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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:30:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Compliance is Freedom. Freedom is slavery. |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:32:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Stevie Wonder saw this coming.
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:33:05 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So RB got a bunch of retired senior ATF agents to look at the trigger and they all agreed that this is not a MG. But the ATF disagrees. What a joke. There was hearsay a few months ago that Leadership (what a joke of a term in this context) and Technical were fighting over it. Leadership obviously wanting some way to define it as a machinegun, Technical telling them tough shit it doesn't work. ........ Oh..... oh my.... Wouldn't it be hilarious if the whole bumpstock shitstorm created a legal situation which ended up protecting the objectively better FRT? |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:34:04 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Freedom is slavery. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Compliance is Freedom. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength. |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:35:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: [Snip] Oh..... oh my.... Wouldn't it be hilarious if the whole bumpstock shitstorm created a legal situation which ended up protecting the objectively better FRT? How so? Care to explain? |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:36:06 PM EDT
[#6]
Does this means they won't be selling them cash and carry at the National Rifle Association's 2021 Annual Meetings and Exhibits?
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:36:13 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Akins is a bad example in my opinion. He didn’t get it approved but told people he had done so. It should be legal obviously. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Akins/Bowers, for one.  Quoted: My Akins accelerator had you pull the trigger each time, but was still a machinegun per the ATF. Akins is a bad example in my opinion. He didn’t get it approved but told people he had done so. It should be legal obviously. Correct me if I am wrong. But didn’t Adkins get approved with no spring in the stock. Then shipped em with a spring in the stock later on. Seems like I caught wind of that years ago somewhere |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:46:24 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How so? Care to explain? The bumpstock redefinition happened a few years ago, and lawsuits were immediately launched. Unfortunately stays were not granted so the bumpstock industry was wiped out, but recently those lawsuits have started to bear fruit. The lawsuits already being well along in the pipeline means we don't have to wait years for the initial challenges to crawl through the system. And almost all of the technical accusations against a bumpstock also apply to the FRT. |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:50:37 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: LOL I have Pre-May stamps, belt fed, full auto, ... I don't feel any sting other than the pitiful ramblings of do-ey do good-er's that say "told ya so!" LOL It's sad that folks work harder than necessary to stay extra good and extra "legal". Actually it's not sad, it's pathetic that American men do that. Bullshit. Why do you have stamps? You paid $200 back when it was a lot of money to be super goodie good legal when a DIAS in shotgun news was $15. You're just as law abiding as anyone here. 
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:51:20 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's cool the AFT is down with making policy after the fact and reclassifying items without legislation. Asking for a friend. If I take a screwdriver and stick it in my ass, is it still a screwdriver or reclassified as a pleasure toy? What if I drive it through a person's chest, is it a assault weapon after the fact or was it before? No end in site. |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:51:36 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is ARFCOM. We don't give a fuck about 400 so bucks. Freedom is the currency we trade in. I don't believe you have the balls to own illegal machine guns. |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:54:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, that is what freedom is alright, live around rocks, scurrying around, talking in hushed tones, trying to enjoy a ever fleeting number of "approved thing" by the powers that be. Machine guns, suppressors, short barreled firearms, "Destructive devices" etc have all be in common use since before the founding, but the courts come to the outcome they want, and rationalize it anyway they want. Freedom does not require permission, and if your freedom is going to be granted by requesting it from those who have power over you, I think you ought to read how that always turns out. More bravado from people who wouldn't dare own an illegal machine gun. |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:55:55 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So RB got a bunch of retired senior ATF agents to look at the trigger and they all agreed that this is not a MG. But the ATF disagrees. What a joke. not just any retired agents...agents the ATF has recently paid to determine if something is or is not a machine gun. So these are the feds own experts saying "not a machine gun" |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:56:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More bravado from people who wouldn't dare own an illegal machine gun.  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:56:33 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: rare breed's full complaint HERE I find interesting, and now understand, that sharing his law office with this biz presents a problem with confiscation of any computers or papers on his office. |
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:58:33 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They'll loose imo. 
