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Posted: 5/25/2024 4:01:56 PM EDT
I took a screenshot of the 223 bullets available from American Reloading as of five minutes ago. I'd like to post what I think I've learned from my own research into these products and get your feedback, please. Please feel free to reply by number.
1) In general, whether or not any of these are suitable for my reloading strategy depends mostly on the particular type of shooting I intend to do with them. 2) Blems should be more accurate than pulls but there are a lot of variables and whether or not the differences are significant depend on each batch and 1) above. 3) Blems and pulls may be as accurate or very close to as accurate as factory bullets but they may also be much worse. 4) For non-precision shooting, the difference in accuracy may not matter. 5) For CQB training and other, close-range uses, the difference in accuracy does not matter. 6) Pulled bullets should not be used as self- or home-defense rounds because the deformities caused by pulling affect bullet performance. 7) Blem bullets should not be used as self- or home-defense rounds as the defects may be deformities that affect bullet performance. 8) Mixed bullets are the cheapest but require the most work due to sorting. 9) Sorting mixed bullets is a skill that can be learned and, once learned, the only difference with mixed bullets is the time it takes to sort them. 10 ) I shouldn't buy bullets with cannelures unless I want to reload ammunition with cannelures. Price shouldn't push me into that choice. If I apply this to the screenshot below, I would be looking at getting some of the 55/62 grain mix pulled for blasting and some of the 69/73/77 HBPTs for target shooting, barricade drills, and etc. at long ranges. Either that or wait until the 223 55 grain M193 FMJ BLEMs come back into stock. Thanks! 
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:06:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: dryflash3]
[#1]
Double post
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:22:35 PM EDT
[#2]
Originally Posted By Cascade-Dude: I took a screenshot of the 223 bullets available from American Reloading as of five minutes ago. I'd like to post what I think I've learned from my own research into these products and get your feedback, please. Please feel free to reply by number. 1) In general, whether or not any of these are suitable for my reloading strategy depends mostly on the particular type of shooting I intend to do with them. 2) Blems should be more accurate than pulls but there are a lot of variables and whether or not the differences are significant depend on each batch and 1) above. 3) Blems and pulls may be as accurate or very close to as accurate as factory bullets but they may also be much worse. 4) For non-precision shooting, the difference in accuracy may not matter. 5) For CQB training and other, close-range uses, the difference in accuracy does not matter. 6) Pulled bullets should not be used as self- or home-defense rounds because the deformities caused by pulling affect bullet performance. 7) Blem bullets should not be used as self- or home-defense rounds as the defects may be deformities that affect bullet performance. 8) Mixed bullets are the cheapest but require the most work due to sorting. 9) Sorting mixed bullets is a skill that can be learned and, once learned, the only difference with mixed bullets is the time it takes to sort them. 10 ) I shouldn't buy bullets with cannelures unless I want to reload ammunition with cannelures. Price shouldn't push me into that choice. If I apply this to the screenshot below, I would be looking at getting some of the 55/62 grain mix pulled for blasting and some of the 69/73/77 HBPTs for target shooting, barricade drills, and etc. at long ranges. Either that or wait until the 223 55 grain M193 FMJ BLEMs come back into stock. Thanks! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/582146/American_Relaoding_223-3223139.png If buying .224 55 gr FMJBT's check the price of Hornady 55 gr FMJBT's they are the gold standard of this bullet type. So you know going in if a cheap bullet is worth it. To me it's not. 2. never had any accuracy issues with pulled. Remember you didn't pay for a match bullet. I buy them all the time. 3, 4, 5, 6, ya just common sense. 7. A tumble in corn cob and blems become just fine. Sweat equality and all that. 8, 9. The only time I get out a digital scale. With practice, this goes very fast. Then off to tumbler. 10. You are overthinking this. Cannelure is a "suggested seating depth" you are not bound to follow. I have sorted thousands of those 55/62 .224 soft points from AR. I prefer soft points over FMJ for every day loads. For me, 5 shot 100 yd group (Hornady .224 55 gr FMJBT's) go about 1 1/4 inch. Same exact load, same rifle, same day, the (Hornady .224 55 gr soft points) go into about 3/4 inch. In summery, don't be scared of pulls or blems. Great for every day ammo. For serious ammo buy the correct bullet for the task. |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:29:39 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:32:48 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryThat's a hard pass for me, not Hornady.
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USA
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:34:16 PM EDT
[#5]
I bought a 1000 of their mixed bullets several years and would never do it again. To much of a pain sorting them.
