I loaded up some Hornady 62gr FMJ to use as practice rounds for my 20" BCM upper.  The gun is zeroed for 62gr Gold Dots, so I wanted something that would have a similar point of impact to the M855 practice rounds I am using (no, M193 ammo wasn't that close).  I am using Ramshot TAC, CCI 400 primers, Lake City 2004 cases, primer pocket reamed, case OAL 1.750.  Bullet is seated to the bottom edge of the cannelure.  Case shoulder is bumped back .004-.006 from the measured chamber size.

I started a little higher than perhaps I should have, at 25.0gr, started to see some cratering at 25.2.  Primers are somewhat flattened, but not that bad, to my eye.  Groups are so-so.  I didn't see any swipes, etc at all.

Ramshot's data for TAC says 22.5gr low end, 25.0 high end for .223 load, 23.6 gr low end, 26.2 gr for high end (5.56 load).  

I've loaded and shot quite a few 55gr FMJs with TAC, with powder charges up to 27gr (27.3gr being max), but settled on 26.2gr for a decently accurate load.  The 55gr load with TAC is in an 16" carbine, not the same gun.  I have not seen cratering with TAC at all, until I started working with the 62gr bullets.  

I am under the impression that TAC seems to perform better using near maximum charges, thoughts?

I also shot some IMI M855 (2017 production), and while there is what might be some cratering, it looks more beveled to me, not true cratering I guess.  Also see some swipe marking, etc, suggesting higher pressure.

Pics:

25.2gr TAC:


25.4gr TAC:



Pic of progression of cases:



2 IMI M855 for comparison:



So I'm looking for advice as to whether I should download to lower pressure or change powder?  I am concerned if I go too low, the point of impact won't be anywhere near the IMI M855 or Gold Dot's.   I REALLY don't want to have to change powders, as I have a large supply of TAC already.  If it would be preferable to change powder, I'd be interested in suggestions for an AVAILABLE powder that isn't very temperature sensitive.  Preferably ball powder for ease of use in my powder measure.



Thanks in advance.

What are you getting for muzzle velocity?

I don't have a chronograph.

CCI 400 Primers aren't really intended for 5.56 pressure rounds.  

The flow into the firing-pin hole (around the firing pin) isn't ideal, but they don't appear to piercing or grossly profound.  You can probably keep running as is, the case head itself doesn't indicate any pressure issues.

I'd grab some of the Ginex primers from AM Rel.

Yes.  I had stocked up many years ago, before I found out that the CCI 400s were a bit soft.  At the time, CCI 41s were hard to come by in any case.  

I guess I could try to get some 41s and try them, if you think it might help.  Naturally no stores near me stock them, and buying 100-200 of them to try and paying Hazmat is a non-starter.  

I am in early days as it were, with this load, and have 1750 of the 62gr bullets to use up.

I do have 3 lbs of Varget powder sitting around that I used to use in 69gr BTHP loads, which I sold off the bullets but kept the powder.  Looks like Varget could work okay, though I'm seeing widely conflicting load info for it.  (what else is new?).  In any case, that would only use up about 750 of those bullets.

I had similar issues with CCI #400's in a load I developed. Switched to #450's and the primers looked perfect.

As started above, AMR currently has 5.56 primers for 6 cents each, shipped.

ETA: I'd also try your load in a different rifle or in that in rifle with a different bolt. I had one bolt that did it and the rest didn't. I also don't load different loads for different rifles.

1)Buy a box of good quality factory 62gr load.

2)Shoot said ammo though your newly acquired cheapo chrono. All 20 rnds.

3)Use avg velocity of factory load and match to your reloads.

Looking at primers is almost completely useless. velocity is directly correlated to pressure. muzzle velocity = chamber pressure.

Primer cratering can vary depending on brand, chamber dimensions, bolt dimension, brass type, barrel wear, etc.

Stop using 400's.

Attached File

Can you recommend a decent cheapo chronograph?  My last experience with on was from the late 90s, total POS that was very finnicky and eventually just stopped working.  

I am considering selling off my CCI 400s and get 41s, but finding them w/o having to pay a fortune for hazmat and shipping is a significant issue.  Have 13800 CCI 400s sitting around, wouldn't mind selling them off locally and pick up say 10k of the 41s, but I'd prefer to get 100-200 of the 41s to try first, which is an issue finding them locally.

You don't need a $600 chrono for limited use, they are nice however. The one listed below should work. I've got one even older and cheaper and it gets the job done for reloading purposes.

For example, I shoot 110gr ttsx's out of my 16" 308 bolt gun. I was using a pulldown powder (MP440) for reloading said bullet. There is NO data for this combo. I bought some 110gr factory loads. Shot them though my cheapo chrono, got velocity data from the chrono, reproduced that velocity with the ttsx MP440 combo.

