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Posted: 7/14/2017 9:57:58 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would the high brass want to switch to a harder hitting round? Maybe they foresee fighting China and/or Russia in the future and our potential enemies have created body armor counters to 5.56. Also maybe the Army has better .30 cal rounds in development and have not released the info. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why would the high brass want to switch to a harder hitting round? Maybe they foresee fighting China and/or Russia in the future and our potential enemies have created body armor counters to 5.56. Also maybe the Army has better .30 cal rounds in development and have not released the info. Quoted:
I've also learned that armies adjust to the weapons they have. If they have less rounds, they will fire less rounds in suppressive roles. They will aim more if they have to. But, I'm not so sure that the troops will fire less and aim more, just because their ammo load is halved. Note the similar firing rates in the below examples: Two US soldiers, both on nearly identical terrain 5.56 M4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLHU-_OhT8g 7.62 M14 EBR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiCKHsRoQYo Danish and British soldiers 5.56 M/96 (M4) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLAwAY-YCG0 7.62 L129A1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wENXhoKSR_0 |
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Posted: 7/14/2017 10:52:11 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The people who want .308 have never humped .308 for 12 miles. 5.56 works. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 12:13:58 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was in Infantry from around 1999 to 2005. I don't know if they have changed training or tactics since then. At the time, we had excellent cadre that trained us in the use of 60MM mortars as the platoon leaders "hip pocket artillery". It made a lot of sense to use each weapon system to it's maximum effectiveness. In practice, for whatever reason when I deployed overseas, we rarely used our mortars. We would routinely be disrupted in urban areas of Baghdad by one or two guys with a rifle less than 200 yards away. A quickly deployed mortar or M203 grenade launcher would have eliminated that threat. But in practice, my particular brigade rarely used these items. We didn't even carry them with us on patrol. My thoughts are that out to 200 yards, use your rifles. Beyond that, a grenade launcher or 60mm is a better tool. With moderate training, when I had an M203, it was routine to put a grenade through a window at 200 yards, which would have been ideal in the outskirts of Baghdad. Perhaps other units used their weapons differently, but we did not. Being fairly fresh out of training, I did not understand why we did not better utilize some of the tools we had access too. Overall, we did ok though. Possibly our fires were limited due to the highly populated urban environment, and instead we used what we were most familiar with - rifles and LMG's. Having been trained as a grenadier for a bit though, there were a number of times when our rifles were not effective, but one or two M203's would have done the trick. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
A quickly deployed mortar or M203 grenade launcher would have eliminated that threat. But in practice, my particular brigade rarely used these items. We didn't even carry them with us on patrol. My thoughts are that out to 200 yards, use your rifles. Beyond that, a grenade launcher or 60mm is a better tool. With moderate training, when I had an M203, it was routine to put a grenade through a window at 200 yards, which would have been ideal in the outskirts of Baghdad. Perhaps other units used their weapons differently, but we did not. Being fairly fresh out of training, I did not understand why we did not better utilize some of the tools we had access too. Overall, we did ok though. Possibly our fires were limited due to the highly populated urban environment, and instead we used what we were most familiar with - rifles and LMG's. Having been trained as a grenadier for a bit though, there were a number of times when our rifles were not effective, but one or two M203's would have done the trick. The thing I really like about the 60mm (from a theoretical standpoint, as I'm as civilian as civilian gets) is the fact you can shoot from behind cover. If the enemy has only direct-fire weapons you could take them out without really exposing yourself, beyond the spotter who can be sneaky since he isn't sending fire downrange to give himself away. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 12:31:52 AM EDT
[#4]
I am a big believer in not engaging ANYTHING past 300 meters, with small arms. As long as you got Headquarters Platoon 60mm mortars or something bigger.
Fuck this 7.62 NATO for every soldier bullshit. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 12:37:18 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What is the velocity of M80A1 from a 16" barrel? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 12:37:59 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's what artillery is for. And mortars. And machineguns. And they will fail to suppress the enemy, then run out of ammunition. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why would the high brass want to switch to a harder hitting round? Maybe they foresee fighting China and/or Russia in the future and our potential enemies have created body armor counters to 5.56. Also maybe the Army has better .30 cal rounds in development and have not released the info. Also realize we have not fought a modern army in a long time. It is bold to assume we will always have air superiority in the next war. Calling in for an air strike is meaningless if we don't control the air and the enemy is hitting you with rounds and your 5.56 can't hit them back. I've also learned that armies adjust to the weapons they have. If they have less rounds, they will fire less rounds in suppressive roles. They will aim more if they have to. And they will fail to suppress the enemy, then run out of ammunition. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 12:40:09 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not guaranteed against a formidable foe. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 12:42:08 AM EDT
[#8]
Look at the iMortar, a 12lb 60mm mortar.