I also bought 6000 or 7000 thousand of there pulled 55 gr sp's that turned out to be Hornady bullets (at least they looked exactly the same). They ended up being less than 5 cents a round. They shot great and killed several deer with them. I wouldn't hesitate to use them for anything. |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:42:40 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: If buying .224 55 gr FMJBT's check the price of Hornady 55 gr FMJBT's they are the gold standard of this bullet type. I didn't see this one on AR's site so I'm assuming you mean when buying new bullets, this is the go-to 55-grain FMJBY. So you know going in if a cheap bullet is worth it. To me it's not. 11.6 cents per bullet for the gold standard versus 5.2 for mixed-manufacturer blems. Point taken. Me either. Thanks! 8, 9. The only time I get out a digital scale. With practice, this goes very fast. Then off to tumbler. Sounds like something I could do without problem. 10. You are overthinking this. Cannelure is a "suggested seating depth" you are not bound to follow. Gotcha, thanks! For serious ammo buy the correct bullet for the task. That's where I started and after going around the block a couple of times, where I'm ending up. $60 per thousand bullets difference in price doesn't lead me to want to put blems in my serious ammo supply. Comments in blue above. Thanks! |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:45:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Willz]
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: If buying .224 55 gr FMJBT's check the price of Hornady 55 gr FMJBT's they are the gold standard of this bullet type. So you know going in if a cheap bullet is worth it. To me it's not. 2. never had any accuracy issues with pulled. Remember you didn't pay for a match bullet. I buy them all the time. 3, 4, 5, 6, ya just common sense. 7. A tumble in corn cob and blems become just fine. Sweat equality and all that. 8, 9. The only time I get out a digital scale. With practice, this goes very fast. Then off to tumbler. 10. You are overthinking this. Cannelure is a "suggested seating depth" you are not bound to follow. I have sorted thousands of those 55/62 .224 soft points from AR. I prefer soft points over FMJ for every day loads. For me, 5 shot 100 yd group (Hornady .224 55 gr FMJBT's) go about 1 1/4 inch. Same exact load, same rifle, same day, the (Hornady .224 55 gr soft points) go into about 3/4 inch. In summery, don't be scared of pulls or blems. Great for every day ammo. For serious ammo buy the correct bullet for the task. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Originally Posted By Cascade-Dude: I took a screenshot of the 223 bullets available from American Reloading as of five minutes ago. I'd like to post what I think I've learned from my own research into these products and get your feedback, please. Please feel free to reply by number. 1) In general, whether or not any of these are suitable for my reloading strategy depends mostly on the particular type of shooting I intend to do with them. 2) Blems should be more accurate than pulls but there are a lot of variables and whether or not the differences are significant depend on each batch and 1) above. 3) Blems and pulls may be as accurate or very close to as accurate as factory bullets but they may also be much worse. 4) For non-precision shooting, the difference in accuracy may not matter. 5) For CQB training and other, close-range uses, the difference in accuracy does not matter. 6) Pulled bullets should not be used as self- or home-defense rounds because the deformities caused by pulling affect bullet performance. 7) Blem bullets should not be used as self- or home-defense rounds as the defects may be deformities that affect bullet performance. 8) Mixed bullets are the cheapest but require the most work due to sorting. 9) Sorting mixed bullets is a skill that can be learned and, once learned, the only difference with mixed bullets is the time it takes to sort them. 10 ) I shouldn't buy bullets with cannelures unless I want to reload ammunition with cannelures. Price shouldn't push me into that choice. If I apply this to the screenshot below, I would be looking at getting some of the 55/62 grain mix pulled for blasting and some of the 69/73/77 HBPTs for target shooting, barricade drills, and etc. at long ranges. Either that or wait until the 223 55 grain M193 FMJ BLEMs come back into stock. Thanks! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/582146/American_Relaoding_223-3223139.png If buying .224 55 gr FMJBT's check the price of Hornady 55 gr FMJBT's they are the gold standard of this bullet type. So you know going in if a cheap bullet is worth it. To me it's not. 2. never had any accuracy issues with pulled. Remember you didn't pay for a match bullet. I buy them all the time. 3, 4, 5, 6, ya just common sense. 7. A tumble in corn cob and blems become just fine. Sweat equality and all that. 8, 9. The only time I get out a digital scale. With practice, this goes very fast. Then off to tumbler. 10. You are overthinking this. Cannelure is a "suggested seating depth" you are not bound to follow. I have sorted thousands of those 55/62 .224 soft points from AR. I prefer soft points over FMJ for every day loads. For me, 5 shot 100 yd group (Hornady .224 55 gr FMJBT's) go about 1 1/4 inch. Same exact load, same rifle, same day, the (Hornady .224 55 gr soft points) go into about 3/4 inch. In summery, don't be scared of pulls or blems. Great for every day ammo. For serious ammo buy the correct bullet for the task. I concur about Hornady I find the 55gr soft points to be more accurate than the 55gr FMJBT, but both are best bang for buck bulk bullets. |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:50:49 PM EDT
[#8]
a while back accurate shooter . com had a articale about how much pulled bullets effect accuracy. they pulled some loaded ammo with diagonal cutters intentionally giving the bullets LARGE angled grooves on 2 sides of the bullet. they they loaded it up and tested for accuracy against the other bullets and the difference was almost not measurable. and this was at a bench rest capacity. I think you are gtg with whatever bullets you can find.
