User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 3/23/2019 2:55:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By togadelic: I like it what are the pros and cons of putting sling on this way that I see throughout this thread? what specific slings are you guys using for this |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 3/23/2019 4:54:56 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Miami_JBT:
It isn't an AR but it is a carbine. 
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1102-4.jpg Israel; a nation born from and a people forged by conflict, bloodshed, and hardship. Originally a backwater in the Ottoman Empire and later a crucial part of the British Empire. The region we know today as the Nation of Israel was born on May 14, 1948. But how did that happen? Well, let's go back a couple of years. At the end of World War II, the British Empire was crumbling. They were economically ruined from the war and didn't have the political or economic strength to keep their colonies in check. The Yishuv (Jewish residents of the area prior to the creation of Israeli State) in an attempt to strengthen home rule actively recruited and smuggled European Jews fleeing the horrors after the Holocaust. Many tried to reach Palestine but many were turned away or rounded up and placed in detention camps in Atlit and Cyprus by the British Government since the Empire wanted to keep the peace in the region. Prior to WWII and after, Jewish immigration to the region was a contentious issue for the British since the local Arab populations were not in favor of more Jewish neighbors. Even though Jews assisted the British to conquer the area from the Ottomans even even helped suppress Arab revolt against British rule in the 1920s. By the immediate post war period, the Crown simply wanted peace in the region. The Jews in Europe and in the Holy Land wanted home rule and a place to call their own. Two groups, the Haganah and the Irgun (the forerunners to the Israeli Defense Forces) launched an attack on the British administrative headquarters for Palestine on July 22, 1946. A total of 91 people of various nationalities were killed, 46 were injured, and the location was also he site of the Secretariat of the Government of Palestine and the Headquarters of the British Armed Forces in Palestine and Transjordan. At the time, it was considered one of the "most lethal terrorist incidents of the twentieth century." The end result was that in 1947, the British announced they would withdraw from Palestine in a short time frame, stating it was unable to arrive at a solution acceptable to both Arabs and Jews. The newly formed United Nations stepped in and attempted to split the region between Jewish and Arab residents. On May 15, 1948; the armies of four Arab countries (Egypt, Syria, Transjordan and Iraq) entered what had been British Mandatory Palestine, launching the 1948 ArabIsraeli War. A hard and brutal conflict was fought. But the end result was Israeli victory. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1103-4-768x1175.jpg The newly formed Israeli government was short on funds and worse, short on arms. Prior to the establishment of the IDF, the Haganah and the Irgun used whatever they could get their hands on. British Enfields, American M1 Carbines, Italian Carcanos, etc. They'd buy them from friendly supporters, smuggle them in, and out right steal them if they had to. The war thought them an important lesson. They needed to standardize. Being that the newly formed nation was also poor at the time, they couldn't go and buy the upcoming latest and greatest designs just yet. But this was the later 1940s. Europe was awash in arms, German 98k Mausers to be exact. The Germans in their short lived expansionist era set up a number of arms plants in the occupied territories scattered across Europe. One of the largest was in Czechoslovakia. A nation with a long history of arms production, Czechoslovakia was converted to crank out Masuers for the Third Reich. After the war, the Czechs and Slovaks were hurting for work and had an ample supply of parts, machinery, and the skilled labor to make rifles. Thus, a business deal was struck and the rest is history. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1105-2.jpg Israel bought rifles from Czechoslovakia and other European nations through surplus sales and contracted with FN Herstal of Belgium to make brand new Masuers. By 1954-1955, Israeli was looking to update their front-line units with FN's new darling, the FN FAL. Israel had an issue. What to do with the thousands of Masuers and 7.92x57mm ammo they had? They could keep them original and have two separate supply lines of arms and munitions to equip front-line troops and reservists or they could convert the Mausers to 7.62x51mm NATO and make ammunition logistics far easier. They went with the logical answer. They converted the Mausers of course! Starting in 1956 and not officially ending until the cessation of hostilities of the 1973 Yom Kippur War. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/20181208_135743-770x160.jpg Israeli converted Masuers were reworked from top to bottom. The rifles were stripped down to their basic components and anything not serviceable was thrown away. Keeping rifles original by serial number was not a concern for the IDF. Everything was literally simply thrown into large parts bins and when rifles were being rebuilt, parts were pulled and rifles were assembled. In fact, every collector guide states that if you run across a serial matching Israeli Mauser. It is a fake. The Bolt and Receiver might match, but everything else sure won't. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/20181208_135228-768x576.jpg The Israelis made brand new barrels, new internal magazines, and new front sights due to the different ballistics with the 7.62x51mm NATO. If the stock was not serviceable, newly manufactured breechwood ones were used. The Israelis also scrapped the cleaning rod and the new stocks didn't even have a provision for them since the IDF issued a pull through cleaning kit for the FN FAL. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1111.jpg IDF Issued Cleaning Kit. