Quoted: Quoted:...If you check Bushmaster's specs on their website, they do use 4150 steel. They also make a 1/7 gov't profile 20"barrel.  I don't think they are the best, because they only randomly proof and magnetic particle test their barrels and bolts, despite putting the MP roll mark on every barrel. Their new online product catalog is lacking in this information, but if you call them you can confirm these facts conerning these two features. Can you please give me the link to Bushmaster's website where it says they use 4150 and 1/7 for commercial markets. From what I can tell they only use these features on their LE Only models. Also, as I mentioned, I have not finalized our specifications yet and will only do so after the show next week. However, the 5 models that I am taking to the show have 4140 and 1/9 and one 1/8.

With 4140 and 1/9 you have made yourself the same as all of the other manufacturers who are not current with their offerings.  The 1/8 is a good move.  You would do much better with all 1/7 and 1/8 offerings.

1.  KAC  Troy
2.  not very
3. not that important
4.  not an ACE fan

I personally think this venture will fail.  
You were given good advice here.
Heed it.

1. LaRue all the way, Troy for flip up

2. Make chrome standard, I don't even see a reason to offer non-chrome lined barrels unless you are talking about SS barrels.

3. Never used the lug, but I'd still like it there. Obviously those in states where they are banned would appreciate models without one.

4. Not a big fan of those stocks. I prefer Magpul stocks, such as the CTR or M93. LMT stock is also a good choice, but it is expensive.

Like others have said, while many folks will be happy with 1/9 twists and 4140 barrel steels, most folks here on ARFCOM would prefer 1/7 or 1/8 twists and 4150 barrel steels and MP testing.

On the other end of the spectrum, like others have said, making a rifle that can digest the cheap, steel-cased ammo like Wolf is important and getting more important with ammo prices rising.

Honestly, the AR market is pretty saturated with good manufacturers right now, so it will be hard to break out. Look at what Colt, CMMG, LMT, etc offer to see what a lot of folks want in their ARs right now.

Quoted: Mr Kassnar,     I will start this out with a comment on problems with some of Charles Daly's past products which will lead into my humble opinions for your projects future.  Charles Daly has a reputation of having spotty reliability on some of its past products.  I personally purchased a Charles Daly 1911 several years back that failures to feed and failures to fire about every four to five rounds.  I have tried all types of ball ammunition and have tried numerous quality after-market magazines with no luck.  Customer service was little help as well.  It now sits in my safe waiting me to have time to troubleshoot further.       That being said, get the basics rifle specs, fit and finish, and quality control down before you start adding on after-market parts.  Pay careful consideration the trigger as many people will buy or not buy a rifle just because of trigger pull alone.  As for the barrel, a chrome lined 1/7 twist is preferred for serious work and should be at least offered if not offered exclusively.  14.5 barrels are preferable for a carbine, and it must have M-4 feed ramps for obvious reasons.  As for the furniture, keep it simple and offer Mil spec M4 stocks of the highest quality.  A full floating rail would be a welcome addition.  Larue, Troy, and even Midwest Industries all make a great product .  As for your bolt assembly, stake the gas key, and include the extractor donut  The bayonet lug is not honestly that functional for most people, but it is proper on an AR-15 and many people, if not most, gravitate towards it.   Thank you for your time, and good luck! RoverG79

Did he ever replay to your post...

Michael, my concern is that you'll be entering an already flooded market.

Going for volume does make sense.  In fact, it makes so much sense that approximately 8,000 other manufacturers and importers are also doing it.

You could put out a unique configuration of a basic quality AR, but one glance at the AR pics threads should show you that the factory configuration never lasts.  Nobody really cares about the factory configuration, except to figure out how much money they're wasting on crap they've already decided to remove.


In fact, if I were going to start a business involving AR's, I'd do this:

Find the cheapest source of high quality upper and lower parts, as left on the chart as you can get without having to build the parts yourself or pay retail.  4150 steel matters.  Staking matters.  Feed ramps matter.

Forget the carry handle and any BUIS altogether.
Forget the stock, but keep the GI buffer tube.
Forget the grip.
Forget the handguard.
Fully assemble the remaining parts of the uppers and lowers.
Throw a $9 stock wrench and a $15 handguard tool in the package.
Include a simple guide to installing a new stock, guard, or grip.

Make this build model available to any shop that sells AR accessories.  Open your own shop and sell these, and also sell very slightly discounted aftermarket grips, guards, stocks, BUIS's, optics, mounts, whatever you like.  You don't put stuff together, you just throw them in the same box and ship them together.

That's where the demand is, that I see.  Dudes paying $1000 for rifles they immediately disassemble, and parts littering closets, ammo cans, and everywhere else.  Then the dudes pay more for parts for the rifle from other shops.  All because they HAVE to, unless they build their own rifles from scattered parts, screws, springs, and whatever.

Your "price point" might be $850, which is $50 less than Fred and $25 more than Joe, but this is the AR market.  Dudes who care about $50 are out buying imported AK's and plastic glocks.  Dudes who buy AR's throw out half the shit they come with anyway.

