My wife and I went to the Dulles Town Center tonight to do some shopping and decided to get a bite to eat at the food court while we were there.  In full compliance with VA state law, since at least one vendor in the food court sells alcohol (the food court actually has signs up to designate where the consumption area is), I took my jacket off, ordered food and my wife and I sat down to eat our meal.  Just as we were finishing, I noticed a couple of Loudoun County Sheriffs looking at us and talking from a distance.  I told my wife, "we're about to get talkted to, so just be chill ok?"

Sure enough, one of the officers came over, pulled out one of the unused chairs and sat down at our table.  He asked me if I was LEO, to which I responded "no sir".  He said "Do you read the newspaper" and I responded "Yes sir".  He went on to tell me (in not so many words) that he thought I was stupid for open carrying in the mall and asked if I had a permit, which I do.  He said "Let me see it"  He also told me to give him my drivers license.  He was very belligerent and disrespectful through the entire conversation.  He wrote all of my information down and called in to run a check on me.  His call started, "Yeah, this is officer *****, I'm calling about the guy with the canon."  WTF, the guy with canon?  I'm carrying a 4" barrel 1911!

While this was going on, we had a conversation in which I told him that I would LOVE to be carrying concealed right now, but in compliance with VA law, I *have* to open carry to eat here because alcohol is sold in the food court"  He said "I could see if you were at a bar or something, but....and that's all I'm going to say about that." CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?!?!?!  In utter astonishment, I said, "Are you TELLING me to break the law by carrying concealed in an establishment with a license to sell alcohol?"  His response was "What I'm saying is that I'm not questioning your constitutionality, I'm questioning your judgement to open-carry in here."  When I again asked him how I should comply with the law, he said something along the lines of "concealed carry or leave your gun in the car".  Absolutely ridiculous.

During my repeated statements that I'm doing what I'm required to do to be compliant with VA state law, he several times made the statement that I could either leave, or he'd go get mall management to come and kick me out, then if I didn't leave, he'd arrest me for trespassing.  At some point during all of this two more officers came over and stood over my shoulder and asked officer ****** if he needed assistance.  My wife said "it's ok, we're leaving" and the officer over my shoulder said in his toughest voice "I wasn't talking to you I'm talking to another officer."

I mentioned that if the mall owners wanted no guns in the mall, which it is absolutely their right to decide, they were required by law to post signs indicating so at the entrances, which they have not done.  Again, he said "You want me to go get management and have them tell you to leave, and then if you don't I'll arrest you for trespassing and we can go to a different kind of court."

As we were getting up to leave, he told me "now get out of here".  I asked him again how I was supposed to comply between where we were sitting and the boundary of the food court, and he said "this conversation is over".  We threw our trash away and left, following his advice and putting my jacket on immediately.  

I'm honestly appalled at how unprofessional both of these officers were to two people sitting eating dinner, obviously not 'bad guys'.  I will be following up with the LCSO, asking for clarification on how it is I'm to comply with state law in an establishment that doesn't prohibit carry of weapons in the establishment as required by law.

What a way to ruin a night out shopping with my wife.....sheesh.

What a way to spread Christmas Holiday cheer, officer!

Gotta love cops who are afraid of inanimate objects

If you know their names or badge numbers you could complain to their department about them telling you to break the law.

Looks like the lesson here is that if there are food courts that serve alcohol in a Mall - stay away from them so you don't have to open carry and possibly get caught up in the policies of such large malls.

There are two sides to every story but in the future from a insider....... is to ask for the Officers FTO and discuss the matter with him or her

you have to realize no matter how in the right you are, they will allways winn at the street level, dont argue or resist in any way =you need to speek to the shift supervisor and make a formal complaint.

I know im gonna get a S**T storm but......

FTO, what's that?

I feel your pain. I had a run in there with the mall security about a year ago. I open carried and was approached by a security officer. I spoke to her after producing my creds we agreed that pulling my shirt over my gun was acceptable, even though it was fooling no one. She told me there was a no firearms policy for the entire mall. I asked were it was posted and she said it was posted at the customer service desk. On my way out I stopped by and asked to see it. The guy there said the marketing group had taken the sign from them weeks earlier.