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/20181208_135639-768x660.jpg A common myth associated with the Israeli Mausers is that the IDF purposefully struck any Waffenamt markings, thus purifying the rifle of any Nazi connection. This isn't the case. A number of WaA markings are found intact on my rifle and others I've seen and handled. But one fact that is true, all converted Masuers had 7.62 marked on the receiver to clearly alert the shooter that the gun is not chambered in the older 7.92x57mm. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/20181208_135145-768x576.jpg https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/20181208_135725-770x361.jpg The Israeli Masuer saw service in the Israeli War of Independence of 1948, the 19511956 Retribution Operations,the Suez Campaign of 1956, the Six Day War of 1967, and finally the Yom Kippur War of 1973. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1104-3.jpg In the Six Day War, the FN FAL was the front-line standard for the IDF, but the numerous reservists called to active duty were issued the Masuers. This was the last large scale use of the Mauser. to see combat action. It served with distinction alongside the FN FAL and Uzi SMG. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1106-1-768x519.jpg IDF soldier with FN FAL. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1107-1.jpg IDF in combat with Mauser Rifle. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1108.jpg IDF in combat with Mauser Rifle. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1109-1.jpg IDF at the Western Wall wih Uzi SMG. By 1973 and the Yom Kippur War, the Masuer was only assigned to rear communication specialists as a defensive weapon. After the war, they were pulled from service and mostly given to Guatemala as military aid. Israel and Guatemala have always had a close relationship due to the small Central American county being the tie breaking vote to admit Israel into the United Nations. The Guatemalans rode the Masuers hard and put them away wet. You can tell an Israeli surplussed gun versus a Guatemalan one due to the condition. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1110-1.jpg Typical Guatemalan Condition My rifle is a Czech built gun. With a 1944 dated receiver and a near mint re-arsenal overhaul. I got mine around the 1999/2000 time frame. In fact it was the first gun I purchased with my own money. In fact, I got mine at the Fort Lauderdale Gun Show, the very one the Gun Grabbers recently shut down. I worked hard and saved up my pennies for a military grade rifle in .30-06 Springfield or .308 Winchester. I was hankering a M1903 and ran across one at a table. The vendor had it priced at $300 and poor teenage me couldn't afford it. I saw plenty of Mausers but didn't want one since they were in 7.92x57mm and I didn't want to buy and stockpile another chambering. But luck shined upon me, the vendor that had the M1903 also had an Israeli Mauser for $225 and was willing throw in 500rds of surplus 7.62 NATO. I had a budget of $250 and was set. There was a loud BANG! when wallet broke the sound barrier. I took the rifle home and since then I've enjoyed it. Between my time when I reenacted WWII Partisan or took part in local rifle matches. My Mauser trucked right along. As I grew older, my Mauser migrated from the front of my safe to the back. But but it was never forgotten. A real treat with my Mauser happened with an elderly neighbor I had in Miami. He was a veteran of the 1948 Israeli War and retired from the IDF right before the Six Day War and moved to sunny South Florida. We always saw me loading up and going to the range and asked one day what I had. When he saw the Mauser, he suddenly opened up and went back to being a young man in the IDF fighting for Israel's freedom. He told me about how he was tired, scared, and hungry. But full of hope and pride with the belief that his sacrifice would be for the betterment of his people. I could tell with the glint in his eyes that he remembered carrying a Mauser just like mine and sure enough. He remembered when he shot it at the range. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/20181208_135704-770x194.jpg In the end, these rifles are a gem to have. They tell a story of hardship, struggle, and rebirth. A rifle originally made by a government set to eradicate a specific people were then used by those people to gain independence and then used to secure their freedom. It really is an amazing story and they proudly belong in anyone's armory of liberty. Mine sure is a beaut and a hell of a shooter. If you run across a nice conditioned Israeli Masuer, give her a good home and some range time. You'll be surprised with a smile. Trust me. https://cdn0.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/1112.jpg To all of our Jewish members in America, Israel, and across the world. חנוכה שמח – Happy Hanukkah! thank you jbt |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/26/2019 12:50:04 PM EDT
[#3]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/27/2019 11:37:56 AM EDT
[#4]
|
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 3/27/2019 11:53:42 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MNRidesHonda:
https://i.imgur.com/m9lyC0k.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2fmRnt5.jpg https://i.imgur.com/kHZRXGe.jpg https://i.imgur.com/JorK6kj.jpg |
|
|
|
Posted: 3/28/2019 2:41:11 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Armed_Philosopher:
Beautiful! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Armed_Philosopher:
Originally Posted By MNRidesHonda:
https://i.imgur.com/m9lyC0k.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2fmRnt5.jpg https://i.imgur.com/kHZRXGe.jpg https://i.imgur.com/JorK6kj.jpg |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/29/2019 12:26:15 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By MNRidesHonda:
https://i.imgur.com/m9lyC0k.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2fmRnt5.jpg https://i.imgur.com/kHZRXGe.jpg https://i.imgur.com/JorK6kj.jpg #WINNING |
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 3/29/2019 2:25:07 PM EDT
[#8]
Here's my KISS pistol. I have around $550 into it not including optics or lights.
