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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:34:01 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really believe that shit ? Just by looking at the number of personnel used in the operation you can see it was never the goal. Russia doesn’t give a shit about western Ukraine. Nobody does. There is literally nothing of interest there. I agree. If putin wanted to take ukraine, he could. you dont take a country with what 200k troops? Its been said before, I dont think his goal was take all of ukraine. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:34:38 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really believe that shit ? Just by looking at the number of personnel used in the operation you can see it was never the goal. Russia doesn’t give a shit about western Ukraine. Nobody does. There is literally nothing of interest there. My guess as to their actual war goals was. #1 land bridge to Crimea (They have this now) #2 Try to capture as much former military infrastructure in the east/south as the can (i.e. Kharkiv, Odessa, mikolayev, etc) #3 Capture resource operations in the east (mines etc) So, they kinda have achieved #1, not so much #2, and sorta #3. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:34:39 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am willing to bet most of us don’t support welfare. Was that a tongue-in-cheek statement? Who was the last candidate in either party who promised to end the eternal free ride? The only thing we debate is whose ox gets gored first. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:35:30 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really believe that shit ? Just by looking at the number of personnel used in the operation you can see it was never the goal. Russia doesn’t give a shit about western Ukraine. Nobody does. There is literally nothing of interest there. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Whether you believe it or not it's true. Putin invaded Ukraine with the intent to subjugate and conquer the entire country in a few days and humiliate the west. Not just the eastern parts and no, Kyiv was not a feint. He wanted the entire country and to drive Zelenskyy out of the capital. Nobody expected Ukraine to offer more than a few days or weeks of resistance and Russian propagandists publicly declared Ukraine would be annihilated. In Putin's Essay "On the historical unity of Ukraine and Russia" he claimed Ukraine belonged to Russia. That's Putin himself talking, not me. Russia also publicly declared on February 26th, 2022 that they had defeated Ukraine and "Ukraine had returned to Russia". It was soon withdrawn when Russia began to flee Kyiv after losing the battle. Nato is stronger and now has 2 more nations, including one former Russian imperial colony, and Ukraine is stronger. Ukraine is the underdog and not on the level of Russia. They're a much smaller nation with a much weaker military. For people to say "Oh, they got billions yet they can't push Russia out, they're losing" is ignorant because it's the lightweight boxer going against the heavyweight boxer and winning. The puppet government Russia intended to setup with it's JBT FSB goons isn't happening. Odesa? Still Ukrainian. Kherson? Liberated. Kharkiv? Still Ukrainian. Kyiv? Still Ukrainian. Bucha? Even more Ukrainian after the horrors VDV soldiers did to the people there. Izium? Free. Kupyansk? Free. Balakliya? Free. Urozhaine? Recently free. Robytne? Freedom, 50% loaded. The victory pathways for Ukraine are much larger whereas the pathways to victory for Russia are much narrower. Russia is seen as the more powerful country yet when faced with unified Ukrainian resistance fled the capital. Ukrainian victory is retaining most of their country and surviving as a nation. A Russian victory is taking Kyiv and accomplishing the goals they set out to on 2-24-22. Russia was closest to those goals in the weeks around 2-24. If Ukraine succeeds in breaking the land bridge from Crimea to the mainland-and I believe they will-Russia will have traded 250k men, another countless hundreds of thousands wounded, trillions in lost assets and military hardware, and political and economic isolation for a few clumps of land. That is a victory for Ukraine and a defeat for Russia. Putin has a personal desire to own Kyiv because of the history of the Rus and Kyivan rus and a need to re-write it. He also can't claim to be a Tsar without owning Ukraine. As the saying goes: Russia with Ukraine is an empire Russia without Ukraine is just a country You really believe that shit ? Just by looking at the number of personnel used in the operation you can see it was never the goal. Russia doesn’t give a shit about western Ukraine. Nobody does. There is literally nothing of interest there. He went in to decapitate the western friendly government and install a Russian friendly government. There was certainly no capacity to subjugate the entire country. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:35:59 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Russia agreed to recognize Ukraine's borders, planning a war of conquest all along. Russia never keeps its word. No matter what they agree to they will not honor it. Peace is but an interlude. Russia sees peace as a tool to get suckers to do nothing while they get ready for the next war. You realize Germany and France have admitted that signing Minsk 2 was never meant to respect it, but just to gain time and arm Ukraine ? |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:36:03 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really believe that shit ? Just by looking at the number of personnel used in the operation you can see it was never the goal. Russia doesn't give a shit about western Ukraine. Nobody does. There is literally nothing of interest there. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:37:49 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Was that a tongue-in-cheek statement? Who was the last candidate in either party who promised to end the eternal free ride? The only thing we debate is whose ox gets gored first. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I am willing to bet most of us don’t support welfare. Was that a tongue-in-cheek statement? Who was the last candidate in either party who promised to end the eternal free ride? The only thing we debate is whose ox gets gored first. You brought it up as if we support welfare so we shouldn’t mind paying for Ukrainian. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:37:52 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everything sent so far was already paid for. The aid "money" is the replacement costs for things which means American jobs.  " />