I think if they want there to be a no firearms policy, they need to post it at the entrances and on there website. At the time of my incident, there website had nothing on it about that. I checked it that night.

Quoted: FTO, what's that?

Field Training Officer. Before we are released to patrol on our own, we have to have dept. specific training and show we are up to the challenge. The FTO over sees this.

FTO= Field Training Officer

Quoted: If you know their names or badge numbers you could complain to their department about them telling you to break the law. Looks like the lesson here is that if there are food courts that serve alcohol in a Mall - stay away from them so you don't have to open carry and possibly get caught up in the policies of such large malls.

Or vote with your wallet and stay the hell out of them period.   Closest I ever come to a mall is walking in sears front door and back out of it.  

Quoted: Quoted: If you know their names or badge numbers you could complain to their department about them telling you to break the law. Looks like the lesson here is that if there are food courts that serve alcohol in a Mall - stay away from them so you don't have to open carry and possibly get caught up in the policies of such large malls. Or vote with your wallet and stay the hell out of them period.   Closest I ever come to a mall is walking in sears front door and back out of it.

Yes - that's if you KNOW the mall has a no-guns policy.  For big enclosed malls where it isn't obviously posted, I just carry concealed because many have an unwritten or an obscure rule against it.  By staying concealed in large malls, I avoid it being an issue.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you know their names or badge numbers you could complain to their department about them telling you to break the law. Looks like the lesson here is that if there are food courts that serve alcohol in a Mall - stay away from them so you don't have to open carry and possibly get caught up in the policies of such large malls. Or vote with your wallet and stay the hell out of them period.   Closest I ever come to a mall is walking in sears front door and back out of it.   Yes - that's if you KNOW the mall has a no-guns policy.  For big enclosed malls where it isn't obviously posted, I just carry concealed because many have an unwritten or an obscure rule against it.  By staying concealed in large malls, I avoid it being an issue.

I just apply that rule to all of them PVC.   I have yet to feel I have missed anything by not going in them posted or not.    

I do apply the No Guns-No Money to other places I do frequent.   A couple of years ago I was buying a diamond for the better 99% for our tenth.   Like lots of folks I drove down to Jareds on the west end of Richmond after seeing their commercials.   I made it to their door and saw the posted sign.  We turned right around and left.   We went across the street to Capri, meet a wonderful sales lady who's husband happend to work at Degoffs and she loved to shoot K31s.   Needless to say we spent our money there.  

Quoted: There are two sides to every story but in the future from a insider....... is to ask for the Officers FTO and discuss the matter with him or her you have to realize no matter how in the right you are, they will allways winn at the street level, dont argue or resist in any way =you need to speek to the shift supervisor and make a formal complaint. I know im gonna get a S**T storm but......

There was no asking for anything with this officer.  He wanted me out.  He was pissed that I was there in the first place, and I had two options: leave or be arrested (after he went and got mall management and told them to tell me to leave so that if I didn't he could arrest me).

Just to clarify...I would have been completely ok with him coming to me if he had said "I know you're within the law, but the mall management has asked us not to allow open carry of weapons here for the comfort of the patrons.  To comply with their policies, if you're going to eat here at the mall, don't carry a weapon.  If you're not going to eat here, conceal."

At least then, I could have thanked him for his courteous service, left and expressed my displeasure with the malls policies to mall management directly.  Instead, he ran 12 pounds of bullshit over me, his backup was rude to my wife, and I left feeling like I got crapped on by a JBT.

Anyway, I have filed a report with the Sheriffs office via their website, and have done the same with the mall via their website, asking for their policies in this area.  I'm not confident that I will be satisified with the outcome, but at least I can say I didn't just do nothing.

I've NEVER had a bad encounter with a Loudoun County deputy.  It's too bad that streak had to be broken like this.

I gotta step in this one...

so now you wanted him to tell you to violate the law?  I am lost here..  In your first post, you were shocked when he suggested that exact thing to you...  and now you are saying that you would have wanted him to tell you to do what he said in more words?

