The SFAR is a phenomenal step change in weapons platform development that is an evolutionary improvement.  It achieves this by a combination of higher strength metal alloy for the bolt and barrel extension, allowing AR15 dimensioned parts for 6.5 Creedmoor level power and force.  At standard AR10 pricing (unlike boutique providers attempts).  And then apply the concept of compressing the wider magazine body BACK into the reciever. Keeping AR15 sized dimesioned reciever.

It's cool beyond words, as an engineer I'm impressed.  As a shooter, I'm in love.

Now. Next step, I want the done to the AR15.

Give me an AR15 with that technology and philosophy compressing dimensions down, for a Stribog sized 12" 6.5 Grendel AR15.  I want that.  I want a MicroFramed AR.

Here you go.

That's... far more interstimg than I was expecting...

But I have doubt that magazine system is reliable.

Still - that is definately a "well done, get yourself a juicebox" worthy of a reply.  Interesting.

I think it fails (if you ever see it at all) because of the market inertia behind the standard AR pattern receiver set.  We already see it with anything proprietary stepping outside of those bounds now.  Generally, anything that does ends up being fairly niche and low volume, and in many cases, not being on the market very long.

Even though the large frame AR segment has somewhat coalesced around the DPMS pattern receiver dimensions, it’s nowhere near what the regular AR is.  Even then, the weight and OAL/bulk are detriments that are immediately noticeable when you handle one.  Not really the case with a standard AR.

I also wonder how much length could really be chopped from the OAL of a standard AR receiver set and who is actually looking for that minimal length reduction at the expense of parts commonality.

Ultimately, I don’t see anyone trying it in the budget gun realm.  I just don’t see the market from budget gunbuyers for an “improvement” they’d likely never notice over a standard AR.  So that leaves you with niche, boutique manufacturers which usually translates to $$$.

Just my $0.02.

TBH, you probably nailed it - unfortunately.  

And it would take the likes of Ruger or PSA to give it a go, for it to actually go anywhere.  I'm not paying $3000 to PatriotBoutiqueRandomArmsLLC for it.  In fact, it's a differentiator, that I expect to pay standard comparable-gun market rate for, to bother buying it.  This is the model only Ruger (and sometimes... sometimes) PSA understand.  The market isn't willing to pay a premium, but they are willing to add to their 10 count AR15 collection, if there's something differentiating interesting, if it's the about the same price.  Ruger mastered that with the RPR, and they mastered it with the SFAR.  Basically, only they are going to master it with the MiFAR.  If Ruger (or PSA) offers it, and offers it at about the same price level as current market - I'll buy it.  Otherwise... that's probably not going to go far.   Like you said.

But that aside, technically... that's what I want.  I want a shortened reciever set, with the mag-well compressed into the trigger area, for a shorter and lighter reciever.  I want that receiver set to be smaller in width as well.  And I want the rear/tange/overhang/whatever shortened as well.  All the same compression done to the gorilla sized AR10, now down to the AR15.  That could be a really cool and tiny little gun.  But the problem there, is there are no standard sized parts one notch down from AR15.  The SFAR uses AR15 dimensioned parts.  there are no AR14 sized parts, so it would be all custom.  I want that and would buy it.  Would enough other marketshare do so?  Donno.  but then again, we are AWASH in gun manufactures (and NOT in gunpowder manufacturers )  So who knows.

The SFAR is a great improvement and allows a whole new set of midrange cartridges to be developed. I think it's ground breaking and will become very popular as time progresses. Just like the AR15 it took decades for it to become popular.
As to a small frame AR15, not too sure about that. Other than the 223 and the 22LR, small cartridges just are not that popular. Although a 22 Hornet AR15 would be very cool.

Edited for firehose of incoherent thought.

* I've had the same thought of a 85% scale "AR" utilizing the sfar/pof technique.  It's a neat concept .  85% scaled except still in a 2.26" coal cartridge and utilizing std mags .

I have a box of PPU 7.92x33 in my cartridge collection . If I reverse an SFAR to a long loaded intermediate cartridge I'll potentially have a left over bolt and bbl extension.  Since the x33 runs ~ 50ksi this might be a good place to utilize them . I have a flat-spot lower that could be rigged up for a new magazine . It wouldn't be any lighter or svelte obviously though . Just one of the possibilities that the SFAR/POF had brought about .