Not sure on the upper make, but it's a 11.5" HBAR. I bought it from a local shop (LE Trade-in). It came complete with BCG and CH with no sighs of use. It's a shooter. The lower is an Aero with a BCM LPC. I put an M-Lok pic section on the top of the hand guard and threw on a Haley Strategic mount and mini surefire scout I had laying around. The ranger band is for looks.
Anyway, it's fun. 
With some 1.5x magnification 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/29/2019 5:25:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -GuNuT-:
Here's my KISS pistol. I have around $550 into it not including optics or lights. Not sure on the upper make, but it's a 11.5" HBAR. I bought it from a local shop (LE Trade-in). It came complete with BCG and CH with no sighs of use. It's a shooter. The lower is an Aero with a BCM LPC. I put an M-Lok pic section on the top of the hand guard and threw on a Haley Strategic mount and mini surefire scout I had laying around. The ranger band is for looks.
Anyway, it's fun. https://i.imgur.com/qh9lokP.jpg With some 1.5x magnification https://i.imgur.com/7NGviAu.jpg |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 3/30/2019 7:46:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: mike_nds]
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By lew:
I want to build an IDF clone- 16" pencil barrel, bayonet lug FSB, CAR handguards, A1 upper (preferably no forward assist), early-style CAR stock. This a bit outside my wheelhouse, so where are the best sources for these parts? Brownells has blem A1 uppers/lowers quite frequently. They also have a 12.7" pencil barrel that would be perfect for a Menusar style SBR build. 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/3/2019 5:41:46 PM EDT
[#11]
My soon to be born daughter and my reliable 20" A2 Bushy...
 She is getting that and everything else the wife and I own.
|
|
|
|
GA, USA
|
Posted: 4/4/2019 11:58:51 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -GuNuT-:
Here's my KISS pistol. I have around $550 into it not including optics or lights. Not sure on the upper make, but it's a 11.5" HBAR. I bought it from a local shop (LE Trade-in). It came complete with BCG and CH with no sighs of use. It's a shooter. The lower is an Aero with a BCM LPC. I put an M-Lok pic section on the top of the hand guard and threw on a Haley Strategic mount and mini surefire scout I had laying around. The ranger band is for looks.
Anyway, it's fun. https://i.imgur.com/qh9lokP.jpg With some 1.5x magnification https://i.imgur.com/7NGviAu.jpg |
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 4/4/2019 11:20:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BrandonP]
[#13]
FWIW, IDF clone doesn't have to be totally KISS.
This was my issued M4 (no white light) 
Pulling security in the West Bank. Hadn't showered in a week and we ran out of food and water. That's not camo, that's rings of sweat. 
View of that particular trouble spot through the ACOG. Gotta look under the dirt if you want to find where they hide the guns/stolen equipment/money. 
Leaving base was pretty clutch...only thing I miss about that place is the food. 
When it got dark, I wasn't exactly kicking doors. 
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 4/5/2019 10:34:23 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BrandonP:
FWIW, IDF clone doesn't have to be totally KISS. This was my issued M4 (no white light) https://i.imgur.com/TeQHFMx.jpg Pulling security in the West Bank. Hadn't showered in a week and we ran out of food and water. That's not camo, that's rings of sweat. https://i.imgur.com/ojYfU2N.jpg View of that particular trouble spot through the ACOG. Gotta look under the dirt if you want to find where they hide the guns/stolen equipment/money. https://i.imgur.com/Iu8CXmO.jpg Leaving base was pretty clutch...only thing I miss about that place is the food. https://i.imgur.com/EqmwBCH.jpg When it got dark, I wasn't exactly kicking doors. https://i.imgur.com/smVDLkp.jpg |
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 4/5/2019 8:48:06 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Armed_Philosopher: Thanks for your service. Lone soldier? 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/5/2019 8:59:35 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BrandonP:
FWIW, IDF clone doesn't have to be totally KISS. This was my issued M4 (no white light) https://i.imgur.com/TeQHFMx.jpg Pulling security in the West Bank. Hadn't showered in a week and we ran out of food and water. That's not camo, that's rings of sweat. https://i.imgur.com/ojYfU2N.jpg View of that particular trouble spot through the ACOG. Gotta look under the dirt if you want to find where they hide the guns/stolen equipment/money. https://i.imgur.com/Iu8CXmO.jpg Leaving base was pretty clutch...only thing I miss about that place is the food. https://i.imgur.com/EqmwBCH.jpg When it got dark, I wasn't exactly kicking doors. https://i.imgur.com/smVDLkp.jpg |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/10/2019 5:08:06 PM EDT
[#17]
|
|
|
|
IL, USA
|
Posted: 4/10/2019 5:45:15 PM EDT
[#18]
Does anyone know who makes some rail sections that fit CAR handguards and keeps the heatshield? I picked up some Magpul MOE polymer rail sections and not only do the hole's not line up on the small 5 slot rail section to the front of my DSA CAR handguards, but it does not allow for the heat shield to be installed. I'd rather not modify the handguards themselves.