And I'm not even a bad example of this; I've only swapped my grip and guard, and swapped the sight apertures for tritium.

If I want to save $50, and I still want an AR, even the stupidest redneck fool will say "buy the parts and assemble it yourself".  But I won't do that, because I've never assembled an AR before, and I don't want to deal with all the little screws and pins and springs, and test firing and figuring out the warranty and whatever.  And nobody that I can find sells a stripped build, so I end up wasting hundreds of dollars on accessories I end up changing.

Visualize, instead, having your fine quality skeleton build sold or linked to on every page that google returns for "ar-15 accessories".

That's how you compete in a flooded market, and I think Stag or whoever you're going to be buying your receivers from can provide that just fine, with double savings; we're not paying for the parts, and you're not paying for the assembly.

What do the rest of you guys think about that?

......Just another company assembling low-cost bulk parts that we can get anywhere else with bottom of the barrel accesories and gimmicks tacked on to make a profit.  

This model is tried and true, but does not make money as you'll have to underprice everyone else who's doing the same thing to make pennies on a dollar.

Then you'll try and save yourself with 'custom shop' premium models that will be exorbitantly priced cause you'll either a) have to buy parts for those rifles in small lots or b) will just pay some guys to 'custom fit' semi-half-decent parts. and these 'custom' 'tactical' 'match' rifles still won't stack up to the base entries of top tier manufacturers

start smart dude......don't Charles Daly this.

In answer to the original questions:

1)No opinion

2) Chrome lined is important, but not a deal breaker.  I'm not fully convinced its even that necessary with modern ammo, and a good cleaning.  CMMG has a smoking hot deal right now on some AR's that don't have chromelined barrels.  I guess you need to decide what your niche is.  There are certain beliefs that are widely held on this website that are not necessarily grounded in fact.  One of those is that chromelined barrels are a must.

3) It would be nice, but not a deal breaker if everything else is good.  If you're trying to keep costs down, and apply to a wider market, removing the bayonet lug might be a good way to do it.

4) I have no use for the ACE stocks.  I'm sure they are high quality, and plenty of people seem to like them, but they don't suit my individual taste.


You didn't ask for my opinion as a whole, but I'll give it anyway:  Like other people here have said, the AR market is really saturated right now.  I remember a few years ago Rock River AR's were really tough to find in my neck of the woods.  Now, they're pretty widely available.  I'm in the market for a 20 inch A4, and have it narrowed down to 5 companies I want to buy from.  Its a crowded field.  After I buy the rifle next month, I'll have 2 personally owned AR's, plus my duty AR.  I think I'll be AR-ed out for the foreseeable future.  Now I hear that Remington is going to be making AR's... There's not going to be much room left in the black rifle market this time next year.  FWIW, I think it would be kinda cool if someone released a decent Vietnam-era style AR.  You don't see too many of those floating around.  I'd buy one of those if they were good, and priced right (under 750 bucks).

My advice to you is to consider making something besides 1911's and AR's.  I love both design, but I don't think there is room in the market for all of the companies we have, much less someone new.  If you want to enter an uncrowded market, make a quality M14 rifle.  Springfield Armory is the only well known maker of this rifle for the civilian market.  There are others, but they are priced higher, and don't seem to get the name recognition.

I do wish you the best of luck, and I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade.  I'm simply saying that you're going to have to do something pretty spectacular to get noticed in this field right now.  I also think most people who will buy an AR-15 (be the casual shooters or hardcore) aren't afraid of paying a few extra bucks for high quality.  

I think its commendable that you came into the lion's den to ask for feedback.  That's why I'll feel bad if people start talking about your product in the same breath as Olympic Arms or Vulcan.  I think Kimber is a good model to look at.  They announced they would be making a high quality line of 1911's at a much lower price than the rest of the market.  People were skeptical, but they pulled it off.  If you can do something like that where your products are high quality at a competitive price, you'll do well.

...on the other hand, if you try to produce a "bargain line" of AR's for 600 bucks, you'll probably end up changing the name of your company 3 times a year, and will have to resort to posting false "testimonials" on this website.

Nevermind.

Quoted: Nevermind.

Why not?  Now you've got us all curious!

Forget the carry handle and any BUIS altogether. Forget the stock, but keep the GI buffer tube. Forget the grip. Forget the handguard. Fully assemble the remaining parts of the uppers and lowers. Throw a $9 stock wrench and a $15 handguard tool in the package. Include a simple guide to installing a new stock, guard, or grip.

I kinda like this idea.

I know there is a thread full of suggestions but I would like to respectfully offer my take.

Build a quality rifle. I understand as a Capitalist you look at volume and margins but there are plenty of low quality AR rifles on the market. The educated consumer is looking at their rifle as a one-time investment that they can depend on for the rest of their life. Since you are calling your new division "Charles Daly Defense" it implies that you intend to market your rifles as a serious weapon. not a toy or a range queen and if you intend to market that way then you should indeed give your rifle certain professional qualities to ensure it is rugged and dependable. Some things are overblown fashion trends here at ARFCOM, other things are truly important.