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:54:31 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: That's a hard pass for me, not Hornady. I posted that after seeing the first of the double posts, which only had the one line. I took it in the context of American Reloading. Were I loading Hornady 55-grain FMJBT and putting it in storage, would the bullets I linked be an acceptable substitute for large volume training/range use? The loads I think I want to eventually stockpile are: 53-55 grain V-MAX or similar. 55-grain M193 62-grain M855 or similar 75-77-grain SMK, TMK, or similar |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 5:56:29 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slappomatt: a while back accurate shooter . com had a articale about how much pulled bullets effect accuracy. they pulled some loaded ammo with diagonal cutters intentionally giving the bullets LARGE angled grooves on 2 sides of the bullet. they they loaded it up and tested for accuracy against the other bullets and the difference was almost not measurable. and this was at a bench rest capacity. I think you are gtg with whatever bullets you can find. Interesting. Thanks. I'll go see if I can find the article. Sounds like something worth reading. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/25/2024 6:38:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoeDevola]
[#11]
Well, I've loaded and shot a ton of both blems & pulls of their pistol bullets. The load I was using to hit the 100 yard plate, with my sidearm, was using a 115gr JHP pull.
Never had any accuracy or reliability issues with their pistol bullets. Have never used any of their blem rifle bullets, only pulls, and only 55 & (moreso) 62 gr soft points. I do agree that the 55s I received appeared identical to the Hornady's I have, and I have killed coyotes with them just as dead as any other load/bullet. I can say there IS variance. One batch had about 160 bullets that looked like crap, with deep marks. Those will be reserved for short range training only. All others have been acceptable. I've seen NO accuracy issues with the ones that look decent (which was the vast majority). In fact, the 62gr SP load with these is actually slightly more accurate than the same load with new Hornady 62gr FMJ (in my experience SPs are more accurate than FMJ all things being equal). If there IS an accuracy difference between these and brand new soft points, I as a mediocre shooter with good but average quality rifles will never be able to tell the difference, which I accept. I am not a bench rest shooter, nor do I own any Criterion barrels. I have ZERO problems whatsoever using any of these pulls, be it pistol or rifle, for defense. Or offense. They're accurate, they perform well, they function 100% in my guns. Those are my only criteria. 40rnd Pmag in the house gun full of 62gr SP as we speak. I don't really see the point in buying FMJ pulls from them, when brand new FMJs are available for just a little more from Sages & others. But to me, the soft points were a good deal. I'll probably buy more in the future if they keep the prices decent. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go load up more of those SP right now! Got 300 more to go.  ETA: me, I don't care about cannelures, as I don't crimp any rifle ammo. So I'd never pay more just to have the cannelure. |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 7:08:21 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoeDevola: Well, I've loaded and shot a ton of both blems & pulls of their pistol bullets. The load I was using to hit the 100 yard plate, with my sidearm, was using a 115gr JHP pull. Never had any accuracy or reliability issues with their pistol bullets. Have never used any of their blem rifle bullets, only pulls, and only 55 & (moreso) 62 gr soft points. I do agree that the 55s I received appeared identical to the Hornady's I have, and I have killed coyotes with them just as dead as any other load/bullet. I can say there IS variance. One batch had about 160 bullets that looked like crap, with deep marks. Those will be reserved for short range training only. All others have been acceptable. I've seen NO accuracy issues with the ones that look decent (which was the vast majority). In fact, the 62gr SP load with these is actually slightly more accurate than the same load with new Hornady 62gr FMJ (in my experience SPs are more accurate than FMJ all things being equal). If there IS an accuracy difference between these and brand new soft points, I as a mediocre shooter with good but average quality rifles will never be able to tell the difference, which I accept. I am not a bench rest shooter, nor do I own any Criterion barrels. I have ZERO problems whatsoever using any of these pulls, be it pistol or rifle, for defense. Or offense. They're accurate, they perform well, they function 100% in my guns. Those are my only criteria. 40rnd Pmag in the house gun full of 62gr SP as we speak. I don't really see the point in buying FMJ pulls from them, when brand new FMJs are available for just a little more from Sages & others. But to me, the soft points were a good deal. I'll probably buy more in the future if they keep the prices decent. Now if you'll excuse me I'm gonna go load up more of those SP right now! Got 300 more to go. ETA: me, I don't care about cannelures, as I don't crimp any rifle ammo. So I'd never pay more just to have the cannelure. Thanks, Joe! I know I can always count on you for the practical shooter's viewpoint. Regarding FMJ, I'm thinking about the time I shot the inside of the barricade by accident with my 300 BLK and got hit in the thigh by something. At the time, I was saying splinter but after thinking about it, I think it was a ricochet fragment. I was wearing long johns and insulated work pants. Hard to believe splinters caused two blood blisters though all of that. I was firing frangible ammo with the 300 blackout. The two times I shot the barricade with .223, they were FMJ and they both went clean through. I'm going to investigate the splintered part of the barricade as soon as it stops raining and see if I can find any fragments in it. I've pretty-much already decided, for safety, to have a hard and fast rule about not using anything but FMJ with the barricades. Watching multiple people making the gong ring at 50 and 100 yards wit their sidearms was but one of the many amazing things I saw last weekend. You, especially, were popping that thing. You may be a medicore shooter but that was not mediocre shooting. ;) I mean, especially with the 10-15 mph winds we had up there nearly constantly. |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 7:27:12 PM EDT
[#13]
Back in the day Wideners would sell M855 green tips cheap that were oblong from being pulled, and they had marks.