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Posted: 8/12/2021 11:59:21 PM EDT
[#17]
With bumpstocks I thought owners were required to destroy them. I didn't think the ATF went door to door but I could be wrong. My guess is some people comply and some people don't but not much comes from it. You just won't see them at the range.
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:00:55 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, they knew this was coming. I read the whole thing. That was not thrown together half assed, IMHO. I find interesting, and now understand, that sharing his law office with this biz presents a problem with confiscation of any computers or papers on his office. I wouldn't even be at all surprised if this was an anti-AFT honeypot. ETA: wasn't this company discovered to be right next to some large gun company some time back? Yeah, I think this was built *specifically* for the legal fight. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:07:04 AM EDT
[#19]
never got one but i got a e mail from them 3 hrs ago that they have 150 in stock lol
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:09:37 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't even be at all surprised if this was an anti-AFT honeypot. ETA: wasn't this company discovered to be right next to some large gun company some time back? Yeah, I think this was built *specifically* for the legal fight. I wouldn't be surprised if this was some kind of undercover government operation to snare "fringe" gun owners who like to walk the line right up to the very limits of what's legal (which is becoming more and more gun owners as more and more laws are passed). |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:11:12 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More bravado from people who wouldn't dare own an illegal machine gun. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah, that is what freedom is alright, live around rocks, scurrying around, talking in hushed tones, trying to enjoy a ever fleeting number of "approved thing" by the powers that be. Machine guns, suppressors, short barreled firearms, "Destructive devices" etc have all be in common use since before the founding, but the courts come to the outcome they want, and rationalize it anyway they want. Freedom does not require permission, and if your freedom is going to be granted by requesting it from those who have power over you, I think you ought to read how that always turns out. More bravado from people who wouldn't dare own an illegal machine gun. This is not a time to be divisive, nor to discourage people taking whichever action they find conscionable. This is however a good time for you to depart this thread if you intend to be divisive. Lest you be departed from it. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:11:58 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, they knew this was coming. I read the whole thing. That was not thrown together half assed, IMHO. I find interesting, and now understand, that sharing his law office with this biz presents a problem with confiscation of any computers or papers on his office. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: rare breed's full complaint HERE I find interesting, and now understand, that sharing his law office with this biz presents a problem with confiscation of any computers or papers on his office. Yeah that’s what I thought, genius attorney client privilege move. Reading the brief, they knew this was going to happen sooner or later and set this up. Continuing to spend the money for more former atf agents to sign off AFTER production lol. Wish them luck, they definitely get an A for effort. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:12:26 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't be surprised if this was some kind of undercover government operation to snare "fringe" gun owners who like to walk the line right up to the very limits of what's legal (which is becoming more and more gun owners as more and more laws are passed). If so it is going to make the Fast and Furious backfire look like everything going smoothly. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:15:21 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just this manufacturer, or does it apply to all binary triggers? Just this one. I can see F-Troop's argument, but looking at how the FRT functions it seems pretty solidly on the legal side (but we all know that doesn't matter these days). |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:15:34 AM EDT
[#25]
So if they wind up winning the classification could they go after people that bought and resold them also for transferring them?
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:16:19 AM EDT
[#26]
If these shirtbirds are selling these items an unregulated part like a spoon, in which they should, why would they have a list of purchasers and futher more hand it over to take down all thier customers?
