As I mentioned in earlier posts, I'm getting back in to CMP/NRA shooting after a 2 decades + long hiatus. Long story, but was elected to the AZ Senate for a couple of terms and that didn't allow time and ability to be able to make scheduled events at Ben Avery and the state association. (I was endorsed by NRA both terms ) and life just got different and unstable for the years since. Finally have some opportunity to get stability and re-set up my shop to build rifles and reload. Yaaay!

Back when I was still shooting regularly the powder of choice was just starting to be 2520. I had good results with H335 back then, too.  I have recently picked up a pound of Varget but haven't loaded with it yet.

What powders are the competitive types using these days? I will be developing loads for 20" 1-8 twist 223 Wylde chambered rifles. I'm taking advantage of some time at home for rebuilding rifles (new uppers and triggers) from originals used by me and my son's so we can go play together.

Just looking for a place to start on load development to take advantage of 25 years of technology progress that I missed...

Thanks in advance!

Imo, the 2 best powders are Varget and xbr.  

As far as bullet selection, you will get alot of opinion on that.  For practice stuff, depending on what your trying, either cheap 55 fmj or 53gr smk.  

After that its load work ups and see what 69 smk, 75 hpbt, 77smk, and 80 smk (have to single load) do.  

Idk if when you got out optics were allowed or not, but now that are.  It was 1-4.5x24 but (I believe) 1-4.5x30 is now allowed.

Varget I had heard some goodness about (that's why I got a pound to try) - xbr is new to me.  I'll research it.  Thanks!  

75, 77 and 80 gr bullets hadn't yet caught on (62s were the rage), so my original target rifles were 1:9 and 1:10 twist.  (I built them in the early 90s and had to use a bore brush and measure with a marker 'cause I'm getting old and forgetful and couldn't remember the twist on them) I'm taking them off to rebuild the old rifles and have gathered a set of all new parts for a new rifle for me.  (I was shooting a NM M1A and M1 Garand back then. My sons were shooting the ARs) The new ARs are all 1:8 so I'll be limited to </= to 77s, I expect.  Had loads worked up for 55 gr for those rifles, so I'm starting form scratch with 62, 69 and 77s that I'm looking to start loads for for all 3 when they are finished. I recall that there are some 80 gr bullets that will stabilize at 1:8 and some won't.  All 3 of the ARs are a little different so it's going to be fun keeping track of all the configurations. There aren't a whole lot of 600 yd ranges here - but there is one just across the AL border near Anniston - (CMP Mecca).  I plan to visit when the weather clears here. If that looks like a good deal, I will be looking at 80 gr. loads, too.

Does anyone have a (Excel maybe?) spreadsheet for keeping track of the configurations of the AR15 platform rifles?  I haven't found one I could dl and keep - not have to use online. (probably good for another thread...) looks like the threads for this are old and need updated links.  Chased a lot of dead end links. I'm having to do 25 years of catch-up so the "new" info to me is out of date.  I guess that's part of the fun of getting back in.  And to me, it is fun.  

After these builds are done, I'm looking for a Super Match M1A (sold the last one since I wasn't competing any more...now i have an "excuse" to get a Super Match.  At least, that's what I told my wife :) Cool thing is, she agreed to it!  She's very cool.  I think she likes the aesthetics of the M1A - I'll probably do a super time consuming high gloss oil finish on it (my idea of fun)...she'll appreciate that as much or more than I will.

I was starting these AR builds for iron sights and have a couple of Match grade iron sights for the builds...was going to get one or two pillared.  When I found out that the scopes were allowed I was pleasantly surprised and currently plan to get the Leupold Service Rifle scopes for two of the new rifles. I picked up a Bushnell version to keep me going to see if I like using the scope option or not.  I wasn't aware that the 30mm tube scopes were now OK.  That explains why the Leupold 24mm tube scopes seem to be coming down in price.

Is there a 30mm 1-4.5 Variable that is standing out these days with competitors? I expect they will be better in low light...and for old eyes.

I wish that matches were still being held through the coronavirus scare, so I could ask the folks who are all gathered about questions like these.  I'm glad this forum is friendly to old timer "newbies"

Thanks in advance for any assistance, opinions or misconceptions that you can pass on to me.

