How do you all feel about the Steiner P4Xi in 2024?

Is there any consensus about 1-4x LPVOs in 2024?

I realize that the industry has moved away from 1-4 / 1-6x and routinely into 1-8 / 1-10x territory.

We’ve been getting a whole lot of cheap, Chinese made, featured packed LPVOs with FFP reticles, mediocre glass, and unforgiving usability for the last 3-4 years now.

It’s hard to say that shift is for the better though. In the consumers efforts to ask for better scopes, it appears we’ve gotten the “high processed diet” version of LPVOs now.

I know the big knock on the P4Xi specifically is the price hikes we’ve seen (why get the P4Xi for $750 when the Razor is about $1K now, or the PLXC is $1.3K I suppose).

I recently acquired a “like new” P3TR version for $400 which may make my viewpoint biased, but I’m truly blown away by the balance of simplicity and quality it offers.


People still love ACOGs and 3x magnifiers, so I’m surprised that most folks have zero interest in turning the ship around from the current 1-8/1-10 trajectory.


There still seems to be a great use case for 1-4x LPVOs, specifically on 10.3-13.7 carbines or scout rifles. “Scoped carbine” seems to be getting more popular than ever too.

Are we past the rubicon for lightweight, well made 1-4s?

I always thought the Accupoint 1-4x was a fantastic option. Regret having to sell mine.

I’ve got 2 P4Xi’s and will probably grab another at the right price.

ETA the P3TR reticle is the only one worth owning, the G1 reticle is trash and the illumination sucks

I’d rather have a crisp and bright 4X/6X than a dim and bleary 8X/10X. Unfortunately the market seems to want otherwise.

This is a crazy good price for mount and tr24 https://www.ar15.com/exchange/topicEE.html?t=2446332&f=163&type=1

I’ve been debating buying it but don’t have an upper for it… maybe I need an upper…. If you buy this listing my wife would be happier with me next week haha

The pendulum will eventually come back. One manufacturer will reveal a 1-4/6 with a 34mm billet tube, under 15oz and as short/shorter than plxc/nx8, daylight bright center dot, multiple reticles, capped low pro .1mil turrets, amazing glass with razor/plxc ring effect, built in adjustable zoom fin/lever, locking diopter.

Optics tech has come a long way since the NXS 1-4, TR24, short dot, etc.

Then more will make their version.

I love my TR24R …

But they won’t do all of that for <$1500

The P4Xi is interesting. You can get the trash G1 reticle for <$500 from several vendors all day long. The P3TR version currently sits north of $650 with several vendors north of $800. I paid ~$500 for one and $550 for the other of my P3TRs. I’ve kind of put a cap at $550 for them. At or below that price, I’ll buy another in a heartbeat. Above that you start to find better options with more features. What you have described sounds good, but it won’t compete price wise with the P4Xi.

The P4xi can be had for $572 through Expert Voice. I like mine quite a bit. It sits on an 11.5” SBR.

When everybody has 1-4x scopes, it makes it hard to sell 1-4x scopes. Keep adding "features" that if you don't have them you'll die in the streets to keep selling scopes. Firearms and accessory sales are all about creating new must-haves. It's way easier to get existing customers to buy new stuff than it is to find new customers.

Buyers don't seem concerned with weight anymore. Scopes have gotten much heavier on the whole in recent years. Increased tube size and big magnification ranges seem in demand, even if those things might not be all that useful for optics for short and mid-range rifles. Of course, I'm pretty well convinced that most shooters shoot rifles almost entirely from static, supported positions at high contrast targets in bright light. If that's true, it explains a lot about the current lower end of the optic market.

I like light, compact scopes for ARs, but that's not what's selling these days.

My primary 3gun upper is a Kahles 1-8 but I still didn't see that many 1-8s or 1-10s at majors last year.

It looks like the most common LPVO is still the Razor 1-6.

I like 1-4x for shorter ranges, but don't have much experience with them besides the Vortex 1-4x PST.

If they made that with current glass and the same reticle with a 34mm tube, i'm sure it would sell well.

In 2024, I’d rather have a PA SLX Nova 1-6x for $250. Same weight but similar reticle and 1-6x. Although the glass is not as good, it is very adequate and the field of view is better on 1x, meaning less tube effect vs the Steiner.

