my deciding factor on shooting or not.

Posted: 9/30/2005 2:28:52 AM EDT

[#10]

He should have just shot the guy. He was committing a violent felony and threatening a life at the time. He also needs to work on his marksmanship a little bit.

Posted: 9/30/2005 3:10:00 AM EDT

[#11]

is it Monday morning already?

Posted: 9/30/2005 6:26:24 AM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
should always verbalize the subject (get your mind out of the gutter 1GR) not for his sake but for the sake of the witnesses, it's a lot easier to convince a jury that you believed the decedant had a weapon when witnesses testify that you shouted, "Drop the weapon."

Seek cover, verbalize, shoot if your commands are not followed. Cover cover cover

Now, in a case like this robbery the shooter is going to have a hell of a time justifying the shoot unless he can prove he felt someone's life was in danger. State law allows shooting to prevent a felony committed in one's presence but actually doing so when the situation lacks the jeopardy component is a sure way to be charged a crime.

He's really screwed if his pistol comes back to the slug in the clerk.

The first part sounds great if you are current or former LE, but I certainly wouldn't want a jury thinking I'm a wannabe cowboy playing cops and robbers. If the firearm was pulled when a clerk questioned him then you have your witness.

Posted: 9/30/2005 11:10:33 AM EDT

[#13]

I've always debated this in my head too. I'm pretty much of the opinion that you should verbalize but the instant the person makes any movement not consistant with dropping their weapon you should fire. I agree with taking cover. Unfortunately, most places I been in 'cover' is pretty non-existant. Unless you believe the movies. Bad situation.

Since we're on the subject, I train to shot center mass. But in this situation with the goblin pointing a gun at an unarmed victim would an unannounced aimed headshot be in order?

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:02:52 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
is it Monday morning already?

The did OK, I won't argue that he didn't. But we all need to learn from what happened. If they have a gun pointed at someone, it is best not to say a word, just put one in the box. If you have the legal right to press on someone, you don't need to say a word.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:04:36 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:
But in this situation with the goblin pointing a gun at an unarmed victim would an unannounced aimed headshot be in order?

That's ho I was taught. But then I as taught by the former members of the LAPD and NYPD stakeout squads, and they always catch flak for their methods.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:08:19 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Quoted:
is it Monday morning already?

The did OK, I won't argue that he didn't. But we all need to learn from what happened. If they have a gun pointed at someone, it is best not to say a word, just put one in the box. If you have the legal right to press on someone, you don't need to say a word.

If I were you, I would at least tell the guy to drop the gun, You may beat the State charges, but there is still the Civil Suit that could/will follow, cuz you shot poor little Tony who was strung out on meth, (but doing a real good job with his rehab, he only missed 6 meetings in the last 8 weeks) and he was just looking for a little extra money to feed his 4 baby's (from 4 different mothers.).

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:13:02 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
is it Monday morning already?

The did OK, I won't argue that he didn't. But we all need to learn from what happened. If they have a gun pointed at someone, it is best not to say a word, just put one in the box. If you have the legal right to press on someone, you don't need to say a word.

If I were you, I would at least tell the guy to drop the gun, You may beat the State charges, but there is still the Civil Suit that could/will follow, cuz you shot poor little Tony who was strung out on meth, (but doing a real good job with his rehab, he only missed 6 meetings in the last 8 weeks) and he was just looking for a little extra money to feed his 4 baby's (from 4 different mothers.).

Priorites (Another board member taught me this):
1) Stay out of a coffin
2) Stay out of jail
3) Stay out of civil court

All in all, there will be a civil action. I just wan't all the good guys to live to testify. A dead witness, or me getting shot, is inferior to me losing my money.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:13:25 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
Quoted:
But in this situation with the goblin pointing a gun at an unarmed victim would an unannounced aimed headshot be in order?

That's ho I was taught. But then I as taught by the former members of the LAPD and NYPD stakeout squads, and they always catch flak for their methods.

I would love for you to have to tell a jury that you were taught by former members of LAPD and NYPD stakeout squads to keep quiet and take headshots.

Posted: 9/30/2005 12:18:16 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Priorites (Another board member taught me this):
1) Stay out of a coffin
2) Stay out of jail
3) Stay out of civil court

Good advise!...

But your Number 1 should read.. If possible Stay out of the situation in the first place.

Posted: 9/30/2005 1:46:58 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
But in this situation with the goblin pointing a gun at an unarmed victim would an unannounced aimed headshot be in order?

That's ho I was taught. But then I as taught by the former members of the LAPD and NYPD stakeout squads, and they always catch flak for their methods.

I would love for you to have to tell a jury that you were taught by former members of LAPD and NYPD stakeout squads to keep quiet and take headshots.

Why, you think they didn't tell me that?

Yes, avoiding the situation entirely would be a good thing. However, if the armed citizen had placed a single round in the head of the robber, there would have been no exchange of gunfire and no wounded employee. A Denver PD SWAT instructor, and several other former cops issued the same advice as well. One of their pet peaves is too much verbalizing. All to often, they said, people handed the initiative over to the attacker on the spot, by trying to talk when the attacker was done with negotiating and had moved on to getting his way through violence.

Posted: 9/30/2005 7:38:53 PM EDT

[#21]

I would find myself taking a head shot if the guy didn't immediately put down his weapon after my verbal command.
A felony in progress is enough for me to draw my weapon and give verbal commands (imo.) I know other members will disagree but thats what makes america great, right?