The barrel really should be 4150, 5.56 chamber, 1/7 and chrome lined. The ACE stock isnt really a serious piece of hardware and any quality sites or rail from a respected manufacturer and you'll be ok.

I wouldnt get too hung up on "US Manufactured" It might excite joe six-pack but the truth is I would rather have quality Philippino or taiwanese mil-spec components than anything from DPMS or Oly. If you have ever seen a Norinco AR you would plainly see that all it needs is some good furniture and it will easily smoke a DPMS or an Oly. Good mil-spec foriegn components could improve quality and widen your margin. everyone wins.



Edited to add:  don't gay up the roll mark either. something discrete and professional like the Sabre Defence rollmark or the old Century lowers or the old RRA. The new RRA bullseye is unattractive, I never liked the CMMG or Superior rollmarks but they arent too bad i suppose. that freakin deerhead might as well be a pink tri-angle. You've got a chance here to really do something great, dont blow it by trying to sell rifles with flashy roll-marks and shitty tapco accesories. Instead of selling 30,000 rifles to 30,000 people who wish they hadnt bought them and then get on the internet to complain about your rifle you will find that hardcore AR fans are repeat offenders and if you build a good rifle you might sell 30,000 rifles to 10,000 guys who will go on to rave about how much they love them.

Quoted: I personally think this venture will fail.   You were given good advice here. Heed it.

Some people see only what they want to see, even though what they were looking for was all around, and the results are disastrous.

If I was a gun store owner, why on earth would buy from these guys instead of any other recognizable brand if they are offering the same thing.

Differentiation stategy is the only way to survive this. They cannot compete on low cost leader, or penetrate the market because of the saturaion level of the market by established brand.

The person that says to his dealer, "I want a Charles Daly," will quickly be referred to another brand that is established with the same features.  

The only way to survive is to make something different (better as advised and ignored here) with a price slightly more than the average offerings.

It's too bad. The way this started looked good, unfortunately market researchers sometimes have their mind made up already.

There was a classic example many years back when Levi's tried to start selling tailor made suits called, "tailored classics", to the guys who like to get their suits tailored. Virtually every man interviewed told them that they could not sell suits under the Levi's name unless they slowly worked in to the market with dress pants, then shirts, and get people to warm up to the idea then go into suits, or sell them under a different name. The market researchers didn't listen and the suits flopped immediately because no-one would carry them, and they were dropped.

Look it up, "Tailored Classics - Levi's", you are about to do the same thing. Listen to your market.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Or look at Busmaster, Rock River, even S&W. None of these guys do the 1/7, 4150 steel or H Spec buffer or, well, they don't do a lot of things in your chart. But what they are able to do is build guns for the masses, especially Bushmaster. Do we want to sell 2,000 guns at the top of the scale to the niche, or do we want to sell 30,000 guns a year to the masees? I guess I would question how optimistic is your projection of market share in a market where you are offering the same product available from RRA, S&W, Olympic, Stag, Model 1, M&A, J&T Distributing, Remington, etc. etc? Selling to the masses is great; but the mass generic market for AR15s gets tighter every year. As I see it, you've got two areas to distinguish yourself - price or quality/features of product. Unless you can get a new AR out the door around $550 MSRP or less, I don't see how you are going to break into the market with the same product everyone else is bringing to the game. Well stated. Might have to ask- Who strives to start a new product line with the goal of it being mediocre? Why would you bother? Every product has it's market, and it's margins of profit. I mean if the gun owning public will buy garbage like Vulcan Arms, then the midlevel product starts to look better.

Maybe I was raised funny but If I was putting my name on a product, I would want it to be the best I could make.  
FWIW, Rolex never runs sales, or blow outs and they never discount. They have never had a run of watches that didn't sell out. There is a waiting list for new models, and all a watch really does is,  just tell time. Why are they able to do this?, Truth be told is that some strive to be the best, and when they accomplish it, they draw crowds.
Colt is the only brand that is "selling Kool-aid" and they are the top of mountain when it comes to AR15's. I love LMT but Colt is king.
If you don't intend to make a better AR, the question has to be asked....why bother starting a new product line, if your only goal is to make someone's else’s product look better?

Maybe you're slogan can read "Somewhere Between Colt and DPMS is Daly" It would be the truth, but is it how you would want to be received?

Quoted: Maybe your slogan can read "Somewhere Between Colt and DPMS is Daly" It would be the truth, but is it how you would want to be received?

Kinda seems like it.  What puzzles me is that everybody knows how to build a top of the line AR.  And there's clearly a demand for them.  Yet only a few places do.

Sadly, I feel justified in having had the reaction I had when I saw the CD name.

But look on the bright side!  They may beat Ruger to the market for rebranded mid-range AR's!  No, wait, even Ruger announced earlier.  

