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Posted: 5/4/2007 11:52:17 AM EDT
[#1]
NO, not unless you are federally licensed, in other words you must have an FFL.
A private Joe cannot have them. |
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Posted: 5/4/2007 1:39:12 PM EDT
[#2]
The AG is working on changing that, he already got us Class III back and lets keep our fingers crossed we get the right to own silencers soon!
Many dealers think we will know one way or another this summer and most of them think its going to be good news. |
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Posted: 5/7/2007 4:59:03 AM EDT
[#3]
sorry for the noob question but.....
what is class III |
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Posted: 5/7/2007 6:01:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Fully automatic weapons, suppressors, short barreled rifes, short barreled shotguns, destructive devices, and AOW (Any other Weapon) that meets Federal definitions of a Class III/NFA weapon. IN MI right now only machine guns and AOWs are allowed to be transfered to civilian ownership via a Class III Dealer and ATF prior approval (Form 4).
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Posted: 5/7/2007 9:36:09 AM EDT
[#5]
So I, as a civilian, can own a full auto firearm if I buy it from a class III dealer, and have filled out and received approval from the ATF?
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Posted: 5/7/2007 11:18:02 AM EDT
[#6]
If you get your Chief LE officer to sign off on the form and the ATF approves the transfer you can own a full auto which was produced pre 86 (only LE and Dealers can own things made after 86)
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Posted: 5/7/2007 11:20:16 AM EDT
[#7]
Yes.
It has to be a pre 1986 registered weapon. After that only dealer samples and Government tranferes were allowed. This is an expensive hobby to get into. A low end MG like a M11 or M55 will cost starting around $4000.00. High end MGs like M16 and MP5s go for $12000 to $20000. Belt fed weapons well over that. You have to find a weapon to buy, pay for it, have the sellers dealer send the paper work to ATF to have it transfered to your dealer here. May have to pay the $200 tax fee for that depending on what you work out with the seller. A 1-3month process. Then, get the transfer papers from your Class III dealer filled out (only a handfull of them in MI/most are great to work with), get two sets of finger prints taken by LE agency on the correct ATF print cards, have the Cheif LEO in your jurisdiction sign the form, get a passport size photo, write a check for another $200 trans tax, send everything in original duplicate to ATF. After about another 3-6months you can pick up your Class III weapon from your dealer, after paying their dealer fee ($75-100 average) and waste your paycheck on ammo like the rest of us. I think that about covers it. Heres a good for sale forum Subguns Remember it has to be "fully transferable" or "Pre 86" in the add. If its listed cheaper than stated above than its most likely a dealer sample. As dealers can trans/buy between eachother. |
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Posted: 5/7/2007 12:03:19 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks for clarifying. I'm new to all of this and still trying to catch up on all of the common knowledge.
thanks again, Dan |
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Posted: 5/7/2007 5:57:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Well here I go.....a stickler for the technical stuff.....hang on it is going to get messy....
"Class III" is a term commonly used, incorrectly I might add, to describe machine guns (MG), Sound suppressors (SS), short barreled shotguns (SBS), short barreled rifles (SBR) and other stuff that doesn't fit in those catagories as any-other-weapons (AOW). Class III or Class 3 is actually a classification for the type of special occupational tax (SOT) payer you are if you are federally licensed to conduct firearms business of some sort. To handle the fun stuff....NFA stuff, you need to pay a special yearly tax on top of your normal license. A Type 08 Importer of firearms pays their SOT and becomes a CLass I Importer, Type 07 manufacturer of firearms pays their SOT and becomes a "Class II" manufacturer, a Type 01 dealer of firearms pays their SOT and becomes a Class III dealer. (This is what I am) The items themselves....the MG's, SS's, SBS's, SBR's and AOW's are actually classified as National Firearms Act Items or NFA Items. They are also grouped as a separate grouping of items called Title II firearms or Title II Items. Regular stuff like rifles, pistols and shotguns are defined as Title I firearms. So, Class III works and most people know what you are talking about but it is technically incorrect....and since you asked.....I figured you better have the whole confusing story. Brought to you by your friendly Class III Dealer in NFA.....Great Lakes Arms.  (That is me) |
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Posted: 5/7/2007 6:06:03 PM EDT
[#10]
haha ok thanks Gordie!
