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Posted: 9/7/2024 1:11:53 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mobiushky: For starters, so as not to give the wrong impression, I am not nor have I ever been military. I've never seen combat. All I have experience with is competition shooting, specifically 3-Gun. I've been shooting 3-gun for nearly 10 years now. And I'm a mid-pack shooter, not the best. With all that firmly stated, your statement is exactly what more people who buy firearms etc need to rememeber. I will never be a door kicker. I'll never go down range. My specific set of circumstances means that my rifles will at best be used to defend myself, my family and my home. The most combat scenario I'm likely to face is going to be around my home and worst case rioters. (That's not likely because I'm pretty rural too.) SO, what optic is "combat ready" to me is different from what might be to someone else. If the intent of the initial question is to delve into the role of military combat readiness, I think that's been beat to death, but it's been an interesting read. If the intent is average joe self-defense readiness.... I'd say more than ready. I know competition shooting is not anywhere near the battlefield and would never think to compare them. But competition may be closer to the actual "crucible" of the average joe's expectation for "combat". Many competition stages are designed to replicate potential self-defense/home defense scenarios. We abuse our gear in competition. Maybe not military infantry privates abuse, but they get their fair share of being dropped and thrown. I've broken rifles in competition. I've competed with red dots, eotechs, and LPVOs. The king on the competition circuit is the LPVO. Period. Even in the open divisions it's LPVO (with a 45 deg offset red dot). This is in NO WAY intended to imply that these optics are ready for anything and every possibility. BUT, they are more stout than some in this thread give credit for. I've dumped my rifle so hard in a dump box that the aluminum magnification throw lever broke off. The LPVO stayed zeroed. A good LPVO can take enough abuse that the "Tony's" and the other average joes will be fine with them if they are needed for defense. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mobiushky: Originally Posted By TonyAngel: All I'm looking for is an LPVO that is "Tony ready." For starters, so as not to give the wrong impression, I am not nor have I ever been military. I've never seen combat. All I have experience with is competition shooting, specifically 3-Gun. I've been shooting 3-gun for nearly 10 years now. And I'm a mid-pack shooter, not the best. With all that firmly stated, your statement is exactly what more people who buy firearms etc need to rememeber. I will never be a door kicker. I'll never go down range. My specific set of circumstances means that my rifles will at best be used to defend myself, my family and my home. The most combat scenario I'm likely to face is going to be around my home and worst case rioters. (That's not likely because I'm pretty rural too.) SO, what optic is "combat ready" to me is different from what might be to someone else. If the intent of the initial question is to delve into the role of military combat readiness, I think that's been beat to death, but it's been an interesting read. If the intent is average joe self-defense readiness.... I'd say more than ready. I know competition shooting is not anywhere near the battlefield and would never think to compare them. But competition may be closer to the actual "crucible" of the average joe's expectation for "combat". Many competition stages are designed to replicate potential self-defense/home defense scenarios. We abuse our gear in competition. Maybe not military infantry privates abuse, but they get their fair share of being dropped and thrown. I've broken rifles in competition. I've competed with red dots, eotechs, and LPVOs. The king on the competition circuit is the LPVO. Period. Even in the open divisions it's LPVO (with a 45 deg offset red dot). This is in NO WAY intended to imply that these optics are ready for anything and every possibility. BUT, they are more stout than some in this thread give credit for. I've dumped my rifle so hard in a dump box that the aluminum magnification throw lever broke off. The LPVO stayed zeroed. A good LPVO can take enough abuse that the "Tony's" and the other average joes will be fine with them if they are needed for defense. A whole lot of good knowledge comes out of competition. Sure, not all of it translates to real world but much of what’s done or taught today has come from competition. Just look at the precision rifle world and all of the knowledge and tech that’s come out in the last fifteen years. That’s been largely competition driven, and what hasn’t been developed through competition has become more standardized because of competition. Again, not saying it all translates but it serves as a good test bed for things and keeps ideas from getting hidden and lost to all but a few over the years. |