Although I see it like this: If you gave the SOB an unequivocal command to put the weapon down and he/she does not comply (provided there is an imminent threat here...stealing a pack of bubble gum doesn't count) I truly believe you have the right to take action. The point people miss in the media is the nut had a loaded firearm pointed at a store clerk. The clerk didn't die (as far as we know) but he could have. For all we know the law abiding citizen with the firearm saved the clerks life. Yeah, the armed citizen shot him, yeah we can argue his method till sundown, but bare in mind the guy pointing the gun at the clerk was in the middle of committing a very serious class A felony in this state.

RCW 9A.56.200
(1) A person is guilty of robbery in the first degree if:
(i) Is armed with a deadly weapon; or
(ii) Displays what appears to be a firearm or other deadly weapon;

Bear in mind Class A = worst you can get
Thats the same as homicide in this state.

my $0.50

-Rob

Posted: 9/30/2005 7:54:00 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:

Priorites (Another board member taught me this):
1) Stay out of a coffin
2) Stay out of jail
3) Stay out of civil court

Good advise!...

But your Number 1 should read.. If possible Stay out of the situation in the first place.

Okay, new question:
You stop the robbery, bad guy dead/ severly wounded. Clerk has flesh/superficial wound. No sirens yet.
Would you stick around or beat feet? (assuming your identity is not known by any witnesses)

Posted: 9/30/2005 7:57:59 PM EDT

[#23]

I'd stick around. I wouldn't know for sure that a camera didn't capture my image.

Posted: 9/30/2005 8:05:27 PM EDT

[#24]

Stick around. Guilty people run. Innocent people try to explain their actions.

Also secure the weapons. Don't want to be walking around with a gun in your hand when the fuzz responds to an armed robbery call.

I think you were asking me. Were you asking R-32?

Posted: 9/30/2005 8:37:33 PM EDT

[#25]

Asking you, remember you're underage.
Just remember the old addage "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

Posted: 9/30/2005 8:52:53 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:
Asking you, remember you're underage.
Just remember the old addage "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"

Ah, I see where you're going with this. If I was carrying unlawfully and waxed a guy, I would still wait around. Why? Running looks guilty, and that makes a Manslaughter charge and conviction a LOT more likely, if not a murder charge. Unlawful concealed carry is a Gross Misdemeanor--up to a year, a nasty fine etc. but not a Felony and the chances of avoiding asspounding are a lot better with this route.

Not that I would be carrying, mind you...Except the knife and the flashlight

Posted: 10/1/2005 7:00:42 AM EDT

[#27]

The problem here is this ain't Texas! In Texas he'd get at least one 'Atta' boy!' award and some free beer!

Of course there's always the civil courts. I was taught in my class for concealed carry in Texas that if the BG is NOT dead he will almost always sue you in civil court and almost always win.

ETA to clarify.

Posted: 10/1/2005 9:49:20 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
He should have just shot the guy. He was committing a violent felony and threatening a life at the time. He also needs to work on his marksmanship a little bit.

When was the last time you were shot at?

Posted: 10/1/2005 4:58:34 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:
Quoted:
He should have just shot the guy. He was committing a violent felony and threatening a life at the time. He also needs to work on his marksmanship a little bit.

When was the last time you were shot at?

To clarify, I thought the clerk as shot by the CC.

Still, a solid CNS shot would have solved the problem without anyone else being hit.

Posted: 10/1/2005 10:07:16 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
The problem here is this ain't Texas! In Texas he'd get at least one 'Atta' boy!' award and some free beer!

Of course there's always the civil courts. I was taught in my class for concealed carry in Texas that if the BG is NOT dead he will almost always sue you in civil court and almost always win.

ETA to clarify.

That's why you must double tap the MF! Anything that is worth shooting once is worth shooting twice! The verbal commands are a must. When it goes to court and if the good guy didn't give a verbal command then the decedant's family's attorney will make it appear that the shooter was a cowboy looking for some action because it is possible that the bad guy would have obeyed the command if he was given a chance to do so. Right or wrong thats the way the system works.

Posted: 10/1/2005 10:08:01 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
He should have just shot the guy. He was committing a violent felony and threatening a life at the time. He also needs to work on his marksmanship a little bit.

When was the last time you were shot at?

To clarify, I thought the clerk as shot by the CC.

Still, a solid CNS shot would have solved the problem without anyone else being hit.

What I think He is trying to tell You is that that stress will affect your markmanship and that what You said is a crappy statement to make about about someone who probably was scared shitless trying to save His life

Posted: 10/1/2005 10:45:22 PM EDT

[#32]

verbalize folks, unless you're psychic, you only think you know what's going on in any given situation.

tough time explaining why you dumped someone holding a cell phone, or messing around with their friend at the auto parts place and why you didn't take reasonable steps to clarify the situation, I deal with stuff like this everyday and I am quite frequently wrong in my initial assessment of what at first appears to be a pending confrontation or potential robbery.

you get only once chance to do it right. do I expect someone to say "Drop the gun" 37 times like that cop down south? No, you tell them what you want them to do, verify the situation is what you think it is, and shoot to defend your life if necessary.

I don't care what school you attend or who taught what, this is ethics and common sense time. When you've BTDT feel free to chime in. Class doesn't cover it all.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Attempted Robbery In Tacoma. Armed citizen took action.

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