Looking at getting an IDF look going but I don't wanna keep spending money testing rail sections lol |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/10/2019 7:03:42 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Willmar]
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Kvjavs:
Does anyone know who makes some rail sections that fit CAR handguards and keeps the heatshield? I picked up some Magpul MOE polymer rail sections and not only do the hole's not line up on the small 5 slot rail section to the front of my DSA CAR handguards, but it does not allow for the heat shield to be installed. I'd rather not modify the handguards themselves. Looking at getting an IDF look going but I don't wanna keep spending money testing rail sections lol https://zahal.org/product/fab-defense-ar15-double-offset-picatinny-rail-systems-dpr-164/ https://zahal.org/product/fab-defense-tactical-polymer-tri-rail-handguard-for-m4-ar15-variants/ https://zahal.org/product/fab-defense-tactical-universal-picatinny-rail-for-m16-ar15-variants/ ETA: the first one does work with the heat shield. |
|
|
|
GA, USA
|
Posted: 4/11/2019 6:59:33 AM EDT
[#20]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/11/2019 10:13:19 AM EDT
[#21]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/11/2019 10:05:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mech4matsnova]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BrandonP:
FWIW, IDF clone doesn't have to be totally KISS. This was my issued M4 (no white light) https://i.imgur.com/TeQHFMx.jpg Pulling security in the West Bank. Hadn't showered in a week and we ran out of food and water. That's not camo, that's rings of sweat. https://i.imgur.com/ojYfU2N.jpg View of that particular trouble spot through the ACOG. Gotta look under the dirt if you want to find where they hide the guns/stolen equipment/money. https://i.imgur.com/Iu8CXmO.jpg Leaving base was pretty clutch...only thing I miss about that place is the food. https://i.imgur.com/EqmwBCH.jpg When it got dark, I wasn't exactly kicking doors. https://i.imgur.com/smVDLkp.jpg Thanks for your service. Why no white light? Also, why the tape over your ACOG fiber? Can you go into some detail about common rifle and equipment setups for IDF infantry(and why it works)? |
|
|
|
GA, USA
|
Posted: 4/12/2019 6:33:59 AM EDT
[#23]
Not OP, but I believe the tape is meant to "dim" the fiber optics so the reticle isn't washed out in bright sunlight.
|
|
|
TX, USA
|
Posted: 4/14/2019 8:01:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jeremywills]
[#24]
My recently built KISS .22lr that closely resembles a 723/IDF carbine. I might tweak a few things at a later date but for now I'm happy with this. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/15/2019 7:10:34 PM EDT
[#25]
My latest build.... a 16" midlength pencil barrel. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/15/2019 9:05:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mech4matsnova]
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Miami_JBT:
https://i.imgur.com/lWjM2G1.jpg My latest build.... a 16" midlength pencil barrel. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/15/2019 11:00:51 PM EDT
[#27]
|
|
|
|
SC, USA
|
Posted: 4/16/2019 5:40:36 AM EDT
[#28]
Any luck tracking down the manufacture of those new idf stocks?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2019 6:08:57 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mech4matsnova:
How do you like the pencil middy on a A2 upper w/fixed stock? I'm very seriously considering this or a dissipator for my next upper for Hurricanedefense(already have the A2 upper, trying to decide on gas system/sight radius, wondering if its worth it to have the ability to mount a M7/9 bayonet). Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mech4matsnova:
Originally Posted By Miami_JBT:
https://i.imgur.com/lWjM2G1.jpg My latest build.... a 16" midlength pencil barrel. |
|
|
|
OK, USA
|
Posted: 4/16/2019 7:33:47 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ck2020:
Any luck tracking down the manufacture of those new idf stocks? |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 4/16/2019 7:41:57 AM EDT
[#31]
ok, building a idf/kiss rifle with a 604 style upper and colt socom barrel. have everything I need except the a1 grip and idf handguard bands (have the slings as I use them on other rifles as they are my favorite). where are you guys getting the handguard bands and stock sling velcro piece?