The worst ones I ran through a Lee .225 bullet sizing die to get them round. Yes you can size jacketed bullets, just use a little case lube on them. Not the most accurate bullet, but they shot fine. If you want a cheap bullets for range practice, get some and make up your own mind. If you do, don't be scared of blems or them being pulled. |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 7:48:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Back in the day Wideners would sell M855 green tips cheap that were oblong from being pulled, and they had marks. The worst ones I ran through a Lee .225 bullet sizing die to get them round. Yes you can size jacketed bullets, just use a little case lube on them. Not the most accurate bullet, but they shot fine. If you want a cheap bullets for range practice, get some and make up your own mind. If you do, don't be scared of blems or them being pulled. Wow. As a result of this thread, I'm fine using either blems or pulled for training and the range. "Perfection" is often the sworn enemy of "good enough."  I'm on their notification list for the 55-grain FMJBT blems. If I manage to get some, I'll use them for barricade training loads. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2024 8:17:44 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Back in the day Wideners would sell M855 green tips cheap that were oblong from being pulled, and they had marks. The worst ones I ran through a Lee .225 bullet sizing die to get them round. Yes you can size jacketed bullets, just use a little case lube on them. Not the most accurate bullet, but they shot fine. Even back when Wideners sold brand new SS109's they were 'not the most accurate bullet'. |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 8:59:40 PM EDT
[#16]
I have bought thousands of the 55/62 mix from AR.
At half the price of new, it is well worth it in my mind. I don't have the range or equipment to do much more than blasting but last time I was out, I was ringing 200yd steel consistently with pulled bullets. The digital scale adds reassurance but I find I can sort even the 55/62 mix by sight. |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 10:18:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryI just got some of those in today and can take a picture if you want. |
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Posted: 5/25/2024 10:40:53 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Aaron56: Even back when Wideners sold brand new SS109's they were 'not the most accurate bullet'. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/25/2024 10:54:56 PM EDT
[Last Edit: JoeDevola]
[#19]
Yeah Cascade Dude, that was why I wanted you to check yourself, because bullets do wierd things, and you never know. I think you are right, it must have been bullet fragments hitting you. Makes sense.
So in the loading I just did, I loaded up 100 of those "less than ideal" 62gr SP for training fodder. I think at some point I'm gonna shoot a group of them, and the better looking ones side bu side to compare accuracy. These things look hideous! ETA: hitting that plate at 100 yards (4.8gr Titegroup, pulled 115gr Hi-Shok JHP) is the first time in my life I've ever done such a thing. I was surprised at the 50% hit rate. The chick running the 1911 was hitting it, so I figured I'd try. I'm still amazed! Till that moment I'd only ever shot pistols to 50 yards. |
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MT, USA
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Posted: 5/25/2024 11:57:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: spyderboy03]
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: I just got some of those in today and can take a picture if you want. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: I just got some of those in today and can take a picture if you want. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 12:24:30 AM EDT
[#21]
I have been looking for the article I mentioned and I cant find it. here is one a found from the good ole BOX O TRUTH!
https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-49-damaged-bullet-accuracy-and-the-box-o-truth.386/ |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:41:30 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: I just got some of those in today and can take a picture if you want. That would be helpful. Yes, please. |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:49:58 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By slappomatt: I have been looking for the article I mentioned and I cant find it. here is one a found from the good ole BOX O TRUTH! https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-49-damaged-bullet-accuracy-and-the-box-o-truth.386/ That was a good read. Nice and concise. And interesting data too. Given the extent of the damage he did, I gotta think less damage would have given even better results. Thanks! |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 7:50:51 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoeDevola: Yeah Cascade Dude, that was why I wanted you to check yourself, because bullets do wierd things, and you never know. I think you are right, it must have been bullet fragments hitting you. Makes sense. I heard it in your voice. Thanks for looking out for me! |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 5:52:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Zhukov]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Cascade-Dude: That would be helpful. Yes, please. I don't know why the bullets look splotchy in the picture - probably just a camera artifact due to low light...  I'll probably run them through some corn cob media to shine them up a little. Good looking bunch of bullets for that price though! |
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Posted: 5/26/2024 6:53:15 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: I don't know why the bullets look splotchy in the picture - probably just a camera artifact due to low light... https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/38579/2024-05-26_15-57-30-3224216.jpg I'll probably run them through some corn cob media to shine them up a little. Good looking bunch of bullets for that price though! Yep, I gotta agree with you. Those look pretty good. Thank you very much, Sir! |
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Posted: 5/27/2024 9:20:28 AM EDT
[#27]
I've shot a lot of factory seconds, even bought them by the pound from Sierra back when I lived in Missouri. They shoot good enough. It takes a very good shooter to be able to tell the difference between them. You can also buy very good bullets at the price of lower quality stuff and in my experience the seconds and pulls shoot better than the retail low end stuff. Killed more than a couple of deer with them too.
