ATF 2010 Budget - Hit CTRL-F and use "trace" as your search term.

ATF Firearm Trace Reports - State by state reports on firearms trace information.

ATF Trace Request Form

Those links should provide sufficient proof that the ATF does in fact do data mining on firearms, and traces them from manufacturer, to dealer, to original purchaser using trace data.

The Misuse of BATF Firearms Tracing Data - For those still confused on what an ATF Trace is, or how it works, here is an excellent and very well sourced article explaining what, how, and why it is. The topic addressed by that article is different than what I am addressing here, but it still explains what firearm trace data is, very well.

Now, all of the above seems perfectly above board, business as usual, and doesn't seem to be against any law. In order to trace a firearm using the above process, the ATF has to have a firearm (used in a crime) in hand in order to use its serial number to conduct the trace. This isn't the problem though, nor is it why people are up in arms. People are hopping mad because of the fact that the ATF has started using a trace process similar to the above, but in a different way, and in violation of law in order to trace firearms, without actually having a physical firearm in hand to begin the trace. Instead of tracing guns that have been recovered from crimes, the ATF has launched an effort to witch hunt individuals that have bought guns that the ATF has deemed "gangster friendly" or "Mexico Desired." That is their focus through "Project Gunrunner" and it is something they did many years back in a program called "Operation Forward Trace" under the Clinton Administration. I believe they are going about this in a highly suspect, and I believe; completely illegal manner. First, let me point out 3 things that the ATF is doing that I believe are illegal.

1) Violating the FOPA by recording private buyer information from form 4473 from FFL holders.

2) Violating the Tiahrt Amendment by using the illegally obtained data to conduct baseless investigations into private citizens who legally purchased the guns they've decided to target in their witch hunt.

3) Are threatening FFL holders who refuse to assist them in breaking the law with legal action, and threatening to revoke their license.

Let's talk about the "Tiahrt Amendment" for a minute, so I can lay out why what the ATF is doing is illegal. President Obama singled out this piece of law in his campaign, and its still on the White House Website as a goal to get repealed. He wants it gone, as do other gun control proponents, specifically because it limits what the ATF and other agencies can do with firearm trace data. Specifically, the "Tiahrt Amendment" does the following:

1) Prohibits the ATF from using trace data or releasing it to federal, state, and local agencies, unless in connection with and for use in a bona fide criminal investigation or prosecution.

In other words, you cannot use the trace data unless it is part of a legitimate criminal investigation into a crime that you already know has occurred. It does not allow using the data for a witch hunt to try and create an investigation.

2) Requires the FBI to destroy any record of a NICS background check within 24 hours of the check being conducted, and prohibits retention of any of this information in any kind of a government database.

The US Government has been sued by the NRA for failure to destroy this information in accordance with law before, but clearly it still remains a problem as the ATF has found a new way to get around it.

3) Prohibits the ATF from releasing "firearm trace data" on the basis that it serves no useful purpose. The Congressional Research Service has repeatedly said "firearm trace data may be biased" and "cannot be used to test for statistical significance between firearm traces in general and the wider population of firearms available to criminals or the wider American public."(Congressional Research Service, Gun Control: Statutory Disclosure Limitations on ATF Firearms Trace Data and Multiple Handgun Sales Reports 3 (June 30, 2006).) These limitations exist because the "tracing system is an operational system designed to help law enforcement agencies identify the ownership path of individual firearms. It was not designed to collect statistics."(Congressional Research Service, Assault Weapons@: Military-Style Semiautomatic Firearms Facts and Issues (May 13, 1992).)

Regardless of that prohibition, the ATF is farming this data out to the GAO, elected reps, and the media to use as a statistical reference in pushing the garbage about US guns in Mexico. The same body that said the data was statistically useless (Congress) has been gleefully using it for statistics to drum up support for new gun regulations. Here's some glaring proof of that in an ATF Testimony before Congress by numerous ATF Agents. These agents used the "firearm trace data" as statistical proof of the guns from the US to Mexico "problem." Nevermind, Congress has already told the ATF such as use is illegal and that the data is effectively useless for this purpose.