I don't know. I have a 1-5× Leupold VX5HD CDS with Firedot. It is ~14oz. The only things I wish for are seperate up/down buttons or knob for illumination control, 1/2 mil hashes that are shoulder width for 300-600 yard targets, and the overall length to be about an inch shorter. Would I pay more than the $700 I bought it for? Probably, but not much.

The Primary Arms PLxC NOVA SFP 1-8x  has all that but will be 16.8oz and go up to 8x. It is $1275... will I buy that? Yes.

I think the key for any 1-4× or 1-5× scope is to be compact and ultralight while staying low in price.

Sure, I bought a PA SLx 1-6× Nova for under $300 because of the price, but it is China made/China glass scope, long and weighed 18 ounces before putting the shake awake battery cap on it.

For a resurgence of 1-4× and 1-5× scopes we need lengths under 10" and preferably under 9", we need weights UNDER 14oz, we need motion activated fiber dot reticles with ranging features, and we need low profile capped or locking turrets that hold zero and track well.

I don't think anyone cares if the diopter is locking or not as long as it is adjustable. I don't think anyone will shoot passive with a LPVO. I dont think anyone wants FFP in a 1-4× or 1-5× scope. I don't think anyone wants a 34mm tube... I think a 1" tube would make more sense than a 34mm in this role, but 30mm would be fine.

I think everyone wants the glass to be clear, the image to be flat, and the FOV to extend all the way to the edge of the tube with no black ring of scope body left at optimal eye relief. I think everyone wants a forgiving eyebox at 1x and max power, even at the expense of some eye relief or FOV. I think people would accept having to use a honeycomb objective cover or polarized objective cover to deal with sun glare, so long as it works.

The problem is that very few scopes are made with the things that matter in mind and most are made with features/buzzwords to fill ads. Electronic upgrades are easy with advancing technology... so reticles that blink when an electronic level senses they are canted, shake awake, low battery indicators, bright LEDs, etc. are easy and cheap to introduce. 0.1 MIL turrets vs 1/4 MOA are an easy and costless "upgrade" even though that does not matter on a fixed zero, low power, SFP LPVO.

Good lens systems cost money, lightweight forged aluminum tubes of an allow that will be stronger and lighter than common 6061 will cost money. Using quality steel instead of brass... or titanium instead of steel will cost money. And people like buzzwords and NOT spending money.

Is a compact, superlight 1-4× or 1-5× LPVO Renaissance a possibility? One with quality optics, features tailored to  the role of the LPVO, and practically zero downsides for its intended role?  Sure... but it takes years of ACTUAL shooting experience to appreciate such a thing where as MORE POWER! MORE FEATURES! at a "low" price is an easy sell to new shooters.

Sadly, we are more likely to see motorized zoom with an MLOK Bluetooth zoom button pad, dual focal plane reticles with blurry hashes on the FFP and a fiber crosshair in the SFP, 34mm tubes with 200+ MOA adjustment for dialing to a mile, 1-12× zoom, 28mm objectives, and adjustable parallax knobs in an LPVO that weighs almost 2 pounds and is made in China for $689 with a 1 year warranty. Possibly some plastic lenses to keep the weight down...  

I’ve got a Vortex PST 1-4 on a BCA-10. Definitely not the ideal optic, but I’ve taken it out to 600yds.

I cap LPVO magnification @ 6x.  If I need more on top I will add more on the bottom and enjoy the benefits of the larger objective.  I think a decent quality 1-4 would sell if it has a good reticle with a bright center dot.

As long as LPVOs are getting bigger and heavier I think I am sticking with Prisms or go all in on MPVO magnification.

I would really like a lightweight, sturdy 1-4/6, RD bright, and SFP with decent reticle and Ranging. And priced for less than a Prism/Dot Combo.

Owning both, I’d trade my SLX Nova + $200 for another P4Xi with the P3TR reticle

I'll agree with just about everything said here.  I put a Burris RT-6 on my rifle and it took what was a light, nice handling gun to a top heavy, off balance rifle.  Even that optic isn't THAT heavy (17 oz + 9? oz PEPR mount).  Currently I'm looking at older, used Leupold 1-4 as they can be had under 12oz, some under 10oz.