 iMortar Lightweight, Manpackable 60mm Mortar and Ammo at SOFIC 2015 If you want to really increase the ability of infantry to engage far targets, issue more of these. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 12:46:57 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good question, I don't know. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 12:48:55 AM EDT
[#10]
They rip big military a new asshole and are worried b cause to them it is a CERTAINTY we are getting a .308 battle rifle substitute soon for the 5.56.
Also I desperately want a backpack fed ps90 now. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 4:45:52 AM EDT
[#11]
Unless this top tier Russian or Chinese body armor is proof against the inevitable mushroom cloud that would end this mythical war, switching calibers to defeat it is super fucking stupid.
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:53:38 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I use to have both, but settled on 5.56 with a .308 bolt gun. I like the .308 because where I live is a lot of open country, but I realize I'll never be shooting at people 500 yards plus. It will probably be like 5ft and under if I ever have to. The 308 nazi are putting you on their list of targets... |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 6:45:21 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I doubt there's many infantrymen who want to hump more weight. 3 years of it was enough for me. My knee is like a loose hinge. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 7:15:07 AM EDT
[#14]
as former Infantry I vote to stay with the 5.56. I'd rather have more for the same weight.
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:14:13 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
as former Infantry I vote to stay with the 5.56. I'd rather have more for the same weight. 
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:19:08 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The last fucking thing you're going to be doing against the Russians is popping off some random shots to draw their artillery. If your enemy has body armor to stop 5.56 then only 7.62 will matter. 240 rounds 5.56 won't matter if it will not go through armor. 120 rounds that work is better than 240 of "will only work if you shoot in the face" |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:19:54 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If your enemy has body armor to stop 5.56 then only 7.62 will matter. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:20:33 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless this top tier Russian or Chinese body armor is proof against the inevitable mushroom cloud that would end this mythical war, switching calibers to defeat it is super fucking stupid. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:27:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, it won't. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If your enemy has body armor to stop 5.56 then only 7.62 will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:32:04 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Unless the US military has found a way to defeat the laws of physics it won't matter whether they use 5.56 or 7.62. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:38:20 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at the iMortar, a 12lb 60mm mortar.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eIgVNGiZVI
If you want to really increase the ability of infantry to engage far targets, issue more of these. 
Seriously, systems like this are the answer to the "overmatch problem". You standardize Mk18 to be light and handy (>6 pounds with Aimpoint T-1 should be very doable), and you push them to your squad grenadiers (and a few other squad/platoon positions too, it that's a whole 'nother thread). You use that weight/bulk savings to get stuff like iMortar, M320, and Carl Gustav out with the rifle platoons where they can squash the shit out of PKMs and the like. Fight "big guns" with bigger guns, not by trying to make your little guns offer bigger performance less often. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:39:26 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
as former Infantry I vote to stay with the 5.56. I'd rather have more for the same weight. Give a high speed, seasoned face shooter an proper M4 and his adversary an Ak, the results will be predictable. Have the two parties swap weapons and the result will still be the same. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:45:45 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 2:49:37 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If your enemy has body armor to stop 5.56 then only 7.62 will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. Idiots on here think that the military operates in some fucking vacuum where only the individual rifle matters. GPMGs, 40mm grenade launchers, mortars, artillery, CAS all come into play. Cutting your ammo load out by a 1/3 or 1/2 is foolish. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 3:22:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. 