Now let's talk about how the ATF is violating FOPA. The ATF is in violation of the FOPA (Firearm Owner Protection Act) by conducting audits of gun dealers Form 4473 (Firearm Transfer Form) and collecting the names of the buyers off of those forms.

THE FIREARMS OWNERS' PROTECTION ACT:
A HISTORICAL AND LEGAL PERSPECTIVE - This is a incredibly comprehensive study of the FOPA and it demonstrates the following abuses by the ATF:

1) Gathering the names of buyers off of Form 4473.

The FOPA states the following in regard to inspection of licensee information:


In other words, keep your goddamn hands off of the private data records from legal firearms transactions, unless you have a legal, protected, legitimate reason to obtain it in the course of an investigation into a known crime.

The ATF is violating this prohibition by searching through the records of border state FFL holders, and pulling the names and addresses of buyers of certain types of guns, in order to go investigate them and ask them why they bought the guns, what they did with them, and to physically inspect them. Granted, since they don't have a warrant, they are only asking, but they got to this point by illegally obtaining privately protected information. They should never legally have had access to this information in the first place, PERIOD! Because most people are intimidated by questioning from a Federal Agent, and because they typically don't know their own rights, they are volunteering information to the ATF that the ATF has no legal justification for knowing, much less even asking about at all. It is a witch hunt clearly intended to find evidence of possible crimes.

Evidence of such investigations occurring:


100 Agents sent to Texas - These agents will be solely devoted to "Project Gunrunner" and developing leads to try and find people who may be selling guns to Mexican gun smugglers.

Federal agents hunt for guns, one house at a time - This article has a few references that indicate the ATF is getting their information through dealer records, and not because they have any crime guns in hand. It specifically states that because "the government can’t compile databases on gun owners under federal law, Agents instead review firearms dealers’ records in person."

HOUSTONIAN SENTENCED TO PRISON FOR LYING TO BUY GUNS - In this link, the ATF itself admits it began an investigation into Hernandez after a routine regulatory inspection of a local firearms dealer’s records showed the cash purchases of a large number of military-style firearms. Now granted, this guy was a scumbag, and he was breaking the law, but the ATF broke the law in order to find that information out. They used privately protected information to begin an investigation into someone, solely on the basis of information they obtained by violating the Firearm Owner Protection Act. And they didn't discover in the inspection of the forms that these purchases were cash, they would have needed the FFL to disclose that as it isn't something that is recorded on the firearm transfer form. Thus they were collecting private transaction data as well, without cause or a warrant. That's also illegal and is privately protected financial information. The ATF would have caught up with this guy legally, as some of the guns he bought were eventually recovered in Mexico. Upon that legitimate criminal use being discovered, the legitimate use of trace data would have led them to Hernandez.

ATF: Phoenix Gun Dealer Supplied Mexican Drug Cartels - In this article, the ATF again used information obtained from Form 4473, in violation of FOPA, to begin an investigation as a result of "pattern buying that looked suspicious." According to federal and local officials, the investigation began after an ATF review of X Caliber's records showed "an obvious pattern of firearms purchases consistent with firearms trafficking." Again, the ATF busted a scumbag, but they did so using illegally obtained information.

In an effort to ramp up arrests, anecdotal evidence is springing up around the Internet from people who are saying the ATF is showing up at their door to ask them about weapons they purchased legally. These people consistently say they have never sold weapons to anyone, that the weapons are still in their possession, and that the ATF is demanding to see the physical firearm for inspection. Granted, these are anecdotal, but they have been happening consistent with the news stories above, and the description of events in each case is virtually identical in nature. The NRA has actually received enough member complaints of these activities that they have set up a number to call to report the actions, and they are looking into the complaints.

Some links to people currently alleging these events:

Air Force Soldier contacted by ATF about guns bought in Texas. Note, the only way the ATF could know about these guns is by obtaining info on the buyer from the Form 4473, a violation of FOPA & the Tiahrt Amendment.