For all you know it was management that had originally called.  For all you know the deputy had been told by management to get you off the property.  You have exactly one half of the story.

I have no idea how the conversation went down but it seemed that he was pretty decent in the start of your conversation.  Pulled up a chair and talked to you.  He didn't spin you around and disarm you, he didn't lay his hands on you, hell..  he didn't tase you..    Sounds like he tried to talk to you.  You seem to repeat the same line of questioning to him in your first post about what else are you to do.  I am sure at some point he got frustrated that you would not accept his response.  

I am not saying you are..  but imagine you are talking to a 4 year old about why the sky is blue
Son  --  Why is the sky blue?
Dad --  It just is.
Son  --  But why?
Dad  --  Because it is pretty
Son  --  Why?
Dad  --  I think it is something about water vapor..
Son  --  Why?
Dad  --  I have no clue
Son  --  Why not Daddy?
Dad  --  Because I don't know.
Son  --  Why?
Dad  --  .....

At what point do you just do what you need to do..  It is like a broken record.

Dad  --  Look son, Santa...

The deputy isn't going to sit there all night to go over the same question.  Accept his response or not but you need to move on.  I know you are frustrated with the law but he is a deptuy not your Congressman.

I don't agree, Longboat. I don't read it as the OP "asking" the cop for permission to carry concealed illegally. I read it as the cop overstepping his bounds in asking him to leave the property. Under what authority does the cop have to ask a private citizen to vacate a privately owned business, without said business owner's request to the officer? He has none. The officer should have done exactly what he said he would do, and which he only had the authority to do, to go to the management and have them ask the OP to leave. If he still refused to leave (which he wouldn't have), only then would the officer have just cause to make an arrest. Trespassing requires a warning and a chance for the offending party to comply. No warning = no trespassing.

I don't like the idea of an officer deciding for me where I can and cannot go.

Thats kinda my answer in my post in a nut shell, sometimes you have to realize the out come and saying less, often means more in the long run

Louden still has an elected sheriff as chief law enforcement.
Place a call and file a complaint.

Quoted: I gotta step in this one... so now you wanted him to tell you to violate the law?  I am lost here..  In your first post, you were shocked when he suggested that exact thing to you...  and now you are saying that you would have wanted him to tell you to do what he said in more words? I never expected him to tell me to violate the law, not at all.  I'm not sure what I typed that gave you that impression.  What I expected was for him to politely tell me why it was I was being ejected from the mall, the only possible valid reason being that he was enforcing the wishes of the property owner, which he did not tell me. For all you know it was management that had originally called.   That's entirely possible and if he would have just said that, I would not have said another word because I understand that property owner's rights trump concealed carry law. For all you know the deputy had been told by management to get you off the property.  You have exactly one half of the story. You're 100% correct.  A little disclosure as to why I was being ejected would have gone a long way here, do you agree?  Treating me like an irresponsible criminal was the wrong way to approach a man sitting and eating dinner with his wife. I have no idea how the conversation went down but it seemed that he was pretty decent in the start of your conversation.  Pulled up a chair and talked to you.  He didn't spin you around and disarm you, he didn't lay his hands on you, hell..  he didn't tase you..    Sounds like he tried to talk to you.  You seem to repeat the same line of questioning to him in your first post about what else are you to do.  I am sure at some point he got frustrated that you would not accept his response.   The start of the conversation was not at all "pull up a chair and have a conversation."  It was an interrogation and a demand to leave, plain and simple.  It was not polite, it was assuming and threatening. It was "you have a permit?  Give it to me"  "Give me your drivers license too."  It was "if you don't want to leave, I'll get the property owner and have them tell you to leave and then I'll arrest you if you don't."  I told him repeatedly that I was absolutely not refusing any of his orders, but wanted to understand how I was to comply with  the law and and not end up on the bad side of it at the same time.  His orders seemed to be based on nothing other than his agenda. I am not saying you are..  but imagine you are talking to a 4 year old about why the sky is blue Son  --  Why is the sky blue? Dad --  It just is. Son  --  But why? Dad  --  Because it is pretty Son  --  Why? Dad  --  I think it is something about water vapor.. Son  --  Why? Dad  --  I have no clue Son  --  Why not Daddy? Dad  --  Because I don't know. Son  --  Why? Dad  --  ..... At what point do you just do what you need to do..  It is like a broken record. Dad  --  Look son, Santa... The deputy isn't going to sit there all night to go over the same question.  Accept his response or not but you need to move on.  I know you are frustrated with the law but he is a deptuy not your Congressman. It wasn't a circular conversation at all.  He would not gave me the one piece of information I was looking for, which is 'since I'm not breaking the law, under what authority are you making me leave."  He was clearly pissed off at my audacity of  openly carrying a weapon given the recent shootings.  He said (almost verbatim), "I'm not questioning your constitutionality, I'm questioning your judgement."  Excuse me if my judgement offends you, but that's not *supposed* to be grounds for kicking me out.