Quoted: Forget the carry handle and any BUIS altogether. Forget the stock, but keep the GI buffer tube. Forget the grip. Forget the handguard. Fully assemble the remaining parts of the uppers and lowers. Throw a $9 stock wrench and a $15 handguard tool in the package. Include a simple guide to installing a new stock, guard, or grip. I kinda like this idea.

+1

Quoted: What puzzles me is that everybody knows how to build a top of the line AR.  And there's clearly a demand for them.

Yes people want a quality AR, but hardly anyone is willing to pay for one.  Thats is the problem.  If they were everyone would own a $1,000 Colt or LMT.  The problem is people are constantly trying to buy the best quality gun they can at the lowest price.  For some people this is Olympic Arms, for some people this is Stag, some people it is Bushmaster, and for other its LMT and Colt.

Your right everyone knows how to build one, they just cant sell them.

Quoted: Your right everyone knows how to build one, they just cant sell them.

That explains why Colt and LMT are going bankrupt.

Quoted: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue?

Troy & Larue

2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine?

Extremely important unless its a free floated precision flat top with a Brl 18" or longer.

3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important?

Nope. Feel free to leave the bayonet lug off 16" carbines.

4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think?

I prefer a milspec 6-position collaspable.

Feel free to suggest anything

Use an "enhanced" bolt carrier thatb fully shrouds the firing pin and retaining pin.  Make sure the gas keys are properly staked from the sides. Use forged, not extruded charging handles. Use F marked front sight bases.

Quoted: Quoted: Your right everyone knows how to build one, they just cant sell them. That explains why Colt and LMT are going bankrupt.

I didnt say that.  Colt and LMT sell far less rifles to civilians then a company like Bushmaster and Olympic.  Just sit back and think about what I said.  It's true and is true in any market, just not firearms.

Keep in mind that the guys here are enthusiasts, and what sells good with a enthusiasts isn't necessarily what will sell in huge numbers elsewhere.  

The best bet is to build something that isn't crap and won't earn you a rep of crappiness among the non-enthusiast crowd, and decent enough to give the enthusiasts a platform to start with, with one or two features that give it some zing, but not so overboard with them to that it is too expensive or too specialized.

Then pics of nearly naked girls jiggling when they shoot...

Quoted: Quoted: Your right everyone knows how to build one, they just cant sell them. That explains why Colt and LMT are going bankrupt.

hardly 'commercial' companies.....

Kassnar Defence as a marketing name, Charles Daly is too associated with Turkish Shotguns and poor quality Philipine made 1911. Sorry, just being honest.

SInce I am talking about Philipine made items. I believe they are still producing or have the tooling to produce early style A1 uppers and lowers.

If you want to be well rounded, offer new syle modular rifles and authentic old style rifles as well.

ETA: Piston systems to be a good thing also. Leave the bayonet lugs no matter what lenght of barrel, liberals hate them. Therefore, we love them.

Quoted: Keep in mind that the guys here are enthusiasts, and what sells good with a enthusiasts isn't necessarily what will sell in huge numbers elsewhere.

True, but even here you have more Olympic, Bushmaster and Stag owners then LMT or Colt.  An enthusiast still has to trade off between cost and quality unless they have unlimited funds.  They have to determine if all that quality is really worth it to them.

I was simply addressing the one persons post when he stated he did not understand why more companies didnt sell quality ARs since they obviously know how to make them.  And the answer to that is obvious.

I think is still possible to build a relatively inexpensive yet very functional AR15 Variant.

While my Colt LE6920 is of higher quality materials, and quality control, and is my go-to gun, my Olympic rifle has never failed me and continues to be a fine, functional rifle, at half the price.

All markets have different segments to be covered.

1. ARMS or Troy, I have both and both are fine products.
2. Go Chrome or stay at home
3. The only thing I have used the bayo lug for as a civilian is to mount a Versa Pod bayonet adapter.  see link below

www.versapod.com/proddetail.asp?prod=150%2D101

4. If it's going to be a modular flat top, the Vltor Emod or LMT Sopmod are my pics.

Thanks for asking, most just produce and then ask why it's not selling.  Good Luck

Troy SAME PLANE
ARMS 40Lsp
14.5  1/7 chrome lined must be as ACCURATE AS LMT
A2/A1 20inch barrel
I would Follow Colt/LMT


COLT

LMT

NOVESKE

Quoted: So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? I prefer Troy or GG&G if we are talking BUIS but my preferred combination now, having owned 3 out of the 5 brands you listed, is an LMT rear BUIS and a conventional front sight. 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? Critical for me when it comes to a duty-type configuration 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? I would keep it on all the builds you can. It is a point of marketing. A lot of people want them just because Clinton's ridiculous ban prevented us from having them for so long. Also, as stated there are bayonets that will work w/ a 16" build. 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think? I like the looks of the skeleton stock but in my opinion it would be a poor choice for a varmint rifle. That application calls for a stock with an excellent area for cheek weld like the LMT SOPMOD. Also (and maybe this has already been said) but I believe the skeleton stock does not work on receivers that use a buffer tube & spring. I am not a fan of the ACE SOCOM.

