A few months ago, I bought a plain white jug of WC852 powder at the LGS for a price that I could not pass up.

I was hoping to be able to use it to load up some ammo for our AR-15s.   Either 55gr FMJ blasty blast ammo for my boys/SHTF OR some match ammo using 77gr Sierra Matchking bullets for a Appleseed Known Distance (out to 400 yards) that I want to shoot next year.

In my research, I have found very few loads using this powder.   I know, its not the BEST choice, but its what I have to use for THIS purpose.   I also found out that this powder came in FAST lots and SLOW lots.

Using my AR15, how do I determine if I have a Fast lot (H380/H414) or a slow lot (H4831 or Reloader 19)?

I MIGHT be able to borrow a Chrony sometime this fall, but I would rather get this started BEFORE the weather starts to get cold.

Thanks!

Buy a chronograph. They are not expensive, well some are.

I've always thought "fast" and "slow" refers to the burn rate of the powder, not the speed of the projectile.


Either way, do a normal load work up.  It doesn't matter whether you have a fast lot or a slow lot, it only matters that YOUR load is safe and reliable with YOUR powder charges.

Is there a lot # on the container?

Having a chronograph is integral to reloading.
(PM me if you want an optical one cheap)

"fast" or "slow" in this case does refer to the powder burn rate, but the velocity is going to be a key metric in that.
Blasting ammo, not such a big deal, but shooting 77s at distance, you simply have to know your velocity, or you have to be able to test at every distance you might shoot.

I would just start at the starting load, hopefully safe either way, and look for primer pressure signs as you work up... which is what I do every time I switch lots of surplus powder.

I recently went through this exercise with WC846 and a chronograph.  It shoots great, which is a good thing since I have 32lbs of it

It is consistently hotter than the little bits of data I found online.


I'd find a buddy/local member with a chrono or buy a cheap one.  Or load it as very conservative min-load plinking ammo.

Start low and work your way up.  

A chronograph is not necessary.  I really think it is off base to tell him he needs to spend money for an instrument he doesn't have; then learn how to use it; then fix any mistakes he made using it; THEN he can develop a load for a new-to-him powder.  People safely reloaded for a century without the benefit of chronographs.  I'm sure we can manage, too.

It's not hard to use.  Turn it on, shoot ammo over/in front of it.

While it is true that Chrono's weren't a thing until the 90's(?)................ they are WAY TOO EASY not to use now............  they aren't complicated.

DVCNick:  ".......It's not hard to use.  Turn it on, shoot ammo over/in front of it............... "

If there is, then do a web search on the lot number. You still have to do your own load development, you cannot treat it like a known canister powder. There's no way of getting around this safely, don't just knock a grain of so off the max. canister powder data and call it good.

@Trollslayer Thank You!


Unfortunately, there is no lot number on the jug!

For all those that say start low and work you way up---That's great but without published data, how do I know "how low to go" to start?    
Just like not going OVER the max load, I assume that I would not want to go lower than a minimum load.

You first asked this question:  "...Using my AR15, how do I determine if I have a Fast lot (H380/H414) or a slow lot (H4831 or Reloader 19)?......"

Answer:  As you work up your loads and using a chronograph, you can then develop a pattern of how much powder you are using vs the velocities you are getting.  
You then compare that to others results to get "a feel" if your particular powder is "faster" or "slower" than other lots of the same powder.
You cant get that data without a chronograph.  

Your next question:   "......but without published data, how do I know "how low to go" to start ........"

Answer:  This is why using non-canister lots of powder can be challenging.  My suggestion is to look at the powders referenced (ie H380 etc) with the bullet you intend to use and using their starting loads.
EDIT:  What Zhukov said. ......................  

     
PS....... my comments are merely suggestions, I have NO knowledge of your abilities and expertise in reloading.  You, alone, are responsible for your actions and whatever may come of this.  

Let me apologize for my use of "off base".  That was uncalled for.