Contacted by BATFE today!! *Update* - This one is a guy who knew his rights and told the ATF no, he wanted to talk to his lawyer. Upon advice from the lawyer, he told the ATF they'd need a warrant. He alleges the ATF got nasty upon that revelation. He also states he hasn't sold so the only way the ATF could get his info, again, is by violating FOPA and Tiahrt Amendment by stealing it off of a Form 4473.

I'm in SE Texas ( the center of the gravity of Project Gunner- see atf.gov) and had a check last week. - This guy is a dealer and he alleges that the ATF reviewed his records, specifically looking for buyers with unusual numbers purchased of certain models. He states that the only guy the agent was interested in was one that met the "gangster preferred" gun model criteria, and happened to be his cousin. This information was obtained in violation of FOPA & the Tiahrt Amendment. The next post, a dealer from Ft Worth alleges he had an agent in specifically racially profiling for hispanics.

ATF Agents had copies of the Form 4473 - This guy states 2 ATF agents showed up asking about guns he'd bought, and they actually had copies of the Form 4473 he filled out. That is a major no-no and a HUGE violation of multiple sections of the FOPA. To me, it is additional evidence that the ATF is illegally reverse tracing firearms to try and drum up leads to create criminal investigations.

NRA - This article is an alert to NRA members that a substantial number of their members have been approached by ATF Agents regarding legally owned weapons. It also gives info on how to report these events to the NRA, and how to seek legal counsel to protect your privacy. It also states "some of the agents have used heavy-handed tactics.  One reportedly demanded that a gun owner return home early from a business trip, while another threatened to "report" an NRA member as "refusing to cooperate."

This is probably insufficient evidence for most of the skeptics here, but for most people, this is understood as business as usual for one of, if not the most corrupt agencies in the United States. This is an agency that has consistently and routinely been known to violate the law and to outright fabricate "evidence" to harrass and intimidate gun owners.

I believe the events I'm relaying are on the front end of this new push, but as the agents settle into a routine, I have a feeling these stories are going to start exploding in frequency.

What the ATF is doing is illegal, and if you give enough of a damn about it, you need to raise hell to your congresscritter!

-SS

And so it begins...

Interesting...

This ain't gonna stop until someone gets hurt.

Great documentation.   Thanks.

Glad you guys got some value. That took me quite awhile to put together.

Feel free to share.

-SS

Thanks for the information.

Semper Fi

Excellent and informative...  I will pass the URL along to some friends...

Thanks for the information

I'm going boating this weekend, think I will take some firearms with me.

I'm in Victoria, Texas.  I can personally confirm that ATF agents went to local dealers, reviewed and copied yellow forms (taking them from the dealer to make copies) then paid personal visits to residences of buyers of mulitple AR's and handguns.  The people visited reported there were two agents, they were polite, and didn't ask to see any guns, just wanted to interview the buyers and ask if they still had the guns, and if not, how were they disposed of.  Two people I know personally recieved "visits" at their home, and I heard their account first hand.  This was a couple month ago or so.  It is happening just as described.  Forward traces and direct interviews at your own house.

I can't say I'm surprised.

They are just doing their jobs.

Good read, tagged to finish latter. this is getting fucking out of hand in a hurry.  

Wow. I am so glad we traded the Hughes amendment for the wonderful protections of FOPA.

Well, this is for anyone who beleives that we do not have gun registraion.

I don't answer my door so I am not too worried. Those who need to get in contact with me already know how without coming to my front door.

I would hopethat a judge would refuse to give a warrant based on someone simply buying a bunch of guns.

Interesting read, thanks for getting it together SkyStash.

Do you guys remember me telling you that I got a letter from the ATF asking me to call them? I was wondered how they got my name. The letter said they were investigating the FFL.  Everyone I told said don't worry there just doing a random inspection. But if they investigate 90% of the FFL's in Texas don't they have access to 90% of the gun owners. ( tighten foil hat). All it takes is man power.