Apologies for rambling on...

Much thanks in advance,

Darden

IMR8208XBR is made by ADI in the same factory as Varget. It looks like Varget, same color, same smell, only the kernels are half the size.  IMO, it's a faster burning, better metering version of Varget.  It's also not temp sensitive.

I've been shooting NRA/CMP Service rifle for about 10 years now. Optics became legal in 2016. IT was a game-changer.  

As far as optics go, well, that just depends on how much you want to spend. Leupold makes an FX 1-4.5 and VX HD 1-4.5 that are very nice. Good selection of reticles. The newest is the HPR-1. Leupold has a mil/fed program, and its good for 40-60% off retail price in case you are still with the Gov't or you're a veteran.  Nightforce also has a veteran mil/fed program, otherwise getting close to 2k for a 4.5x scope.  My favorite is the VX4.5 HD with Firedot bullring.  Next in line is HiLux XTC 1-4. I don't own a Nightforce fixed 4.5 yet, but have not heard any complaints about them.  

Don't waste your time on 75 grain Hornadys. Too much variation from lot to lot.  Last time I shot at Talladega, two guys had problems with them coming apart. They were both distinguished, and the RSO checked their targets when the shots didn't register during offhand. Nothing ! Both were using new cut rifled barrels too. I also heard this was happening at Perry.

Bullets: 77 SMK's or 77TMK's both work well for 200 and 300. 80 grain SMK's and 80 or 80.5 grain Bergers all shoot great at 600.

Powders. I've had good luck with H4895, IMR4895, AA2520, AA2230 and H335 in the past. My "go to" powder is Alliant AR COMP, but its next to impossible to find these days. Next in line is IMR8208XBR, Varget, and CFE223.

Brass. I use Starline for my 600 yard stuff with 80gr SMK's, on top of 22.8 grains of AR Comp .020 off the riflings. For my shortline stuff, I buy Wolf primed brass from ammunitionstore.com. A couple months ago it was $105.99 for 1000 pcs of primed brass that shoots lights out. It also reloads nicely too. Imo, its way better than Lake City. The primer pockets are crimped, but its a light crimp, and one swipe with the chamfer tool will take the crimp out of the primer pocket. No need to swage the pockets. I tested to see how many firings I could get out of one piece of Wolf Brass in my 223 bolt gun, and stopped at 17 firings. Primer pocket was still tight. Good enough for me.

Barrels, I used to shoot Kreigers, they are great, but they're getting expensive and not east to get in a hurry. So I switched to Criterion 1:7.7 twist with a 223 Rem match chamber from Creedmoor sports. I'm on my 3rd one, and they shoot just as good as the Kriegers at half the price.  1:7 , 1:7.7 or 1:8 will all work for bullets from 53gr to 80 gr.

Handguards. I built 4 uppers with Geissele MK7's. They are much more rigid than the old school free float handguards from Rock River, WhiteOakArmament or Compass Lake Engineering. Krieger does offer a free float tube and handguard, it's thicker and stronger than the others mentioned, and they have a few left at the moment, but once they are gone, they are not making anymore.

Buttstock. I have the standard A2 and Magpul UBR Gen-1 stocks. Still can't make up my mind which I like best. These are the two most common stocks you'll see on the firing line.  

Lower receiver: Doesn't really matter. AS long as its a forged lower, and not billet.

Bolt release/Bad lever: Phase 5 or Magpul

Triggers. I have both Geissele NM and Rock River NM. Beleive it or not, I prefer the less expensive Rock River NM trigger.

I will be at Talladega in November 18-20 for the 600.  Yes, it is the Mecca of gun ranges. All electronic targets, even on the pistol ranges.  If you've never shot there, you're in for a treat !  I would recommend you go before you shoot a match there. You will have to qualify at 100 and 600 yards prior to shooting any matches. The RSO's there are great, and the facilities are amazing. It's a $25 million dollar shooting range, how bad can that be ? LOL

Sorry I had to break my reply up. Site won't let me post more than 2000 characters at a time. When does that change ?

