Feds searching people in Indy - Page 1

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Feds searching people in Indy

Posted: 8/1/2007 4:47:17 AM EDT

Anybody know what's going on? There are TSA stations with about 20 agents each set up in at least two spots in downtown Indy, 1 is near Capitol and Market, the other is near the federal building. They're stopping and searching people getting on and off city busses and travelling on the street. This is going a little too far. Where exactly did this authority come from?

Posted: 8/1/2007 5:25:56 AM EDT

[#1]

Source?

I don't think there are many agencies with the authority to randomly stop people in the street and search them.
Public transportation... maybe. But just travelling on the street?

Posted: 8/1/2007 6:25:00 AM EDT

[#2]

I will go take a walk.

Posted: 8/1/2007 7:12:45 AM EDT

[#3]

Word on the street is that it is an exercise and related to the blowing up of those IED's on the south side yesterday. I hear that they are test-implementing a lot of what-if scenarios as training with federal $$$.

Posted: 8/1/2007 7:43:14 AM EDT

[#4]

I saw it this morning at 8:30 AM. My secretary said they stopped her bus to search and passengars getting on. The guys with the TSA and "Police FAM" (whatever that stands for) shirts were stopping people walking up to search them.

height=8

Quoted:
Source?

I don't think there are many agencies with the authority to randomly stop people in the street and search them.
Public transportation... maybe. But just travelling on the street?

Posted: 8/1/2007 8:26:28 AM EDT

[#5]

Police FAM= Federal Air Marshals

I would guess.

Posted: 8/1/2007 8:49:03 AM EDT

[#6]

LOL? Is this for real? If so me and my six figure income, in addition to my lawyer will take a walk downtown. What a bunch of horseshit, that cannot be legal.

Posted: 8/1/2007 8:53:19 AM EDT

[#7]

Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

What happened to this

Posted: 8/1/2007 10:08:59 AM EDT

[#8]

It sounds like role play? bus and people may all be part of the drill. This will likely be on the news tonight.

In the mean time, the answer is "no" you may not search me. But it does make me wonder if the govt. thinks our asses belong to them when we ride public transportation?

Posted: 8/1/2007 10:10:36 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
I saw it this morning at 8:30 AM. My secretary said they stopped her bus to search and passengars getting on. The guys with the TSA and "Police FAM" (whatever that stands for) shirts were stopping people walking up to search them.

Did they approach or search her?

Homeland security. every time I say it I think of the words motherland. Time to buy more lowers.

Posted: 8/1/2007 1:59:58 PM EDT

[#10]

Boys, tell these guys to f*ck off. No legal grounds to do these searches.

Posted: 8/1/2007 4:41:44 PM EDT

[#11]

Any further news?! I see nothing in the Indystar online.

Posted: 8/1/2007 5:03:44 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
Boys, tell these guys to f*ck off. No legal grounds to do these searches.

Why did you edit your reply? I thought the more in-depth version was rather interesting...

Posted: 8/1/2007 6:20:47 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Boys, tell these guys to f*ck off. No legal grounds to do these searches.

Why did you edit your reply? I thought the more in-depth version was rather interesting...

Do tell..

Posted: 8/2/2007 2:02:57 AM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
Word on the street is that it is an exercise and related to the blowing up of those IED's on the south side yesterday. I hear that they are test-implementing a lot of what-if scenarios as training with federal $$$.

I heard those the other day... I'm kinda in the dark here, where was this done?

Posted: 8/2/2007 3:29:54 AM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Word on the street is that it is an exercise and related to the blowing up of those IED's on the south side yesterday. I hear that they are test-implementing a lot of what-if scenarios as training with federal $$$.

I heard those the other day... I'm kinda in the dark here, where was this done?

At the Amtrak Facility in Beech Grove.

Posted: 8/2/2007 3:37:35 AM EDT

[#16]

TSA checks IndyGo bus passengers

Screeners from the Transportation Security Administration checked passengers at two Downtown city bus stops this morning.

The agency, with cooperation from IndyGo, said its agents were checking for weapons as part of a general effort to assure safety.

Security stations were set up at bus stops at Capitol Avenue and Market Street, and Ohio and Meridian streets.

Some passengers were patted down or submitted to having bags checked.

TSA said the searches were “by-permission,” meaning patrons could decline to be checked. Those who did would not be turned away, an official said, unless they otherwise appeared to be a security threat.

Does anyone know if IndyGo does not let it's patrons carry?

Posted: 8/2/2007 4:42:58 AM EDT

[#17]

If anyone wants to check them out, there are about twenty federal agents, TSA and other, outside the Capitol St. entrance to the capitol at the bus stop near Market St.