Quoted: I don't agree, Longboat. I don't read it as the OP "asking" the cop for permission to carry concealed illegally. I read it as the cop overstepping his bounds in asking him to leave the property. Under what authority does the cop have to ask a private citizen to vacate a privately owned business, without said business owner's request to the officer? He has none. The officer should have done exactly what he said he would do, and which he only had the authority to do, to go to the management and have them ask the OP to leave. If he still refused to leave (which he wouldn't have), only then would the officer have just cause to make an arrest. Trespassing requires a warning and a chance for the offending party to comply. No warning = no trespassing. I don't like the idea of an officer deciding for me where I can and cannot go.

You're absolutely correct.  The one thing I'd like to ad is that he did "offer" to go get management and have them tell me to leave, but that is exactly what the police in Manassas told the owner of the restaurant to tell the "Manassas six"..essentially using the owner and property owner rights to back up the officers' anti-gun agenda.

First up..  It was a misread on my end in your post above.  I thought you were asking him to tell you to conceal in the food court.  In re-reading it, I see you said something along the lines of asking him to tell you "don't eat here if you can't conceal".  My mistake in reading comprehension.

Well, again that is the problem with the Internet..  You can't read emotion.

From your original post, I interpreted that he was pulling up a chair in a conversation.  I pictured a polite conversation that turned to frustration.  Not that I have ever seen a discussion on the net about cops got all stupid when someone kept asking one question over an over.  

On the topic of asking for your CCW, you said you had one..  he asked to see it.

There is no picture on your CCW, that is why he asked for your DL.  To confirm you were who the card was issued to.  He wrote your info in case he had to write a report for the incident.  No sense in asking for your ID twice.  I doubt his memory recollection ability is good enough to recall everythin on your DL.

I have to say that I was immediately suspect of your post as I do a fair amount of listening to 800mhz and know that the way you described his radio traffic is so far out of SOP that your entire post became questionable to me.  If his radio traffic really was that unprofessional, I am sure your complaint won't be the only one.

I hope you get some resolution to your complaint.

Quoted: First up..  It was a misread on my end in your post above.  I thought you were asking him to tell you to conceal in the food court.  In re-reading it, I see you said something along the lines of asking him to tell you "don't eat here if you can't conceal".  My mistake in reading comprehension. Well, again that is the problem with the Internet..  You can't read emotion. From your original post, I interpreted that he was pulling up a chair in a conversation.  I pictured a polite conversation that turned to frustration.  Not that I have ever seen a discussion on the net about cops got all stupid when someone kept asking one question over an over.   On the topic of asking for your CCW, you said you had one..  he asked to see it. There is no picture on your CCW, that is why he asked for your DL.  To confirm you were who the card was issued to.  He wrote your info in case he had to write a report for the incident.  No sense in asking for your ID twice.  I doubt his memory recollection ability is good enough to recall everythin on your DL. I have to say that I was immediately suspect of your post as I do a fair amount of listening to 800mhz and know that the way you described his radio traffic is so far out of SOP that your entire post became questionable to me.  If his radio traffic really was that unprofessional, I am sure your complaint won't be the only one. I hope you get some resolution to your complaint.

When you say radio traffic, do you mean his calling in my information?  He used a cell phone to do that, not a radio.  And yes, he did refer to me as 'the guy with the canon'.  I even asked my wife afterward if I heard that right and she confirmed.