Remember rule #1.  Right to remain silent.  Tell them to fuckoff.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/jim_jeffries/jim4.txt


       A non-licensee has no legal duty whatsoever to talk to or
otherwise cooperate with a BATF agent (or any other governmental
official).  It is a sad commentary on our times and the state of
our federal government (and especially BATF) that the appropriate
legal advice from a defense lawyer to a non-licensee confronted by
a federal or state law enforcement officer can be capsulized in a
single sentence called RULE ONE: Silence is golden; or what part of
"no" don't you understand?



Read the information at the link I posted.  Part of the info is posted here for your viewing pleasure.

I would hope so too...  but in counties like Harris and Travis which are more liberal I'm not quite as optomistic...

Thanks for all the information.  It is a sad commentary indeed.

The weird part is, these two agents were from Indiana.  

This doesn't make any sense.

Suppose they come to your house looking for a gun and they don't find it. What then? It isn't illegal to sell a gun. Federal Law exempts people from prosecution for selling all or part of their own collection. So you don't have the gun on the 4473. So what? What law was broken?

BATFE is apparently trying to create a scare campaign to try to confuse people that selling a firearm is illegal unless it goes through an FFL dealer and has a 4473 filled out for it.  The Obama administration is on record for saying that they'd like to make that the law.  The liberal Democratic party leaders would like to do that, they just don't have the support to do it right now and they fear a repeat of the 1994 mid-term elections which their losses were blamed by many as largely because of their passage of the AWB.  Since they can't get what they want legally it appears they are trying to use FUD "Fear Uncertainty and Doubt" in order to frighten innocent people into compliance with it anyway.

Here's what happened when I was talking with the ATF agent over the phone...  They asked if I had the receivers and PS90 still.  I said I sold the PS90 (ammo was too damn expensive, now it is a bargain compared to 5.56!) and some of my ARs.  This got the agent's attention - she said I needed a license to sell guns if I was buying guns with the intent to sell and making a profit.  I said I understood the law and sold them after having them for several years and most were not at a profit.  A large portion went through FFLs and the remainder were FTF with fellow AF people.  My mistake was offering that info up - after review with my FFL all the guns I purchased through him I still had (except the PS90) and I sold a few ARs I had built up from receivers purchased in DE to my friends.  

SS - thanks for the heads up on this information.  I'm going to forward it on to my friends and FFLs!

Spooky

ETA:  I have purchased 4 more AK receivers since the ATF interview - I don't know how they are coordinating their searches with higher headquarters in this regard.

Tag

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Excellent post.



Sounds like the best thing to do is get some hard documentation of these abuses (like video of agents going through FFL files) for the coming lawsuits.

Happened to me the agent had a handful of papers with serial numbers.

He threatened a warant which I had brought my uncle who is also a lawyer and the dumbass was shooting the shit with the atf agent as he was logging a few of my rifles on his notepad.

Next time Ill pay for a lawyer, the idiot was even telling the atf agent he had sold me some guns.

2 others I work with also got a visit one for having to many pistols and the other for buying a large amount of kit guns (3)?

Time to get a new lawyer.

Thank you for posting this, it is very helpful. l

What and how many of this or that is my business not theirs and that's the best answer they'll get out of me.

I heard that there may be a case where a dealer is using the extra lines on the 4473 and selling the guns to someone that is taking them to Mexico just like what happened in Phoenix at Excaliber Guns . Anyone there heard about that ? If they are asking about multiples that is what they are fishing for more than likely.

Ok, and this is bad why?  Did you make legal purchases?  If so, whats the issue?

Exactly.  Think, folks.

Title 18 of the U.S. Code Section 1001 is what you risk.  You can be charged if you forget a detail or unintentionally tell the officer the wrong piece of information.  Watch this video : Video Link

let me add:

...the complexity of modern federal criminal law, codified in several thousand sections of the United States Code and the virtually infinite variety of factual circumstances that might trigger an investigation into a possible violation of the law, make it difficult for anyone to know, in advance, just when a particular set of statements might later appear (to a prosecutor) to be relevant to some such investigation. - Justice Breyer (ROBERT RUBIN, SECRETARY OF TREASURY, et al. v.
UNITED STATES, through the independent counsel)

Don't get me wrong...I'm not suggesting for a second that you should cooperate with them, just that this operation doesn't make sense.