I legged out with irons using 23.2 XBR, LC cases, 77 and 80 Nosler BTHPs, and Wolf SRM.

Welcome back!

Thanks for the heads up on XBR.  I'm searching for a local source.  I haven't found it at my go-to supplier, but there has to be some around here someplace.  Creedmoor was closed when I went there last week.

The Taledega CMP Range is amazing!! I thought I was spoiled by Ben Avery...Ben Avery is World Class. I guess that makes the CMP Range Galaxy class. They are open but the shop is still closed for a couple weeks, yet.  They should open soon, though.

Also thanks for the heads up on Hornady 75gr 224s.  When I got out of the game the 55 gr bullets were disintegrating being fired from 1:8 and 1:7 barrels, and so I got rid of my 55 gr bullets (had a couple thou in the closet and sold them at a loss to not have to keep them around.  Decided to go to 62 gr bullets for my plinking and overall shooting not at a competition.  Turns out the 62 gr military surplus stuff had steel penetrators in them and tended not to be very balanced longitudinally so accuracy suffered beyond 200 yds.  Don't know it they got better or not.  Been staying away from them and using more expensive commercial bullets for plinking and playing. Nothing is available these days...everyone is home reloading, I guess.

Thanks also for the heads up on the Nightforce.  I'll be looking into them.

On your red dot bullring reticle...do you ever use the red dot feature? Is it worth the extra? Just wondering.  

Hope you all have a great Memorial Day.  My son is setting up his sound system with 4 foot tall speakers to play taps at 3pm here.  Remember the fallen.  appreciate those who returned.

Regards,

Darden

thanks! great to be back into it...almost anyways.  Should finish my sons AR and mine in a day or two.  Had to substitute adjustable gas blocks for fixed due to rules for CMP guns.  But moving along nicely to be shooting before I go back to work.

Have a great Memorial Day.  Remember the ones who didn't come back and appreciate the ones who did.

Regards,

Darden

LOL, yes Talladega is "Galaxy Class" for sure.

Unfortunately reloading components are scarce right now. Everything ran off the shelves about 2 months ago. Powervalleyinc has 8208XBR in stock.  They tend to have the lowest prices as well.

If you go with the Nightforce, I highly suggest getting a "lens reducer" from White Oak.  There is no parallax adjustment on the scope, and the lens reducer will make sure your head is in the same place every time.  They are simple, cheap and very effective.

The weather conditions determine when I use the Firedot. Sometimes the black crosshairs fade into the target black. Especially if the mirage is bad.  I have them in my VX/R Patrol 1.25-4x's and VX5HD 3-18x scopes and have shot plenty of 1000 yard matches with them on my match rifles.  I just ordered a VX4.5HD with the HPR1 reticle (no firedot). Should have it in time for the July matches in Talladega.  I also have a HiLux XTC 1-4 with a lighted reticle, but its not "day bright" and is basically useless, but its still a great little optic. Only down side, "Made in China" I'll never buy another Chinese optic.  

69, 77, 80, 80.5 and 82 grain bullets is mainly what you see guys using.  I have also used Hornady 53gr flat base match bullets for offhand only, and they do very very well. I still use them for offhand if there is no wind. I bought a bulk pack of 6000 from Powdervalley a few years ago, just to practice offhand.
i am testing some 60 grain TMK's for future use in offhand. They have the same BC as a 69 SMK, and you can push them pretty fast.  

Welcome back to XTC !

"Death before F-class" !!!

Robert    

Been busy since last hanging out here.  Got my 3 rifles done and working up loads.  Went with the Leupold 1-4.5X and the Bushnell 1.5-4.5X for optics on the first two and iron sights on the third.  I have 2 sons that like to go along to practice and matches with me.
I will use a non standard 4-16X for sighting in and load development.

Bought a Black Rifle Machine Rest, but it hasn't worked out for me...wasted a ton of time and multiple trips to the range with no results to show for it.  Back to sandbags and a rest for me.  Maybe I'm missing something.  Spent an inordinate amount of time, energy and money building a wooden platform for the damn thing and got nothing but frustrated.