Since I do not live in a mega mansion, have a super model wife and am only 5'8" I get to choose to shoot few top end bullets or a lot more cheaper bullets so yeah, I save the money for gas to drive to the range. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 9:56:07 AM EDT
[#28]
Hornady 55gr FMJBT are certainly the gold standard for accuracy in this bullet type.
There is a good reason They have a thicker copper jacket. The downside is they do not perform like military M193 when hitting flesh so are not the best for loading up a SD stash but then with proper shot placement that may be irrelevant I am guessing but I have loaded well north of 250K Hornady 55gr and they are the best training projectile IMO Never had a problem loading any I would not use them for SD but that is me The blems from AR (I have bought 5K of them) have 2 very different bullets. Look at Z's pick center left of the 3 bullets. Notice the cannelure is very different on one than the other 2. I line them up straighten out the line and separate the cannelures into separate batches. For 50% off I am OK with that. |
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MS, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 10:06:36 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By dryflash3: Yes a 2 moa bullet on a good day. Many, many moons ago I spent a good bit of time with those weight sorting them and working up loads so I could send them downrange in what at the time was the nicest match grade barrel I had. (real .223 chamber match, SS, 1/8, cryo treated blah, blah) Several different really good powders, good primers, proper load work ups, etc. In the end I had to learn the hard way that those pills are not, never will be and never were intended to be 'match' grade bullets. Does not matter how good the barrel is if the projectile does not have the potential to begin with. I never could get a 10 shot group that would be close to 2 MOA with those. (Same barrel that could shoot 'proper' match grade projectiles into dime size groups with no issues) Wasted barrel life on those I did! 
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/27/2024 10:25:51 AM EDT
[#30]
The notion seating depth is not important is flat out wrong but not so much the seating depth but the relationship of the cannelure to the case mouth
The cannelure marks the spot of the case mouth not the seating depth. You can seat a 223 from 2.110 to 2.160 longer if you are shooting single shot but 2.160 to use in a magazine The case mouth should "never"cover the cannelure as it now passes the ogive which means you are moving the mouth over the taper curved bullet and that can increase pressure greatly That is a bad thing That makes having the same cannelure bullet (separating those AR blems) and the same case length important. It does not matter if you case is trimmed to 1.750 or is 1.800 what matters is you are seating the bullet to the safe part of that case and which is why your cases need to be similar in length so you are not seating past the ogive. The cannelure is a visual marker to allow you to "know" you are safe Another reason to load cases of the same length is if you crimp the crimp should be the same and if the case lengths vary the point of the crimp will vary One of the most important things to desire in reloaded ammo is consistency. If your rounds are the same length, cases and OAL, if you are using the same primers, same powder, same bullets and yes even the same case maker you increase consistency Sitting around with a group of AR shooters that reloaded I was mentioning what I posted ^^^^^ and one guy said, wow, I think you just explained how I blew up that Bushmaster. Another guy then said, see this scar and another said say that again I need to write it down Someone better than me shared that which is how I went duh, that explains things and at 75 I have both eyes and all my fingers Reloading is one thing where what you don't know may be dangerous or in reloading ignorance is far from bliss so never ever pass the ogive with the case mouth |
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Posted: 5/28/2024 2:31:54 AM EDT
[#31]
Some of the blem offerings in the past have looked worse than the pulls. Pulls in .223 FMJ have generally been a consistent bullet design, which was nice. Mixed lot blems I don’t think will be as consistent. Either way, they can be pretty cheap for sure.
I never worry about shining them up prior to loading either, as I polish the completed cartridges for 15 min or so, this accomplishes the same thing. They shoot mostly the same whether shiny or ugly anyhow. |
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Posted: 5/29/2024 11:17:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: dryflash3]
[#32]
This has been a very educational thread. Thanks, everybody!
I love the expertise here and the way y'all share your knowledge and skills so generously. I am light years ahead of where I'd be without all the tech help here. Remember we are here to help, and please leave the memes in GD, thanks dryflash3 |
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Posted: 5/29/2024 12:50:39 PM EDT
[#33]
I ONCE bought a thousand pulled 173 grain 308 match bullets. They were very inaccurate. When I measured them from base to ogive, the length was very inconsistent resulting in varying pressures when seated to the same overall length. It was my belief that the pressure applied to hold the bullet prior to it being pulled squeezed the bullet hard enough to change the base to ogive length.