I always manage to learn something here. |
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Posted: 5/7/2007 6:10:27 PM EDT
[#11]
I didn't mean it to be a smart ass reply or anything...just figured I give the whole drawn out confusing story. I live this stuff everyday so I am used to explaining it in detail and about two minutes into the whole thing most people start getting that glassy eye look and I know I have lost them so sorry if it was long winded and hard to follow.
By the way....on that AG decision......I been hearing that for a year now! I sure hope to hell he does do something soon so I can clear out my safe.....I have quite a few cans (suppressors) collecting dust in there right now and customers who would like to have them! |
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Posted: 5/7/2007 8:02:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Shamless plug for Great Lakes Arms. He knows his stuff.
When I said most dealers are great to deal with, he's one of them. My transfer went as smooth as could be. Although, Bustoff helped by breaking the ice with the Macomb Co Sheriff so that part, which can be touch and go, was quick and simple. Great Lakes knows I cant wait for this supressor ruling to come down. 
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Posted: 5/8/2007 11:16:19 AM EDT
[#13]
Gordie, hope that response wasnt to my post.
Sorry if my reply came off as me thinking you were a SA, I honestly meant thanks as I didnt know the exacts. I knew they were truly NFA items but didn't know the whole break down like you gave it. Right now I am dealing with Wa at Firearms Exchange for my Serbu (AOW) but I do hope to get a FA someday in the future or even a can so you may hear from me someday (gotta spread the business around to the good guys in the state) I was told the AG has formed a committee for this as he got a lot of heat for the FA decision BUT they said the committee should give us the green light this summer (this was another dealer who told me this but who knows) Lets all just keep our fingers crossed and continue to support Mike Cox, we need more people like him up in Lansing if the state is going to improve. 
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Posted: 5/8/2007 2:50:57 PM EDT
[#14]
No it wasn't your post....what happens is I type it and then read it...then re-read it.....then re-re-read it and the finally submit it. Then I read it again and edit it and re-read it....then edit and re-re-read it again....then edit and re-re-re-read my posts again and after about the seventh reading I start to think.....Did I come off like an ass hole? Then I get paranoid and try and clear up some questionable statements. Sometimes if I have had enough beer or bourbon I will post what I am really thinking without politically correct filtering and then I usually have a day or two of internet batteling before it is all over.
It is not you....It is me! SERIOUSLY! Hell....I am doing it right now! I am on my second revision to this post! Number three. |
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Posted: 5/8/2007 2:57:40 PM EDT
[#15]
Yeah it kind of is but since I don't stock anything it is only an attempt to get a little transfer business. I ain't gonna get rich on transfer money but it does help pay for the $150 FFL and yearly $500 SOT payment.....which is comming up this month. |
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Posted: 5/8/2007 3:20:48 PM EDT
[#16]
Better to come off as an ass than to be a sumofabitch know-it-all like me. I did my txfr through GLArms. Excellent guy, good businessman and I feel no shame in saying so. |
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Posted: 5/8/2007 4:29:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Is it true that once you hold or have held a Class III SOT the BATF can search your premesis without warrant when ever they want?
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Posted: 5/8/2007 6:33:03 PM EDT
[#18]
No, not quite.
As a business you are subject to inspection but unless you are doing something wrong or at the very least making someone upset, you shouldn't have any issues. |
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Posted: 5/9/2007 6:00:21 PM EDT
[#19]
I didn't hear that SBRs were allowed. Is this true in MI now? |
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Posted: 5/9/2007 6:17:11 PM EDT
[#20]
NOPE....no SBS or SBR's here.... for you or me the guy with the FFL.
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Posted: 5/9/2007 6:26:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Thought so.  Thanks for the reply.
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Posted: 5/12/2007 4:57:59 AM EDT
[#22]
Can't the FFL get one for LE Demonstration purposes, like they did with MG's prior to the change in MG status?
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Posted: 5/12/2007 9:50:34 AM EDT
[#23]
Well I have never tried to buy (transfer) a SBS or SBR but it is commonly known to other FFL holders here that SBS's and SBR's are not allowed in Michigan. This is a Michigan thing, not a federal thing and has no "For demo purposes" clause. That being said, there is a dealer in Washington Twp that a customer of mine told me about and that I have since spoken with who says he buys and sells SBR's and SBS's all the time. Actaully sets up a display and sells at gunshows.... I don't know how he does it but that is what he told me. Says the ATF approves the transfer and that is all there is to it.....I am skeptical.