That's a fu to everyone of thier fan boys. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:16:19 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is not a time to be divisive, nor to discourage people taking whichever action they find conscionable. This is however a good time for you to depart this thread if you intend to be divisive. Lest you be departed from it. Quote HistoryQuoted: This is not a time to be divisive, nor to discourage people taking whichever action they find conscionable. This is however a good time for you to depart this thread if you intend to be divisive. Lest you be departed from it. Or “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.” ? Samuel Adams |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:16:46 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wouldn't even be at all surprised if this was an anti-AFT honeypot. ETA: wasn't this company discovered to be right next to some large gun company some time back? Yeah, I think this was built *specifically* for the legal fight. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yeah, they knew this was coming. I read the whole thing. That was not thrown together half assed, IMHO. I find interesting, and now understand, that sharing his law office with this biz presents a problem with confiscation of any computers or papers on his office. I wouldn't even be at all surprised if this was an anti-AFT honeypot. ETA: wasn't this company discovered to be right next to some large gun company some time back? Yeah, I think this was built *specifically* for the legal fight. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:17:17 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: More bravado from people who wouldn't dare own an illegal machine gun. No machine gun is illegal |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:18:17 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This is not a time to be divisive, nor to discourage people taking whichever action they find conscionable. This is however a good time for you to depart this thread if you intend to be divisive. Lest you be departed from it. Tell that to the folks who immediately I was some kind of coward for not breaking the law. You want to talk about being divisive? Then don't ignore them. I'm here to say this letter from the ATF sucks, but also that it was very, very predictable. If Rare Breed prevails in court, I'll buy one for every lower I have. But prior to such a ruling, I wouldn't risk it. I'm not "government job" rich so eight or twelve hundred dollars is a lot of money to me. But don't go accusing ME of being divisive when I get dog piled for pointing out the hypocrisy of other members accusing me of somehow being a coward for not being a felon.  |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:18:23 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So if they wind up winning the classification could they go after people that bought and resold them also for transferring them? |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:19:59 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No machine gun is illegal Is that what your defense attorney will argue in court? Good luck. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:39:38 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Compliance is Freedom. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If some of you are going to chance your life/freedom with something that is declared illegal to own and the company has the sale record list when you bought the now contraband item your better off just buying an M16 lower parts kit instead and doing what a SOT would do with it. Same with the fuel filter baffle kits and Wish Glock auto sears they are all contraband by themselves that will lead directly to a search warrant be smarter than your enemy. Compliance is Freedom. No, picking your battles is freedom. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:41:22 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If these shirtbirds are selling these items an unregulated part like a spoon, in which they should, why would they have a list of purchasers and futher more hand it over to take down all thier customers? That's a fu to everyone of thier fan boys. Considering they went to gunshows so people could pay cash off the record maybe you should refrain from assuming they are morons? |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:43:08 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Tell that to the folks who immediately I was some kind of coward for not breaking the law. You want to talk about being divisive? Then don't ignore them. I'm here to say this letter from the ATF sucks, but also that it was very, very predictable. If Rare Breed prevails in court, I'll buy one for every lower I have. But prior to such a ruling, I wouldn't risk it. I'm not "government job" rich so eight or twelve hundred dollars is a lot of money to me. But don't go accusing ME of being divisive when I get dog piled for pointing out the hypocrisy of other members accusing me of somehow being a coward for not being a felon. You just don't get it do you? They will keep chipping away at our rights till nothing is left and you are legitimizing them by obeying/acknowledging that you are scared of them and playing their game of Simon says despite their long history of screwing over legal gun owners anyways along with the sham thieves in office. It would be best for your own sake to get out of the way when things get worse in the coming months. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:53:16 AM EDT
[#36]
Well the ATF letter was delivered July 26th with a 5 day deadline and rare breed seems to still be selling them.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 12:59:16 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well the ATF letter was delivered July 26th with a 5 day deadline and rare breed seems to still be selling them. 
