So finally got the new brass processing building in a usable state (long way from done)

Thought i would finally really put the annealeez to work.

We had 1k of mixed 308 brass that is going to be loaded conservatively as blasting ammo for some semi autos.

The machine is extremely simple to set up and use.  

The only thing to make sure you adjust is how the case rides on the bottom wheel that left metal arm going to the bottom wheel is adjustable and needs to be set correctly.

Changing how fast the wheels turn is simple enough.

Follow the directions works like a champ.   Tested it with Tempilaq.

https://youtube.com/shorts/1XLnvSEBZuI?si=SQ7N3S2AK6n10N7G  

The honey badger again this is a follow the directions and it works as advertised.  

I'm using an lmt unsrud 3/8 bit with a 3/8 collet .

Cut quality looks really good i couldn't detect anything with a paper clip....

I plan to seat a couple bullets and pull them just to check..  

Friend of mine 3d printed the shrouds.  

I forgot dillon doesn't send a ring that go's on the trimmer side of their trim dies.   I have a couple extra from my lyman trim die debacle so i at least i got something out of those sh#@ dies. (lyman only bad cs i ever had in reloading world)

Initial use of this i honestly see another one in my future for 300bo.  

https://youtube.com/shorts/aIKzeiZlrWQ?si=Ojn8NhFwNwep4GeQ

I would be happy to answer any questions I can.

Thanks for posting them, I watched both videos.

How long have you had yours or how many cases have you processed?  

Which do you prefer?  

What is holding the torch on the Annealeez?

Your attachment of the left bracket is different than shown on the Annealeez web site.  Is that your mod or a production variation or...?



I had a 50% failure rate from case neck cracks on brand new brass.  The only explanation I have is age hardening in storage.  If cases cost $0.50 to $1.00 each and I have a 50% failure rate due to embrittlement, it might be time to try one of these machines.  

At $300 and a 50% failure rate, it would pay for itself pretty quickly, if it can eliminate the problem.  


I need to get back into the lab, err,... I mean garage and and range to do some testing to see if it works before I buy.

I read everything even if i don't comment. IDK where you are located but i thought i said in your thread you would be welcome to use it if you were close.

I have 500pieces 30 year old virgin Winchester 223 brass i'm going to test with mine and i'm going to sacrifice 50?? an not anneal them just to see if they crack.

Interested to see if i get any of the cracking problems you did.   This brass has lived over 3/4 of it's life in an non climate controlled building hotter than h in summer and as low as 13 in winter.

I have several k pieces of older brass in rotation but idk exactly how old all of it is and it's always been in rotation....  so it's mostly anecdotal that i don't have the cracking issues you had.  

The only thing i know for certain is i have 500 pieces of Winchester 308 in rotation that don't have this cracking issue with. They are just now being annealed..... those cases have been in a very slow hunting / long range rotation for 30 years.

Why i haven't had that cracking issue is wierd if it's "all" old brass that does it.


I know for a fact the 223 Winchester brass is virgin and i bought it from dillon when i bought my first 550b like 30-31 years ago.  

It will probably be a month or two before i actually get this done.  Just to many projects.

Amen!

Your problem cracked old cases has me all wondering now.... I'm a brass hoarder from way back. ( i have 94~ starline 45acp that has never been loaded)

So i dug out another old bag of brass it's from around 04~5 purchase so 20 year old lake city.

I have been sorting it 2002 is the most prevalent with 03 and 01 mixed in with the odd 86 and up.

So far over half is 02 so i'm going to anneal it for my control and just size 50 of the odd years and see what happens with this brass also.

https://youtube.com/shorts/AKW8AVTAxh4?feature=share

I got motivated after typing earlier i've already annealed the old winchester 223

https://youtube.com/shorts/QqxRxJFGqF0

little clip of the difference in how they look between the annealed and non winchester

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVVduOLqumk

The Annealeze has a new generation. I just purchased mine so I'm not sure when the changeover happened. Metal wheels and the gate is timed by the top wheel. No need to time the wheels together anymore.


IMG_3068 by Ryan Magers, on Flickr

That looks nice, gratz!



Let's see if I understand this -

If I have 2,000 pieces of aged but unfired Winchester brass and suffer a 50% failure rate due to cracked necks, then I will lose 1,000 pieces of brass after one firing.

Replacement cost for those 1,000 case will be about $350 - $400 at today's best pricing.  New, unfired Starline, Hornady and Nosler are available now but not Winchester.  

