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IN, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:05:26 AM EDT
https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/05/06/special-forces-training-shuts-down-after-soldier-accidentally-shot-live-ammo-machine-gun.html
How would they not notice and how did it not have some catastrophic disagreement with the BFA? |
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ISR
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:06:18 AM EDT
[#1]
Not following DA PAM 385-63
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:07:17 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By USMCTanker: Not following DA PAM 385-63 Let me guess a blank firing adapter? |
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UT, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:08:37 AM EDT
[#3]
They hired the armorer from Rust
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:08:40 AM EDT
[#4]
 Seems like an easy fix with some electrical tape. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:11:33 AM EDT
[#5]
Pics of mangled BFA???
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:14:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Defender3]
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By USMCTanker: Not following DA PAM 385-63 ^^^^^^^^^^^^ This OIC and RSOs have some 'splainin to do. ETA: An extract from the Quantico Range Brief. The picture is a 40mm that got sucked up by the Don's Johns guy from a porta potty: 
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:18:18 AM EDT
[#7]
This is a pretty fucking simple thing to avoid.
But complacency don't give a fuck. |
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FIN
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:19:48 AM EDT
[#8]
It happens once in a while.
Often people fill magazines in the dark, while being tired and just not concentrating. Some times there is a live round there. Some times people take few handfuls of blanks, put them to pocket to fill magazines later and there is live round there. FMJ 7.62x39 goes through blank firing muzzle device like hot knife through butter. This means that on rare occasions on short distances like CQB people get hurt. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:25:43 AM EDT
[#9]
My understanding is that Delta and Devgru only train with live ammo, Rational being that you need to be responsible for where every single bullet goes at all times.
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:27:25 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fighter443: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/122302/IMG_3397-3207787.jpg Seems like an easy fix with some electrical tape. I understood that reference. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:33:02 AM EDT
[#11]
It happens.
Had a SEAL do this in an exercise a few years back. The ‘hostage’ he was ‘rescuing’ got hit with the shrapnel. I was the Exercise Director overseeing the OPFOR for the event. We never got a good explanation other than the team was so high speed they neglected basic safety checks. After all, they were SEALs. Some were no longer SEALs after the investigation uncovered a bunch of other ‘shortcuts’ they had been taking. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:34:21 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By STL_Nik: My understanding is that Delta and Devgru only train with live ammo, Rational being that you need to be responsible for where every single bullet goes at all times. No. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:34:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: cvtrpr]
[#13]
I know an Infantry Company Commander who just rotated home from Syria.
While turning in their training ammo, one of his PSG's brought him a SAW drum, that the PSG himself had opened the can (the E7 broke the lead and wire seal on the can). The drum was marked M200. The PSG thought the drum was heavier than it should have been. He brought it to his TOC (Commander) and they opened the drum together - it was 4/1 Ball mix. He has photo evidence, I have seen it. This *may* be a larger LCAAP problem.  It actually looks like M995 |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:38:29 AM EDT
[#14]
Like "Special Olympics" Special Forces???
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USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:40:01 AM EDT
[#15]
Are they the only ones professional enough?
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:49:04 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By S-1: No. I'm just going off of whats been cycled around the pod cast from ex team guys |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:51:03 AM EDT
[#17]
Would not be the first time it happened.
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IN, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:52:47 AM EDT
[#18]
iT hApPeNS bRo!
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GA, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:53:04 AM EDT
[#19]
Infantry commandant at Benning retired earlier than expected after a rash of issues. It happens.