Varget is often available here but XBR is non-existant.  Joined a local club, but they only have a 100 yd range - well ALMOST 100 yds - about 4 yards short...good enough to get sighted in and get a good idea of my group sizes for load development - have to drive a "whole" hour to get to Talladega for serious practice

Accurate LT-30 is widely available these days in 8 lb kegs. Hodgden is pushing it for Benchrest in 223 and 308 - how thermally stable is it?  Is anyone using this for DCM type matches? Inquiring minds want to know!

I'd consider settling for Varget but there are no 8 lb kegs to be had - only singles and they are $50/lb

Primers are starting to show up - at $120+ a thou...I buy .22LR cartridges for way less than that!!! I'm glad I have some pre-COVID primers in stock, still.  Hoping costs will start to go down before I start getting into the competition scene ...might have to quit for another 20 years. I'm just not that desperate for a hobby. Seems there are a BUNCH of scammers out there claiming to have XBR and primers "in stock" - I haven't been bit yet, but it's so nice to know that crooks are infiltrating our enjoyment

Any sources out there for 8208xbr? I check regularly at all the well known outlets with no acceptable results on primers and no results at all on 8208.

To everyone who has been so nice - Thanks for all the help getting back into the sport.  I'm having fun just getting ready - really looking forward to getting out there to compete!

Thank you for your response.  i really appreciate the info.  I opened an account at PV and am hoping to catch them with 8208 in stock soon.  I took your advice on the 53gr match FB bullets, too.  I'll use them at 100 yds and 200 Yds and see how they do at 300 yds.  I understand that FB bullets stabilize quicker when fired, so are a good choice for shorter ranges than BTs.  Caught them cheap and had to cull 20 or so from a batch of 500 for out of weight range.  Sierra uses >/=0.3 gr delta as their no go range, so I used that as my range with the Hornady's.  I need that many for fouling shots and initial zeros for my rifle so that doesn't waste any rounds.  I am trying to use the same copper jacket formula between barrel cleanings, so the more I can stick with one manufacturer the better.  For 77s and 80s I'll use SMKs, so I'll have to clean my barrel between stages for a while as I am well stocked in the SMKs.

I'm very interested in how the 60 grainers work out for you...

Thanks again!

Darden

Varget is very popular, as is Reloader-15, and H4895

Thanks!  I have a couple pounds of Varget to play with, but I can't find it in 8lb kegs anywhere (that isn't a scammer) so far.  

I've never used Reloader 15.  Is it thermally stabilized?  

I've used 4895, since it's been around much longer than more modern thermally stable powders and found it to be pretty good back in the day (80's and 90's) - and the stick type powder is not a problem for me since i measure each charge. I can likely find it in 8lb kegs, too.

I've seen  a bunch of places with LT-30 available in 8 lb kegs...is it thermally stabilized?  Anyone have good results with it?  They claim it holds benchrest titles. Anyone use it for CMP Highpower (223/308)?

...months late....

RL15 is not that stable but not bad in my experience.  I have outstanding results  with that powder in the AR and my precision .308 with Sierra 175 BTHP.   The .308 easy easy to work up with RL15, Varget, and IMR 4064.  Old school.

When my RL15  jug is gone I will probably choose something else that is thermally more stable.  The data is there for backup though should it be the powder available.

H4895 is thermally stable and one I always try to keep in stock.  I still have two 8 pound jugs od IMR 4895 to go through but mostly in the garands.

I shoot 24.0 grains TAC with an 80 SMK out of a White Oak service rifle upper with basic Wilson 1:7 barrel and March 1-4.5 optic with three-quarter minute dot.

Delivers high master scores at 600 yards.

What more do you want?

I've had good results with CFE223, H4895 and IMR4895, in that order.

Honestly my powder selection is going to depend on what weight bullet I am shooting.

68/69 or higher, Varget, Reloader-15, or H4895.

Lighter, I'd probably look at one of the ball powders.

Thanks WEG and musketjon!

All good info.

I have given up on ever finding 8 lbs of IMR 8208 xbr.  

Since this thread was started, WW StaBall Match hit the market...anyone tried this for Service Rifle?  Results?

Thanks in advance.