|
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 4/16/2019 10:11:09 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By myhatinthering:
ok, building a idf/kiss rifle with a 604 style upper and colt socom barrel. have everything I need except the a1 grip and idf handguard bands (have the slings as I use them on other rifles as they are my favorite). where are you guys getting the handguard bands and stock sling velcro piece? |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/16/2019 9:08:08 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By myhatinthering:
ok, building a idf/kiss rifle with a 604 style upper and colt socom barrel. If you don't find an A1 grip, let me know. |
|
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 4/23/2019 11:46:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BrandonP]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mech4matsnova: @BrandonP Thanks for your service. Why no white light? Also, why the tape over your ACOG fiber? Can you go into some detail about common rifle and equipment setups for IDF infantry(and why it works)? White light was an issued equipment thing. We weren't actually issued them, which is a shame. My first leave home I picked one up - oldschool Surefire G2 with a (then, it was the hottest shit around) Malkoff drop-in CREE led. SOP was to tape a foot powder lid to fit on the front so if it NDd it wouldn't give away your position (me on left...other guy was a Dutch volunteer...he's 6'4). 
Tape on the ACOG dims out the reticle so it's more usable. Much bigger deal in bright desert sunlight and SOP for zeroing was to tape it completely so the reticle is sharper. Would love to get my hands on a donut of doom ACOG now...the IDF rangefinding reticle is more useful to me than the call-for-artillery lines which would have been useless to someone who was more of a liability trying to speak Hebrew over the radio. Currently I understand the IDF has moved to the tavor so this will be kinda dated (07-09), but rifle setups kind of evolved with the soldier. First, they'd get an M16 short during basic training, which was basically a sawed off 13-16" M16A1 with no optic. At some point prior to advanced training, they'd get a Meprolight 21. Guys complained about these things constantly...the reticle would wash out because of sand and dust. It also didn't help that the reticle was the same color as most of the background especially around the training environments. You had to wash the hell out of them to get them to shine...then again a lot of M21s were literally missing part of the metal protective housing and still ran and held zero so take that for what you will. At the tail end of basic, after M16 week (a week of shooting a couple thousand rounds through an M16 short), you'd receive your "pakal." Shitbirds got something like "pakal mayim" (water) or "pakal alunkah" (stretcher). If you were a big boy, you'd get the FN MAG. If you were fast and strong, you'd get the Negev LMG. If you could shoot worth fuckall (which excluded Israelis in a hilarious ratio - nearly all of us were American) you were given "calah," or designated marksman. If I remember correctly, the final test was 10 rounds, 25 meters, at a zeroing target, prone position with 10 jumping jacks in between...so you did your jumping jacks, you got into prone, you fired, then you got up and did your jumping jacks, etc., and they had to group under a certain criterion. This was followed by a fitness test that involved running up and down hills in kit, and an obstacle course. We were issued initially M4s ("flat tops") with no BUIS, bipods, and Litton Akilah scopes (4x gen 3 night vision rifle scopes) on ARMS mounts and ACOGs, also on ARMS mounts. These were interchangeable and we assumed they would hold zero. Later in my deployment we traded the Akilah for much smaller "Lior" 3x NV rifle scopes which were nice to carry but not as good for their intended role. Let me just say that cleaning practices were fucking abysmal. Once every couple days we'd dunk the rifles in "solar" which I understand to be gasoline, then wipe them down with newspaper. Other than that, it was "shemen" (fat, or oil) on the BCG. During inspections, we'd ram a sectional steel cleaning rod down the bore to "clean" the barrel...literally one patch for an entire squad. Bore brushes didn't exist. We still had no problem hitting head-sized targets at 300m with the ACOG and using the 4x or 3x NV riflescopes (combat-ish conditions) but I wouldn't want to take these rifles to a bench rest competition. In addition to that light, I brought a boresnake back with me from home for obvious reasons...that's still the extent of cleaning I do today on ARs - bore snake it a few times with solvent, that's it. Seemed to work fine for working guns. Back to your question and I apologize for the wall of text, stuff in the IDF wasn't really issued outside of optics and bipods. Guys got it from friends, relatives, knowing a guy who knew a guy, and bartering or stealing shit from the neshkiah (arms guy). Big broom handle vertical foregrips were common. Surefire G2s found their way onto soldiers' rifles lord knows how. Some of us brought stuff from abroad but that practice was ridiculed by Israelis because "you shouldn't spend money for the army" - they have (or at least had) a bias against spending personal funds on kit. Regarding the "why it works" portion, generally night vision gear was in short supply so there's no reason to issue lasers to everybody. Since most guys don't have NVGs, and don't need lasers, there's no reason to issue rails. This means that most of the rifles are very basic and light, and generally used optics that don't require batteries for logistical reasons. These logistics problems are a big deal - one of us...maybe me...was involved in an incident that could easily have been avoided by sourcing 2 AA batteries for night vision...but ended up resulting in some poor fucking cow getting sprayed with about 40 rounds of 7.62x51 out of an FN MAG at about 50 meters. The setups you tend to see aren't really the best thing for the job...they're really a product of the fact lots of people need rifles, and nice gear costs money. I've taken a liking to these types of lightweight minimalist setups that omit rails for integrated optics (like the MARS sights that integrate IR laser and red dot) but they're a lot less durable. For example, we were issued Harris bipods screwed into the handguards...managed to pop that sucker off several times while going prone but only broke one. We (Americans) tend to over-build everything and the cost is weight and money...they tend to push the bare minimum to get the job done and it ends up being lighter, streamlined and cheap, but less durable. |
|
|
USA
|
Posted: 4/23/2019 11:57:56 PM EDT
[#35]
wow, that's a wall of text that's actually an interesting read! thanks for typing all of that in. good stuff, real world.
