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Posted: 8/13/2023 4:47:59 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Garand has a lot of really weird design features. The receiever is incredibly short, and incredibly complicated. A lot of the parts look like a headache to machine. I don't think the bolt even travels to-and-fro in a perfectly straight line, I think it takes a slight rainbow-trajectory (someone correct me if I'm wrong). just one of many examples of how insanely powerful our industrial might was. That we could not just produce such high quality machined weapons but doing in mass quantities. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 4:50:36 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The past is another country, they do things differently there. The thing I always notice about early repeating firearms is that they are usually insanely complicated, unless they were personally designed by John Moses Browning. Then I remind myself that the people designing these things often didn’t have a lot of other guns to reference. Perfection is achieved when there is nothing more to take away. You're not wrong about that. They also didn't have CAD, with the ability to rapidly develop a design in a week that would have taken months in decades past. "Yes, I can spend another 6 months changing hole locations, wall thicknesses, contoured cuts *slightly* to perfect a design, and all of the parts that interact with those features, and all of the drawings, but this design is ready to go right now. Do you really want to wait?" |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 4:51:00 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: just one of many examples of how insanely powerful our industrial might was. That we could not just produce such high quality machined weapons but doing in mass quantities. Industrial production can be a funny thing. If someone were to set up to make a 100% authentic M1 with no surplus or MiM parts, what would it wind up costing? $5,000? |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 4:56:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Industrial production can be a funny thing. If someone were to set up to make a 100% authentic M1 with no surplus or MiM parts, what would it wind up costing? $5,000? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: just one of many examples of how insanely powerful our industrial might was. That we could not just produce such high quality machined weapons but doing in mass quantities. Industrial production can be a funny thing. If someone were to set up to make a 100% authentic M1 with no surplus or MiM parts, what would it wind up costing? $5,000? 1. The number ordered would be a large factor in sweetening cost. How many were made between say 1936 and 1945 over multiple contracts? 2. Multi axis CNC machines would make short work of 30s era manufacturing techniques that took 10 men on 10 different machines to execute. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 4:57:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Industrial production can be a funny thing. If someone were to set up to make a 100% authentic M1 with no surplus or MiM parts, what would it wind up costing? $5,000? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: just one of many examples of how insanely powerful our industrial might was. That we could not just produce such high quality machined weapons but doing in mass quantities. Industrial production can be a funny thing. If someone were to set up to make a 100% authentic M1 with no surplus or MiM parts, what would it wind up costing? $5,000? I heard something like that. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 4:57:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think my late war the m1 Ammo came in on bandoleers already ready in en bloc clips but that wasnt always the case when we were still shooting up old stocks of 5 round stripper clips of M1903 Springfield ammo. IIRC the M1903s stayed in rifle squads for prehaps the entire war as they were needed for rifle launched grenades. The m7 grenade launcher, and the updated poppet valve gas key lock screw were introduced in 1943. It still meant most were stuck with 1903's though. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 5:05:49 PM EDT
[#7]
Magazines had to be loaded and maintained.
8 round enbloc clips in a bandoleer are ready to drop into the rifle and shoot. Plus they can remain loaded and stored in ammo cans forever. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 5:10:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The past is another country, they do things differently there. The thing I always notice about early repeating firearms is that they are usually insanely complicated, unless they were personally designed by John Moses Browning. Then I remind myself that the people designing these things often didn’t have a lot of other guns to reference. Perfection is achieved when there is nothing more to take away. The Garand doesn't have a whole lot of places to simplify. The op rod spring serves as the magazine spring. The safety spring serves as the clip ejection spring. The OOB safety is world class, and dead simple... Really the only thing you could possibly simplify would be the gas cylinder assembly, but thats not something you can do in 1939 when You're dealing with the military |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 5:12:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Industrial production can be a funny thing. If someone were to set up to make a 100% authentic M1 with no surplus or MiM parts, what would it wind up costing? $5,000? In that neighborhood. The mini-14 is a remarkably similar, scaled down receiver, and it's still a ~$1k rifle. A full scale M1, with the added complexity of the internal feed, all new barrels, stocks, and limited production runs, $5k a pop is probably on the low end. And that's if Ruger is casting all the receivers and can lean on the scale of all the other casting its doing. What I really want to see is a en-bloc fed mini-14. That'd be a fucking awesome rifle; fun and cheap to shoot, handy, 10 round clips fit flush and would be ban state compliant etc. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 5:22:31 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. The number ordered would be a large factor in sweetening cost. How many were made between say 1936 and 1945 over multiple contracts? 2. Multi axis CNC machines would make short work of 30s era manufacturing techniques that took 10 men on 10 different machines to execute. Garand also built all the tooling, the m1 wasn't as difficult to build as many seem to think. It was extremely well thought out.  Rifles being manufactured, assembled and test fired at the Springfield Armory in ...HD Stock Footage |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 5:41:18 PM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: It was, they called it the M-14.  Quoted: Isn't that basically an M14? Edit: damn, beat, but by less than a second? Not sure I've seen that before... |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 6:00:59 PM EDT
[#12]
BM69 on top
