Airborne became a gentleman/woman’s course but the Army seems to want every division hosting an air assault course these days

you missed a point.

It's 1 1/2 foot wide and worn centered on the back of the service dress coat.

.... how else will people know you're a certified bad ass when you're leading from the front?

Outf*ckingstanding!  Camouflaged body armor.

I promised myself, that if I saw this in GD, I would stay out of it, but fuck it...
I'm re posting from a thread I started in the .Mil section, cause I ain't typing all that again....

I know most don't give a fuck, but the Armor Master Gunner Course was one of the most technically demanding courses with stringent standards for many years. My class started out with 32 and 4 months later 12 graduated. I never even head of Artillery of Patriot or Avenger MG courses until all this came out. and the Artillery MG school based on what I saw on there web site, is 2 weeks.

To the Armor MG community, which is small, they had been asking for recognition for years and having the ASI was equal to Drill Sgt when it cam for promotions, order of Merit,etc.And the MG community had been asking for a badge for years... There were rumblings about a Armor "CIB" after Gulf War 1, which turned into the CAB, because as usual , everyone else had to jump on the bandwagon and not give Armor Branch its fair due on its own,

The design of the badge, with no Tank Symbol, is being seen as a big slap in the face to the Armor MG's. A rifle.. a Missile and a Saber.... This is the Infantry Mafia plain and simple as many of them see it.

It may not be exactly the same, but we see it similar to how the Rangers had there Black Beret taken room them and given to those less deserving.

I know, It's flair, who cares... but this is something that could have been done is a much better fashion, and of course the younger MG's are all saying, hey, its a step in the right direction. But Heraldry will never revise or change the badge, so were stuck with it...
I agree with my Armor MG brothers, we got fucked by the Grunt mafia at Benning. This would never have happened if Armor were still at Knox.

Job Description.

Advise/train Tank Commanders in basic and advanced combat table techniques.
manage and employ tank combat training aid and devices
planning and monitoring individual and crew combat tables
planning, operating and supervising the conduct of tank combat tables.
forecasting ammo requirements.
enforce individual, crew and platoon combat tank table standards.
Monitor and advise commander on turret maintenance programs and trends.

Assists in coordinating logistics support for all unit combat table programs
Assists Maint Personnel in trouble shooting and diagnosing turret malfunctions.
Provides technical feed back to Tank Maintenance supervisor/officer on tank system failures or malfunctions.
Supervise proofing team during bore sighting and calibrations of the tank system.

Assists Commander in preparation of Combat tank table training and insure all gunnery related forms are maintained
Master Gunners will be qualified as I/U-COFT operator /Instructor and serve as technical advisors on fielded Gunnery/combat tables and simulators/devices.
Insure proper utilization of all training devices in order to maximize the training of his unit.

Responsible for Tank Commanders certification program training/testing.(CO/BN)
Responsible for Master Gunner Re Certification program training and testing.(BDE/DIV)
Assists in coordination of LTA,MTA and range scheduling.(BN/BDE/DIV)

Prerequisites: (From the 80's to 90's time Frame-Pre GWOT)
- AC/Reserve
- rank of SSG to SFC
- Must be 19K prior to attending course
- Volunteer
- Be personally interviewed by the BN CO
- minimum 2 years experience as a Tank Commander
- Must have qualified Tank Table 8 within the preceding 12 months.
- Must Pass TCGST (Tank Crew Gunnery skills test) Verbatim in FM17-12-1 withing 3 months of attending the course.
- Must past the TCGST verbatim at the Beginning of the MG course. (Where most failures occur)
- Must have a GT score of 105 and a CO of 110.
- Must Have successfully completed BNCOC.

There are 7 exams thru the course. each one must be passed on the third try with a 90% pass. a third failure anywhere in the course gets you a ticket home. (I watched a guy from 3rd ID fail exam 4 and catch a flight back to Germany... He sobbed in his room that night....

Topics of study
Ammunition
Tank Machine guns
Tank Gun Capabilities
Gun tube technology
AFVID
Fire control/Conduct of Fire
Conduct of Tank ranges
Combat tables
ID COFT matrix
Develop COFT training plan
Training management
firing tables
SDAD (Surface Danger Area Diagram)
Target Acquisition
Range determination
Training devices
Advanced Conduct of Fire
Prep to fire

And this was just in the weapons Dept.
The Turret Maintenance portion (Conducted at Todd Hall at Knox)
Covered Basic Electronics
Hydraulics
Reading schematics
Use of Multi meter.
Troubleshooting electrical and Hydraulic malfunctions.
Theory of operation on Turret components.
We spent a week tearing out every component inside a turret, minus the gun, then put it all back in.
LRF
CCP
Hydrualic Power Pump
Power control systems
Recoil systems

During the weapons phase you had to describe all cycles of operation on the M240/M85 and M2 Machine guns, then be able to Load/Unload/ Function check and dissemble/Assemble them.