I think if it was in the market for another AR it would be nice to be able to purchase it à la carte. In other words purchase the base rifle for a set price then at the time of purchase be able to pick and choose the options/accessories that I wanted on the rifle.

Just  my .02.

1. Troy

2. CL for carbines & rifles,  offer an 18" SS middy

3. This is a civil disobedience issue. They will likely be banned in the future (they can always be shaven off), but until then, we'll buy useless bayonet lugs.

4.ACE skeleton stock

I agree with this previous comment:
Offer 1/7 and 1/8 twist barrels. Manufacture said barrels from 4150 steel. 18" mid-lengths are a particularly under-represented type of barrel by most major manufacturers. Use quality bolt and carrier groups (gas keys are staked properly).
18" are my personal favorites and are very, very handy.

Also, I would recommend another logo. Since marketing is everything, I would NOT brand it "CD, and do not cheesily laser engrave it.

GOOD LUCK

1.  YHM is fine with me.  I own one and after mounting on my CMMG 16" medium contour, midlength gas system carbine, a quarter would cover the three holes – no adjustments necessary!  No benchrest, just my truck fender.

2.  Chrome lined is important to me for the reasons mentioned.

3.  A standard bayonet mounts properly on a 16" system with a midlength gas system.  Barrel length and bayonet lugs are mutually exclusive.  Gas systems are not.

4.  I have the ACE ARFX on my rifle.  It works perfectly, and since I don't "need" a slider (no longer in the body armer wearing business), it is fine with me.

Well, the show is over, my initial reactions from my wholsale customers are in as well as a slew of comments from your membership.

I now know what the majority of you prefer, and I've heard from my customers what they feel they can sell the most of to the masses.

Now I have to digest all the information and arrive at our final configurations. This will probably get done before the end of this week.

There has to be a happy medium I think that will allow us to offer desirable features and still maintain a semblance of competitiveness.

For example, it is certainly decided that all bores and barrels will be chrome lined. Bayonet lugs will appear on 80% of the rifles. M4 feedramps will be standard on all but one model. All flattops will have T-markings and and proper "F" front sight bases will be used. Our "modular" model will most likely have the Magpul CTR buttstock instead of the originally intended Ace M4 Socom. Gas keys will be properly staked. YHM will most likely get the nod for free float quad rails and BUIS and front folding sights (to help hold the cost down.) I really like the ARMS 40L but I'm afraid it will add too much cost to the stock gun. Troy is beautiful but also too expensive I feel for what we are hoping to achieve here.

The main remaining items yet to be decided are rifling twists and barrel steel. I know the majority of you want 1/7 and 4150, but I am not convinced this is the right configuration for the mass market that shoots a ton of 55 grain cheap ammo.

Perhaps we will end up with at least one model that has 1/7 and 4150 and see how it goes. If what you say is true and the market really wants these features, then our sales should reflect that demand. We will see.

A lot of guns are going to be sold between now and February 2009. We just want to make sure we can help to supply this demad with a quality functional rifle at a competitive price.

I'll take more suggestions, but some final decisions have to be made by the end of this week. I will post photos of the final configurations when we finish our design work.

Some of you my be diappointed and some of you will be pleased. Honestly, you have helped a lot in pointing us in the right direction. Now let's see how this all comes together to give the market a salable compromise. Please understand that quality will not be compromised at all. All components are 100% made in the USA and will be covered by our Lifetime Repair Policy. The smples that I took to the show were very well received. The quality was quite obvious to everybody, and those that saw them are the largest distributors of AR type rifles in the country.

Thanks again for your input. We're almost finished here!

Mr. Kassnar,

If you want to control costs and keep the quality up on the important features then I would just use a standard collapsible stock with a mil-spec receiver extension and skip the YHM BUIS and FF rails.  

The stock, BUIS and rails are really something the end user can select and purchase themselves.  The money would be better off going to the 4150 or CMV 1/7 barrels.

I would not be concerned about the 1/7 with 55gr ammo.  With proper ammo selection the 1/7 twist can accurately shoot 45gr-77gr bullets.  In fact the Winchester Whitebox 45gr ammo has proven to very accurate in 1/7 twist barrels.  

It really seems like the only folks who say bad things about the 1/7 twist and 55gr ammo are the ones who don't own one or sell 1/7 barrels and have never personally tested this theory out.  

Giving your customers the 1/7 twist will give them the option to use the most effective .223/5.56 ammo available today.  

I'd also ask you to please consider a 16" mid-length barrel as well.  The manufacturers who sell them seem to always have a tough time keeping them in stock.

Eitherway, good luck and please keep us posted!

Mr. Kassnar,
    I just wanted to thank you again for posting on this board.  I know some members will be upset that you did not adopt all of the features they put forth, but the fact that you put us in the loop means alot to me.  I will definetly give your AR's a look when I am in the market for my next rifle and will tell my friends to do the same.  Good luck with your new product line.

I am a fan of the ACE full size...tagging to read this.

How did I miss it?