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Posted: 9/7/2024 2:41:45 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1168RGR: I wiped out on a wet paved area, slowish, because I’m dumb, riding one handed with a (unloaded) rifle. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1168RGR: Originally Posted By SPTiger: Wait, was the rifle strapped to you at the time of the spill or did it just fall off a parked bike in the driveway? I can’t judge you if you’ve been riding a dirt bike on pavement. I’ve ridden mine a few miles down the road a couple times.  I wiped out on a wet paved area, slowish, because I’m dumb, riding one handed with a (unloaded) rifle. I see. I can’t believe something similar didn’t happen to me. I’ve ridden my dirt bike back to my shooting range while trying to hold an AR along the top of the handlebars. Very stupid thing to do. |
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Posted: 9/8/2024 6:21:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1168RGR]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DM1975: A whole lot of good knowledge comes out of competition. Here’s my VCOG rig. My main personally owned rifle. Notice that it has a fixed front sight as protection for the PEQ, but no crutches for the optic:  Competition rig: 
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AK, USA
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Posted: 9/8/2024 7:47:25 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DM1975: A whole lot of good knowledge comes out of competition. Sure, not all of it translates to real world but much of what’s done or taught today has come from competition. Just look at the precision rifle world and all of the knowledge and tech that’s come out in the last fifteen years. That’s been largely competition driven, and what hasn’t been developed through competition has become more standardized because of competition. Again, not saying it all translates but it serves as a good test bed for things and keeps ideas from getting hidden and lost to all but a few over the years. Agreed! Look at all of the innovations that we drive everyday in our cars that started on the racing circuit. Not a perfect analogy, but it makes the point. I think there's a common mistake that competition shooting is easy on gear. That's totally false. If you really want to know how your gear will function (and you're not active duty), try a competition and you'll see what does and doesn't actually work. |
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Posted: 9/8/2024 10:39:58 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mobiushky: Agreed! Look at all of the innovations that we drive everyday in our cars that started on the racing circuit. Not a perfect analogy, but it makes the point. I think there's a common mistake that competition shooting is easy on gear. That's totally false. If you really want to know how your gear will function (and you're not active duty), try a competition and you'll see what does and doesn't actually work. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mobiushky: Originally Posted By DM1975: A whole lot of good knowledge comes out of competition. Sure, not all of it translates to real world but much of what’s done or taught today has come from competition. Just look at the precision rifle world and all of the knowledge and tech that’s come out in the last fifteen years. That’s been largely competition driven, and what hasn’t been developed through competition has become more standardized because of competition. Again, not saying it all translates but it serves as a good test bed for things and keeps ideas from getting hidden and lost to all but a few over the years. Agreed! Look at all of the innovations that we drive everyday in our cars that started on the racing circuit. Not a perfect analogy, but it makes the point. I think there's a common mistake that competition shooting is easy on gear. That's totally false. If you really want to know how your gear will function (and you're not active duty), try a competition and you'll see what does and doesn't actually work. Right! I don’t know if LPVO’s came from the competition world directly or not but it sure helped to drive the market. Same with mil/mil scopes and good holdover reticles and ballistic apps on every phone. Just look at using tripods. We were using them years ago in the Army but it was more or less a cheap walmart tripod with a half a piece of PVC coupler or a wooden cradle we made and screwed on top. Now you have them standing 6’ tall with arca rails on more than half the rifles on the firing line. Pistol optics is another one too. |
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Posted: 9/8/2024 10:46:41 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1168RGR: Absolutely. Here’s my VCOG rig. My main personally owned rifle. Notice that it has a fixed front sight as protection for the PEQ, but no crutches for the optic:https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563710/IMG_6937-3316927.jpg Competition rig:https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563710/IMG_6934-3317054.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 1168RGR: Originally Posted By DM1975: A whole lot of good knowledge comes out of competition. Here’s my VCOG rig. My main personally owned rifle. Notice that it has a fixed front sight as protection for the PEQ, but no crutches for the optic:https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563710/IMG_6937-3316927.jpg Competition rig:https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/563710/IMG_6934-3317054.jpg I like those. I have my personal gun set up for active and passive night vision aiming. It’s a great all around rifle to have driving in the pasture or needing to thin out coyotes. Cheap mostly but it works great and is my favorite AR to shoot. I did add a Vampire head on the scout light since that picture.