I got a first time go on the M240 because I forgot to run the reamer thru the gas ports in the Gas Regulator, like I was taught in the class.... and the Instructor took a pencil lead and broke it off inside one of the holes, which I found out after he No Go's me... Attention to detail was not a cute catch phrase, it was the standard.

I don't expect the majority of you to get it, because since the courses inception, in 1975, 43 years later there are only about 2500-3000 graduates. pretty small number compared to other courses. And it's a pretty tight community like you would expect from any course like this with such a high standard and attrition rate. The cost per Soldier was estimated to be close to $1Million dollars invested in each student, so Units that sent individuals who were not ready for the course, were dealt with harshly.

The Marines and the Canadian Armored forces send there folks there, and in my class I had a Gunny and a Canadian Warrant officer as instructors.

So Yeah, it was a big deal to a lot of us and the design of the badge was a disappointment.


This was the unofficial badge that graduates received. Not Authorized for wear on the Uniform (Suppose to go on right side Class A pocket.)
The current graduates don't give a shit, because they are still in and for them it is a new piece of Flair, and like all fraternal organizations, They stand on the shoulders of those who came before them, and its the older retired guys like me who see it a bit differently.

I get that the younger guys give a shit, that's normal. Just remember this when you get older, and maybe you 'll get where I'm coming from.
There should have been only two courses ID', Tank and Bradley.... the others were just added on to push it thru.... and the Badge design reflects that. Just like a Bill in the Senate. Some love it/ others hate it and a few think its better then nothing.

Outside of Armor branch, You would never hear or know what a Master Gunner is...

OK Kids.. sit down.. Time for a History Lesson from Uncle Harv...

Post VietNam... Army fucked up like a soup sandwich... Armor branch no different... taking a unit to the field and getting them to Boresight tanks and fire gunnery with some as-semblance of knowledge was non existent..

Some Armor guys were working with the Brits, who ,As Usual, Have a unique program that we want to emulate. They have NCO's in there Armor Branch that specialize in all thinks Tank Gunnery... its a career field and he is the SME on the Tank weapon Systems and Gunnery/Training...

So we create a Pilot program in 1975 to give Armor units the same SME. The called them Master Gunners (The Brits called there's Master of Gunnery or something similar).

The Program created these SME's who would go out into the units and spread the knowledge...Each class had about 30-35 students and the course ran for close to 4 months at Ft Knox. You spent your time at Todd Hall (Maint) and then Skidgel Hall (Weapons).

Once graduated, you go back to your unit and CO/BN level and work with the units to improve/enhance gunnery...

Things like the CAT trophy were around for years, we never won them because we sucked... now we had SME's to teach and mentor and create training programs and implement critical components like the importance of keeping TC's/Gunners together to build crew cohesiveness.

Technology changes as well... early training devices were crude... Bolting a M16 with a .22LR sub cal kit onto the main gun and shooting .22 Tracer rds at scaled targets (we called the range Keebler Village's). Mounting M2's on the gun and shooting .50 at 1/4 scale targets on smaller rangers...
Creating skills test like the TCGST (Tank Crew Gunner Skills test) that were made up of common core tasks all tank crews needed to be proficient at.
Creating the Gunnery combat tables so crews now had a bench mark to be measured by.

Keeping track of crew training thru the use of training records and matrix's so you could report to the commander the units progress... who's doing well, who's fucked up and what there fucked up with, and how to unfuck them.
Setting up the units gunnery, running the ranges, and trouble shooting problem tanks that won't take a bore sight or can't seem to calibrate no mater what the crew's do.

Creating the Armament Accuracy checks so crews know and understand there fire control systems and know when it's working and when it's not.

As MG's grew at CO/BN, they were slotted at Division levels to do the same things for the commanders as there right hand SME's. When the Army first started going to places like Hungary to train... it was the Mike Golfs who would create and set up gunnery ranges. Same with Desert Shield in preparation for Desert Storm.

When the Unit Conduct of Fire (UCOFT) simulators and SIMNET came on line in the 80's these Computerized simulators enhanced gunnery even more. It was a low cost way to get TC/Gunners valuable range time without running the tanks. Crews spent hundreds of hours in them perfecting conduct of fire.