Believe me (or not), I'm generally a huge supporter of Law enforcement because I can only imagine how difficult their job can be at times, and in my 35 years, I have never had an unpleasant experience with them until now.  That said, part of their challenge in this case was to realize that I am not a bad guy, I'm not 'looking for a confrontation, or 'trying to prove a point' and a little respect and a simple clarification of why, despite having the law on my side I was being ejected would have gone a long way to making this whole thing a non-issue.  Instead, this officer was rude to me, his backup was rude to my wife, and I left feeling one step closer to believing that the Loudoun County Sheriffs office is staffed with JBTs packing an agenda along side their gun.

I think you were ok to carry concealed there, as long as you were not eating/drinking anything from the folks that serve the beer/wine.  It is a general eating area, not just the bars domain.

It hasn't come up that much about open carry, with LEOs.  There are not that many that understand all of the laws around it.  I know that most around these parts know everything, or close to it, about concealed/open carry.  You should know everything about it, you will be the ones that pay the piper should you scew up.

The LEOs don't know that much about it, because there hasn't been a good Rodney King style problem with it.  I know there have been hiccups, but nothing that I know of being a life or death incident.

Some say to hurry up and complain on this one particular Officer!!!!!  Do it if you want.  He may be a pretty good guy that is just a little naive about concealed/open carry.  He may be a dedicated officer that has done or will do some great stuff.  He may also be a power hungry jack apple that should have never been able to wear a uniform in the first place.  I don't care, as it wasn't me that evening.....or was it!!......I wouldn't have said boo to you.

If it was me, I wouldn't mention the Deputy's name, but I would contact the commander of that division that covers the mall, and have a talk with them.  If you felt that that guy blew you off, then talk to someone in their Administrative division.  They will be in charge of training / lack of training.  

The Sheriff in Loudon Co. is an elected Official, and he knows it.  He is extremely concerned about publicity, as well as keeping folks satisfied with the job that his Deputies are doing.

Good luck

Former LoCo resident here.  Yes, the Sheriff is elected, and he was in fact re-elected last month as an Independent after losing the Republican nomination at the convention in May.  I have also open carried in his presence at political functions where alcohol was served.  He knows the law on it and is cool with it.  In fact, he told a former Loudoun Commonwealth's Attorney to STFU because the CA wanted me arrested for carrying openly at such an event (the current CA is a good guy).

Obviously the deputy had a failure in training somewhere.

ok, well more information reads more of the story.

I hope you get a resolution.  It is sad that you had a poor exchange.  I would say that his phone call was inappropriate or unprofessional at best.


Be safe out there..

"I think you were ok to carry concealed there, as long as you were not eating/drinking anything from the folks that serve the beer/wine. It is a general eating area, not just the bars domain."

You need to review the applicable laws and the ABC rules.
This is a gray area.
You cannot carry conceled on the premises of an establishment with an ABC 'on' license.

J3. No person shall carry a concealed handgun onto the premises of any restaurant or club as defined in § 4.1-100 for which a license to sell and serve alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption has been granted by the Virginia Alcoholic Beverage Control Board under Title 4.1 of the Code of Virginia;

ABC has defined a marked area that consumption is allowed in.
At could easily be construed as the 'premises' defined in 18.2-308.
The charge would be 'carrying a concealed weapon', and your permit would be gone.

This does need clarification, but good luck getting anything authoritative.
The AG can render an opinion, but he cannot control the judges.

Wow.  A 4" 1911 is a cannon?!

What does that make my 5" 1911?  

Quoted: Wow.  A 4" 1911 is a cannon?! What does that make my 5" 1911?

A longer cannon

You need a voice recorder so these things don't become he said/she said.  You were violating no laws and did not need to identify yourself, you were not carrying concealed, therefore you did not need to show you CHP or drivers license.  I am sure you provided it in the spirit of being a good citizen and attempting to allay his fears of you being a nogoodnik.  If the officer could not voice any reasonable articulable supicion of you committing a crime, you did not need to speak with him.  Best thing you could have done would have been to take your wife and walk away rather than engaging him in conversation.  Perhaps you'll consider obtaining any 911 calls and other documents regarding this via FOIA.  Am I being detained?  If yes, why? Am I under arrest?  If not, this conversation is over and I will be taking my leave.
Sorry it had to happen to you.  You need to make a big stink with the Loudon County sheriff about Deputy Barney.