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/10/2024 1:01:01 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DM1975: I like those. I have my personal gun set up for active and passive night vision aiming. It’s a great all around rifle to have driving in the pasture or needing to thin out coyotes. Cheap mostly but it works great and is my favorite AR to shoot. I did add a Vampire head on the scout light since that picture. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/53155/IMG_2602_jpeg-3317162.JPG |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 12:28:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SPTiger: Well I’ve never been in the .mil, and they’re not signing up 55 year olds for combat these days, but I would like to get into the LPVO game for the gun in the pic below. I’ve got another 14.5” that has a TA31 with a piggybacked RMR, but I’d like to try a LPVO. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/41398/IMG_1249-3308235.jpg I have a very similar gun. Just put a Sig MSR Tango 1-6 on mine last weekend for under $300 new, but I did get dealer pricing on that. Haven't zeroed it yet. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 12:41:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VersaceDesertEagle: Guarantee if your rifle with your expensive LPVO slipped and fell optic first on concrete you'd be sweating bullets (no pun intended). Just be honest. If you had a heavy impact on an LPVO would you feel just as secure as if it had happened on a TA31 or Comp M4s? What makes you think an LPVO found on a M4 is less durable than MPVO or HPVO? We've been putting Leupolds, Nightforce, and S&B Short Dots on sniper rifles in the real world for a long time. They are more durable than you are wanting to admit, or you don't know any better. When I was contracting overseas, I had a red dot on my AK. I had pulled into a little FOB to hit the AAFES to get some toiletries and hit the DFAC. As I was walking out of the PX with a bag in each hand, I laid my rifle on the roof of my Surf. It slid off an hit the ground hard enough to make me hit the range that evening to verify zero. It held. It was an Aimpoint T1 on an Attero Arms mount, IIRC. Had the same thing happed a couple years later on a different contract Afghanistan and I was using a Tijicon TR24G. Same result. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 1:06:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Clan_McIntyre: What makes you think an LPVO found on a M4 is less durable than MPVO or HPVO? We've been putting Leupolds, Nightforce, and S&B Short Dots on sniper rifles in the real world for a long time. They are more durable than you are wanting to admit, or you don't know any better. When I was contracting overseas, I had a red dot on my AK. I had pulled into a little FOB to hit the AAFES to get some toiletries and hit the DFAC. As I was walking out of the PX with a bag in each hand, I laid my rifle on the roof of my Surf. It slid off an hit the ground hard enough to make me hit the range that evening to verify zero. It held. It was an Aimpoint T1 on an Attero Arms mount, IIRC. Had the same thing happed a couple years later on a different contract Afghanistan and I was using a Tijicon TR24G. Same result. My favorite is when Comp M4's hit and the power knob breaks off. Nothing says durability like not being able to turn your optic on and no etched reticle. My last deployment I had the ATACR and a shorty upper with a T2. I never used the T2 past zeroing, but it was there if I needed it. I was honestly only really worried about breaking the MAWL and i'm not sure how I didn't with the amount of flex on the rail mount and giant rotating plastic bezel. |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 1:13:44 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VersaceDesertEagle: Nope. They have a mere fraction of the durability that a good red dot or prism optic has. Also a good battery life for an LPVO is what? 150 hours? If I knew for a fact I could replace the optic easily with a good supply chain, then I wouldn't be as averse to them, but when the chips are down I'd 100% take reduced capability for something that "just works". (laughs in Trij AccPoint) |
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Posted: 9/12/2024 3:27:42 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Clan_McIntyre: I have a very similar gun. Just put a Sig MSR Tango 1-6 on mine last weekend for under $300 new, but I did get dealer pricing on that. Haven't zeroed it yet. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Clan_McIntyre: Originally Posted By SPTiger: Well I’ve never been in the .mil, and they’re not signing up 55 year olds for combat these days, but I would like to get into the LPVO game for the gun in the pic below. I’ve got another 14.5” that has a TA31 with a piggybacked RMR, but I’d like to try a LPVO. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/41398/IMG_1249-3308235.jpg I have a very similar gun. Just put a Sig MSR Tango 1-6 on mine last weekend for under $300 new, but I did get dealer pricing on that. Haven't zeroed it yet. I ended up getting a Leupold Mark 4 HD 1-4.5x. I had a shitload of points and gift cards for Bass Pro so I ended up paying $556 oddly enough. So, in typical Arfcom fashion I got both, ACOG and LPVO. 