I never bought any more pulled bullets. |
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CO, USA
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Posted: 5/29/2024 2:24:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: TGH456E]
[#34]
Sir:
I'm going to disagree with alot of what you are saying here........my replies in italics. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Wulfmann: The notion seating depth is not important is flat out wrong but not so much the seating depth but the relationship of the cannelure to the case mouth The cannelure marks the spot of the case mouth not the seating depth. (Not really...... the cannelure is simply a place to provide the crimp a place to, well, crimp.) You can seat a 223 from 2.110 to 2.160 longer if you are shooting single shot but 2.160 to use in a magazine (Not sure where or why you got those measurements. The typical maximum COAL for an AR15 223mag is 2.26" or 2.25") The case mouth should "never"cover the cannelure as it now passes the ogive which means you are moving the mouth over the taper curved bullet and that can increase pressure greatly That is a bad thing. (No, I disagree. The cannelure is not a "safety stop" or something. It doesn't mark the beginning of the ogive. It is some distance prior to that, how much depends on the bullet/manufacturer. Next, rifle cartridges are not pistol cartridges. Pressure can actually drop if you seat a rifle bullet further in the case, not increase it.) That makes having the same cannelure bullet (separating those AR blems) and the same case length important. It does not matter if you case is trimmed to 1.750 or is 1.800 what matters is you are seating the bullet to the safe part of that case and which is why your cases need to be similar in length so you are not seating past the ogive. The cannelure is a visual marker to allow you to "know" you are safe. (Sort of.......... of course the SAMMI max length is 1.760. But yes, if you are going to crimp, having a consistent case length will mean consistent crimping. Again, No, the cann is not a safety stop or something.) Another reason to load cases of the same length is if you crimp the crimp should be the same and if the case lengths vary the point of the crimp will vary. (yes) One of the most important things to desire in reloaded ammo is consistency. If your rounds are the same length, cases and OAL, if you are using the same primers, same powder, same bullets and yes even the same case maker you increase consistency. (yes) Sitting around with a group of AR shooters that reloaded I was mentioning what I posted ^^^^^ and one guy said, wow, I think you just explained how I blew up that Bushmaster. Another guy then said, see this scar and another said say that again I need to write it down Someone better than me shared that which is how I went duh, that explains things and at 75 I have both eyes and all my fingers Reloading is one thing where what you don't know may be dangerous or in reloading ignorance is far from bliss so never ever pass the ogive with the case mouth. (Yes, you need to know what you are doing and think things thru as you reload. Passing the ogive with the case mouth is a poor practice as it leads to poor accuracy, extremely low velocities and "tells" you that you are trying to load a bullet into a case at a depth it wasn't designed for. I've seen this happen with Service Rifle shooters who attempt-knowing or not- to seat long range bullets {ie the Sierra 80-90's} into a case at "mag length." Doesn't work.) |
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Posted: 5/29/2024 3:17:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: tac556]
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: Sir: I'm going to disagree with alot of what you are saying here........my replies in italics. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By TGH456E: Sir: I'm going to disagree with alot of what you are saying here........my replies in italics. Originally Posted By Wulfmann: The notion seating depth is not important is flat out wrong but not so much the seating depth but the relationship of the cannelure to the case mouth The cannelure marks the spot of the case mouth not the seating depth. (Not really...... the cannelure is simply a place to provide the crimp a place to, well, crimp.) You can seat a 223 from 2.110 to 2.160 longer if you are shooting single shot but 2.160 to use in a magazine (Not sure where or why you got those measurements. The typical maximum COAL for an AR15 223mag is 2.26" or 2.25") The case mouth should "never"cover the cannelure as it now passes the ogive which means you are moving the mouth over the taper curved bullet and that can increase pressure greatly That is a bad thing. (No, I disagree. The cannelure is not a "safety stop" or something. It doesn't mark the beginning of the ogive. It is some distance prior to that, how much depends on the bullet/manufacturer. Next, rifle cartridges are not pistol cartridges. Pressure can actually drop if you seat a rifle bullet further in the case, not increase it.) That makes having the same cannelure bullet (separating those AR blems) and the same case length important. It does not matter if you case is trimmed to 1.750 or is 1.800 what matters is you are seating the bullet to the safe part of that case and which is why your cases need to be similar in length so you are not seating past the ogive. The cannelure is a visual marker to allow you to "know" you are safe. (Sort of.......... of course the SAMMI max length is 1.760. But yes, if you are going to crimp, having a consistent case length will mean consistent crimping. Again, No, the cann is not a safety stop or something.) Another reason to load cases of the same length is if you crimp the crimp should be the same and if the case lengths vary the point of the crimp will vary. (yes) One of the most important things to desire in reloaded ammo is consistency. If your rounds are the same length, cases and OAL, if you are using the same primers, same powder, same bullets and yes even the same case maker you increase consistency. (yes) Sitting around with a group of AR shooters that reloaded I was mentioning what I posted ^^^^^ and one guy said, wow, I think you just explained how I blew up that Bushmaster. Another guy then said, see this scar and another said say that again I need to write it down Someone better than me shared that which is how I went duh, that explains things and at 75 I have both eyes and all my fingers Reloading is one thing where what you don't know may be dangerous or in reloading ignorance is far from bliss so never ever pass the ogive with the case mouth. (Yes, you need to know what you are doing and think things thru as you reload. Passing the ogive with the case mouth is a poor practice as it leads to poor accuracy, extremely low velocities and "tells" you that you are trying to load a bullet into a case at a depth it wasn't designed for. I've seen this happen with Service Rifle shooters who attempt-knowing or not- to seat long range bullets {ie the Sierra 80-90's} into a case at "mag length." Doesn't work.) Thanks for touching on these comments. Seeing mention that someone could trim cases longer than SAAMI max length (1.800” ???), combined with a max OAL that was actually quite short, had me seriously scratching my head, amongst other questions I had about all that! I have seen plenty of factory stuff loaded at a fairly short OAL, but the case length was quite also short to begin with (Speer/Federal LE stuff). And- I think if you followed a long trim length and short OAL recommendation, your cannelure could end up fairly deep in the case I think…. Pretty sure I have a couple guns that wouldn’t chamber something with a long trim length anyhow, as they have fairly tight headspace. They don’t always chamber stuff at the long end of the recommended trim length as it is. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/29/2024 3:54:42 PM EDT
[#36]
There was a day when I tuned into the fact that the end of the chamber can crimp a bullet if the case is too long.