If annealing mitigates/avoids 100% of the neck cracking by annealing, that would pay for an Annealeez.

It would also allow me to be assured that my stored brass is still viable, as long as I anneal it before use.  I have stored brass for multiple cartridge types, so having this assurance is important to me.  


I have to get back to the bench and range to find out if annealing works, or not.

Wow i decided to run a little test today while i was trimming some of the brass for the test.  

Talk about changing your neck tension using my rcbs tri way trimmer it's changing the neck tension .003.  

Still acceptable i've loaded thousands this way but just showing the difference....

https://youtu.be/dtEfADlU6lU

What do you call that gauge? Never seen one before.

Could it be the pilot is too big?  What is the diameter of the pilot?  Do they sell them in various sizes?  If not, you could reduce the pilot's diameter pretty easily.

It could also be an off-center pilot that widens the neck as it is spun.

Ballistic Tools makes it. Neck tension gauge.

https://ballistictools.com/store/case-mouth-gage-224-308

Yea i bought the kit years ago that has it all large ,small primer pocket crimp gauges and neck tension.




They don't have different sizes for same caliber..... at least not that i have ever seen.

I was busy didn't try to measure pilot.

I remember using the "plain" 223 cutter before i got the tri way it "felt" the same when putting it in a case but that's not really a measurement.

I'm more concerned about it being off center...  I've always felt like it's kind of a janky system.

But Lots of them out their and lots of other manufactures that look basically identical..    

Truth is though i've loaded up thousands of rounds with this system in both 223 and 308 it will prodce 3//4" ammo now would it do better ? or is it me holding the ammo back? or is it my guns?


Now i definitely have to test my method with my dillon and honey badger set up just because i have to know.

I had been kicking around getting an expander mandrel and die for the 308 now that i have the honey badger... now i know i am.

I think we ran this test last year the 30 year old winchester 308 brass vs the new starline

The starline did have a slight poi change but group sizes were on par with winchester

Being off center is a legit concern.

I added a three way cutter to my RCBS Trim Pro.  I was getting skewed cutter results.  Definitely not even and concentric.   You don’t notice it so bad when square cutting but the three way cutter makes it obvious.  I thought I analyzed it right as a bad green base that didn’t let the cutter shaft align with the cartridge holder.  I explained my findings to RCBS and they sent me a new base.  I put everything over on to the new base and tried it on Iirc a different caliber case.  Things looked ok.  Months later I went back to the original sized case and the problem was still there.  Apparently I screwed up, it wasn’t the green base that was off, it was the through hole that the cutter shaft rides in.  It was ok in close but on longer cartridge cases it gets farther off center.  I was disgusted and sorry about not sending it back to RCBS to get it done right.  

I just went and really looked at that head no way i could measure it accurately.

The inside chamfer blades are made into the mandrel so polishing it would be a no go too.

Talk about ignorance is bliss

Now i will have to do some serious testing and re evaluate how i do things.

I checked some 308 brass that has been done with the rcbs 3 way too its the same

You could remove the pilot out of the cutter and inspect the pilot.

Then make a shaft that tightly fits the cutter head hole that the pilot goes in. I’d cut a taper point on the shaft. Insert the shaft in the cutter head and run it up to the center of the case holder.

It is a janky set up.  I gave up on it for precision work and use a Wilson set up for that.  I can still use the Trim Pro with the three way cutter heads for 5.56 and .30 cal stuff.  I might try shimming one day to true up the two sides.

I thought about cutting a shaft with threaded ends to true the outer round surface to the bore and shimming to height.  

I have a metal lathe to play with stuff, exactly why I bought it.

I could also make a case holder and trim on the lathe itself like some serious bench rest guys do.

My RCBS tri-cutter just sits in it's box. Wish they made it with 2 chamfer cutters instead of only one on one side. The imbalance IMO can cause the cutter to occasionally catch the edge of the mouth and tear the brass instead of cutting. The case ends up in the scrap bucket. Maybe mine got dull, but I really don't like the design.

Mine was mounted on a Hornady case prep station that only spins at 400 rpm. A four blade flat cutter works much better at that speed and gives a nice flat cut on the case mouth. Inside/outside chamfer is an extra 2 steps but I think it comes out ahead time wise compared to the tri-cutter. Too many times the tri-cut just isn't a flat cut and I spend a lot of time checking cases after being trimmed. Bottom line, I don't trust it.  