* x33 mags are kind of spendy so I've considered a single-stack home build for that too .

I would do it.

I think the naysayers underestimate the potential. Taking a very good rifle design and making it shorter and lighter without side effects is a huge win. Just do a bit better job with the rail and gas block than Ruger did.

Now if you are satisfied with a KISS M-4 clone type of setup and that's all you want... Those guys aren't going to care about a smaller frame AR concept.

For the SBR and pistol crowd, losing any amount of length, not in the barrel is a pretty big deal. Especially for the 5.56 SBR crowd. Get the gun toobers and military behind it and it could be a redux of the Mk18, AR pistol and PCC revolutions again. "Dude I have the new MiFAR with a 12.5" barrel and the OAL is shorter than a MK18."

For the ever increasing numbers of shooters with suppressors, and relatively big / heavy optics, and other accessories, any weight and length lost in the receiver is big money. And this seems to be the big thing right now. The SPR rifle with suppressor, LPVO, flashlight, laser, Bipod, back up RDS... It's a 8.5+lbs AR-15 for a lot of guys.

Then there's the guys obsessed with everything lightweight. They are in.

There's probably a good pound to lose . It's not like the ar10 vs ar15 that have bubbles to merge in the champagne though , as has been pointed out . Jumping to a proprietary unit that doesn't have any shared parts makes it a bit of a stretch . There are PCC builds so there is some direction possibly .

* also why I mentioned the 7.92x33 as it kinda gets into to PCC like 357 automag .

** coal between the 30 carbine and 7.92x33 is 1.68 vs 1.89

I'd like to see the tech applied to the new military caliber they're fielding. I am wondering if we'll be able to get anything, other than the sig rifle itself, that will handle the new cartridge.

Pretty sure it already is, in the new rifle.

A pound is a pretty big deal.

I just compared the 308 SFAR to the M5 and the upper receiver looks to be 1.25" shorter on the SFAR, so the length savings is less than I thought.

In my opinion, you gotta stick with 5.56 and stanag or you are DOA.

Not an engineer but I think one of the best ways would be to like a MP7 type concept. Moving the magazine into the grip (obviously would need a new mag) or something like the Desert Tech Micron would probably be the way it would have to go. Or this thinger:



I love the PDW concept. If you couldn't tell, lol.

...

All that being said it seems like the Rattler is the smallest ARish thing we can probably do without moving the magazine.

Yeah it's amazing, that's why I own four DPMS GIIs and spare wear parts to keep them running for my grandkids.  Hopefully the Ruger version takes off since PSA is sitting on the GII design for some reason.

I think many miss the entire point of this because although the SFAR looks and functions like an AR10 or AR308 it is an entirely unique weapon system.  That is the thing about the AR10 or AR308 rifles out there yes, some stuff is parts common but almost every type made is unique in some way.  The point is that like the SCAR or BREN rifles each of these systems are unique but the AR10 or AR308 rifles out there are just by appearance an AR pattern rifle but really are no different than rifles like the SCAR.  Another example is look at the LMT or LaRue offerings they are unique rifles that just so happen to have some parts commonality with other brand rifles that are similar and look like ARs.
What you are talking about with the shrinking of the AR15 pattern you are proposing a unique weapon system like the Sig MCX Spear type rifles.  Sure they have some appearance similarities with the AR pattern rifles but they are just as unique as the SCAR or BREN.  So making a SFAR-15 you are making a whole new system that will just share some parts but be a unique rifle.  The problem with some of what has been posted above is that the proposed rifle will still be an AR15 but in actuality it will be nothing more than a new weapon system that shares some parts but is unique.  Marketing it as a AR15 but trimmed or shortened might work for sales but it is still a completely unique rifle.

I think the 5.56 issue is the best bet also . That would allow maximum utilization of the aermet bolt and bbl extension as far as dimensional specs . I'd do the bbl monolithic like FM is doing with regards to the ext ... just friction weld the aermet onto the bbl blank and machine it as one piece . I'd do the upper monolithic style with an inside bbl nut so the forearm doesn't ride on the bbl nut . Lithium-aluminum billet upper and lower (why not ) . Machine the buffer tube monolithic with the lower (why not ) . Or CF buffer tube to match a potential CF handguard...