|
|
|
OH, USA
|
Posted: 4/24/2019 3:09:14 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By rpoL98:
wow, that's a wall of text that's actually an interesting read! thanks for typing all of that in. good stuff, real world. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/24/2019 7:07:31 AM EDT
[#37]
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it almost sounds like a lot of IDF troops aren't too concerned regarding defense if they can't be bothered to learn to shoot or improve their kit.
Thanks for for the detailed insight. |
|
|
|
IL, USA
|
Posted: 4/24/2019 8:01:47 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AirRaceFan:
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it almost sounds like a lot of IDF troops aren't too concerned regarding defense if they can't be bothered to learn to shoot or improve their kit. Thanks for for the detailed insight. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/24/2019 9:19:01 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AirRaceFan:
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it almost sounds like a lot of IDF troops aren't too concerned regarding defense if they can't be bothered to learn to shoot or improve their kit. Thanks for for the detailed insight. The US Armed Forces, for all of its problems is amazingly well equipped and armed. |
|
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 4/24/2019 10:32:15 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AirRaceFan:
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it almost sounds like a lot of IDF troops aren't too concerned regarding defense if they can't be bothered to learn to shoot or improve their kit. Thanks for for the detailed insight. As for kit, I guess the moral of the story is you just don't need a fancy free float rail and a sub-MOA rifle to kill people. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/24/2019 11:06:23 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BrandonP: They get plenty of training in marksmanship, but it makes more sense to send natural shooters to the DM courses. Marksmanship is a lot more focused on shooting under stress than shooting tight groups. Everybody has to pass stress runs (run 200m, run 190 back, crawl 10 and shoot) that kinda thing. Won't hear too many stories about them making 300m shots with irons though. As for kit, I guess the moral of the story is you just don't need a fancy free float rail and a sub-MOA rifle to kill people. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/26/2019 2:37:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: mech4matsnova]
[#42]
@BrandonP
Thanks for the knowledge and insight. Were you stationed anywhere good(desireable) or get to do any really cool "non military" stuff? Are the lady soldiers as hot in person and as common as Zahal and the internet makes them out to be? Did you get to participate in any publicized actions(that you're comfortable with discussing on a public forum, opsec and all)? Do their small infantry unit tactics mirror those of the US Army/Marine Corps or do they have their own preferences(if you know, did you ever get to do joint training with foreigners is I guess what I'm trying to ask)? Again, thanks for your time(walks of txt dont bother me, I greatly appreciate the detail). ETA: please go over to the block 2 or mk18 thread and tell them you dont need all that gear to kill terrorists just for the LULZ... |
|
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 4/29/2019 11:49:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BrandonP]
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mech4matsnova:
@BrandonP Thanks for the knowledge and insight. Were you stationed anywhere good(desireable) or get to do any really cool "non military" stuff? Are the lady soldiers as hot in person and as common as Zahal and the internet makes them out to be? Did you get to participate in any publicized actions(that you're comfortable with discussing on a public forum, opsec and all)? Do their small infantry unit tactics mirror those of the US Army/Marine Corps or do they have their own preferences(if you know, did you ever get to do joint training with foreigners is I guess what I'm trying to ask)? Again, thanks for your time(walks of txt dont bother me, I greatly appreciate the detail). ETA: please go over to the block 2 or mk18 thread and tell them you dont need all that gear to kill terrorists just for the LULZ... 