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Posted: 8/13/2021 1:04:43 AM EDT
[#38]
FATF
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Posted: 8/13/2021 1:13:34 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Correct me if I am wrong. But didn’t Adkins get approved with no spring in the stock. Then shipped em with a spring in the stock later on. Seems like I caught wind of that years ago somewhere Bill Akins submitted the original "Akins Accelerator" prototype to the ATF with a spring based recoil system utilizing an SKS as the host gun. The ATF concluded that while the prototype broke/failed during testing based off the design it did not fire more than one shot per function of the trigger. The Akins group took this response, redesigned the stock to function with a 10/22, developed laminated wood stock 10/22 prototypes they sent to beta testers and once that proved successful then partnered with Tom Bowers to mass produce a cheaper polymer version. To the best of my knowledge the Akins/Bowers group never sent a final polymer 10/22 Akins Accelerator stock version to the ATF for classification and relied upon the original letter ruling on the prototype SKS version. Once the 10/22 Akins Accelerator became a commercial success the ATF reclassified "the spring" as a machinegun and sent demand letters to all known owners to surrender the spring but let them keep the stock as a primitive springless "bump-stock". Eventually they changed their mind again after the success of the slidefire and subsequent LVN shooting and the springless stocks were now also contraband machineguns. You can read about it here as Bill Akins sued the ATF and lost. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca11/08-15640/200815640-2011-02-28.html |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 1:46:25 AM EDT
[#40]
When the time comes where these might be needed the 3D printer goes BrrrrrrrrBrrrrrrrrr.
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Posted: 8/13/2021 1:57:20 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bill Akins submitted the original "Akins Accelerator" prototype to the ATF with a spring based recoil system utilizing an SKS as the host gun. The ATF concluded that while the prototype broke/failed during testing based off the design it did not fire more than one shot per function of the trigger. The Akins group took this response, redesigned the stock to function with a 10/22, developed laminated wood stock 10/22 prototypes they sent to beta testers and once that proved successful then partnered with Tom Bowers to mass produce a cheaper polymer version. To the best of my knowledge the Akins/Bowers group never sent a final polymer 10/22 Akins Accelerator stock version to the ATF for classification and relied upon the original letter ruling on the prototype SKS version. Once the 10/22 Akins Accelerator became a commercial success the ATF reclassified "the spring" as a machinegun and sent demand letters to all known owners to surrender the spring but let them keep the stock as a primitive springless "bump-stock". Eventually they changed their mind again after the success of the slidefire and subsequent LVN shooting and the springless stocks were now also contraband machineguns. You can read about it here as Bill Akins sued the ATF and lost. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca11/08-15640/200815640-2011-02-28.html Akins got fucked on that deal. Fuck courts too. None of the shit they say is illegal is actually unlawful |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 2:06:49 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Bill Akins submitted the original "Akins Accelerator" prototype to the ATF with a spring based recoil system utilizing an SKS as the host gun. The ATF concluded that while the prototype broke/failed during testing based off the design it did not fire more than one shot per function of the trigger. The Akins group took this response, redesigned the stock to function with a 10/22, developed laminated wood stock 10/22 prototypes they sent to beta testers and once that proved successful then partnered with Tom Bowers to mass produce a cheaper polymer version. To the best of my knowledge the Akins/Bowers group never sent a final polymer 10/22 Akins Accelerator stock version to the ATF for classification and relied upon the original letter ruling on the prototype SKS version. Once the 10/22 Akins Accelerator became a commercial success the ATF reclassified "the spring" as a machinegun and sent demand letters to all known owners to surrender the spring but let them keep the stock as a primitive springless "bump-stock". Eventually they changed their mind again after the success of the slidefire and subsequent LVN shooting and the springless stocks were now also contraband machineguns. You can read about it here as Bill Akins sued the ATF and lost. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca11/08-15640/200815640-2011-02-28.html Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Correct me if I am wrong. But didn’t Adkins get approved with no spring in the stock. Then shipped em with a spring in the stock later on. Seems like I caught wind of that years ago somewhere Bill Akins submitted the original "Akins Accelerator" prototype to the ATF with a spring based recoil system utilizing an SKS as the host gun. The ATF concluded that while the prototype broke/failed during testing based off the design it did not fire more than one shot per function of the trigger. The Akins group took this response, redesigned the stock to function with a 10/22, developed laminated wood stock 10/22 prototypes they sent to beta testers and once that proved successful then partnered with Tom Bowers to mass produce a cheaper polymer version. To the best of my knowledge the Akins/Bowers group never sent a final polymer 10/22 Akins Accelerator stock version to the ATF for classification and relied upon the original letter ruling on the prototype SKS version. Once the 10/22 Akins Accelerator became a commercial success the ATF reclassified "the spring" as a machinegun and sent demand letters to all known owners to surrender the spring but let them keep the stock as a primitive springless "bump-stock". Eventually they changed their mind again after the success of the slidefire and subsequent LVN shooting and the springless stocks were now also contraband machineguns. You can read about it here as Bill Akins sued the ATF and lost. https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca11/08-15640/200815640-2011-02-28.html You're one of the few people who seems to know what actually happened. I met Akins, and shot his early production models. Nice guy, but he jumped before really paying attention to what he was doing. Designing a full-auto simulator is far easier than learning how to stay out of ATF's sights. He just didn't realize how to read legalese...or maybe he didn't care to. Either way the result was that he dug himself the hole by not getting approval in the first place. Their original letter was confusingly written, and he apparently never thought to get clarification on what it was saying, he just assumed what he wanted and ran with it. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 2:09:12 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No, picking your battles is freedom. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: If some of you are going to chance your life/freedom with something that is declared illegal to own and the company has the sale record list when you bought the now contraband item your better off just buying an M16 lower parts kit instead and doing what a SOT would do with it. Same with the fuel filter baffle kits and Wish Glock auto sears they are all contraband by themselves that will lead directly to a search warrant be smarter than your enemy. Compliance is Freedom. No, picking your battles is freedom. No. Freedom is not having to fight battles with a government you pay taxes to unless you actually hurt people or break stuff that doesn't belong to you. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 2:19:26 AM EDT
[#44]
Didn't read the thread, and perhaps the FPC chimed in, but my ideas (with the caveat that some or all have been tried):
A three pronged approach is necessary 1) the edge that creates new product 2) more, aggressive development of case law at the appellate level. Tier one dropping in and making it so that lib judges that even vaguely believe in rule of law will bend (even if just a little bit) 3) sympathetic atf management at the top few levels This seems like a wishlist at this point, perhaps I am uninformed, but that would seize significant power |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 2:21:30 AM EDT
[#45]
I'll bet these get dropped, cash only, for a thousand dollars each at the upcoming weekend gun shows.
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Posted: 8/13/2021 2:41:58 AM EDT
[#46]
Our_members who bragged about having them, and encouraged people to buy them will be the first to turn them, right?
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Posted: 8/13/2021 5:16:24 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah, they knew this was coming. I read the whole thing. That was not thrown together half assed, IMHO. I find interesting, and now understand, that sharing his law office with this biz presents a problem with confiscation of any computers or papers on his office. It doesn’t present a problem at all. In the event documents are seized that may contain privileged communications the court will appoint an independent third party to review them and make a determination. Anything determined to be privileged will be excluded from the documents eventually turned over to the feds. Happens all the time. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 5:39:40 AM EDT
[#48]
I was going to buy one but as you guessed. Sold out. Got on the wait list just in case they are still making them.
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Posted: 8/13/2021 5:48:34 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just this manufacturer, or does it apply to all binary triggers? Considering this isn't a binary... The question makes no sense. |
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Posted: 8/13/2021 5:52:29 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No. But I'm still happy I won't be hassled like the people who bought the FRT's. They looked like a ton of fun, and the last thing I need is for the government to take away yet another thing I enjoyed (like the good old days of drones circa 2015). So yeah. I'm happy as fuck I didn't drop hundreds of dollars on something that was so obviously going to be banned. Magazine fed semiautos have been legally bought and sold in the US ever since they were invented over a hundred years ago, so your comparison doesn't hold water. They are in "common use". The FRT is not. The comparison makes perfect sense. Suppressors were legal, until they weren't. Full auto was legal, until it wasn't. Don't be stupid. Gun laws don't get less restrictive. |
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