If you could, can you post the photos in this post?  Any idea who the dealers will be in central Pa?

Quoted: The main remaining items yet to be decided are rifling twists and barrel steel. I know the majority of you want 1/7 and 4150, but I am not convinced this is the right configuration for the mass market that shoots a ton of 55 grain cheap ammo.

1:8 does everything you need with less negatives than 1:7.

Here's the thing with 1:9.  A general purpose AR with a 1:9 barrel is "crippleware"... you're crippling the product by making it incompatible with the premium defensive and target loads currently on the market and in the foreseeable future.  1:8 will shoot acceptably with any standard bullet that will self load from the magazine.

As far as barrel steel, "4150" is old tech - newer CrMoV type steels have better specifications are are more common, the old 4150 spec steel isn't very common anymore and there's really no sense in specifying it when better choices are available.

Quoted: Quoted: The main remaining items yet to be decided are rifling twists and barrel steel. I know the majority of you want 1/7 and 4150, but I am not convinced this is the right configuration for the mass market that shoots a ton of 55 grain cheap ammo. 1:8 does everything you need with less negatives than 1:7. Here's the thing with 1:9.  A general purpose AR with a 1:9 barrel is "crippleware"... you're crippling the product by making it incompatible with the premium defensive and target loads currently on the market and in the foreseeable future.  1:8 will shoot acceptably with any standard bullet that will self load from the magazine. As far as barrel steel, "4150" is old tech - newer CrMoV type steels have better specifications are are more common, the old 4150 spec steel isn't very common anymore and there's really no sense in specifying it when better choices are available.

Ditto, I don't know anyone that shoots 90 gr bullets from the mag and needs a 7 twist.
9 twist will handle everything up to 75grs and 8 twist up to 80gr.
However it may be cheaper to find 7 twist barrels than it is 8 twist.

I don't know anyone that wants to miss what they are shooting at so don't use the cheapest barrels you can find.

Midlength.

Midlength.

Midlength.

Even customers that do not what it is will thank you, eventually.

Quoted: Well, the show is over, my initial reactions from my wholsale customers are in as well as a slew of comments from your membership. I now know what the majority of you prefer, and I've heard from my customers what they feel they can sell the most of to the masses. Now I have to digest all the information and arrive at our final configurations. This will probably get done before the end of this week. There has to be a happy medium I think that will allow us to offer desirable features and still maintain a semblance of competitiveness. For example, it is certainly decided that all bores and barrels will be chrome lined. Bayonet lugs will appear on 80% of the rifles. M4 feedramps will be standard on all but one model. All flattops will have T-markings and and proper "F" front sight bases will be used. Our "modular" model will most likely have the Magpul CTR buttstock instead of the originally intended Ace M4 Socom. Gas keys will be properly staked. YHM will most likely get the nod for free float quad rails and BUIS and front folding sights (to help hold the cost down.) I really like the ARMS 40L but I'm afraid it will add too much cost to the stock gun. Troy is beautiful but also too expensive I feel for what we are hoping to achieve here. The main remaining items yet to be decided are rifling twists and barrel steel. I know the majority of you want 1/7 and 4150, but I am not convinced this is the right configuration for the mass market that shoots a ton of 55 grain cheap ammo. Perhaps we will end up with at least one model that has 1/7 and 4150 and see how it goes. If what you say is true and the market really wants these features, then our sales should reflect that demand. We will see. A lot of guns are going to be sold between now and February 2009. We just want to make sure we can help to supply this demad with a quality functional rifle at a competitive price. I'll take more suggestions, but some final decisions have to be made by the end of this week. I will post photos of the final configurations when we finish our design work. Some of you my be diappointed and some of you will be pleased. Honestly, you have helped a lot in pointing us in the right direction. Now let's see how this all comes together to give the market a salable compromise. Please understand that quality will not be compromised at all. All components are 100% made in the USA and will be covered by our Lifetime Repair Policy. The smples that I took to the show were very well received. The quality was quite obvious to everybody, and those that saw them are the largest distributors of AR type rifles in the country. Thanks again for your input. We're almost finished here!

Sounds like it will be a good solid rifle.

Please understand that quality will not be compromised at all. All components are 100% made in the USA and will be covered by our Lifetime Repair Policy. The smples that I took to the show were very well received. The quality was quite obvious to everybody, and those that saw them are the largest distributors of AR type rifles in the country.

I might be in the minority here when I say this, but Made in the USA doesn't mean jack to me anymore.  There is plenty of USA product that can't match up to other product.

Ruger might not have the best name around here, but they are not the number one gun maker in America because they compromised on anything relating to reliability...and that goes for the quality of metal they use.  (I will duck as someone tosses out a Ruger failure to prove me wrong lol)

Thanks for the additional input. Before we do close the build configurations on these, perhaps I should clarify further.

There will be only be 5 models built initially. We are attempting to identify the 5 most popular "off the shelf" builds that will still be reasonably priced for the features that they incorporate.