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Posted: 7/15/2017 3:29:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Er, ok. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. I mean, artillery is the king of battle for a reason, right? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 3:31:40 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. Apparently Level IV armor makes one a Space Marine, or something. That's good to know. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 3:33:06 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if the new m855a1 or whatever has a 50% chance of defeating modern body armor (no idea, lets just pretend it's 50%), does that mean a hit on body armor that is stopped is completely ineffective? Would it cause some sort of incapacitation anyway or no? At least enough to suppress them so you can maneuver actual weapons on them? I mean, artillery is the king of battle for a reason, right? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 4:44:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So if the new m855a1 or whatever has a 50% chance of defeating modern body armor (no idea, lets just pretend it's 50%), does that mean a hit on body armor that is stopped is completely ineffective? Would it cause some sort of incapacitation anyway or no? At least enough to suppress them so you can maneuver actual weapons on them? I mean, artillery is the king of battle for a reason, right? Velocity and small diameter impact is what will really beat armor. 223 screams out of a barrel, and with a sharp, but hard Point, it'll defeat any armor. With 308, you have a larger diameter bullet and it's "slow", just 2700 fps. And that's out of a 26" barrel. So when it hits, it has a larger surface contact area. So the energy will dissipate more, because of the bigger contact surface. Just like how the old .45 ACP couldn't penetrate a steel helmet, but 9mm could. So you want to transfer as much speed and energy in as little of a spot as you can. There is no upside to going to a 7.62 battle rifle. None. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 4:56:26 PM EDT
[#30]
The money spent buying a useless 7.62 'interim' rifle would be better spent on ammo(blank/sim/live) and practicing battle drills.
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Posted: 7/15/2017 4:58:33 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, unless you are wearing Master Chief Mjolnir Exosuit, Powered armor. You ain't going to deliberately expose yourself to enemy fire. Unless you are really dumb or crazy. So suppress, fix, maneuver and destroy. Or suppress, fix, hit with IDF or CAS, and destroy. Velocity ty and small diameter impact is what will really beat armor. 223 screams out of a barrel, and with a sharp, but hard Point, it'll defeat any armor. With 308, you have a larger diameter bullet and it's "slow", just 2700 fps. And that's out of a 26" barrel. So when it hits, it has a larger surface contact area. So the energy will dissipate more, because of the bigger contact surface. Just like how the old .45 ACP couldn't penetrate a steel helmet, but 9mm could. So you want to transfer as much speed and energy in as little of a spot as you can. There is no upside to goi g to a 7.62 battle rifle. None. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So if the new m855a1 or whatever has a 50% chance of defeating modern body armor (no idea, lets just pretend it's 50%), does that mean a hit on body armor that is stopped is completely ineffective? Would it cause some sort of incapacitation anyway or no? At least enough to suppress them so you can maneuver actual weapons on them? I mean, artillery is the king of battle for a reason, right? Velocity ty and small diameter impact is what will really beat armor. 223 screams out of a barrel, and with a sharp, but hard Point, it'll defeat any armor. With 308, you have a larger diameter bullet and it's "slow", just 2700 fps. And that's out of a 26" barrel. So when it hits, it has a larger surface contact area. So the energy will dissipate more, because of the bigger contact surface. Just like how the old .45 ACP couldn't penetrate a steel helmet, but 9mm could. So you want to transfer as much speed and energy in as little of a spot as you can. There is no upside to goi g to a 7.62 battle rifle. None.
But muh 7.62 knock down purr! |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:07:22 PM EDT
[#32]
Meh, I'd rather have a hotter 5.56.
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:17:26 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at the iMortar, a 12lb 60mm mortar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eIgVNGiZVI
If you want to really increase the ability of infantry to engage far targets, issue more of these.
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:29:30 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If 5.56 AP can't get through then 7.62 AP most likely won't either. I'm sitting here with the RUAG catalog in front of me, and their best AP round is marginal against modern body armour. Unless the US military has found a way to defeat the laws of physics it won't matter whether they use 5.56 or 7.62. You can propel an object faster with 45 grains of propellant vs 25. Maybe they figured a reliable SABOT round? Who knows? Better question is why are they moving up to a round with 2,400 ft/lb^2 of energy vs 1,400 ft/lb^2? Using double energy can push things faster, retain more energy at distance, simple physics. The .308 casing is the parent case, relatively speaking more powder = more speed, more options. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:31:26 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Body armor covers a small percentage of a body anyway. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:35:14 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Look at the iMortar, a 12lb 60mm mortar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eIgVNGiZVI