You turn ammo back in that's been handled by seven joes in a pile. Sometimes it's your SOPs/personnel suck, sometimes the ASP issues live instead of blanks. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:55:03 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By STL_Nik: I'm just going off of whats been cycled around the pod cast from ex team guys In a shoot house at paper targets, but never for force on force which is what blanks are being used for in this circumstance, lol. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:56:05 AM EDT
[#21]
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USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:57:21 AM EDT
[#22]
Blame it on Chucky
 Child's play 3 - Chucky Puts Live rounds into the Rifles |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 9:59:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TarzanT: It happens. Had a SEAL do this in an exercise a few years back. The ‘hostage’ he was ‘rescuing’ got hit with the shrapnel. I was the Exercise Director overseeing the OPFOR for the event. We never got a good explanation other than the team was so high speed they neglected basic safety checks. After all, they were SEALs. Some were no longer SEALs after the investigation uncovered a bunch of other ‘shortcuts’ they had been taking. I do opfor for the seals now and we have very strict mag checks on our side to check for live ammo but I have heard stories of live rounds being found mixed in during safety checks. Hopefully the platoon never forgets to do their safety checks, lol. They typically use surefire blank adapters on their m4’s though and they will catch two or three live rounds. The mk46’s and mk48’s have blank barrels with a blank adaptor welded over the muzzle. Us opfor typically use the screw on BFA’s which probably aren’t quite as safe. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:00:54 AM EDT
[#24]
When the upper levels focus on pronouns instead of safety?
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:05:10 AM EDT
[#25]
 They were using blanks in a saw, with a BFA on it, yet somehow a soldier got shot with live ammo???Someone explain that to a DAT |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:06:58 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bansil: They were using blanks in a saw, with a BFA on it, yet somehow a soldier got shot with live ammo???Someone explain that to a DAT |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:08:53 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cvtrpr: First round blows the BFA apart. Long burst, more rounds exit the barrel. It happens. This. Probably happened before the soldier could even get his finger off the trigger. If the guy only got shot by one bullet from a saw he’s probably lucky. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:10:41 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By bansil: They were using blanks in a saw, with a BFA on it, yet somehow a soldier got shot with live ammo???Someone explain that to a DAT BFA are designed to peel away when hit by a live round. They are not designed to stop bullets, their only purpose is to provide added back pressure to cycle the rifle with blanks. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:11:22 AM EDT
[#29]
Wow, just wow, how do saw BFA mount? Like a M16?
I figured the bullets would back up on each other and not destroy the BFA |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:11:58 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Would not be the first time it happened. Won't be the last, either. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:21:04 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By STL_Nik: My understanding is that Delta and Devgru only train with live ammo, Rational being that you need to be responsible for where every single bullet goes at all times. @STL_Nik DEVGRU Blue Sqdn  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:29:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Shootindave]
[#32]
My blank ammo can is marked with yellow tape. My magazines for blanks are marked with yellow tape and will never for any reason be loaded with live ammo.
Picture of BFA. Screws down into the bore of the flash hider, directs gas into tube, with a small bleed off hole further up the tube. This forces more gas back down the barrel, and into the gas system to cycle the rifle with blanks. It should be noted that there are blank fire adapters that look very different, like the Surefire Socom BFA which looks like a yellow suppressor and is like $400.  Attached File |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 10:56:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: imabballer]
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shootindave: My blank ammo can is marked with yellow tape. My magazines for blanks are marked with yellow tape and will never for any reason be loaded with live ammo. Picture of BFA. Screws down into the bore of the flash hider, directs gas into tube, with a small bleed off hole further up the tube. This forces more gas back down the barrel, and into the gas system to cycle the rifle with blanks. It should be noted that there are blank fire adapters that look very different, like the Surefire Socom BFA which looks like a yellow suppressor and is like $400. They make those Surefire suppressor BFA’s in other colors too for different barrel lengths. I have one of the yellow surefire suppressor bfa’s as well as several of the yellow and red screw-on bfa’s like in your picture. Most of us that do the opfor have started using clear lancer mags which makes mag checks much easier. You can see if you have any live rounds with a quick look at the mag without having to use a flashlight to look down into it. We used to use primarily AK’s but the military has a massive shortage of 7.62x39 blanks right now. Apparently the main supplier of those blanks is too busy making ammo for the Ukraine war to fulfill orders for blanks. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 11:18:22 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By imabballer: They make those Surefire suppressor BFA’s in other colors too for different barrel lengths. I have one of the yellow surefire suppressor bfa’s as well as several of the yellow and red screw-on bfa’s like in your picture. Most of us that do the opfor have started using clear lancer mags which makes mag checks much easier. You can see if you have any live rounds with a quick look at the mag without having to use a flashlight to look down into it. We used to use primarily AK’s but the military has a massive shortage of 7.62x39 blanks right now. Apparently the main supplier of those blanks is too busy making ammo for the Ukraine war to fulfill orders for blanks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By imabballer: Originally Posted By Shootindave: My blank ammo can is marked with yellow tape. My magazines for blanks are marked with yellow tape and will never for any reason be loaded with live ammo. Picture of BFA. Screws down into the bore of the flash hider, directs gas into tube, with a small bleed off hole further up the tube. This forces more gas back down the barrel, and into the gas system to cycle the rifle with blanks. It should be noted that there are blank fire adapters that look very different, like the Surefire Socom BFA which looks like a yellow suppressor and is like $400. They make those Surefire suppressor BFA’s in other colors too for different barrel lengths. I have one of the yellow surefire suppressor bfa’s as well as several of the yellow and red screw-on bfa’s like in your picture. Most of us that do the opfor have started using clear lancer mags which makes mag checks much easier. You can see if you have any live rounds with a quick look at the mag without having to use a flashlight to look down into it. We used to use primarily AK’s but the military has a massive shortage of 7.62x39 blanks right now. Apparently the main supplier of those blanks is too busy making ammo for the Ukraine war to fulfill orders for blanks. In related news; I will be updating a thread soon on the making of 7.62/5.45x39 blanks, assuming I am given the spent brass this weekend for the project. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 11:33:40 AM EDT
[#35]
Normal bullshit behavior from SF.
I was permanent OPFOR at JRTC. We killed a SF Team and found mags loaded with live ammo in their rucks. They were booted from JRTC immediately. They got pissy with us for searching their gear claiming we couldn't because they had "Top Secret" comms gear, but they just didn't want us finding out they had a full loadout of live ammo. The O/C about lost his shit and the entire rotation was called to a halt until we could get them out of the training area. I had no sympathy. If they fucked up, I was the guy who was going to get shot. |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 11:41:19 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SnowboundinNH: Normal bullshit behavior from SF. I was permanent OPFOR at JRTC. We killed a SF Team and found mags loaded with live ammo in their rucks. They were booted from JRTC immediately. They got pissy with us for searching their gear claiming we couldn't because they had "Top Secret" comms gear, but they just didn't want us finding out they had a full loadout of live ammo. The O/C about lost his shit and the entire rotation was called to a halt until we could get them out of the training area. I had no sympathy. If they fucked up, I was the guy who was going to get shot. I'm all for keeping force pro rounds handy but having them loaded up in mags during FoF is 
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Posted: 5/7/2024 11:46:59 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By STL_Nik: My understanding is that Delta and Devgru only train with live ammo, Rational being that you need to be responsible for where every single bullet goes at all times. Nah… Blue guns w sims. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 12:47:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Soooooo....I assume this is worse than mixing 300blk in with 5.56?
Asking for a friend. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 12:54:57 PM EDT
[#39]
If you can get a Court Martial and years in Leavenworth for a vehicle accident, I'd think live ammo in this situation would certainly be a career ender, and possibly worse.
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:06:04 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fighter443: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/122302/IMG_3397-3207787.jpg Seems like an easy fix with some electrical tape. Even easier fix is don’t point a gun at anyone or anything you do not intend to destroy. Ever. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:08:16 PM EDT
[#41]
Nobody is immune to complacency
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:08:34 PM EDT
[#42]
But did they get the genders correct?!
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:10:19 PM EDT
[#43]
To think, if we had a bit more diversity, this could have been avoided.