Currently in the US, 75% or more of all AR's sold commercially are what most of you call the basic "M4gery". That is, a 16" chromed barrel with "birdcage" suppressor on a flattop upper with A3 detachable carry handle and M4 6 position telestock.

For sake of discussion, this will be our base model, the D-M4. (This is where the volume is!) Setting ours apart from the crowded field will be standard features like the forged "F" front sight base (with bayonet lug), M4 feedramps, oval double heat shield forend, T-Marked rail (and whatever else I think to add in the next few days. It won't be much more.)

Next will be our D-M4S. This will be a T-marked flattop upper with two 1/2" picatinny mini-risers, a single top picatinny rail milled gas block, 16" chromed barrel w/birdcage, M4 feedramps, oval double heat shield forend with QD swivel and swivel/bipod stud installed. Also included in this model is the Magpul Enhanced trigger guard and the 6 position telestock.

Our next carbine is our "loaded" version, the D-M4LX. T-marked flattop upper with YHM flip-up rear BUIS, YHM folding front BUIS gas block with bayonet lug, YHM free-float quad-rail Car length forend with swiveling sling stud, nine 5-slot low profile "ladder style" quad rail covers, 16" H-Bar chromed and fluted barrel with Phantom suppressor, M4 feedramps, Ergo Ambi grip and either the Magpul CTR or Ace M4 Socom buttstock.

Fourth in the lineup will be our Match/Varmint model, the DV-24. T-marked flattop upper with two 1/2" picatinny riser blocks, 24" Match stainless steel bull barrel (1X8), free float ported aluminum tube forend with swivel/bipod stud installed, picatinny rail milled gas block, 2-stage match trigger and possibly the Ace skeleton buttstock.

Last , but not least will be the "Classical" DR-15 Target model. A2 fixed handle upper, A2 buttstock, 20" H-Bar barrel with birdcage, forged front sight tower with bayonet lug and rubber coated sling swivel.

All chambers are 5.56 Nato. All uppers and lowers are forged 7075-T6, hard coat anodized and teflon coated. All carrier keys are properly staked. Some nice little details are radiused mag release button and radiused trigger guard. The safety selector witness mark on the right side of the receiver is painted in red. Our Mil-Spec aluminum mags all have Magpul self-leveling followers. Little things that mean a lot yet I think you will see we will have some outstanding quality, function and accuracy at very competitive prices.

There is probably some that I'm missing here but this is the best I can do here at home this late in the evening.

Ah, the middy...we can't do this right away, but it is in our plans to have one before mid-08.

I hope I've been able to give you a clearer picture of what you will soon see on the market. Again, some (not so) minor details still need to be worked out but that should be done this weekend.

We will not be buliding 3,000 diferrent configurations like some others but we will build 5-6 models that will be very impressive and very competitive.

Thanks again for all of your feedback. You have been very helpful.

Quoted: Ruger might not have the best name around here, but they are not the number one gun maker in America because they compromised on anything relating to reliability...and that goes for the quality of metal they use.

Nothing against Ruger, but who said they were number one gun maker?
Never heard that. Most sales? Never heard that either.

Quoted: Quoted: Ruger might not have the best name around here, but they are not the number one gun maker in America because they compromised on anything relating to reliability...and that goes for the quality of metal they use.   Nothing against Ruger, but who said they were number one gun maker? Never heard that. Most sales? Never heard that either.

http://www.shootingindustry.com/Pages/SpecRep1.html

I guess they have fallen off a bit the last couple years.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Ruger might not have the best name around here, but they are not the number one gun maker in America because they compromised on anything relating to reliability...and that goes for the quality of metal they use.   Nothing against Ruger, but who said they were number one gun maker? Never heard that. Most sales? Never heard that either. http://www.shootingindustry.com/Pages/SpecRep1.html I guess they have fallen off a bit the last couple years.

Looks like the ATF hasn't done their report since 2005, so it is possible.
Remington surprised me as #1 in 2005...didn't think they did that much business.
Interesting, thanks for the links.


Sorry to bring the thread off track.

Well, KAZ53, I was originally doubtful, but it sounds like you have taken some of the feedback here to heart and I appreciate it and your customer base will too. It sounds like you are going to do the little things that will make the difference.

Best wishes, but I am still holding out for the midlength model.

Further to my model specific post last night where I detailed the 5 models we were close to finalizing, today we decided that the best way for us to try and accomodate the most potential buyers would be to add one more model. Accordingly, there will be 6 CD Defense AR rifles in our initial launch.