If you want to really increase the ability of infantry to engage far targets, issue more of these. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:35:50 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fuck you have no idea what you are talking about. Idiots on here think that the military operates in some fucking vacuum where only the individual rifle matters. GPMGs, 40mm grenade launchers, mortars, artillery, CAS all come into play. Cutting your ammo load out by a 1/3 or 1/2 is foolish. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If your enemy has body armor to stop 5.56 then only 7.62 will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. Idiots on here think that the military operates in some fucking vacuum where only the individual rifle matters. GPMGs, 40mm grenade launchers, mortars, artillery, CAS all come into play. Cutting your ammo load out by a 1/3 or 1/2 is foolish. Man vs man. Against an advanced army we have not seen since Vietnam. A round that defeats enemy armor is vital to a units success. Maybe take your anger at the high brass. Ask them why are they changing back to a .308 round? There must be a damn good reason. Unless of course all high brass is stupid? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:37:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the mil teach to aim for the head or chest? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:40:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh my. Apparently Level IV armor makes one a Space Marine, or something. That's good to know. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. Apparently Level IV armor makes one a Space Marine, or something. That's good to know. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:40:49 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Does the mil teach to aim for the head or chest? A friend encountered Chechens with body armor. He's still here. They're all gone. Also, I was trained to aim at the feet. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:40:59 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
More than half of GSWs in combat are in places armor doesn't cover. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So if the new m855a1 or whatever has a 50% chance of defeating modern body armor (no idea, lets just pretend it's 50%), does that mean a hit on body armor that is stopped is completely ineffective? Would it cause some sort of incapacitation anyway or no? At least enough to suppress them so you can maneuver actual weapons on them? I mean, artillery is the king of battle for a reason, right? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:41:20 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unless of course all high brass is stupid? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:41:39 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes it all comes into play. Don't assume you will have it all in a fight. That is foolish. Man vs man. Against an advanced army we have not seen since Vietnam. A round that defeats enemy armor is vital to a units success. Maybe take your anger at the high brass. Ask them why are they changing back to a .308 round? There must be a damn good reason. Unless of course all high brass is stupid? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:42:16 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So we keep current ammo and aim for non armor areas? Let's just stop R&D now? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:45:09 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stop using logic sir.
But muh 7.62 knock down purr! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So if the new m855a1 or whatever has a 50% chance of defeating modern body armor (no idea, lets just pretend it's 50%), does that mean a hit on body armor that is stopped is completely ineffective? Would it cause some sort of incapacitation anyway or no? At least enough to suppress them so you can maneuver actual weapons on them? I mean, artillery is the king of battle for a reason, right? Velocity ty and small diameter impact is what will really beat armor. 223 screams out of a barrel, and with a sharp, but hard Point, it'll defeat any armor. With 308, you have a larger diameter bullet and it's "slow", just 2700 fps. And that's out of a 26" barrel. So when it hits, it has a larger surface contact area. So the energy will dissipate more, because of the bigger contact surface. Just like how the old .45 ACP couldn't penetrate a steel helmet, but 9mm could. So you want to transfer as much speed and energy in as little of a spot as you can. There is no upside to goi g to a 7.62 battle rifle. None.
But muh 7.62 knock down purr! I'll wait.... |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:46:44 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What the velocity of m80a1 again? I'll wait.... Like M855A1. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:48:35 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yes it all comes into play. Don't assume you will have it all in a fight. That is foolish. Man vs man. Against an advanced army we have not seen since Vietnam. A round that defeats enemy armor is vital to a units success. Maybe take your anger at the high brass. Ask them why are they changing back to a .308 round? There must be a damn good reason. Unless of course all high brass is stupid? But, as I said before, military acquisitions isn't here to give the military better tools for fighting war. |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:51:38 PM EDT
[#48]
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You should let us know from your vast experience in combat. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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If only 7.62 defeats your enemy body armor and 5.56 does not then it will matter. Grunt: "Sir, our rounds are not dropping our enemies! It's like m855 against the skinnies!" CO, "Shoot them in the face then soldier!" Grunt, "That's a small target, Sir!" CO, "General discussion in ARFCOM said 5.56 vs 7.62 does not matter!" Unit is over run. So we should or should not develop a round that will defeat a modern army's body armor since most hits are not in the chest area? Why did the mil move away from m855 again and R&D'd mk 262, mk 318 SOST etc??? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 5:58:08 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The answer to that is not monolithic. A friend encountered Chechens with body armor. He's still here. They're all gone. Also, I was trained to aim at the feet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Does the mil teach to aim for the head or chest? A friend encountered Chechens with body armor. He's still here. They're all gone. Also, I was trained to aim at the feet. Why is our higher ups switching to .308? Did our SF engage enemies lately with armor that prevented a pass through? Why the change? There must be a good reason why upping a caliber for soldiers is more important than ammo weight. After all, if something works you keep it until it no longer works, right? |
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Posted: 7/15/2017 6:05:14 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did the Chechens have modern front line state of he art body armor? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Did the Chechens have modern front line state of he art body armor? Why is our higher ups switching to .308? Did our SF engage enemies lately with armor that prevented a hit? Why the change? There must be a good reason why upping a caliber for soldiers is more important than ammo weight. |
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