Ask any Desert Storm Tank crew how much time they spend in a COFT prior to that war... One of the reasons we did so well in the desert.. all those years perfecting tank gunnery... Program was so successful that the Bradley guys implemented there own MG course with the same goals...

These two courses chugged along all thru the 90's and early 2000's until the GWOT arrived... then the focus changed. And so did the Army.... now they started to bastardize the course and water it down by adding that name to a small arms course.. then the Artillery boys got into it, then aviation and ADA....

See a trend.... Give everyone a Black beret.... and they will start acting like Rangers..... and we all know how that worked...

So yeah, a lot of the older Armor guys who grew up in that era and have seen all this, and the design of the badge and how it got to where it is... Yeah, are Jimmies got rustled a bit.

So yeah, most of you would have never head of it...unless you were a Tanker.
Are we a bit butt hurt by it... yup... should we be... ??? Like most in the Army, unless it directly effects you, most don't give a fuck..

MG school was the hardest thing I did in my career, I spent a year training, and went to two lesser schools (Tank Commanders certification Course at Knox and Reserve Tank Commanders qualification course at Gowen Field,ID) to prep for it, and it was my Proudest moment and it defined me as a NCO from that point until I retired.

So now you know the history... go to bed..

Judging by her age, she’s probably killed more men than you

Dragon scales Attached File

Eleven years, 7 AAM's (3 downgraded from ARCOM's), 2 ARCOM's (1 downgraded from an MSM, 1 V Device denied). That should have been 4 ARCOM's - 1 w/ V Device, and 1 MSM. The MSM was my for my ETS. I never received anything but an excellent, promote ahead of peers, NCOER. I was asked to re-up for 6th deployment when I said no more (I was the an E-6 doing the work of a Platoon Sergeant, who was non-deployable due to bone spurs in his feet). So, I would have held an E-7 slot during deployment, nope I felt the big green weenie too many times. 5 combat deployments, 2 non-combat deployments, 8.5 years overseas. Far from an Audie Murphy type, nothing heroic by true standards, but I ran 5 X 3 on my chest, and was proud of it. No one under the rank of E-7 was ever recommended for a Bronze Star or higher, not a single soldier in my Battalion, that lived to wear it proudly. That's how senior leadership saw the recognition system, you either lived to re-up or move-on, or died fighting for their promotions.

What the fuck is my J3 ASI, then, chopped liver?

Supposedly I was the first gunner in Germany to use the m16/ coax set up. Remember it was kind of cool to look through the sights at the little plastic tanks.
I qualified
I was 1/13 armor 75-79, and my platoon Sargent was a master blaster. Must of been one of the first.

99.9% have no clue what you're talking about. He's a Bradley IFV jock, for you sports fans! But did you ever watch a couple Hadji's have a 3 way with a goat on Thermals?

Supposedly I was the first gunner in Germany to use the m16/ coax set up. Remember it was kind of cool to look through the sights at the little plastic tanks.
I qualified
I was 1/13 armor 75-79, and my platoon Sargent was a master blaster. Must of been one of the first.
Did manage to earn this
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I still love ya.... What I meant was prior to the Bradley MG course, the only game in town was Tank Master gunner... and few knew about it .... When the BFV came along, they mirrored the Tank Program... and few outside the 11M world knew about it either.

The Bradley Fighting Vehicle (BFV) was introduced to the Army in 1981, and the first Bradley Master Gunner Course was established in 1983. The 10-week course, modeled after the 11-week Armor Master Gunner Course, focused on skill levels I through III tasks and instructed 20 and 30-level maintenance on the M240C machine gun and the M242 Bushmaster cannon.

Over the last 25 years, the instruction for the Bradley Master Gunner Course has undergone 10 evolutions, growing from 11 to 14, to 13 to eight weeks. These changes occurred to meet the needs of the force and return highly trained NCOs who possess the technical expertise to implement BFV gunnery and turret maintenance training programs.

The introduction of Army Force Generation (ARFORGEN) necessitated that the 29th Infantry Regiment examine what critical tasks a master gunner must possess, how long it takes to train those tasks, and how to best support the operational force. This article explains not only the Bradley Master Gunner Course; but also what challenges and trends have been observed during ARFORGEN and how the 1st Battalion, 29th Infantry Regiment has adjusted and continues to adjust to support units.