Without getting into details, I currently work for Uncle Sam since I am and have always been American, and never saw it any other way. I didn't get the chance to interact with US units in the IDF, but did get the chance to attend a small units tactics course with Rangers last year. Some differences... Open area battle drills were mostly similar in regards to react to contact. Achieving stealth I'm assuming is different...during shavuah sadaut (field week) you can't waste good canteen water so we achieved camouflage by standing in a circle, pissing into the center, then rolling around in the mud til we were camouflaged. Can't waste water, but second hand water is fair game... In terms of formations of movement, US units use a wedge formation, IDF generally always uses a staggered column with two point men, Negev LMG gunner and designated marksman, both with NVGs on each flank like antennas on a bug. If I had to guess, the difference has to do with speed vs. security...the US formation is a lot safer, the IDF formation is faster on forced marches on roads. US squads are also more capable, employing base of fire and flanking at the squad level whereas the IDF only employed it at the company level (at the squad level we were basically just taught to buddy rush til we closed the gap, then throw frags, spray them, and charge). Open area work, US training is definitely levels ahead of the IDF's training as of 07-09. In IDF war games, we killed us 10/10 times. In actual conflict, the IDF uses a very recon-pull approach to combat that allows forward NCOs and junior officers to exercise a lot of initiative and the stuff we did during training literally never happened in dangerous situations because everyone knew better. That said, the IDF's training doesn't even compare at the squad level. Closed area battle drills (enter a building, clear a room) were very different. US units generally approach buildings as a whole much more methodically whereas IDF units have buildings they'll enter, and buildings they'll level. If we had no reason to enter a building, SOP was to surround it and either bulldoze it or destroy it with LAWs. My understanding was that US units will clear it, but that's not informed outside of this course with the Rangers. In terms of room-to-room clearing, there are very different approaches. The IDF approach was to clear the room as much as possible without making entry and, if there was contact, either kill the enemy with grenades or pull back and level the building. Their approach is very aggressive in terms of collateral and ends up employing lots of pieing corners and minimizing exposure. The Rangers' approach to clearing rooms was very dynamic - basically, kick the door and flood the room with as many personnel as possible, as quickly as possible, relying on shock to overwhelm enemy in the rooms. Honestly, I think that's a huge assumption...after you kick that first door, the element of surprise is questionable. The reasons for these differences I chalk up to architectural differences in the AO - the IDF approach to pieing corners only works as long as those walls offer cover, and Arab homes are made of rebar-reinforced cinderblock. The US has a lot of expeditionary elements that have to deploy literally anywhere, so you have to train assuming that interior walls will be made of sheet rock and only provide concealment so you aren't really any safer outside of the room than you are inside. Just some observations on the training differences. Again, wall of text, if a mod tells me to fuck off that's fine just trying to answer questions in the most appropriate thread - where the logic behind these weapons comes from :) For pics, I'm taking my oldschool IDF carbine to a class in early May, we'll see how it goes. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2019 6:42:28 AM EDT
[#44]
@BrandonP
Thanks again for the insight, and your bar adventures: nice. A few more questions: As far as your individual weapon, I see you have a MARS sight. How do you like it compared to other domestically produced optics(Trijicon, Mepro, etc) and how do your optics compare to common US optics(Aimpoint, eotech, etc)? Are optics more common now? What other accessories do you consider common or widely used(for the cloners)? Is there a standard carbine setup for infantry, and do setups vary from unit to unit or mos to mos? How much leeway do you have to make changes to your setup(I know you said you get some ridicule for spending money but do you have any company provided options?) How common are the older guns in frontline service(fixed carry handle or full 20" bbl)? Lastly, when you look through this thread do you laugh at our attempts to clone your gear or are we reasonably accurately copying legit setups? Thanks again for your time. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2019 7:10:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Stukas87]
[#45]
Im just happy we are finally talking about IDF stuff on this thread!
Multiple times on this thread when I have posted pics of ARs with Elbit Falcon optics many have criticized it was not a KISS rifle cause of red dot, despite thread stating IDF clone.  " />
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/1/2019 9:03:48 AM EDT
[#46]
Worst paid mercs in the world. That's funny.