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:38:10 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You really believe that shit ? Just by looking at the number of personnel used in the operation you can see it was never the goal. Russia doesn’t give a shit about western Ukraine. Nobody does. There is literally nothing of interest there. Absolutely. What did the Russian victory Declaration state? “Oh we took eastern Ukraine we are done now”. It said “Ukraine has returned to Russia”. That’s verbatim from the release. Not the east. Not the west. Russia wanted all of Ukraine and the people in it, from Odesa to Kharkiv to Lviv. The fsb planned the operation. They went with what their spies told them-nobody would fight for the “Kyiv regime”. It’s not our fault Russia planned a war so shortsightedly and incompetently it makes my first ftx as a private look like a master display of chess. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:38:59 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It's not WWII. We don't have the manufacturing base we once had. All outsourced. Even then, when uncle sugar really needs things he just writes a check and says make it happen. The beauty of Capitalism is that capacity will be created if the economics are there. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:42:27 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It absolutely was the goal. FVP just miscalculated when he thought the Ukrainian gov would immediately fold, there would be little to no civilian response, and there would be no outside help. Horseshit. You don’t take a county with a 3rd of the defenders forces. Did they want to decapitate the current govt ? For sure. They never wanted to take the whole country. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:42:51 AM EDT
[#12]
If its just the USA footing the bill and the rest of the EU sitting on their fat asses (i.e. germany and france) then UKEbois are in for a fucking rude awakening.
This was discussed so many times in the past, its rather sickening to repeat it. EU has been skirting their own laws/sanctions to keep their profits up with RUS biz "partners". But RUS is severely wounded throughout all if this. Their war machine has not proven nearly effective as they had hoped. All bets are off at this point... |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:43:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ukraine is not getting the latest technology on the battlefield. Most of what they are getting is cold war stuff, not even in active inventory. Uh, Javs, NASAMs, etc... Reasonably modern... |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:44:01 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I worked with them post 2014. They are extremely difficult to work with, freedom isn’t a word I would associate with them. Everything needs layers of bureaucratic approval. We own bureaucracy, so is that your definition now? I don't blame them for being a good bit paranoid while a foreign invader is in their country trying to commit genocide for the 4th time. You were there and didn't sense that? Bureaucracy is a scourge throughout history. A necessity but easily abused and sometimes mindlessly brutal in the hands of tyrants. Still, the level of bureaucracy is not the definition of freedom unless you are an anarchist. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:45:21 AM EDT
[#15]
Shit....send them a few more billions of our broke ass tax dollars...meanwhile fuck our own nation...hear me HI?
THAT will fix things and a few more dead orks. Am I rite Ukebros? |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:45:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: <a href="<a href="http://i.imgur.com/bz9uacD.png" >[url]http://i.imgur.com/bz9uacD.png">http://i.imgur.com/bz9uacD.png">[url=https://imgur.com/bz9uacD]http://i.imgur.com/bz9uacD.png  |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:48:35 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryA picture is worth a thousand words. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:49:05 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Horseshit. You don't take a county with a 3rd of the defenders forces. Did they want to decapitate the current govt ? For sure. They never wanted to take the whole country. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:49:42 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Horseshit. You don’t take a county with a 3rd of the defenders forces. Did they want to decapitate the current govt ? For sure. They never wanted to take the whole country. Why do Russians themselves dispute what you are saying? It’s not our fault the Russians were absolutely incompetent and thought they could do it. Why did they have so many SOBR dudes with them and entire convoys of them getting massacred? |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:49:44 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A picture is worth a thousand words. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:49:52 AM EDT
[#21]
I don't know if Ukraine can win or not. No one outside of top officials knows the real casualty numbers. For Ukraine giving up their/left behind nukes how much does the USA owe in terms of support or protection while our county is being ruined by the potato and the rest of the bunch?
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:50:04 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Everything sent so far was already paid for. The aid "money" is the replacement costs for things which means American jobs. http://i.imgur.com/bz9uacD.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/bz9uacD.png He is pretending that we aren’t paying their government salaries and expenses as well as pensions, some going back to the USSR days. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:50:41 AM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Uh, Javs, NASAMs, etc... Reasonably modern... And boat loads of cash but hey they're just getting scraps they need MOAR ! |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:50:42 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Horseshit. You don't take a county with a 3rd of the defenders forces. Did they want to decapitate the current govt ? For sure. They never wanted to take the whole country. If Russia just locked down the front where it currently is, and Ukraine doesn't receive deep strike munitions, I think Russia might settle and call this a win. They need to counter the WBIED drones somehow, so maybe a push on Odessa but as long as they can hang on to the coast they can meet their minimum objectives. If they can't they are fucked. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:51:54 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is that why you've posted it a thousand times? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: A picture is worth a thousand words. And yet you still don't seem to understand what the graph shows. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:52:37 AM EDT
[#26]
No shit.