I do believe Leupold could make gains in this market, but seems they always have 1 or 2 glaring omissions form a scope.  If you want that option, you go to the other model line, but then lose the anther feature you wanted.  Want to get features, go up a level or two, but then lose something else or gain 6 ounces.  I like value, but would absolutely pay more for something of this nature.  Plus, not a big fan of their reticles

I don't think I 'need' a perfect 1x, I could compromise at 1.5 or 2, or even piggyback an ultralight red dot at under 1oz.

I would buy the Griffin offering in a heartbeat, but it's 25 freaking ounces, add their SPERM mount and we're talking adding 3 pounds on the top of your rifle (I know, work out more).  The chances of me ever needing an optic and mount that will survive the fall down the mountain in Lone Survivor is nil.  

@Green0   I love your products and would buy (several) lightweight version of your scope in a heartbeat, any plans for one in the future?  I know you make hard use products, but not all of us really use them in this way, kinda light lightweight silencers are coming back into vogue, scopes should as well.  Even Leupold seem to be getting up there in weight.

I have two of the old Leupold MarkAR 1.5-4x with the Firedot SPR reticles. If they had a reticle with useful subtensions (2.5 mils ) and capped turrets, it would be damn near perfect for a carbine or SBR. The 1.5x doesn't bother me at all up close. They weigh under 10 ounces and have good glass.

A neighbor who is just getting into ARs really liked that scope. I tried to find used ones for him, and they're selling for more today than they did new. A budget scope from yesteryear with bad "features" is appreciating in price. Obviously, some people value that light weight, daylight bright dot that doesn't bleed light out the objective, and compact size.

Of course, if you took them down to 1x, they wouldn't weigh 9.6 oz. FWIW, a lot, if not most, 1x scopes are really a little over 1x.

Hence the Steiner P4Xi with P3TR.  I own three.  Fabulous clarity.  I just feel like it is somewhat..... delicate.

FocusTripp did a couple videos on it. I'm pretty sure he used the same scope in both. He drop-tests the scopes he reviews mounted to a rifle, optic-down from shoulder height. First video was onto firm dirt, held zero. Second video was again onto firm ground, held zero. Then dropped onto a steel plate; had zero shift (in a cantilever mount) but otherwise kept on ticking.

Seem to me the P4Xi is a stout little scope.

Mine fell out of the top of the safe and landed on concrete, bending the objective housing so much it can be seen on 1x. Zero was only off by an inch. Have moved that scope around on a few rifles and it still tracks and holds zero. I just put a vortex defender cap on it to cover up the dent.

Wow this thread really blew up since I made my post. Awesome to see how many folks view it similarly.


I think you hit the nail on the head here. There is definitely a never ending carousel of products and “innovation” based on cyclical trends. It makes sense to me that the industry is going to realize people are tired of the “double stuffed dorito blasted, zero sugar added” 1-8/1-10x LPVOs.

At that point they’ve invested so much into LPVO tech that I can easily see them scaling back to something you described. Then all the YouTubers can talk about why 1-4 was supposed to be the right tool for the job all along

I love mine, but I’m going to be selling it because my vision sucks.  

Minimum I’ll go with is 1-6, just got a Razor 1-10 and holy crap what a luxury it is to be able to see the targets.

It’s very strange to me that no one has filled the void that the P4Xi used to sit in. (Simple 1-4x with amazing glass, red dot brightness, and lightweight).  It sounds like it was (and still would be) THE scope to get if you wanted a premium option for at or under $500.

Buyers still want good, premium glass. Manufacturers intentionally seem like they force people to make choices between $500 SUPER GIZMO LPVOs and $1500 tasteful scopes from Japan.

Just make the $500 simplified tasteful Japanese scope already. Buyers will sacrifice some magnification and features to get there.

That was also my problem when I was looking for a mid powered, semi-precision optic last year. I could not find anything worth a damn that was under 25oz.

I decided to go with a VX-R TMR Firedot 3-9x that’s got a 10+ year old design because nobody makes scopes for SPRs with weight in mind. Now all my optics have decade old designs which tells me something about the health of current innovation.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I agree on almost all fronts (I prefer the 30mm tube size for ease of comparability with almost all mounts on the market)

I’m arriving at the same conclusion for this as I did for the SPR scope market last year. At least for semi-budget scopes, people do not actually appear to use these products in dynamic environments. They don’t seem to take them on rucks, shoot&move, or even shoot prone/standing/kneeling/tripod.