Tens of thousands of cargo ships enter our ports, and millions of trucks cross our borders unchecked because of a "lack of manpower" while 40-50 federal agents are divided two bus stops in downtown Indy checking little old ladies' handbags for guns. This country has gone beyond foolish.

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:07:04 AM EDT

[#18]

It is foolish to consent to any search like that.

Too few people understand their rights or are too timid to assert them.

The appropriate response if this happens to you is, "No, thank you. Am I free to go?"

Posted: 8/2/2007 10:05:37 AM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
TSA said the searches were “by-permission,” meaning patrons could decline to be checked. Those who did would not be turned away, an official said, unless they otherwise appeared to be a security threat.

Does anyone know if IndyGo does not let it's patrons carry?

Did they tell people they could refuse
Did they enjoy scaring people
Define "appeared"

Now I need to explain this to my 12 year old so she knows to say no to this too. Molesters wearing TSA uniforms.

Whose idea was this Bart's or the TSA? I guess since they were outside the Fed bldg it makes it the TSA's idea. I use to drive by that spot every day for a couple of years. The random road blocks for DUI get on my nerves, the seat belt "lets make money" checks in traffic is a bit much, but if the TSA starts locking down our sidewalks by bus stops.

Time to do our homework. Paging Minuteman.............

Posted: 8/2/2007 10:07:34 AM EDT

[#20]

height=8

Quoted:
height=8

Quoted:
Boys, tell these guys to f*ck off. No legal grounds to do these searches.

Why did you edit your reply? I thought the more in-depth version was rather interesting...

Because I got over energized with emotions and my lawyer said I shouldn't publically disclose my association with a certain high profile Indiana government official Trust me, I'm bitching all I can!!!! This isn't nazi germany.

Posted: 8/2/2007 2:42:12 PM EDT

[#21]

I am wiped out. Never took that walk as I work SW of the circle. I did some digging and found no law forbidding carry on the bus. The indygo website does not list any rider rules and I searched extensively.
If you would like to search for anything like this in city code look here.
http://www.municode.com/Resources/gateway.asp?pid=12016&sid=14

If stopped from boarding the bus I would ask them if they are inventing law.

Posted: 8/2/2007 4:29:31 PM EDT

[#22]

The article was VERY unclear what "weapons" they were looking for. I looked and looked, like others, and found no bans on concealed carry with permit.

I wonder what would have happened if a person said, "I do not want you searching me, but you should know that I have a concealed carry permit and am armed at this time."

If they were looking for guns without carry permits, or switchblades, etc, then maybe they had some kind of parameters they were working within.

The article left so very much out.

Posted: 8/2/2007 7:00:29 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
The Indy Star article has been updated:

David Kane, federal security director for TSA in Indianapolis, called it a "VIPR" operation.

"It's called Visual Intermodal Prevention Response. We have plainclothes inspectors, blue-gloved uniformed security officers who are checking baggage, the behavior detection officers, and federal air marshals, which are the law enforcement arm of TSA."

From the article, it sounds a lot like they're looking for someone/thing, probably on a tip or other info, but they don't know exactly who/what. It's a pretty specific stop, and it seems like they were looking to see if someone tripped the behavior detection officer's alarms.

This is, of course, a 'keyboard commando' WAG. I could be waaaaay off.

I thought that was Channel 8's new super duper radar system

Posted: 8/2/2007 8:33:00 PM EDT

[#24]

One of the guys at Ohioans for Concealed Carry had a relative in the line who was carrying. When asked, he informed the TSA screener he was carrying with a Kentucky CCW. The situation quickly escalated and he was told he could not carry. Then the supervisory asked an Indy cop who informed the TSA that they were wrong. At that point the TSA decided to treat CCW like LEO's.

I.E. Setup checkpoints without knowing local law.

Posted: 8/3/2007 3:54:45 AM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

From the article, it sounds a lot like they're looking for someone/thing, probably on a tip or other info, but they don't know exactly who/what. It's a pretty specific stop, and it seems like they were looking to see if someone tripped the behavior detection officer's alarms.

Probably not since it was part of a larger exercise that also included the Indy airport.

But as already posted, more likley to cause escalation with law abiding citizens then catch anything, like an escaped convict who is robbing banks, oh and a bus before that! Classic.

Besides..................it was just practice. More like conditioning. Get us use to seeing this kind of action. In a few years we won't even notice when they beat grandpa up and toss him in the wagon for carrying a .38.