I also use a LE Wilson for precision trimming.

Wilson is the most precise on the market.  It is also most likely the slowest.  Still, I use mine occasionally, when I think it matters (it doesn't).

I use my Giraud for almost all my trimming.  The way the case is held/supported and presented to the cutter looks to be superior to that RCBS.  

I suppose, if the trimmer is properly aligned and the cases are all uniform in the way they are held/supported (they're not), it will work.  That long, skinny cutter shaft supported in a plain, journal bearing does not inspire confidence in me.

The Wilson has a similar cutter support but the case is held much more securely and the distance the cutter has to extend is minimized.

Past couple of day...  

I just eased a case straight from sizing up on the tri way trimmer pilot ....... best i can tell that does most of the resizing of the neck.

Best i can tell from testing this it only gets 1~2 thousands put in it from doing it under real conditions trimmer spinning.

Unrelated i ruined a big bunch of brass trying to adjust my super swage to swage better.....  talk about bad mood it was all the brass i had trimmed with the rcbs....

So needless to say all the new batch will just be sized trimmed with the dillon rt1500 ..

I ordered 21st centrury mandrell dies and mandrells for 223 / 308 so i can get a better idea on a few things.   they should arrive friday.... hopefully saturday i will be testing ammo....

@Trollslayer

@ Trollslayer

I just wanted you to have a little update on my old brass.   I took out my new garmin chrono today too holy shit talk about awesome if you want a chrono.  It just works like nothing else.

I took both the annealed vs non winchester  brass out today I had zero split necks

Shot 40 of each so 80 total..... i'd take pictures but it's nothing to show.  

These were shot loaded with 69 rmr 25.3 gr of varget with wolf primers they produced 2769 and a 2771 avg with two 10 shot groups.

I don't know that my results tell you anything but we also fire 40 rounds of 30 year old 308 winchester brass today also still zero splits....


ETA i fired several groups done with honey badger trimer and 21st century madrel 308 brass vs rcbs triway brass  then several groups of dillon rt 1500 / lyman m die vs rcbs tri way cutter ...... didn't get around setting up the other

21st century madrell die for 223 .......... bottom line i can't shoot the difference and neither can my brother.  

Groups from 5/8 to 1 1/8 random on which way processed...... so i spent another $160 on nothing lol

REGARDING ANNEALING

The first time I had neck splitting was on some Remington 22-250 brass re-formed into 6XC but left unfired (not fire formed) for ~20 years.  It was stored in sealed plastic containers in a mild environment.

I annealed a few (~20) in an attempt to make the brass viable for use.  It did not eliminate or even help reduce the crack rate, at all.

I am not optimistic about the outcome of this upcoming annealing experiment but am going to do it, nonetheless.  I have a bunch of this Winchester brass and it would really suck to have a 50% failure rate from neck cracking on the first firing.  

REGARDING NECK MANDREL DIES

I bought my neck mandrel dies for use with my neck turning tools.  I was recently pleased to have them on hand, too, when a batch of Peterson brass came in with grossly thick neck walls.

I have used them as part of my reloading, too, in part because of a recommendation to use them.  After experimenting with them, I find I don't benefit from the extra steps.  My Redding dies produce cases with nearly zero run out.  The brass I use is very uniform in wall thickness, too.

Well, overall, my standard reloading yields cartridges capable of under 1/2 MOA for 20 rounds at 100 yards, benched.  I say it that way because those rounds that open the group to the full 1/2 MOA are out of group because I put them there, not because of ammo limitations.  That's the best I can do,... on a good day.  

As distance grows out to 1,000 yards, the wind takes over as the biggest factor determining group size, outweighing all other errors.  I am not a good shooter and certainly not a good benchrest shooter but I do enjoy a day at the range and I enjoy shooting.

Like you, mandrel dies are just beyond my needs.

Your neck splitting issue just has me puzzled.
I remembered your original post about the fire forming brass and chalked it up to that.

But now with it doing it on regular old brass is just odd.

All i can think is rotten luck / bad brass if it wasn’t exposed to any chemical vapor etc..

My brass has lived most of its life in a storage building / reloading cave .  Seeing all of north Texas temp swings but other than a litlle grease and oil for press maintenance zero chemicals have ever been in my building.

It just seems odd for two different calibers of your brass to have this issue.

That said i have gotten a bad die and a bad shellplate from dillon so crap happens.