"Because of challenges within ARFORGEN and the needs that have been identified by the field, the course has now undergone its eleventh change in the last 25 years to return highly skilled, technically proficient NCOs to units. To that end, beginning in January 2007, the Bradley Master Gunner Course will increase from 49 training days to 55 training days, or 11 weeks, beginning with Class #1-07.

Bottom line... the course was ignored for years.... and then a bunch of strap hangers come along and copy the course but with much lower standards and critiera, and then decide now to create a badge..... and its an epic abortion of a design.... and a slap in the face to you and I...

I am starting to agree with you, damn first female Master gunner is a petroleum specialist

Bunch of PSGs & 1SG kept telling me in 2013 “you don’t know, it’s a NEW Army” a SSG in recruiting command was telling me some horror stories in 2016. I’d hope all that would start getting reversed in 2017

I went to Bradley MG school in 1988. We were the last class before the move to Building 5500 at Benning.

I know a couple of 19D's (Scouts) that went to both Tank and Bradley MG school.

I'll go by Clothing Sales and buy a badge when they start selling them so when my family buries me someday my uniform will be squared away.

I went from the Marines, where we flair none of the things to the Army, where we flair all of the things. After 4 years I'm still trying to figure out if I've met the minimum required pieces of flair. I do have aircrew wings, so I've got that going for me which is good.

Burn.

Cadet command rents out an entire class at the WTC air assault course every summer, and we pretty much all passed except a couple of females who couldn't even climb a rope.

If that doesn't tell anyone all they need to know about it idk what does

Back in the 1990s the 25th ID’s course was more strict than 10th Mtn Div for whatever reason but I remember some 88M from 63rd RSC Army Reserve who got a slot because he almost won the annual Army 10 miler. I was in the 501st Signal Bn & couldn’t get a slot for 3 years and it took me another 2 in a light infantry battalion to finally get a slot. Later on I bumped into the San Jose State University ROTC during college and almost half of them were getting Airborne or Air Assault and one female got both. I ended up being more impressed with the rappel master course anyway but I started to realize it was all b.s. when an E-7 with no badges or tabs ended up running the LZ at a Fort Ord because none of the PLs could remember how. When I was assigned to 1SFG they had an assload of Mtn Warfare/Pathfinder/Air Assault slots that nobody wanted. They just wanted the HALO or SOTIC slots so the chalk board was totally lopsided

Good info Harv!

The whole MG idea is good but the "all in one" badge is stupid as hell.  They should have done an MOS specific badge for each MOS that has an MG course.  Let the cannon cockers have their cannon and the infantry have their rifle etc. but don't try to shove them all into one ugly badge.

when the hell did the sniper/sapper tab get approved for wear

BTW, I survived incompetent management.  Do I get anything other than retirement?

Laughs in DD214. Just go all out. Expert Master Gunner badge and Combat Gunner Badge.

Jesus the army is starting to look like third world dictators in their uniforms.  The Marines aren't too far behind.

Another fat MI broad. I’m extremely not surprised. Might as well just tape a ranger tab to her shoulder too.

That badge looks like shit

When everyone gets a participation trophy they eventually become irrelevant and diminish those that actually put in the work.

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The sapper tab was approved back in 2004 but was retroactive for anyone completing the course prior to that date http://www.myguidon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=7032

In before the US .mil starts awarding people the rank of King of Scotland.

Where's the trigger on the sword?

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I think some American got an island off the coast already Attached File

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Can't forget your flair!

lol gay.

You may as well have stayed out of it... not reading all of that shit

I prefer a bomber jacket Attached File

By all means don"t

You wouldn't want to learn anything about a thread you clicked on and then posted in.....That's the GD I know...

Starting to look like NORK generals.

In the Navy, unless it's actual full-dress uniform (which you'd never wear outside a gala event in D.C. anyway) you're authorized to wear your top 3 ribbons and that's it.

At least that's how it was circa 2008.

Shit was awesome.

Getting there Attached File

These 3 Attached File

Looks like there are a few pics of generals - some of them do not have a COB.

I did not serve in Military so I do not know - seems odd you make it general w/o and combat experience - can someone chime in on that?  Im very curious.

10 toughest days in the Army, HOOAH

Oh.  I didn't know that.

I just thought the Navy was full of a bunch of people who didn't earn very many awards.

I want to know when the Army will issue a ribbon for drawing a certain number of dicks on captured enemy structures and equipment.  

I didn’t... the rest of the thread was a good read tho

Oh, You mean all the
LOL Army
Get more Flair
LOL gay and LOL Flair comments...

yes, It's a great thread....

Lol.