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Posted: 9/13/2024 1:44:14 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VersaceDesertEagle: Guarantee if your rifle with your expensive LPVO slipped and fell optic first on concrete you'd be sweating bullets (no pun intended). Just be honest. If you had a heavy impact on an LPVO would you feel just as secure as if it had happened on a TA31 or Comp M4s? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By VersaceDesertEagle: Originally Posted By LV1976: So you're not stating fact, just your opinion or impression of what may or may not be true of LPVOs. I was pretty sure everyone here knew you were just making that up, thanks for confiming it. Like I said, this is a tech forum, not GD where you just pull stuff out of your ass. Guarantee if your rifle with your expensive LPVO slipped and fell optic first on concrete you'd be sweating bullets (no pun intended). Just be honest. If you had a heavy impact on an LPVO would you feel just as secure as if it had happened on a TA31 or Comp M4s? Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. I see a lot of Tier 1 guys running EOTECH EXPS3's with a magnifier. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 3:43:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. I see a lot of Tier 1 guys running EOTECH EXPS3's with a magnifier. I see a lot of their 1 guys running atacrs and Rangers and sf as well. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 3:59:57 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. What mount? |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 4:05:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By HighpowerRifleBrony: What mount? Primary Arms Deluxe AR-15 Scope Mount - 30mm Mount was tightened to spec and blue loctited. It was the internals that shifted zero. I re-zeroed immediately after the fall and the optic still works. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 4:55:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 45-Seventy]
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. I see a lot of Tier 1 guys running EOTECH EXPS3's with a magnifier. Just saying “Primary Arms LPVO” doesn’t tell anyone if it’s quality or not. I’m guessing it’s not because if it was a PLx you would have mentioned it. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 7:14:50 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Just saying “Primary Arms LPVO” doesn’t tell anyone if it’s quality or not. I’m guessing it’s not because if it was a PLx you would have mentioned it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. I see a lot of Tier 1 guys running EOTECH EXPS3's with a magnifier. Just saying “Primary Arms LPVO” doesn’t tell anyone if it’s quality or not. I’m guessing it’s not because if it was a PLx you would have mentioned it. Primary Arms SLx 1-8x24mm SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS-5.56/5.45/.308 Per their website "All SLx optics undergo rigorous field-testing during development to best serve you in any environment." |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 7:23:22 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Primary Arms SLx 1-8x24mm SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS-5.56/5.45/.308 Per their website "All SLx optics undergo rigorous field-testing during development to best serve you in any environment." Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Originally Posted By 45-Seventy: Originally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. I see a lot of Tier 1 guys running EOTECH EXPS3's with a magnifier. Just saying “Primary Arms LPVO” doesn’t tell anyone if it’s quality or not. I’m guessing it’s not because if it was a PLx you would have mentioned it. Primary Arms SLx 1-8x24mm SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS-5.56/5.45/.308 Per their website "All SLx optics undergo rigorous field-testing during development to best serve you in any environment." I guess but like, they’re $200-300 optics too. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 9:33:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Primary Arms SLx 1-8x24mm SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS-5.56/5.45/.308 Per their website "All SLx optics undergo rigorous field-testing during development to best serve you in any environment." I mean...  Attached File |
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TN, USA