I never had much luck with the skyscreen type chronographs; they were always too finnicky and needed very bright overhead sky, etc.

To me primer looks fine. I don't even see any ejector swiping on the brass either.

Run Gordon's Reloading Tool for your load recipe.  Tweak it for your case weights and case capacity (water weight).  

It will tell you if you are safe or not.

I'd suggest that because those primers look way too flat for my liking.  You need to know you are safe.  

I have never used that particular primer.

You probably didn't quite catch my last sentance being newer to all this.  At the risk of drawing ire by posting here and not in wheretofind: Americanreloading.com is selling appropriate pressure rated small rifle primers for under 7 cents a piece in hand including shipping and hazmat.  .you do have to buy 5000 - which your only regret 2 years from now, will be that you didn't buy 10,000 (been there!)

The 400s are not a good choice, but they are what you have. Reduce your loads and go with it.

Personally, I will accept mild cratering from 400s, but I am not willing to push them beyond a pucker.

CCI 450s are often the best for accuracy with TAC.

How long ago was that ?

they work just fine for me

ive been using a pro chrono for over 20 years.  Same one

just don't use it when it's overcast or in the evening.

or go with a radar chrono. But they are more.

I don't handload ball ammo. FMJ's, especially military surplus are not accurate. M855 is hideous. Sierra or Hornady 55 grain FMJ's are going to be the best as far as accuracy is concerned. Expect 2 moa when using great FMJ's. 4 moa is typical of M855's.

I would do everything exactly the opposite of what you are doing now. Select a quality bullet and develop the most accurate load you can using your components. Zero the rifle using that load.

How the IMI or other G.I. style ammo groups is irrelevant. At short range, inside 100 yards, it won't matter. The accurate ammo will be good to 300+ yards. If you use 75/77 grain match bullets the range will be double that provided you have at least a 1:8 twist barrel.  

AR-15 accuracy is more dependent on bullet quality than any other factor. Painting yourself into a corner because it's G.I. dramatically reduces your accuracy potential. The only quality G.I. surplus ammo has is quantity. It is designed for penetration, at the expense of good accuracy.

I'm going to disagree with a lot of what was said here, but take it with the caveat that I do not do a ton of shooting with 5.56, and my experience with TAC powder is limited. I don't see any problem with the pictures you posted.

CCI 400 is a perfectly suitable primer. It is a standard rifle primer, and it works fine. They are a little thinner, so they are more prone to piercing or other problems, but they are still rifle primers meant for rifles. They are just as suitable as any other standard rifle primer, there's nothing special or bad about them. They are perfectly suitable for rifle pressures. They are just like Federal 205's, Remintgon 7 1/2's, and Winchester small rifle primers.

Yes you can use magnum primers if you wish, but there's not a lot of them. The CCI 450 is about the only option I can think of.

In the last 15 years or so there has been some AR specific primers that came to market such as the Federal AR SR, CCI 41, and even Winchester recently came out with their own #41.

For the first 50 or so years, the AR15 got along just fine on normal primers. If you were wanting to buy primers, then by all means buy AR specific primers. Most of what I buy are the Federal AR primers. But since you have over 10,000 CCI 400's, then just run them. Selling them at a loss to buy AR primers would be stupid. If you happen to find someone to straight up trade, then go for it, but I doubt that's going to happen.

As for a chronograph, since you are trying to match loads, definitely get one. I'm guessing you used to run one of those fold up Shooting Chronny's. There's a reason they are now out of business, they were absolute trash. They didn't hardly work even on good days. Today there are good sky screen chronographs that are awesome. Not just awesome, they are the least sensitive, most versatile on the market today. The Labradar was always finicky, and it really only worked with rifles. I have not tried the new Garmin, but it looks a million times better, but there's still some things it can't do that a skyscreen chronograph can.

My personal favorite is the ProChrono DLX. It is not finicky in the slightest. Of course it has it's limits like anything, but sun, shade, rain, it just plain works. The DLX model is cool since it works through your phone.

You don't have to get rid of your 400's.

You just need to understand that you SHOULD NOT load 400's to full 5.56 pressures.

If you normally use 24.0 grains for 5.56, and with a MAGNUM primer, drop the powder charge at least ONE FULL GRAIN, and you should be fine with the 400's.

We're just TARGET SHOOTING.
We're not fighting armored Taliban at cross-canyon distances.
If your ammo loaded with just 23.0 grains loses 100-150 fps, WHO CARES?

But I definitely learned my lesson hard trying to run 400's to full 5.56 pressures before I knew any better.
Bunch of torched bolts and firing pins, and lots of debris blown into the bolt.

From now on make sure any primers you buy for your AR are FULL-THICKNESS (0.025").
Don't buy any more shitty thin small rifle primers unless you are doing something like using them in ATOMIC .357 MAGNUM loads.
Small rifle primers WILL WORK in small-primer pistol brass. But not all pistols strike hard enough to ignite a 0.020" thickness primer.
Most pistol primers are 0.017" thickness.