Just 85% scale all over .

Maybe some 277wolverine,  25-45 , and 20Practical bbls here and there ( because we like variants in our variant ).

- I'd also make it side-charger if it's going to be proprietary anyway

... can we keep it under $3k ?

My SFAR was less than $1K

If you don't sell it for under $1500, there's no volume of sales = death.

I would try to keep it under $1200, with a goal of $800.

If you are going to take a swing at the AR 15 market, you gotta bring innovation at affordable prices IMO. Otherwise people are just going to keep building their own or buying more proven or cheaper alternatives: Palmetto, BCM, Ruger, Colt, Daniel...

If it isn't affordable and quality, you end up like the FNC, Sigs, Jakyl, BRN, 556 SCAR...Obscure and irrelevant overpriced guns, with hard to replace proprietary parts and more limited accessories.

OK, no Lithium-aluminum or CF . Haha

I don't have anything to add - other than I am in agreement with everything you just said.

Time after time new design comes out we are all "ohhhh and ahhh" then we see the price of $2-3K then think to ourselves hmmmm I can just build 7 PSA rifles or 2-3 BCM.  
Good example is the SCAR 16s it is a really cool rifle but FNH decided it was worth the same price as the 17s or a SR-15.  I would love to have a SCAR 16s but realistically I am not going to drop 3K on a slightly better than an AR-15, harder to modify, and limited accessories available rifle.  Had the SCAR 16s come out at 1200 FN would have sold untold amounts of them or even 1500 it still would have been a bigger hit.  Many new designs the manufacture wants to make that R&D cost up before the patent runs out and especially if it does not get picked up in mass by militaries the consumer has to eat the R&D.
It will prove to be interesting as some of these non-AR rifles start losing their patents and 3rd parties can start producing them.

A 85% scale 20" .750 bbl is now 17" .635

You can already get sub 4 lb w/ existing parts.

Mill your mini lower from 0% billet.

Mill a mini-upper from billet.

Chop the back off a JP aluminum carrier.

Profit?

I thought just using the aermet bolt and ext would be nice for 6.5 grendel but that presents a challenge for commercial loads as you'd have potentially a 55ksi load and a 50ksi std load . So , I looked at the valkyrie necked up , trimmed to 40mm ....6.35x40 . The .257 and .264 are kissing cousins , more so than .243 to .257 , or .264 to .277 . The 110 eld-x is right in the "grendel" ballpark if used in a 6.35x40 at 60ksi . It wouldn't chamber in the 224valky either . Could even use the old 117gr RN . I think it'd be perfect in 85% scale sfar .

* could do a short bbl efficient version in .277

Price is definitely a factor.  Take Ruger & POF.  They both shrunk the AR-10 down, with POF being the first by years.  POF's business model is to be a boutique manufacturer and they priced it accordingly at close to $2K.  POF does build an excellent rifle, but you pay for it.  Ruger value engineered it and sold it at $1000 for the masses.  It seems to be a pretty good hit for Ruger and I hope we will see an interesting line of guns come out from them.  I hope they milk the platform like they do for everything else (think Ruger 10/22).  I'll buy $1K guns on a weekly or monthly basis.  Anything at $1.5-$2 is a yearly thing.  Anything over $2K is a 5 year purchase.  So again, price is definitely a factor.

Everyone compares the next rifle to the AR platform as the AR is an excellent starting point.  The Beretta ARX, CZ Bren, Sigs, etc. all come up short when the veer away, even if they do have some excellent features.  All the successful ones mimic the AR and just polish it up a bit.  So take the AR-15 and scale it down as much as possible.  It is limited in that is has to keep a standard cartridge to be popular and the .223 round is it.  While a .22TCM would allow for a smaller platform, you can't throw a .300 blackout in the platform.  I don't think a new cartridge would be successful unless it is a full military adopted platform.