These are the models described yesterday evening:

height=8

Quoted: ....For sake of discussion, this will be our base model, the D-M4. (This is where the volume is!) Setting ours apart from the crowded field will be standard features like the forged "F" front sight base (with bayonet lug), M4 feedramps, oval double heat shield forend, T-Marked rail (and whatever else I think to add in the next few days. It won't be much more.) Next will be our D-M4S. This will be a T-marked flattop upper with two 1/2" picatinny mini-risers, a single top picatinny rail milled gas block, 16" chromed barrel w/birdcage, M4 feedramps, oval double heat shield forend with QD swivel and swivel/bipod stud installed. Also included in this model is the Magpul Enhanced trigger guard and the 6 position telestock. Our next carbine is our "loaded" version, the D-M4LX. T-marked flattop upper with YHM flip-up rear BUIS, YHM folding front BUIS gas block with bayonet lug, YHM free-float quad-rail Car length forend with swiveling sling stud, nine 5-slot low profile "ladder style" quad rail covers, 16" H-Bar chromed and fluted barrel with Phantom suppressor, M4 feedramps, Ergo Ambi grip and either the Magpul CTR or Ace M4 Socom buttstock. Fourth in the lineup will be our Match/Varmint model, the DV-24. T-marked flattop upper with two 1/2" picatinny riser blocks, 24" Match stainless steel bull barrel (1X8), free float ported aluminum tube forend with swivel/bipod stud installed, picatinny rail milled gas block, 2-stage match trigger and possibly the Ace skeleton buttstock. Last , but not least will be the "Classical" DR-15 Target model. A2 fixed handle upper, A2 buttstock, 20" H-Bar barrel with birdcage, forged front sight tower with bayonet lug and rubber coated sling swivel. All chambers are 5.56 Nato. All uppers and lowers are forged 7075-T6, hard coat anodized and teflon coated. All carrier keys are properly staked. Some nice little details are radiused mag release button and radiused trigger guard. The safety selector witness mark on the right side of the receiver is painted in red. Our Mil-Spec aluminum mags all have Magpul self-leveling followers. Little things that mean a lot yet I think you will see we will have some outstanding quality, function and accuracy at very competitive prices....

All of the above rifles will have 1:9 twist chrome-moly barrels with the exception of the the DV-24 Match/Varmint which will have a 1:8 twist in stainless steel.

The 6th model (to be fine tuned and named this weekend) will be another M4 type but will feature a T-marked flattop upper with a 16" 4150 barrel with 1:7 twist, M4 feedramps and "F" front sight base.

Having heard the majority of your comments, we will keep this build in a KISS configuration, with a minimum of additional features/extras. As many of you said, with this approach you will be able to customize this model as you prefer and not as someone in our engineering/marketing departments prefers. We will let the market tell us what it wants. If the masses want the 1:9 chrome-moly price/value approach then we will have it for them. If the Varmint or Match shooter wants the 1:8 build then we will have it, and if a segment wants as close to Mil-Spec as possible, then we will have it.

Thanks again for your input. Keep it coming as I still have this weekend to close this phase of the project.

BTW, I sent a message to Management inquiring about becoming an AR15.com Industry Partner but have not heard back yet. I don't want anyone to think we're just looking for free advertising here. We honestly want to become an active participant in this community.

I like chrome lined, but it is going to cost more and maybe one of the rifles you want to offer will be more of an entry item, and if so no chrome is ok IF it is competitive, price wise.

no opinion on the various sights

i have an ace socom, it is ok.   if you could get one to be solid without the set screws it would be much better.



oh yeah-  bayonet lug is good, no reason to take it off unless you are making a real lo profile gas block with a precision rifle

1- none

2- chrome lined 1/7 twist 5.56 chamber

3- Yes it's important

4- M4 mil-spec

Guys that would never buy a $1,200.00 AR. Have no problem buying a $800.00/ $900.00 AR and putting $300.00 / $500.00 or more into it in a year.

by the way #2 is the big one.

So my questions here: 1. In a "modular" type flattop carbine, what brand/model of BUIS would you prefer? ARMS, GG&G, Troy, YHM, LaRue? Troy is by far the best flip up.  Larue is by far the best fixed.  Either one would work very well, if you had to go with one, I'd pick the troy since alot of people prefer flip ups. 2. How important are chrome lined barrels to you when purchasing an AR type rifle/carbine? Unless its a match barrel, it is an absolute MUST.  4150 steel is a bonus, but not necessary. 3. We notice that just about every manufacturer/assembler of Carbines with 16" barrels uses a gas block with a bayonet lug, yet we understand that a bayonet cannot be used on a 16" barrel. Is the inclusion of this worthless bayonet lug important? Not necessary, but since they make them with, might as well have them.  Looks more traditional.  MAKE SURE YOU USE FORGED FSB's, and PLEASE make them to spec (IE F height, not "commercial" height. 4. What do you guys think of the ACE Skeleton stock and the ACE SOCOM stock? We are intending to include the skeleton on our Varmint model and the SOCOM on our "modular" model. What do you think? I'd rather have a standard stock.  Alot of people don't like ACE, and making them standard equipment (which means added cost) would make alot of buyers look elsewhere.  I for one would replace it almost immediately with a VLTOR, LMT sopmod, or with a standard mil-spec M4 stock.  BTW, PLEASE use mil-spec tubes whatever you do. Arfcommers really appreciate rifles that are as close as military spec as possible.  Good anodizing, milspec stocks, FSB's, and BCG components will go a LONG way.  Proper staking, MP testing, and all the other little things really help out to boost the image of the company and the products it sells.