No offense, and in no way intended to demean, but unless you know the velocity of the ammo you are trying to duplicate as well as the velocity of the ammo you have created, you are chasing your tail.

A chronograph is one of the most important tools you can have.  It doesn't have to be expensive, I still use a Shooting Chrony Beta Master I bought used a couple of decades ago.

You can fine tune with other data, such as ballistic coefficients of a particular bullet, but for the most part, equal velocity x bullet weight = similar POI

OP, I think your primers look fine.

I use CCI 400 with my ARs plenty, I've never had a problem, even going off of 5.56 data, which is how I landed on 24.4gr H335 under 62gr bullets, for example.  Admittedly not a max load, but in the upper 1/3 of the Hornady data I have on hand.

I interchange w/ CCI 41 or 450 with that load, & others,  with no problems.

One thing I like about 400's is being able to use them for pistol too.

That chrono up above in the Amazon link, that is the exact one I have, and it works just fine.

The little bit of flattening is primarily the extra headspace clearance. Crater/blank prevention wise, I'd be more comfortable on the 25gr side, especially if you haven't tested on a warmer day. Be sure to at least clean your pockets, maybe uniform a little deeper for more margin against slamfiring. If you aren't crimping into the cannelure, seat out to 2.250 +/-0.008".

Your 400s seem to be doing the job I give them - swipes, flattening, and cratering let you know when to stop increasing charge and replace with a 450, #41, or Rem 7.5.

I'm sure it's fine. I load more than that shooting 77 TMKs. As said before, your primers are giving you false pressure signs.

Okay, thanks for the thoughts, guys.

I went back and looked at the brass that was fired in my other 2 rifles using 55gr Hornady FMJs and 26.2gr TAC.  Upon closer examination with a magnifier, I saw a very few with some mild cratering and some of them the primer dimple is shallow, suggesting to me that pressure might be a bit higher than ideal for the CCI 400 primers.  So I'm not going to make any more of that load, but will use up what I have, as while the load looks "safe", it is a little on the warm side for the 400s as you guys have indicated.

As I already have about 2700 pieces of brass prepped and loaded with the CCI400s, working up new loads that are milder will let me use them up with less risk.  I am NOT interested in de-priming that many cases.

Borderpatrol's suggestion is probably what I will go with.  Currently, the 20" rifle is zeroed with 62gr Gold Dots for a defensive load, and I have some IMI M855 that groups in the same ballpark, good enough for 100-yard practice.  But I only have 700 rds of IMI, and back in 2021 decided to start loading 62gr Hornady FMJs as a "practice" load.  I was hoping to get the Hornadys to group about where the IMI load is.  But after thinking about it, I have to say that I think Borderpatrol has the right idea.  I'll be shooting the Hornady load far more than the defense loads, and therefore the rifle should be zeroed for them.  The odds of ever using said Gold Dots for defense is pretty low, and just knowing where they group vs the practice loads is probably a better way to go about it.

I have a tentative plan:

1) I really need to look into getting a chronograph.  I think there are some sky-screen chronos with LEDs that might work.  I can't see spending $300+ chronograph for making practice/non-match/non-hunting cartridges though.

2) Work up milder loads for the already primed cases and use them up.

3) I had already been planning on selling 5k of the CCI primers off anyways, as I have a severe imbalance in primers vs bullets/powder.  I have bullets for about 8000 cartridges, and enough TAC powder for about 8800 cartridges, but 13800 primers, so it seems to me that selling the surplus primers is a good idea.  Given that I paid 4c/primer back in the mid 2000s, if I can get even 6c/per that would be okay by me.  8000 rounds is pretty much a lifetime supply for me at this point (I'm pushing 60 years old, and dont generally shoot more than 1k rds/year rifle).  But given how cash strapped people seem to be, it may be a challenge selling them at all.  If I can sell the CCI 400s for say 6c/per that results in a modest profit, even after buying 6k CCI 41s.

sooo....  I am going to try and sell off the the CCI400s (13800), and get 6k of the CCI 41s.  This will remedy my severe primer imbalance and let me use up the already primed cases using milder loads.   I should then have about 5000 bullets, and 5800 cartridges worth of powder, so getting 6k of the harder primers should do the job.  I can always pick up a few hundred more bullets to use up the powder I have.

I also have plenty of factory 5.56 to use up or leave to my son.

Lots of food for thought for sure.

Sounds like a good plan.  I will say, Garmin's are as common as sandbags at most gun ranges now.  And move as easily as moving a deck of cards.  Quite possible someone will be happy to walk over and let you run a quick 5 round group or so to show off his new toy.   The things are a game changer - what used to be a PITA, is now easier and faster than "let me see what chow options are nearby, real quick".