If folks did, they would be literally begging for lightweight options that emphasize clarity over features.

I've got a lightly used P4Xi for sale in EE if anybody is interested!

It has been nails for me, just looking to move to a little more magnification for my 14.5" since I like to stretch its legs.

@Green0

Sorry I've been @'ing you a bit lately, but you might know the answer to this.  I recall one reason Leupold scopes were lighter is they were not a true 1x, maybe more of a 1.2 or something, thereby eliminating a lens and associated hardware.  If you're working on a shorter tubed optic, would a 1.5/2x help get the lightweight, smaller bodied, yet nicely featured scope of a reasonable price. I'd happily give up true 1x a I think mu Burris RT-6 might be 1.2x, it's 17 oz.

Side question out of curiosity.  I'm guessing that you yourself don't actually design and engineer the scope, you (Griffin) would contact the actual mfg with a set of specs and they design to meet.  I would also imagine they also have a catalogue of 'set ups' and menu of options (red/green reticle, MOA/MIL etc...)  would/could a company like Griffin go to the MFG and ask for a 1-6 with ABC reticle in MIL with 10 lighted positions and 3 NV, etched reticle, adj. parallax, coated lens and under 16oz,  and the MFG can essentially build one to spec 'from the menu/exiating parts/knowledge w/o all the extensive research.  Kinda like parts bin engineering for auto mfg's.  OR, is literally each scope model literally and specifically singly engineered to your exacting specs.

I hope all this makes sense, please ignore if this is propriety info

Wow that is way off topic from the P4XI and 1-4x convo

Well, this is arfcom after all

I had a P4xI p3tr and regret selling it about 3 years ago.

Couldn't bring myself to pay today's prices... so I rolled the dice on two refurb vortex viper pst ii 1-6. 445 each shipped no tax.

They're fantastic. Only complaint would be the weight. But I also use ADM recon mounts...so those aren't light either.

That.

In my opinion a 1-4 LPVO is great option for most actual needs/practical application. What I wish the market would offer is a modern 1-4 built with all of the weight and size savings which are currently applied to the 1-8 class.

I have a couple of the old Steiner Military 1-4’s which are amazing optical qualities and are damn near indestructible, but they’re huge by todays standards.

Personally? I think 1-6 is about ideal for general use and 1-8 being a more specialized option. I haven’t found a 1-10 that I’m really happy with.

Why would you think a Steiner is delicate?

Is it going to be made in China and then when you’re asked you’ll get cagey about it and say that it’s “Asian manufactured”?

How about a 5x with a removable riser and an accommodation for a piggyback RDS?

A mini version of this, but with a dot instead of the ^, and a make the circle large like DoD large:



Oh, and don't kill the eye relief for the sake of FOV.

I was reading a thread a few days ago in GD where a guy asked for a list of the most durable optics. I think there is a reason why no one listed the P4Xi

Also, early on I did read where someone’s reticle became detached and skewed. But not sure what caused that.

But, besides a broken throw lever - that Steiner replaced without hesitation, mine have been GTG.

That’s exactly right. And don’t forget virgin tight eye box on those 1-8/1-10’s too.

The Steiner 1-4, Delta Stryker 1-6, Khales 1-6 and Razor E 1-6 are still the best AR scopes in my opinion and experience.

Leupold sucks at maintaining zero. Reticles suck too.

If you want to kill it in the optics game Green0, then basically make the Credo 2-10x36 but only illuminated center (not the whole tree) and a side focus. The SPR scope market is severely lacking.

I think the Accupoint TR24 is an awesome scope for an 11.5 or 12.5, great combo of red dot and magnification.  I have one on an 11.5. An ideal SHTF optic outside an ACOG.  I really considered the 1-6 version for a 14.5 but for that I  wanted a BDC or mil, etc.  I ended up with a 1-6 Credo HX for that role.

It seems to me  to be really dependent on the role you want it to play.

The 1-6 has a mil dot and moa reticle!  little green dot in the center so it's less like a red dot though.  theres one or two up on tacswap, but i think OP with fathers day coupon code is cheaper for brand new.

i've been moving over to ACOG+dot on top, but keep a mil dot TR25 around for a "end of the world optic" no batteries 1-6x.  currently sits on my dedicated 22lr upper as a whistle pig/practice gun