Posted: 8/3/2007 12:03:58 PM EDT

[#26]

i think this search everyone policy violates are rights as americans, it seems to me the illegal aliens have more rights than us & being illegal they shouldn't have any other than human rights. half a dozen alphibet agency's couldn't or didn't stop 9/11 so lets create some more

, there overplaying the terror card here w/ this crap i think. the 2nd ammendment, police & military forces are all the homeland security we need & then some. seems to me like are tax's would be better spent on things like keeping bridges in better condition

, but they'd rather keep passing the buck to the next guy so they get to keep a bigger bonus or waste the $ on b.s. like this. were supposed to be the most advanced & ''free'' country in the world, there's no excuse for it as far as i'm concerned. these outside the box thinking politicans need to break open the dictionary & look up the word ''free'' &/or freedom

sorry i didn't mean to rant but i typed to much to just erase it

Posted: 8/3/2007 1:26:25 PM EDT

[#27]

I'd bet there was at minimum some confusion with the b(ull$hit)us searches and they way they normally operate at IND. I was surprised to read this in our code:

height=8

C 35-47-6-3
Consent to search of person or personal belongings
Sec. 3. Any person purchasing a ticket to board any commercial or charter aircraft shall by such purchase consent to a search of his person or personal belongings by the company selling said ticket to him. In case said person shall refuse to submit to a search of his person or personal belongings by said aircraft company, the person refusing may be denied the right to board said commercial or charter aircraft.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.32.

Note it says "...by the company selling said ticket to him." Do the airlines proxy their search rights to the TSA?

PS - sorry for the slight thread drift.

Posted: 8/3/2007 1:29:04 PM EDT

[#28]

Also, does anyone know if the Indiana chapter of the ACLU had an opinion here? I'd be interested to know what it was.

Posted: 8/3/2007 6:26:13 PM EDT

[#29]

That sums up my opinion.

Posted: 8/3/2007 8:47:53 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
"Behavior detection"???

I wonder what they would detect about my behavior.

"Behavior" is a pretext. They're really looking for citizens of Filipino ancestry.

On a serious note, I, too, find it repugnant.

I wonder what the reason for this exercise is as I don't see the usefulness of such practice in the real world by the TSA.

Posted: 8/4/2007 3:34:11 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

"Behavior" is a pretext. They're really looking for citizens of Filipino ancestry.

They'll never catch me!!! Well, unless they really try.

Quoted:
On a serious note, I, too, find it repugnant.

I wonder what the reason for this exercise is as I don't see the usefulness of such practice in the real world by the TSA.

Repugnant is a good word for it. It's pathetic that something like this happens in America and so few people are outraged by it. It's pathetic that the Indiana and Indianapolis elected officials allow the Federal gov't to treat them like their bit**es and allow this and what happened to our statehouse to happen.

Monday I'm making some telephone calls. It won't do any good, but at least I'll know I tried.

Posted: 8/5/2007 9:27:51 AM EDT

[#32]

A copy of the letter I mailed to Baron Hill follows below. Copies will be sent to my Senators, my Governor, the local ACLU and the NRA:

The Honorable Baron Hill
320 W. 8th Street, STE 114
Bloomington, IN 47404

[Techres's Name]
[Techres's Address]

08/03/2007

Dear Mr. Hill,

You may not be aware that yesterday more than twenty agents of the TSA ran an operation in downtown Indianapolis. They set up checkpoints at two downtown bus stops and searched those who wanted to ride.

With armed Federal Air Marshals present, riders were searched, and some even patted down. In the Indianapolis newspapers this operation was called a "community outreach program"* searching for "weapons violation"**.

Several firsthand reports of this reached me through the internet. The operation was anything but "outreach" as eye witnesses reported:

"Anybody know what's going on? There are TSA stations with about 20 agents each set up in at least two spots in downtown Indy, 1 is near Capitol and Market, the other is near the federal building. They're stopping and searching people getting on and off city busses and travelling on the street. This is going a little too far. Where exactly did this authority come from? (-source cited-)

Although the searches were supposedly "voluntary", agents did not inform people of their right to refuse the search. Agents were also unaware of even basic Indiana weapons law even though they were supposedly there to enforce it. As one rider reported:

"My wife has a cousin who lives in Indy and he was one of the lucky ones volunteered for a pat-down. He, like me, recognizes the value in being prepared for one's own self defense. The screener asked if he could be patted down for weapons to which he responded "I'll save you the trouble, my licensed handgun is on my right hip." The screener thought he was joking. Once she realized he was serious she announced that there was a situation and called in the reinforcements.
He was told rudely "YOOOOUUU CAN'T CARRY A GUN AROUND HERE!" And he replied "I bet I can, this isn't an airport..." By then a supervisor walked over, took a quick look at his Kentucky CCW and asked the Indianapolis PD next to him if it was any good. The Indy cop replied that a CCW from any state or country is valid in Indiana. So the supervisor declared in a loud voice to let him proceed, treat anyone with a CCW like a cop and pass them on. Needless to say though, he had a very quiet bus ride with lots of passengers staring at him the whole time.
Aside from being galled at the concept of this kind of thing, I think it's pretty sad that the federal security professionals need to learn the rules as they go. One would think that if you were supposed to set up a checkpoint to screen for weapons, you'd do a preliminary check to see what was against the law in Indiana, what was permitted, etc. Goes to show how arbitrary the whole thing is." (-source cited-)

At first I could hardly believe this operation happened here in Indiana and assumed it to be an isolated case of TSA activity, but it apparently is not. It is a part of a larger program called the VIPR program which has been quietly running for the last eighteen months and has visited many larger cities. It is also opposed by many in law enforcement, including federal law enforcement:

"The law enforcement association already was unhappy with an 18-month-old TSA program that teams the agency's armed federal air marshals -- who have law-enforcement powers -- with unarmed screeners and inspectors on special units deployed at airports, rail and bus stations.
These squads, known as Visual Intermodal Protection and Response units, or VIPR teams, gained a higher profile earlier this month when they were sent to East and West Coast airports and other transportation facilities to beef up security patrols in the wake of terrorist incidents in England and Scotland.
"The teaming up of highly trained federal air marshals with civilian TSA screeners in uniform in front of airports and train stations is a recipe for disaster," Gordon wrote." (-source cited-)

In addition to being a ridiculous operation at a law enforcement level as the searches were "optional", at two stops only, and the agents were not even versed in Indiana law, these stops were flagrant encroachments on Indiana sovereignty and our Fourth Amendment rights. Additionally, as they were done downtown a significant number of those who were searched were minorities and the poor who not only use the bus system for work, but who are often those least versed in their rights to question or refuse undue searches.

And just in case you do not think that this operation was questionable, one eye-witness was a lawyer and reported:

"I am an attorney in downtown Indy, and the bus stop by the Federal Building is right outside my window. I saw the bus parked at the bus stop for a LONG time with people standing with their bags of stuff scattered around being questioned. I thought "Whoa, I wonder what some moron did to a bus driver or cop to cause all that."
I guess I should have gone across the street and advised everyone they had a right to decline consent. Then again, I have no desire to [visit] the Marion County jail except to talk to clients or police." (-source cited-)

In addition to the legal questions involved, the expenditures of manpower and time seem a waste for both the federal and state law enforcement agencies involved. In a time of continued threats against our air travel, when air marshals are a precious commodity, why are they standing around checking people getting on busses in downtown Indianapolis?

I have several specific questions I would like you to answer after having a chance to investigate the events on 08/02/2008:

1. Why were my tax dollars spent this way?
2. What SPECIFIC threat was this addressing?
3. What CLEAR Fourth Amendment considerations were followed in the planning of these searches? What CLEAR Fourth Amendment considerations were made clear in the implementation of these searches?
4. What effect this event was expected to have within the general population?
5. Why were federal agents unaware of Indiana law when they were there to search for violations of that law?
6. Was any notification given to the public before the event (as is done with the "Click-It and Ticket" program)?
7. In a time when there are concerns over a lack of air marshals on commercial planes, why do we have them at bus stops rather than airports?
8. Why are there plans to continue this program or expand it to other cities? Should the American voter expect federal agents to be searching citizens in our streets with no cause?

So that you are aware, I wrote an diary about this event on the web site DailyKos and it was the top recommended item for more than twelve hours and remained among the top ten for over twenty-four hours which -- given the millions of daily readers and the caliber of core Democratic party activists at the site -- should give you pause as to the seriousness in which this event and program are held. I am attaching a printout of this article and following discussion for your review.

I am a Democrat, a voter, and a constituent. I am offended and concerned by what happened in Indianapolis and by the actions of this national VIPR program. As you yourself have said:

'September 11th illustrated that, while the threat may have changed, the US still faces dangerous enemies in the 21st century. Our enemies are no longer monolithic nation-states, but, instead, fluid networks of terrorists that operate covertly in dozens of nations. To successfully combat this threat, it is crucial that we coordinate and develop a coherent strategy to enhance our homeland security. We must not, however, sacrifice the personal freedoms of American citizens to achieve these goals. (source: 2006 Congressional National Political Awareness Test Nov 7, 2006)

Please act now and help protect these very rights which are being squandered with this preposterous and invasive violation of our rights at the hands of the TSA.