I immediately ordered chamber length gauges ($5) from Sinclair. I have one for every cartridge I reload. I had to know how long was too long. Now I know. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 5/29/2024 8:44:47 PM EDT
[#37]
You are correct I posted the OAL out of memory without double checking. I disagree with most everything else you posted and with 600K++ rounds loaded with all my fingers and all my firearms without incident backs my statements but please do as you please.
At no time should anyone ever seat a projectile past the Ogive I have loaded 1.800 cases but again 1.800 is .040 past 1.760 max length. Factory 223/5.56 loads are 2.215 so if 2.215 is fine for 1.760 then 2.255 being .040 over 2.215 makes 2.255 the equivalent relation Please note knowing your chamber (I have never in the many AR15s I have fired had a chamber too tight to shoot any load) is paramount Certainly this is not recommended for bolt action chamber which may be considerably tighter than an AR chamber My Wylde chambers are fine This is basic core math as in adjusting one means other numbers must vary in coordination One other factor is bullet design. While most projectiles can seat to an OAL of 2.260 any new bullet loading must be verified and never assumed. There are some with longer bullet bearing bodies that will not fit an AR15 magazine loaded to 2.260 and must have a shorter OAL because the feed lips are more tapered (Magpul) than say GI mags If you do not understand the relation to vary one thing and how it affects another please strictly adhere to book dimensions |
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Posted: 5/29/2024 9:50:18 PM EDT
[#38]
Enough arguing about OAL and seating bullets.
Lets get back on topic please, or I'm going to end this thread. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/30/2024 12:49:58 AM EDT
[#39]
The reason I've only run pulls, and not blems, is because I've assumed the blem on the blems might be more than cosmetic, like varying weights or shapes.
Seemed like the pulls are a safer bet for getting a decent bullet than blems. I guess it depends on what you get though, at that particular moment, like rolling the dice. I feel like I've been pretty lucky so far. |
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USA
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Posted: 5/31/2024 12:36:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: JoeDevola]
[#40]
So, American Reloading 62gr SP pulls, the shitty ones on the left, good ones on right. 24.4gr H335, all LC brass.