His response was "What I'm saying is that I'm not questioning your constitutionality, I'm questioning your judgement to open-carry in here." When I again asked him how I should comply with the law, he said something along the lines of "concealed carry or leave your gun in the car". Absolutely ridiculous.

Not at all.  There's being right and there's being smart.  You may have been right, but you weren't smart.  Had it been me, I would have carried concealed and not worried about one vendor that may have sold alcoholic beverages for consumption.  Did you buy anything from that vendor?  Were you sitting near that vendor?  I'm guessing the answer was no to both questions and it would have been up to Loudoun County and the prosecutor to prove that you violated the law, assuming they knew that you had a concealed handgun on you.

kcobean, I know Sheriff Simpson.  I would like to bring this to his attention personally.  Please contact me at michaels226 (remove this) @verizon.net if you want this issue resolved.

I'll need some specifics such as the deputy's name and the date, etc.  Steve Simpson won't tolorate this and neither should any of us.

Mike

tag

Originally Posted By Hard Rock: kcobean, I know Sheriff Simpson.  I would like to bring this to his attention personally.  Please contact me at michaels226 (remove this) @verizon.net if you want this issue resolved. I'll need some specifics such as the deputy's name and the date, etc.  Steve Simpson won't tolorate this and neither should any of us. Mike

I think I just got a chill.

Can you PM the name of the cop? I know a bunch of them through being a vollie firefighter in the county and I'd love to find out who this is.

Originally Posted By Hard Rock: kcobean, I know Sheriff Simpson.  I would like to bring this to his attention personally.  Please contact me at michaels226 (remove this) @verizon.net if you want this issue resolved. I'll need some specifics such as the deputy's name and the date, etc.  Steve Simpson won't tolorate this and neither should any of us.

kcobean, please do follow up on this.

I'm no lawyer, nor am I your momma.  Just my 2 cents.  Also, understand I have a wife, also, who has a low tolerance for "problems", and were this to happen to me I would likely "give in and leave" as well were she with me, as she wouldn't handle the stress that well.

I'm thinking the best case would be to refuse talking to him once he became belligerent (someone please step in if VA law requires giving interviews to an inquisitive officer).  Should he want to press his politics on you and get the mall manager, power to him.  At that point (should have already gotten his name from his shirt), you leave per the *property owner/manager's* instruction, then file a complaint with the department (make a stink about officer coercion or something like that).

I am *not* saying you did anything wrong at all.  I'm just offering a possible course of action in the hopes that someone else can pipe in and let me know if that course would be fallable somewhere (perhaps you're *required* to ID for the officer, or answer questions or something).

As put, it's obvious the officer put his politics ahead of his job, and that should at the very least warrant discipline and training by the department.  As others noted, please follow up and post the outcome.  

I've got to see how this turns out.


Good luck on getting that LEO squared away.

Quoted: His response was "What I'm saying is that I'm not questioning your constitutionality, I'm questioning your judgement to open-carry in here." When I again asked him how I should comply with the law, he said something along the lines of "concealed carry or leave your gun in the car". Absolutely ridiculous. Not at all.  There's being right and there's being smart.  You may have been right, but you weren't smart.  Had it been me, I would have carried concealed and not worried about one vendor that may have sold alcoholic beverages for consumption.  Did you buy anything from that vendor?  Were you sitting near that vendor?  I'm guessing the answer was no to both questions and it would have been up to Loudoun County and the prosecutor to prove that you violated the law, assuming they knew that you had a concealed handgun on you.

+1, I understand the law and I understand the desire to be armed (I carry whenever I legally can) but open carrying in a mall while the reports of the shootings are still echoing in the public's ear is asking for trouble. I think that may have been a big part of what the deputy was thinking.