As a side note, I think a 9mm platform with a .22TCM style cartridge is another offshoot of this idea.  An AR-9 platform built around the cartridge rather than using AR-15 parts could be a parallel project.  I believe the .22TCM was designed to work in 9mm length guns, but I haven't looked into it other than passing interest in the RIA 1911 guns.  But it might help push the roller delayed AR-9 on a budget many seek with the option of .22TCM cartridge.

Ruger jumped in with the SFAR and it wouldn't be hard to believe they looked over the AR15 with the same design concept while doing their research.  The SFAR does seem to be working out for them and was ripe fruit.  S&W needs it to push their products and maybe this could be their push.  They seem to be running behind on new stuff and their existing lines are not a huge success.  I say that even though I have quite a few S&W pistols.  But their AR line is just a rehashing of what everyone else is doing and their pistols never seem to be a hit.  A roller delayed AR-9 with a Foxtrot Mike bufferless (in the back) setup for $850 would sell like hotcakes if they didn't try to make it look like their M&P pistols.  With the brace ban dead, now would be a great time to make a brace ready pistol.  Then maybe offer .22TCM (if it does readily drop into a 9mm) and have a major manufacturer come up with some ammo options including an armor piercing round to compete with FN 5.7.  S&W knows how to go after law enforcement contracts and they could undercut FN.

Hopefully I don't get a pitchfork mob after me, but I don't know I'd want a shrunk down AR15. To be honest, I never was nearly as enthralled by the AR15 like so many others are. It's now cool for what it is. A standardized rifle thats fairly light and compact, and they are quite reliable. Because of the standardization you can mix and match, and do all kinds of cool things. Nowadays they are almost all free floated barrels (kind of),  and they have capability of accuracy beyond what most other older semi auto designs were capable of without accurizing work.

I would rather see something completely different, like a recoil operated rifle with more traditional ergonomics. I don't mean like a straight up fudd, but something more rifle and less pogo stick.

I do own an SFAR though, and I love it for what it is. It's a hotrod, not a workhorse. The AR15 platform was simply the best way to make a 308 semi auto the lightest and most compact without designing something from the ground up. Plus it keeps some parts interchangeable with the most popular rifle in the world.

If you downsized the AR, you could make a really light 5.7, and already have several pistol magazines to choose from.  I don't know what that gains you exactly.

My interest is to keep in line with the SFAR philosophy of: "let's make an AR15 strong enough to run a .308 class round, and make it work in AR15 sized parts."  Which was achieved fundamentally by the stronger alloy in the bolt and barrel extension.  And then some clever reconfiguring to squish it all in (they weren't the first, but they were the first to $905.)  

So what I want is apply that same shrinkage to give me a supra tiny 5.56 gun (that works).  Give me a ... I donno, how about ... a P90 in full-power 5.56?  I want that, give me that. (yea yea, many inards would have to change - so get to work Ruger).

Doing the conversion on stuffing 270 winchester into a 277 fury ....and then stuffing a 308 into an AR15 ...you could probably get 6.5grendel performance out of a 6.5 whisper/blk in a 85-90% scale ar15 .  

- I'd friction weld the aermet ext onto to the bbl for more strength in the chamber

- I'd also look at steel case ammo made in a similar way ; tool steel base/webbing with mild steel body . That's a 2 into one process with cheaper material vs 3 into 1 and more expensive material

* I'd also look at shrinking the bullet diameter ; .257 is 97% diameter of .264.   .243 is 91% diameter .

** would be reminiscent of the old 6x35 KAC

Tinkering in CAD on this, might be my next prototype project... Attached File

.473 is 25% larger than .378 ... so it would be an interesting shrink job . 2.8 is about 25% longer than 2.26

The Grendel rim is about 7% smaller than the .473 .

SPC about 12%

My wife has a browning 380-1911 that is about 85% full size.  Neatest thing I've ever put hands on . Kinda drives my interest in an 85% AR

* grendel/spc performance is definitely my preferred yardstick .

** a single-stack 7.92x33 or 7x33 based off the ruger bolt and ext would be a decent possibility

*** 7.62x33 would be acceptable and provide some bbl donors

*** maybe a 7.62x35 based off benchrest brass

Like the  magpul/suitcase gun? That ever get finished?

The FMG? Yes
Attached File

Attached File


The PDR? No, at least not yet...

That’s so punk rock…