Yep.  I did some quick reading about what is available in chronographs, and reading what people have to go through to get the sunscreen type to work correctly reminds me of what a pain in the butt it used to be.   The newer radar-type units sound nice, but wow, the price...

I haven't seen anyone using a chronograph of any type at the range in years, so it seems unlikely that I'd be able to find someone willing to let me use their chronograph.

Just grab the cheap one, like I did, around 80 bucks on Amazon, I think it was.  The Caldwell.

Or, for a little more money, this is what I have.  Can use your phone as a remote and even calls out the velocity of each shot.
On sale from MidwayUSA for $135.07. (Couldn’t get the link to paste).

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13,000 primers is not that much.

If you really want to sell them, you probably can find someone who would buy at 6 cents.

But, I'd just keep them and shoot them at more moderate pressure. You will be fine. They will be plenty accurate.

This.  I once comingled 16# of two rifle powders by mistake (don't ask).   Know what I did?  I made minimum charge based on the faster powder, and ran it as ultra-mild 3-gun ammo for fast target recovery.  I used 30 gr TNT bullets that I bought 7000 of for 3 cents a piece (when Wideners got bought and moved warehouses - I should have bought 50,000).  

I burned though that entire inventory in less than 2 years.   Run and gun blaster ammo, if you have a range that will let you do that and practice doing that, will go like water.  Those primers will go fast in mild loads for such.

Don't convince yourself they are worthless since wont' run full hot pressure.  Because you will find settings where mild low report / low recoil ammo not only work fine, but are of benefit.

Agree that the CCI 400's are perfectly acceptable for regular .223 level loadings but...

They are thinner than the 41's and not really the 'same' in a lot of respects.

I caught them on sale last week at Brownells and they had a no hazmat deal going on at the same time so I laid in a few more k of them (and other hazmat stuff) just because I could.  


Like you, most of the AR ammo I load is at .223 levels and not at the top end or leaning into 5.56 level loadings. CCI 400's will and do work just fine for that.



I stopped buying pistol primers years ago and pretty much only stock the 400's and 41's now. (the 400's working just fine in every small primer using pistol that I happen to own so far).

They’re as flat as I would dare.  Since it’s just the beginning of summer and the temps are going up I’d try those loads reduced by half a grain to give you more breathing room.  

Ideally swap primers for the Wolf magnum or 556 primer, Cci450, Rem 7.5 or cci41.  I avoid winchester now, too many issues since they stopped the chrome plating of the cups.  They ain’t what they used to be.   Federal I think has a 556 primer now too.

The old winchester silver colored primers were good to go if you see them for a trade.



+1 for the average joe punching paper on a square range under 300 yards a little less speed is nothing to worry about and may improve accuracy to boot.

- a fairly hot load tested safe is all fine and dandy until you use it in much warmer weather and put it in a different rifle than you tested the load with......ask me how I know. . It was Ballc2 powder though and me changing from A2 to my carbine. It cost me a firing pin.   Oh and I was using CCI400s.

And for the record:

SAAMI max pressure for .223 Remington is 55,000 psi

SAAMI max pressure for 5.56 NATO is 62,366 psi

Maybe somebody knows why SAAMI came up with such a specific number as 62,366.
Seems oddly specific to me.

Its been over twenty years, but here's what happened to me with CCI 400's when I ran them in a Krieger-barrel AR-15 on hot days.
23.5 grains N-135 with an 80-grain SMK loaded to 2.400" OAL.
Loaded in virgin REMINGTON .223 brass.

Attached File


And here's what Quickload says about that load.
If Quickload is right, I wasn't even at max by .223 Remington standards.
Although I doubt it, maybe Quickload calculates things funny when the loading density (compressed loads) exceeds 100%.

Attached File

I would guess that odd and specific number was a number crunch or table conversion from CUP.   Just spitballing out ideas on that though.  I don’t think there is a true conversion from CUP

If N135 is akin to H4895 rate wise, it peaks rather quick. I bet the same load density under a 77 SMK at mag length would make a mild-moderate crater, little more than OP's.

Max pressure should account for the higher deviants, not be the mean average.

That’s a logical way to think about it.

It's more complicated than that. 5.56 NATO is tested by different methods than SAMMI. But to answer your question, 62,366 PSI equals 430 MPa.


https://ballistictools.com/articles/5.56-vs-.223-myths-and-facts.php

No gunstore within an hour drive that I've checked with has CCI 41s.  That includes Bass Pro.  Cabelas is too far to drive, and they don't have them either.  If someone did have them, I'd seriously consider making a drive, but alas no.

I've found them online for so-so prices, but haven't ordered yet.  I had hoped to sell my CCI 400s to fund the 41s, with a little left over, but nobody has shown any interest for a face to face sale, even at $60/1000.

They still have bad batches often enough that I caution against buying them.