Hopefully there was a safety standown and they were retrained on proper pronoun use. |
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NC, USA
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:18:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By LineOfDeparture: This is a pretty fucking simple thing to avoid. But complacency don't give a fuck. this -- pretty crazy. epic leadership failure at several levels. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:22:48 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By cvtrpr: I know an Infantry Company Commander who just rotated home from Syria. While turning in their training ammo, one of his PSG's brought him a SAW drum, that the PSG himself had opened the can (the E7 broke the lead and wire seal on the can). The drum was marked M200. The PSG thought the drum was heavier than it should have been. He brought it to his TOC (Commander) and they opened the drum together - it was 4/1 Ball mix. He has photo evidence, I have seen it. This *may* be a larger LCAAP problem. https://scontent.fsac1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/441214588_10230384171339638_3637304462618250315_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=vgBnE4Rh5_4Q7kNvgGreGtw&_nc_ht=scontent.fsac1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDxjLlZnBWk6rvE0Veizv1EuzhNi2BQgsl5WVryUmGEow&oe=663FF2C5 It actually looks like M995 Holy shit. How does that even happen? |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:27:06 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SimonPhoto: Holy shit. How does that even happen? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SimonPhoto: Originally Posted By cvtrpr: I know an Infantry Company Commander who just rotated home from Syria. While turning in their training ammo, one of his PSG's brought him a SAW drum, that the PSG himself had opened the can (the E7 broke the lead and wire seal on the can). The drum was marked M200. The PSG thought the drum was heavier than it should have been. He brought it to his TOC (Commander) and they opened the drum together - it was 4/1 Ball mix. He has photo evidence, I have seen it. This *may* be a larger LCAAP problem. https://scontent.fsac1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/441214588_10230384171339638_3637304462618250315_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=vgBnE4Rh5_4Q7kNvgGreGtw&_nc_ht=scontent.fsac1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDxjLlZnBWk6rvE0Veizv1EuzhNi2BQgsl5WVryUmGEow&oe=663FF2C5 It actually looks like M995 Holy shit. How does that even happen? Hiring operators at Lake City for $18 an hour with expensive contractor insurance premiums. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:28:11 PM EDT
[#47]
Somebody is now getting a TSGLI check.
My buddy got shot in the side of his face and it went out his nose. Plastic surgery mostly fixed it and he got a $50k-100k check. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:37:56 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By FreefallRet: Somebody is now getting a TSGLI check. My buddy got shot in the side of his face and it went out his nose. Plastic surgery mostly fixed it and he got a $50k-100k check. A guy in another company of ours got shot in the ass during SQD/TM STX and had to deploy late. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 1:45:42 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shootindave: Hiring operators at Lake City for $18 an hour with expensive contractor insurance premiums. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shootindave: Originally Posted By SimonPhoto: Originally Posted By cvtrpr: I know an Infantry Company Commander who just rotated home from Syria. While turning in their training ammo, one of his PSG's brought him a SAW drum, that the PSG himself had opened the can (the E7 broke the lead and wire seal on the can). The drum was marked M200. The PSG thought the drum was heavier than it should have been. He brought it to his TOC (Commander) and they opened the drum together - it was 4/1 Ball mix. He has photo evidence, I have seen it. This *may* be a larger LCAAP problem. https://scontent.fsac1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/441214588_10230384171339638_3637304462618250315_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5f2048&_nc_ohc=vgBnE4Rh5_4Q7kNvgGreGtw&_nc_ht=scontent.fsac1-1.fna&oh=00_AfDxjLlZnBWk6rvE0Veizv1EuzhNi2BQgsl5WVryUmGEow&oe=663FF2C5 It actually looks like M995 Holy shit. How does that even happen? Hiring operators at Lake City for $18 an hour with expensive contractor insurance premiums. I get that it had to happen there, but still - I can’t imagine running a facility where blanks are packed on the same machinery as live ammunition. It would be only a matter of time before that happened. Of course, while I’m neither a military expert nor a safety expert, but I’d also distinguish blanks from live ammo by using obviously different cans. Preferably a different shape, but that would probably be a logistical issue. At least make the cans a different color - maybe even a different material. Regardless, it should be immediately obvious if blank cans are coming off a live ammo line and vice-versa. Hell, just weighing each can would have been sufficient to catch that. That seems like a very basic industrial automation step. Simple quality control, and cheap to implement. |
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Posted: 5/7/2024 2:06:06 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shootindave: BFA are designed to peel away when hit by a live round. They are not designed to stop bullets, their only purpose is to provide added back pressure to cycle the rifle with blanks. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Shootindave: Originally Posted By bansil: They were using blanks in a saw, with a BFA on it, yet somehow a soldier got shot with live ammo???Someone explain that to a DAT BFA are designed to peel away when hit by a live round. They are not designed to stop bullets, their only purpose is to provide added back pressure to cycle the rifle with blanks. This. One of the selling points of the surefire faux suppressor BFA is that it serves as a physical bullet trap/block and can absorb a LOT of live ammo before failing, usually in a way that makes it obvious to the shooter. |
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