So what equipment changes would you recommend to IDF, recognizing that it'd have to be general issue to conscripts? I'd love to hear a voice of experience on this. Shkoyach. |
|
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 5/5/2019 6:22:58 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mech4matsnova: As far as your individual weapon, I see you have a MARS sight. How do you like it compared to other domestically produced optics(Trijicon, Mepro, etc) and how do your optics compare to common US optics(Aimpoint, eotech, etc)? Are optics more common now? What other accessories do you consider common or widely used(for the cloners)? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mech4matsnova: As far as your individual weapon, I see you have a MARS sight. How do you like it compared to other domestically produced optics(Trijicon, Mepro, etc) and how do your optics compare to common US optics(Aimpoint, eotech, etc)? Are optics more common now? What other accessories do you consider common or widely used(for the cloners)? FWIW I did meet another American with a beat up EO that he brought from home. Imo US optics are much better. I really liked the ACOGs we were issued and one is definitely on my short list to purchase. Do really wish it was possible to get them with the IDF rangefinding reticle. If you're cloning and don't care about the reticle a TA31 donut or TA01 would be a good fit, available here and probably the best optic issued in the IDF. I did have one fill with moisture but who knows how many people abused it before me :) Oh, you'll like this- the ARMS 17 buis was in wide circulation and was called an "ohshit" as in "oh shit...my optic broke." Originally Posted By mech4matsnova:
Is there a standard carbine setup for infantry, and do setups vary from unit to unit or mos to mos? How much leeway do you have to make changes to your setup(I know you said you get some ridicule for spending money but do you have any company provided options?) How common are the older guns in frontline service(fixed carry handle or full 20" bbl)? Lastly, when you look through this thread do you laugh at our attempts to clone your gear or are we reasonably accurately copying legit setups? Thanks again for your time. The standard loadout was an m16 short or m4 with a mepro m21. Some guys got MARS units (platoon sgt had one for example), designated marksmen got ACOGs and night scopes with Harris bipods. Fireteam leaders got an m4 with an m203 and night sight based on occlusion for it. Those things were deadly btw. You can pretty much add whatever you want though since nobody really knows where it comes from anyway. Stuff gets handed down from friends, older brother, etc. Armory had some gear too but rarely handed it out as far as I know. Special units were much better equipped with old US surplus like peq2as and the old insight lam modules. I don't look down on anybody for building clones. These are cool serviceable builds that are lightweight and rugged. The LMT M4 I posted above wasn't necessarily intended to be a clone but just ended up that way. I like the simplicity of having everything off of the handguard. It makes for a pretty light handy rifle that runs on a few AAs and is compatible with NVGs. Best thing you can do for authenticity is to give it the old maiden flight down the driveway! |
|
|
PA, USA
|
Posted: 5/5/2019 6:38:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BrandonP]
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By chapperjoe:
Worst paid mercs in the world. That's funny. So what equipment changes would you recommend to IDF, recognizing that it'd have to be general issue to conscripts? I'd love to hear a voice of experience on this. Shkoyach. Another thing they do swimmingly is web gear. If you can get your hands on an IDF vest to try on, you'll feel what I mean - they're incredibly comfortable even in the prone because they use 2 types of foam between your body and the mags. New designs I've seen put the weight of the vest on your hips, which is nice. Generally we carried 7 mags + a mag full of tracers and a pair of grenades (number 26s I think?) And the vests had tons of spare room but weren't modular. I did like them a lot. Some guys had custom made vests which followed the same basic pattern. Body armor was in short supply. We had flak jackets (not iiia...I mean like Vietnam style flak jackets) issued for shrapnel and slash protection but rarely wore them. I was briefly issued rifle plates (the IDF plates have partial side wrap but are very heavy) but never wore them since my job involved a lot of running. I have no idea if that's still an issue. At the time it seemed by design...the IDF generally emphasizes march speed and distance over force protection which arguably makes sense given their needs. The helmets were a mix of locally produced helmets (light but probably poor protection) and PASGT helmets. In terms of equipment they had (or have) serious issues with logistics related to batteries and night vision was in short supply. They were good about supplying it to people who had dm roles and negev lmg guys...we all had NV equipment but there were several guys issued pvs7s with no way to aim while wearing them. Platoon sgt and other junior officers generally had monocular and IR lasers so the units were around just not in the quantity needed to equip everyone. Our company level heavy weapons were also pretty poor. M72 LAW was the most common and for a while we issued captured Egyptian RPGs but those were gone by the time I got there. No SMAW, no javelin. I never used a mortar but they seemed to be a lightweight design. The m2s, mk19s and MAGs we had were all old as shit and many had issues. I suspect this was the norm as we were actually one of the better equipped line units, by far the best equipped battalion in the brigade. The uniforms were cotton and tore very easily. I think construction was pretty poor and they didnt have enough pockets imo. Modding them was super common. A lot of guys removed all the shirt buttons and sewed the front up so they wouldn't grind on your skin during long matches. Guys wore fleeces but often wore dark brown US surplus sweaters as well. Other guys had "friends of the IDF" fleeces which were a different color. This can create IFF issues for sure. Generally we wore mitznafot (big baggy helmet covers) and those were really good for camouflage. Love those things. All in all, they suffer from money problems. We generally had rough equipment in infantry. Meanwhile the Air Force had swimming pool and other comforts...it was clear that the Air Force gets the lion's share of the money in israel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/6/2019 9:43:00 PM EDT
[#49]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/6/2019 9:44:56 PM EDT
[#50]
|
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File
Attached File