Not related to the OP but related to open carry. The other week in the Stafford P.O. I saw a guy who left his pistol in the car, picked up some envelopes or something with is empty holster exposed wearing a T-shirt with something wild like a pic of a noose, a plus sign, a pic of a tree, an equals sign and then "A Good Reporter".
If you are going to go armed in public don't dress like a ABC TV movie militia member.

Sorry guys, I'm a little new to the particularites of VA carry laws, but if a business wants to prohibit someone from carrying on their propterty how do they hve to go about this? Do they have to post a sign or something, and is there any specific place it has to be posted? Does this apply to the parking lot too?

Quoted: Sorry guys, I'm a little new to the particularites of VA carry laws, but if a business wants to prohibit someone from carrying on their propterty how do they hve to go about this? Do they have to post a sign or something, and is there any specific place it has to be posted? Does this apply to the parking lot too?

They just put up a sign of any size, type, or style they want (no 30.06 type rules).
If you carry anyway (except for the alcohol rules) the most they can do is ask you to leave AND if you then refuse have you charged with trespassing.
If you leave after being asked (by the owner/management or their agent) you cannot be charged with trespassing.

A concealed carry permit is NOT VALID in an establishment that serves liquor by the drink.
You MUST open carry in these places, and may well be asked to leave at that point.
Leave after being asked, nothing more happens.
Remain and you face a trespass charge.

Carry concealed in the restaurant and you face a charge of 'carrying a concealed weapon' since your permit is INVALID in these places.

Thanks for the reply. I like the fact that if youre carrying concealed all they can do is ask you to leave, because they're not going to find out anyways...Good information to know.

I've had two unnacceptable showings from the Loudoun Sherrifs Office pertaining to my job in the water industry.

1.  Had a nut job in a trailer park who parked a disabled van over a water line which was broken and needed immediate repair.  The guy came after the backhoe operator with a sword.  The sherrifs office was contacted.  We simply needed the van moved a few feet to fix the leak before the water system depressurized (instant boil water advisory).  Deputy said wecould not move the van for that would be stealing and they would not arrest him.  So the entire park was at risk of water contamination b/c we would be considered stealing......what about the punk threatening us with a sword?

2.  Had an illegal immigrant stealing water from a fire hydrant with a pesticide tanker.  Call the sheriffs offiace again.  They came out and found the driver had no licenses, no CDL...nothing.  The deputy let him drive away with no tickets, unpaid for water.   This is also a huge cross connection control issue that could have poisoned people.

What's sad is in both cases the state health department located  several counties away did more to intervene than the sheriff's office.  

The OP needs to file a complaint regarding all these officers, sounds as if the main one speaking to the OP shouldn't be carrying a badge. When he offered to go get mall management to kick you out (so that he could arrest you for trespassing if you didn't comply), that's akin to him intentionally stepping in front of the vehicle so he could fire at the driver. He needs to be fired.

Quoted: The OP needs to file a complaint regarding all these officers, sounds as if the main one speaking to the OP shouldn't be carrying a badge. When he offered to go get mall management to kick you out (so that he could arrest you for trespassing if you didn't comply), that's akin to him intentionally stepping in front of the vehicle so he could fire at the driver. He needs to be fired.

how did you go from being rightly concerned about a LEO overstepping his authority to saying he'd intentionally murder someone?

Originally Posted By Hard Rock: kcobean, I know Sheriff Simpson.  I would like to bring this to his attention personally.  Please contact me at michaels226 (remove this) @verizon.net if you want this issue resolved. I'll need some specifics such as the deputy's name and the date, etc.  Steve Simpson won't tolorate this and neither should any of us. Mike

Is this going to happen??? I hate seeing abuse of power by the folks that we designate to enforce the laws.  I really hope Steve Simpson addresses this.

I concur with this not being the smartest course of action a week after a mall shooting.  If you were'nt at the vendor w/ alcohol or in the drinking area I think you should have kept your jacket on.  It is kind of like insisting on driving 55 in the fast lane during rush hour.  Yes, you are obeying the letter of the law, but look at the unwanted attention you draw.  When carrying, the second to the last thing you want is attention.  The last thing is to have to draw.
My 2 cents, why I stay out of malls unless it is Dick's to buy ammo.