 Shot from prone supported on an assault pack, 18" gun w/ 1-6x LPVO, 100 yards. The good ones:  The shitty ones.  Yeah, I'm sure Molon's somewhere rolling his eyes. I'm kind of surprised the difference in accuracy is so obvious, but yes, the dinged-up ones I sorted from the others are not stellar performers. |
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Posted: 5/31/2024 1:10:24 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoeDevola: So, American Reloading 62gr SP pulls, the shitty ones on the left, good ones on right. 24.4gr H335, all LC brass. https://i.postimg.cc/HnBN3zZs/20240530-185526.jpg Shot from prone supported on an assault pack, 18" gun w/ 1-6x LPVO, 100 yards. The good ones: https://i.postimg.cc/tg322D7Q/20240530-193213.jpg The shitty ones. https://i.postimg.cc/qqRwBTw4/20240530-194131.jpg Yeah, I'm sure Molon's somewhere rolling his eyes. I'm kind of surprised the difference in accuracy is so obvious, but yes, the dinged-up ones I sorted from the others are not stellar performers. Great information. Thanks! |
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Posted: 5/31/2024 4:36:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: tac556]
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoeDevola: So, American Reloading 62gr SP pulls, the shitty ones on the left, good ones on right. 24.4gr H335, all LC brass. https://i.postimg.cc/HnBN3zZs/20240530-185526.jpg Shot from prone supported on an assault pack, 18" gun w/ 1-6x LPVO, 100 yards. The good ones: https://i.postimg.cc/tg322D7Q/20240530-193213.jpg The shitty ones. https://i.postimg.cc/qqRwBTw4/20240530-194131.jpg Yeah, I'm sure Molon's somewhere rolling his eyes. I'm kind of surprised the difference in accuracy is so obvious, but yes, the dinged-up ones I sorted from the others are not stellar performers. Did you section any of these to see what they were? Might be bonded, or maybe just the training softpoint for the FBI load…. Smeared lead on the tips and green sealant seems like LE pull downs to me, think some of the folks buying 2nds on FBI loads got stuff that looked a lot like that….might have been the training load, don’t recall, but I do recall how crummy they looked due to smeared tips (and that was without bad pull marks!) Gotta pay attention to AR’s notes and pictures, I have had good luck on stuff I have gotten, but have passed up quite a few offerings due to how they described the pull marks and how the photos looked. What you want are “minimal pull marks” is my experience. One of the things I do like about AR is it is kind of a roll of the dice- sometimes their “soft points” are a bonded premium duty bullet, sometimes they are just a basic soft point. If you know what to look for, you can sometimes score some good hard to find stuff. Doesn’t mean it will be a super accurate bullet though! |
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USA
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Posted: 5/31/2024 11:32:53 AM EDT
[#43]
Negative, haven't sawed any of them in half. Not sure I can bring myself to waste one...
The sealant remnant is actually grey, just like the stuff I've cleaned off of HST 9mm pulls I've gotten from them. Camera light is weird. Yeah, one of the lots of these I got did say minimal pull Mark's, and out of 500, about 160 looked like this. I picked 5 of the worst looking ones for the test. The sealant is really stuck on those. The others from the lot, and the other lot I got, were all fine, truly minimal pull marks. Absolutely just a roll of the dice, and I can't fault them, these ARE second-hand one way or another, and you just can't beat the price. |
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Posted: 5/31/2024 5:19:14 PM EDT
[#44]
Agreed- paid 5 cents each for my TBBC 62 gr pulls. Saw nothing that had serious pull marks like that at all…
They were labeled as “62 gr soft points”. Bought some, realized what they were, bought more, for 5k total. Regret not buying even more… Next time they had them (that I saw), they knew what they were and priced them a lot higher. I rolled the dice on some other soft points once, and they were just basic soft points. Still worth what I paid. You win some you lose some! |
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Posted: 5/31/2024 5:52:06 PM EDT
[#45]
Opportunity and risk are often served up in equal portions.
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Posted: 5/31/2024 11:22:44 PM EDT
[#46]
There was a thread not too long ago on a similar track, and the consensus was the blems were usually a lot better choice than pulls. Pulls could get pretty ugly, blems were more uniform and in better shape.
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Posted: 6/1/2024 2:10:52 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Zhukov: There was a thread not too long ago on a similar track, and the consensus was the blems were usually a lot better choice than pulls. Pulls could get pretty ugly, blems were more uniform and in better shape. Depends on if the blem is appearance- like not shiny enough, or dimensional/weight. Some of the blem .224 FMJ’s look pretty bad for how much lead is stuffed in the end (aka- normal Winchester FMJ quality!) |
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USA
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Posted: 7/1/2024 6:32:46 PM EDT
[#48]
I maybe, might, be done with blems.
Got some blem 124gr 9mm FMJ from AmRel a few weeks ago. They're all slightly undersized. Notice it when seating, it's loosey-goosey, like with worn brass (which this batch is not). Shot fine, ran a bunch of them in training 3 weeks ago. Haven't chrono'd them yet, may do so soon. Not a huge deal, and the price was right, as always. But it leads me to think, again, that pulls are better than blems. |
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Posted: 7/1/2024 9:49:20 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JoeDevola: I maybe, might, be done with blems. Got some blem 124gr 9mm FMJ from AmRel a few weeks ago. They're all slightly undersized. Notice it when seating, it's loosey-goosey, like with worn brass (which this batch is not). Shot fine, ran a bunch of them in training 3 weeks ago. Haven't chrono'd them yet, may do so soon. Not a huge deal, and the price was right, as always. But it leads me to think, again, that pulls are better than blems. Pulls are better in my mind, except if they are plated (TMJ’s). I stick with FMJ pulls or blems over any TMJ pulls, as those can be undersized. Got in some 9mm 115 FMJ blems today, look fine for plinking. Also got in some .223 JSP pulls, about half are 55 gr flat base SP, half are 64 gr flat base SP, with a couple 62 gr Gold Dots thrown in the mix just to make me on my feet. Not exactly the projectiles I was hoping for, but still dirt cheap at 5.5 cents each delivered. |
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USA
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Posted: 7/2/2024 1:21:44 AM EDT
[#50]
Yeah these 124gr are measuring .3545, .3540, .3535, etc. Only about 1 in 20 are .355.
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