I fully understand why they are recommending using a chronograph, it's just,... well, I think I explained the rest, above - it isn't needed.

Again, I apologize.

One key difference between a fast powder and a slow powder is going to be peak pressure for a given muzzle velocity.  

To think that chronographs tell you about peak internal pressure is a mistake.  Personally, I wish the strain gauge pressure measurement equipment had been commercialized rather than chronographs.  I think reloaders would be safer had they been.

The way to deal with a truly unknown powder is to start low and work up.

I've never used WC852, if that's what it truly is, so it's difficult to answer.

Hodgdon does not recommend either H380 or IMR4831 for use in 223 Rem.  

For reference, both H380 and IMR4831 are slower than most other powders commonly used in 223 Rem.  H380 may be faster than IMR4831 but both are slower than Varget.

(I originally posted a method but not having worked with this powder, I deleted it.)

Sir:
You are not understanding the comments here............  As you point out, noone has "strain gauge pressure measurement equipment" to use.  Chronographs don't show internal pressures, they show velocities of projectiles.
Those projectiles are forced forward thru the barrel by the pressure of the burning powder.   So the velocities recorded are a reflection of the pressures involved.  Not precise nor ideal but the best we have using the equipment at hand.
But good enough, when compared to other data collected, get a rough idea of which powder lots might be "slower" or "faster" than another.    

Noone is arguing, and many have already suggested to.........."The way to deal with a truly unknown powder is to start low and work up."
Though to be accurate, that applies to known powders as well.  
But that is, really, separate from the OP's first question.      

I have never used the powder you are referencing. IMO H380/H414 is too slow for .223, let alone H4831?RE-19.

The slowest powder usable for .223 is probably N150, it's just slightly slower than N140 which is very close to Varget and RE-15.

Despite being a slow powder, better suited to magnum cartridges, it will launch the projectile, no doubt about that.  It just won't be an optimal.  

Because of that, in 223 Rem, it would be better suited to heavier bullets than lighter ones.  

The aspect of this that has me balking is the "plain white jug" (unlabeled, no maker/distributor).  I mean, who knows what this stuff really is?  Am I reading too much into that statement of his?

I don't want to be responsible in any way for a misadventure, especially for his kids.

This is what I found last night.

If this powder is properly labeled, which is questionable, WC852 is the slow version (akin to IMR4831).  

Were it the "faster" version (akin to H380), it would be labeled WC852f.


As stated above, both are slower than powders normally used in 223 Rem.

I understand the comments very well, I just disagree with the assertion that muzzle velocity is all that's important.  I can get you the same muzzle velocity two different ways - safely and unsafely.

In the first case (hopefully, this is the OP's case), he will get a decent MV with a low peak pressure and a broad pressure curve because he has a slow powder.  This is the safe case.

Alternatively, he can achieve that exact same velocity BUT with excessive peak pressure and a more narrow pressure curve because he has a fast powder.  This is the unsafe case.

Both will impart the same impulse into the bullet.  The pressure transducer systems will show this to you.  A chronograph will not.


Let's hope the powder is properly labeled and the two candidate cannister powders are representative of what he bought.  If that is true, he may get more muzzle flash than normal and maybe a lower velocity than normal.  He may even see scorched but unburned powder kernels (but I doubt that in this case).  It could be, and is likely to be, a piece of cake.


Hasn't anyone here used these powders and been through this exact load development before?  

In 223 Rem, I've used IMR4064 but not IMR4831 or H380 and certainly not WC852.

How about the LGS owner who sold this powder, has he ever used it for his reloads?  Have that discussion, first.

I agree with this. Plus it's an odd weight, 3 pounds. So it's either a partial jug with the label missing or it's been repackaged.

my LGS will take in trades but nothing that has been opened for the simple reason that he can't verify the contents of an opened container. I hope your LGS was intimately familiar with this powder or knew the person trading it in well.