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Posted: 5/12/2007 11:51:02 AM EDT
[#24]
 If you find out more let me know, if there is someway this can be done and you figure it out I will come order one from you for sure!!!!
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Posted: 5/12/2007 5:57:57 PM EDT
[#25]
I am not persuing it.....I know it is a no-no and the fact that some have transfered is probably just an NFA screw up.....they do that from time to time. Everything I have read and heard aside from this one guy has indicated it is not possible in this state.
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Posted: 5/13/2007 4:14:47 PM EDT
[#26]
I am in the process of working out a way to do a Form 1 under MI law. I can't post details as I don't want to screw things up while in the middle. I am partially successful so far and will post the details in a few months when all is approved. Lets just say that it is further along than our silencer opinion.
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Posted: 9/22/2007 7:04:51 AM EDT
[#27]
Any updates on this?
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Posted: 9/22/2007 8:41:21 AM EDT
[#28]
Yes. I have three so far. 2 SBRs and 1 SBS all approved form 1s. The firearm must be a C&R firearm in order for ATF to approve the form 1. So if you have a 50 year old firearm or a firearm on the C&R list, you can make it a short barreled rifle or shotgun. I have approved so far:
A 1911 pistol with a stock added, A C&R 870 Remington shotgun, A C&R Ruger 10/22. The shotgun should be done in the next two weeks or so as it is out getting refinished. The 10/22 barrel should be back as well by then. I already have the pistol stock added but I am going to do some mods to the pistol as well. I have green cards for all three already. |
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Posted: 9/22/2007 9:27:19 AM EDT
[#29]
Mongo IF its a shotgun you are looking at look at the Serbu SuperShorty
I have one, it is an AOW and VERY fun! If you want a SBR only way to do that is Class III I have heard C&R can be SBR but I am not sure about that one.
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Posted: 9/22/2007 11:40:52 AM EDT
[#30]
No worries, I have 3 SBR/SBS, all done on form 1's on C&R qualified guns, signed by the sherriff, approved by ATF, and green cards from the state for all of them. It's legal, I was just the first to figure out how to do it legally. It's generally been assumed that it had to be a C&R that was originally a SBR/SBS when the law does not specify that. ATF will not approve something that is not legal in MI. If it is questionable to them, they will contact the AG before approval (As they did with silencers). Since the state left it up to the Feds to determine the status of the firearms, it is obvious that they have determined them to be within state law.
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Posted: 9/24/2007 4:11:34 AM EDT
[#31]
Have they figured out when the decision on suppressors will be made??
Also are there any class 3 dealers that can do a transfer or order the NFA stuff? In SW Lower MI |
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Posted: 9/24/2007 4:49:28 PM EDT
[#32]
I would like to know about that as well. Any news? |
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Posted: 9/25/2007 4:16:25 AM EDT
[#33]
NO.
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Posted: 9/26/2007 12:47:27 PM EDT
[#34]
WZZM13.com has a page for people to post questions for them to ask Mike Cox, don't know if they will actually ask the questions posted there, but it might be worth it. I put my question up there already, asking why granholm can get an Opinion issued about what days of the week are counted in reguards to time limits on bills, but when the legality of ownership of a Federally controlled item is brought up, it takes over a year and half to get an answer.
http://www.wzzm13.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=81444 LEAVE the link cold, so it doesn't see you coming from ar15.com. At the bottom of that page you can ask a question for them to ask mike cox, start asking for suppressors and maybe they will ask him and get an answer for us? |
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Posted: 9/26/2007 5:15:34 PM EDT
[#35]
Since it hasnt come yet, I am going to put money on after the next Gov election. Cox will get elected Gov and will bring a conservative AG on his coat tails. Then youll see it happen. As much as we dont want politics in this decision, the fact is, there is. Otherwise he would have released it. The law is pretty clear and his Office knows it.
My fear is not when but what else may be looming with it. I hope there is no pressure to make changes to the law to regulate it some how. An extra State tax or registration fee. The fact is when the politics are right, then we'll see it. No sooner, no later. They could sell the MG ruling by explaining the process, prices, and that its mostly a collector thing. And, the political climate was pretty calm at the time. Silencers are low cost and hard to sell as a collector item. Most people who are not around guns wont buy the hearing protection point. The Liberals can easily use it as a scare tactic in Cox's bid for the Gov Office. |
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