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Posted: 9/13/2024 11:00:07 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. I see a lot of Tier 1 guys running EOTECH EXPS3's with a magnifier. So you bought a cheap not quality optic and it didn’t hold zero. I’m shocked. Shocked I tell you. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 11:13:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: -OdieGreen-]
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. I see a lot of Tier 1 guys running EOTECH EXPS3's with a magnifier. More often than not zero shift from drops is the optic shifting in the mount. Cheap or expensive, it’s the most common source of issue I’ve seen from traditional scopes being dropped. For a 5.56 with a low magnification optic, I’d be surprised if most grunts would even recognize a 2MOA shift in active combat. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 11:16:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: More often than not zero shift from drops is the optic shifting in the mount. Cheap or expensive, it’s the most common source of issue I’ve seen from traditional scopes being dropped. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Originally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. I see a lot of Tier 1 guys running EOTECH EXPS3's with a magnifier. More often than not zero shift from drops is the optic shifting in the mount. Cheap or expensive, it’s the most common source of issue I’ve seen from traditional scopes being dropped. Yes. A lot of the drop tests that assess the scope, it seems like they’re testing the mount it’s in as much or more. It’s not that the scope necessarily shifted, it’s that it shifted within the mount. |
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Posted: 9/13/2024 11:48:24 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Primary Arms SLx 1-8x24mm SFP Rifle Scope - Illuminated ACSS-5.56/5.45/.308 Per their website "All SLx optics undergo rigorous field-testing during development to best serve you in any environment." So you bought a crappy, Chinese OEM optic and you’re surprised when you got crappy, Chinese OEM performance. Ok. |
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Posted: 9/14/2024 12:36:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1168RGR]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R_S: Agreed. My Primary Arms LPVO fell onto concrete and had a 2 MOA zero shift. In my experience quality combat optics don't do that. Originally Posted By 1168RGR: My (Primary Arms) PLx took a spill from a dirtbike on concrete: Best part is, it held zero, and I shot second overall (edit: no, it was third, now that I think of it) in a match that goes to 500yds with F-Types (not E-Types, but Fast Freddies) that weekend. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 11:37:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Green0]
[#26]
I used a 2-8 leupold m2 knob mrt in Iraq 04-05, and a 1-5 spr in 09. They both were dependable.
The upper the 2-8 was on, I built myself and the gun would print ~1.2moa for 3rds of m855, and that gun never needed to be re-zeroed. Prior to leaving with consumer ammo I had shot some 1/3moa three round groups with that upper. The 1-5 was on a colt m4 that shot about 4.5 moa with m855, so it wasn’t accurate enough to know if it ever wandered- ten rounds later off a bipod you would have a softball size pattern of randomly distributed rounds kind of centered on point of aim. Colt kind of murdered its relationship with the military with m4 barrels that shot like that. That was normal quality toward the end of Colt m4 production. |
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Posted: 9/24/2024 11:58:36 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Green0: I used a 2-8 leupold m2 knob mrt in Iraq 04-05, and a 1-5 spr in 09. They both were dependable. The upper the 2-8 was on, I built myself and the gun would print ~1.2moa for 3rds of m855, and that gun never needed to be re-zeroed. Prior to leaving with consumer ammo I had shot some 1/3moa three round groups with that upper. The 1-5 was on a colt m4 that shot about 4.5 moa with m855, so it wasn’t accurate enough to know if it ever wandered- ten rounds later off a bipod you would have a softball size pattern of randomly distributed rounds kind of centered on point of aim. Colt kind of murdered its relationship with the military with m4 barrels that shot like that. That was normal quality toward the end of Colt m4 production. Did you drop your optics on concrete prior to deployment? |
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