Thank you for your time & I await your response,

[Techres's Name]
[Techres's Address]
Registered Democrat
ACLU Member
NRA Member
DailyKos Diarist

(-source cited-)
** (-source cited-)

The formatting is damaged and I had to remove the citations, but you get the point. I strongly encourage each of you to also write letters to your representatives. They only know we are mad when we tell them!

I geared this letter to a Democrat Legislator (i.e. threatened him with the KosHeads and angry inner city commuters) and will make important changes before sending it to a Republican Governor (remind him of all the gun owners who love the ignorance and heavy handedness of the TSA in addition to the sacrificing of our sovereingty as a state), but the core will remain the same.

Baron Hill's went out yesterday. I will update when I get a response.

I also plan to send a letter to the Indy papers asking why reporting on this even was limited to a paraphrase of press releases instead of a careful look a real constitutional issues and a simple asking of the question, "What are Air Marshals doing at Bus Stops?!"

Posted: 8/5/2007 6:48:21 PM EDT

[#33]

Tech please keep us advised.

Posted: 8/9/2007 7:35:11 PM EDT

[#34]

Wow this pisses me off.

Posted: 8/9/2007 7:50:14 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:
One of the guys at Ohioans for Concealed Carry had a relative in the line who was carrying. When asked, he informed the TSA screener he was carrying with a Kentucky CCW. The situation quickly escalated and he was told he could not carry. Then the supervisory asked an Indy cop who informed the TSA that they were wrong. At that point the TSA decided to treat CCW like LEO's.

I.E. Setup checkpoints without knowing local law.

I was gonna ask, seeing as how you folks on the eastern side of the border are citizens, as opposed to us Illannoys Subjects.

Posted: 8/9/2007 8:18:00 PM EDT

[#36]

Wow, I totally missed this.
and first I have heard of IEDs too.

Originally Posted By policemanC1:
Word on the street is that it is an exercise and related to the blowing up of those IED's on the south side yesterday. I hear that they are test-implementing a lot of what-if scenarios as training with federal $$$.

PolicemanC1- are you LEO?

Quoted:

Quoted:
One of the guys at Ohioans for Concealed Carry had a relative in the line who was carrying. When asked, he informed the TSA screener he was carrying with a Kentucky CCW. The situation quickly escalated and he was told he could not carry. Then the supervisory asked an Indy cop who informed the TSA that they were wrong. At that point the TSA decided to treat CCW like LEO's.

I.E. Setup checkpoints without knowing local law.

I was gonna ask, seeing as how you folks on the eastern side of the border are citizens, as opposed to us Illannoys Subjects.

Go east young man.

Posted: 8/11/2007 1:20:27 AM EDT

[#37]

The Patriot Act, that's what. Along with the Military Commissions Act and a few other Executive Orders from His Excellency George

Quoted:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

What happened to this

Posted: 8/11/2007 1:40:14 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
The Patriot Act, that's what. Along with the Military Commissions Act and a few other Executive Orders from His Excellency George

Quoted:
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

What happened to this

Don't blame me, I didn't vote for him. It must be wonderful to be a Republican these days.

Posted: 8/11/2007 8:19:33 AM EDT

[#39]

What a bunch of shit!

Posted: 8/14/2007 11:52:01 PM EDT

[#40]

A few quick things
1) I'm a fan of the constitution and I find this "exercize" to be pretty offensive.
2) The minute a suicide bomber blows up a bus, train, mall, etc. 90% of the sheep are going to call for searches like this just like what the Israelis do for their security. This is a HEAVY sacrifice of Liberty.
3) Israel, a country with SEVEN MILLION CITIZENS is FAR from secure despite ALL their security apparatus. The US, with THREE-HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE, will never achieve Israel's marginal security.
4) "Homeland Security Cameras" are already up in Chicago - look for more and more cameras everywhere. Seemed to do London a lot of good in stopping the Subway bombers there

All these cameras do is document terrorist acts. They will not deter any (duh.)
5) I'd bet good money that the Homeland Security folks were keeping tabs on the numbers of people that refused, complied, etc. etc. so that when "the real thing" happens, they'll have an idea of the general public's reaction. Indy is used for a LOT of "marketing research" because it has a very representative mix of people that is easy to extrapolate to the country as a whole. This exercize was most likely some Homeland Security "opinion research"....
6) When 2 dudes with guns ask to look in your bags or search you, most people are going to comply. I'd bet they got a 80%-90% compliance rate

7) I wish to God I lived in a free state - where I could CCW and act appropriately if (God forbid) a terrorist act did occur. As it is, I can run fast and pull out a pocket knife. Good times.

8) Shit like this reminds me of why I take training classes and practice regularly.

Stay safe,
Mike