It sounds to me like the people upstairs said "Crack down on gun runners, get some arrests and convictions!" so the BATFE is drumming up gun runners.

I agree with everyone else, if they come knocking then don't tell them anything.

if you have a lawyer, make sure he's a good one

if you don't, make friends with some that are firearms knowledgeable.  the atf plays for keeps.  don't fuck around.  don't talk to them until you have an attorney.  let your atty speak for you.  

Stop Volunteering Information.  they aren't there to "protect" you. they are there to find shit on you to arrest and prosecute you.

Didn't you guys learn anything from the Clintoons? Remember the magic words!

I don't recall.
I can't remember.

You can't get busted for perjury for having a poor memory.

With regard to those Indiana ATF agents, you should have invited to a local Tex-Mex restaurant and feed them stuff made from Habanero pepppers and then some. I doubt their Mid-Western taste buds could have survived that.

Here is the story of it happening to a fellow forum member back in may

http://www.theguncounter.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=6527&st=0&sk=t&sd=a

I keep seeing postings where people have been interviewed by federal agents, and the interviewees keep mentioning how the agents were very friendly and how the agent said that the interviewee was not in any trouble. All of the above may be true, but these are also well-known psychological techniques for interrogating people. The ATF is under tremendous political pressure to prosecute people for "gun-running." It is also seems that they don't have any real leads, and as a result, they are on a massive fishing expedition. If people keep talking to the "friendly" agents, some of these people may unwittingly discover that the fishing expedition has turned into a fish fry. Be careful.

Here are some additional thoughts. I'm not trying to pick on the poster, but there are some additional considerations:



Just a word of caution. When the police tell you that they want to talk to you and say that you are not in trouble, that is not necessarily true. Even if it is true, by the time they are done talking with you, you may be in trouble due to unintentionally making an adverse statement against yourself that implicates you in the violation of some federal criminal law that you (and most other people) are not even aware of. Important Rule: when law enforcement wants to talk to you, tell them to talk to your attorney and promptly seek the advice of a criminal attorney.

I wouldn't sit around worrying that you are the target of a larger investigation, but here is something to consider in future dealings with law enforcement. You can never help yourself by talking to the police. However, you can really hurt yourself. No, this is not a rant against the police, but it is important to to never surrender your legal rights without the advice of an attorney.



Once again, this may be the truth, but then again, the agent may be trying to appear friendly in order to put you off guard and make you more amenable to being voluntarily interrogated. This is a variation of a technique known as "elicitation" (aka "educing" or "educing information"). Elicitation exploits psychological limitations in humans in such a way that the target is unwittingly tricked into revealing important information that he would not normally reveal to a stranger.

When elicitation is performed properly, the target will leave the interview thinking that they just talked to such a friendly person, and frequently, the target will feel the agent was really interested in him as a person. As a result, when people keep talking about the "nice" or "friendly" federal agents that they just talked to, it sounds like the interviewees may have had elicitation techniques successfully deployed against themselves.

They showed up outside a friends house and his wife saw these two guys in suits sitting in front of the house.

She goes out to ask who they are and why are they sitting in front of her house, it's two BATF guys asking about multiple firearm purchases her Husband has made, all the same brand, high dollar stuff.  They want to know if he's buying this stuff to sell, she says, "NO he's a collector of that brand".  They then ask does he still have them, she replies, "Do you know what Collector means?".  They leave never getting out of their car.

I remember a few months ago maybe more, a post that had a video attached that was very plain on dealing with these types of matters.

It said never ever talk to the police or authorities without an attorney. They are not your friends, period.

Remember that anything you say can and will be used against you in a court.

I'd like to buy that woman some flowers.

I think this is the video you are referring to. It should be required viewing for everyone.

Never Talk to the Police

A former criminal defense attorney explains very clearly and humorously why you should never talk to the police. He is followed by a former police officer who is a 3rd year law student who agrees with everything said by the attorney.

Thats the one, thanks

Best post of the year