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:54:30 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We own bureaucracy, so is that your definition now? I don't blame them for being a good bit paranoid while a foreign invader is in their country trying to commit genocide for the 4th time. You were there and didn't sense that? Bureaucracy is a scourge throughout history. A necessity but easily abused and sometimes mindlessly brutal in the hands of tyrants. Still, the level of bureaucracy is not the definition of freedom unless you are an anarchist. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I worked with them post 2014. They are extremely difficult to work with, freedom isn’t a word I would associate with them. Everything needs layers of bureaucratic approval. We own bureaucracy, so is that your definition now? I don't blame them for being a good bit paranoid while a foreign invader is in their country trying to commit genocide for the 4th time. You were there and didn't sense that? Bureaucracy is a scourge throughout history. A necessity but easily abused and sometimes mindlessly brutal in the hands of tyrants. Still, the level of bureaucracy is not the definition of freedom unless you are an anarchist. You don’t have a clue if you think our bureaucracy is worse than a former Soviet republics! As to the rest of the freedom definition, they don’t have freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms, etc. they were incredibly corrupt. Corruption is directly due to government oppression. Corruption is the opposite of freedom. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:54:44 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Absolutely. What did the Russian victory Declaration state? “Oh we took eastern Ukraine we are done now”. It said “Ukraine has returned to Russia”. That’s verbatim from the release. Not the east. Not the west. Russia wanted all of Ukraine and the people in it, from Odesa to Kharkiv to Lviv. The fsb planned the operation. They went with what their spies told them-nobody would fight for the “Kyiv regime”. It’s not our fault Russia planned a war so shortsightedly and incompetently it makes my first ftx as a private look like a master display of chess. Do you think the Ukrainian people would be better off if a ceasefire was declared and was able to hold for a year while negotiations were underway? Or, would continued fighting for the next year somehow improve their lives? |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:55:45 AM EDT
[#29]
Were people actually brainwashed to believe Ukraine could win against Russia??? I can't wrap my head around the blindness that would have to exist to be that naive.
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:57:30 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He is pretending that we aren’t paying their government salaries and expenses as well as pensions, some going back to the USSR days. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Everything sent so far was already paid for. The aid "money" is the replacement costs for things which means American jobs. http://i.imgur.com/bz9uacD.png" target="_blank">http://i.imgur.com/bz9uacD.png He is pretending that we aren’t paying their government salaries and expenses as well as pensions, some going back to the USSR days. Exactly, the graph of what we have sent VS other countries seems to really trigger Uke bros. "We only sent old weapons we would have had to pay to destroy" "We have not sent Ukraine any money" "Show the GDP graph, the US is not paying their share to Ukraine" |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 9:57:45 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you think the Ukrainian people would be better off if a ceasefire was declared and was able to hold for a year while negotiations were underway? Or, would continued fighting for the next year somehow improve their lives? A ceasefire where Russia uses it to reorganize and consolidate more? They are fighting so they survive and can be free, not sent to filtration camps, torture chambers, and “adopted” by a Russian family in Siberia |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:00:18 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: He is pretending that we aren't paying their government salaries and expenses as well as pensions, some going back to the USSR days. Go on projecting tho. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:00:56 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You realize Germany and France have admitted that signing Minsk 2 was never meant to respect it, but just to gain time and arm Ukraine ? That was signed in 2014. The Budapest Memorandum was signed in 1994. Russian agreed to drop all territorial claims and pledge to respect Ukraine's sovereignty. Historically, no one should be surprised Russia broke the agreement. Russia is the one who is committing genocide, and trying to wipe their culture and freedom off the map. What you are saying is meaningless. France and Germany are famous for slow-leaking everyone, including the EU and NATO. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:01:46 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A ceasefire where Russia uses it to reorganize and consolidate more? They are fighting so they survive and can be free, not sent to filtration camps, torture chambers, and “adopted” by a Russian family in Siberia I didn't see the part in his question about Russia using it to reorganize and consolidate more |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:04:25 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Everything sent so far was already paid for. The aid "money" is the replacement costs for things which means American jobs. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes I can actually feel how great of a investment it is everytime I buy groceries or get gas. Every war, proxy war or intervention America just gets better. Everything sent so far was already paid for. The aid "money" is the replacement costs for things which means American jobs.  Among other things, we're paying their government pensions. We're POURING money into the corrupt shit hole. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:04:35 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You brought it up as if we support welfare so we shouldn’t mind paying for Ukrainian. You are saying they don't have freedom and should not exist. Should not the same reasoning apply to you? |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:05:29 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You are saying they don't have freedom and should not exist. Should not the same reasoning apply to you? Now this is some Olympic level mental gymnastics FFS |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:08:17 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ukraine is winning right now. The ruble is collapsing, the offensive is gaining steam, and sketti is posting pro-Russian doom porn. I’m sorry, “just asking questions”. Plus we keep getting clues that the resistance in Russia is growing and getting more confident. Russia is so stretched right now that they can't manage Ukraine and an internal fight. You have to start thinking about the collapse of the Russian government and whether or not that is actually a good thing. Think about getting rid of Saddam who was Iran's greatest enemy, for example, and what has changed since then. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:12:32 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryAre you saying other countries should spend more than their GDP to match us dollar for dollar? Just about all those countries together do not match our GDP. Many of them do not have the industrial base or even the technology to match the USA. In short, the chart needs context to have meaning. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:14:16 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Were people actually brainwashed to believe Ukraine could win against Russia??? I can't wrap my head around the blindness that would have to exist to be that naive. That’s why Ukraine is not only holding on, they are pushing Russia back, right? Russia holds less territory now than they did a year ago. @alnen123 |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:15:02 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wait, people actually believed the "Ukraine gonna win it!" propaganda? Hahahahahabababababababahbahahahaha |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:16:06 AM EDT
[#42]
I saved this meme from when the shit kicked off way back when. I'm glad it turned out to be accurate.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:17:16 AM EDT
[#43]
Did the ratings get turned off like YouTube dislikes?
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:18:28 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I saved this meme from when the shit kicked off way back when. I'm glad it turned out to be accurate. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/67160/1647390019020_jpg-2923678.JPG Your meme is not even close to being True and you should feel bad. Russians nearly tied the Olympic record for battlefield rout which was set last October in Kharkiv by the Russian 1st guards tank army.
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:18:33 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you saying other countries should spend more than their GDP to match us dollar for dollar? Just about all those countries together do not match our GDP. Many of them do not have the industrial base or even the technology to match the USA. In short, the chart needs context to have meaning. Quote HistoryQuoted: Are you saying other countries should spend more than their GDP to match us dollar for dollar? Just about all those countries together do not match our GDP. Many of them do not have the industrial base or even the technology to match the USA. In short, the chart needs context to have meaning. I am saying the US has spent a disproportionate amount on the war in Europe compared to the Europeans who live there. You don't think showing how much, and what type of aid each country has sent gives the data context? Do you want a graph displaying each country's good intentions instead of the actual dollar amounts? |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:19:48 AM EDT
[#46]
So the first page on this post was mostly informational and good open opinions. Then the normal people 5 people showed up and instigated all this bickering and arguing. Which happens in every thread on Ukraine.
At least in the near future it won’t be allowed to happen anyone. First you allow people closest to the problem fix it and if that fails you go to the top. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:22:01 AM EDT
[#47]
Micro-Brains are easily susceptible to Russian propoganda. The Micro-Penii will happily spread it.
Not saying that applies to anyone in particular on this site. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:22:49 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: No one seriously believes this to be true. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Ukraine is winning right now. No one seriously believes this to be true. You can't be serious. Most people believe it to be true. |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:25:34 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s why Ukraine is not only holding on, they are pushing Russia back, right? Russia holds less territory now than they did a year ago. @alnen123 Ukraine's big counteroffensive has netted them less than 100 square miles. It's like Gary Coleman throwing little haymakers as Mike Tyson covers up so as not to get a bruise. The US can help Gary tie up Tyson as much as possible, but it's obvious to all that Tyson isn't dropping the big bombs yet, because he doesn't have to. This is a war of milking. Young men die so that the corrupt get rich, and so that both sides drum up more support from their respective and perspective allies. Does anyone deny that if Russia wanted Ukraine wiped off the map tomorrow, that it would be so? |
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Posted: 8/18/2023 10:30:41 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You don’t have a clue if you think our bureaucracy is worse than a former Soviet republics! As to the rest of the freedom definition, they don’t have freedom of speech, freedom to bear arms, etc. they were incredibly corrupt. Corruption is directly due to government oppression. Corruption is the opposite of freedom. LOL Explain the scandals and crimes at the Federal state, and local levels across this country. Even a blind man can see the corrosive effect. You deny what is happening in the USA and redirect attention elsewhere. Our entitlement programs are a red flag of corruption and vote buying. Politicians come into office as nonmillionaires and leave filthy rich and you don't think that is corrupt? My family and I have traveled enough around the world to see corruption everywhere. Ukraine is far from the Worst. Russia is far worse. China is far worse. Rather than call corruption what it is in the USA, we call it politics as usual, the cost of doing business, and lobbying. Look at the charities run by people raking in huge salaries but help no one but themselves. We hold the record for fake charities and shell corporations. |
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