R/
Mike
VA Beach

Quoted: [ quote]His response was "What I'm saying is that I'm not questioning your constitutionality, I'm questioning your judgement to open-carry in here." When I again asked him how I should comply with the law, he said something along the lines of "concealed carry or leave your gun in the car". Absolutely ridiculous.

Not at all.  There's being right and there's being smart.  You may have been right, but you weren't smart.  Had it been me, I would have carried concealed and not worried about one vendor that may have sold alcoholic beverages for consumption.  Did you buy anything from that vendor?  Were you sitting near that vendor?  I'm guessing the answer was no to both questions and it would have been up to Loudoun County and the prosecutor to prove that you violated the law, assuming they knew that you had a concealed handgun on you.

Quoted: I concur with this not being the smartest course of action a week after a mall shooting.  If you were'nt at the vendor w/ alcohol or in the drinking area I think you should have kept your jacket on.  It is kind of like insisting on driving 55 in the fast lane during rush hour.  Yes, you are obeying the letter of the law, but look at the unwanted attention you draw.  When carrying, the second to the last thing you want is attention.  The last thing is to have to draw. My 2 cents, why I stay out of malls unless it is Dick's to buy ammo. R/ Mike VA Beach

I wasn't *at* one of the vendors that sells alcohol (i.e. we didn't order food from them, nor were we standing near them as far as I know)  but alcohol can be consumed *anywhere* inside the food court.  When you leave the court to go into the mall area, there are signs on the columns that state "Alcoholic Beverages may not be consumed beyond this point" which I would interpret to be the boundary of where the ABC license has effect.  I'm not at all comfortable concealing in this area.  Just imagine if someone had spotted me printing and told this Deputy "I think that guy is carrying a gun".  He could just as easily have arrested me for violating the "Restaurant Ban" law then.  

I agree with you that open carry right now (especially in a mall) is probably going to create some tension, but it IS both my right AND the law in this particular case unless the property owner says otherwise.  I'm sure the officer could have gone and gotten whoever was 'on shift' at mall management and said "Tell this guy he can't carry here so I can eject him", and the guy would have done it whether it was the malls official policy on the matter or not....Is the Manassas incident starting to sound familiar yet?

Originally Posted By Hard Rock: kcobean, I know Sheriff Simpson.  I would like to bring this to his attention personally.  Please contact me at michaels226 (remove this) @verizon.net if you want this issue resolved. I'll need some specifics such as the deputy's name and the date, etc.  Steve Simpson won't tolorate this and neither should any of us. Mike

You have email.

Quoted: Quoted: Wow.  A 4" 1911 is a cannon?! What does that make my 5" 1911?   A longer cannon

A Howitzer, actually...

I live but a mile from Dulles Town Center and have found that what people don't know, won't hurt them; especially this time of year with all the coats.

Just sayin'....

_MaH

Random question, but technically since you were OCing did you actually need to show him your permit and drivers license?  

Quoted: Random question, but technically since you were OCing did you actually need to show him your permit and drivers license?

No, he didn't.  Also, he wasn't committing any crime.

The police detention was wholly unreasonable and therefore illegal -- that is, if he wasn't free to leave.

_MaH

Ok guys, stop and think for a moment. You see someone walking through the mall with a coat on, no indication of them carrying at all. Nothing is thought about it. A few moments later you see the same person with their coat off and now you see a weapon. The weapon was initially concealed, how do you know that person was in compliance with the law moments earlier when his coat was on? You don't! What would a sensible person do? Probably call their local law enforcement. As a cop getting this call, I would DEFINITELY identify the person carrying and run a check on them, no only to be sure the permit had not been revoked but also check for any outstanding paper. If there was a complainant to be seen and I didn't do this, you can bet darn sure there would be a complaint about me not doing a proper investigation and they would be correct. How many of you would want to know if the person you saw in a simular situation was legally carrying?.  As far as the comments that are attributed to this deputy, I can't comment on because I was not there and did not see or hear what transpired.