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Posted: 8/13/2023 6:13:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was designed to be mag fed from the start. IIRC the NRA's "American Rifleman" magazine recently did an article on the history of the Garand. Some early experimental versions were detachable mag fed. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 6:37:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Having shot mag fed "versions" (BM59 and M14), I can say that it is significantly easier to establish and maintain good shooting positions with the Garand as-is versus the mag fed ones. The mag is right in the way for me and I have heard the same comment from others on the line. Clearly plenty of folks shoot the M14 just fine, but I definitely prefer the internal mag.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 6:41:17 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The past is another country, they do things differently there. The thing I always notice about early repeating firearms is that they are usually insanely complicated, unless they were personally designed by John Moses Browning. Then I remind myself that the people designing these things often didn't have a lot of other guns to reference. Perfection is achieved when there is nothing more to take away. Browning designed the Remington Model 8, which is "unusually insanely complicated". |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:13:11 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Having shot mag fed "versions" (BM59 and M14), I can say that it is significantly easier to establish and maintain good shooting positions with the Garand as-is versus the mag fed ones. The mag is right in the way for me and I have heard the same comment from others on the line. Clearly plenty of folks shoot the M14 just fine, but I definitely prefer the internal mag. If the clip didn't only hold 8 rounds, I'd say you could keep up with a bunch of modern 'assault rifles' in semi only. With the Garand auto ejecting the clip and you just quickly insert a new one. Fast as fuck in experienced hands |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:13:39 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is a BM-59 receiver the same as a Garand (7.62 x 63mm) or is it scaled down for the shorter 7.62 x 51mm? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The BM59 is one such example of how it would have worked for a magazine. Belt fed was just not possible due to the design. Is a BM-59 receiver the same as a Garand (7.62 x 63mm) or is it scaled down for the shorter 7.62 x 51mm? Same receiver. The original rifles were actually built on Garand receivers. A bit of machining to get it to accept the box mag, cut out the floorplate and a bit of modifying to the stock to allow for the winter trigger and the giggle switch. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:42:20 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Browning designed the Remington Model 8, which is "unusually insanely complicated". Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The past is another country, they do things differently there. The thing I always notice about early repeating firearms is that they are usually insanely complicated, unless they were personally designed by John Moses Browning. Then I remind myself that the people designing these things often didn't have a lot of other guns to reference. Perfection is achieved when there is nothing more to take away. Browning designed the Remington Model 8, which is "unusually insanely complicated". Try putting a new bolt handle in an Auto-5 sometime. Holy shit, what a project. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:42:51 PM EDT
[#19]
They made a few extra changes and called it the M14
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:48:40 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Industrial production can be a funny thing. If someone were to set up to make a 100% authentic M1 with no surplus or MiM parts, what would it wind up costing? $5,000? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: just one of many examples of how insanely powerful our industrial might was. That we could not just produce such high quality machined weapons but doing in mass quantities. Industrial production can be a funny thing. If someone were to set up to make a 100% authentic M1 with no surplus or MiM parts, what would it wind up costing? $5,000?  Attached File |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:49:27 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Plus the Grand was going up against bolt actions with 5 round internal magazines when it was first fielded. Other countries were for sure experimenting with different designs, like the SKS, CETME, etc. But nothing was fielded yet as I recall. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I recall reading that they originally were designed to accept BAR magazines, but went to clips to save ammo and reduce costs. Considering how badly we had let our military deteriorate after the Great War I almost understand Ordnances logic. After all it was the war to end all wars. I don’t know how clear WWII was in the minds of planners when Garand trials were going on in the early/mid 30s. None the less it seems a decision that probably cost many American infantrymen their lives. Plus the Grand was going up against bolt actions with 5 round internal magazines when it was first fielded. Other countries were for sure experimenting with different designs, like the SKS, CETME, etc. But nothing was fielded yet as I recall. Not until a little later when the Germans fielded the G-43/K-43 and the FG-42 but those weren't really around when the Garand came about..... I guess you can throw the m-1908 Mondragon rifle in there, and it came before the Garand |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 7:52:16 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Is a BM-59 receiver the same as a Garand (7.62 x 63mm) or is it scaled down for the shorter 7.62 x 51mm? They're modified Garand receivers. I have a BM59 from a parts kit on one. Tim Shufflin did the machining on the receiver for me. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 9:07:36 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not until a little later when the Germans fielded the G-43/K-43 and the FG-42 but those weren't really around when the Garand came about..... I guess you can throw the m-1908 Mondragon rifle in there, and it came before the Garand The Garand actually takes a bit of inspiration from the RSC 1917. The svt 38/40 and the g43 are kind of shit shows. Hardly surprising given all the development the m1 went through |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 9:12:42 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They made a few extra changes and called it the M14 |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 9:16:39 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Considering how badly we had let our military deteriorate after the Great War I almost understand Ordnances logic. After all it was the war to end all wars. I don’t know how clear WWII was in the minds of planners when Garand trials were going on in the early/mid 30s. None the less it seems a decision that probably cost many American infantrymen their lives. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I recall reading that they originally were designed to accept BAR magazines, but went to clips to save ammo and reduce costs. Considering how badly we had let our military deteriorate after the Great War I almost understand Ordnances logic. After all it was the war to end all wars. I don’t know how clear WWII was in the minds of planners when Garand trials were going on in the early/mid 30s. None the less it seems a decision that probably cost many American infantrymen their lives. Of all the decisions that cost men their lives I doubt that one made a discernible difference. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 9:17:05 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not until a little later when the Germans fielded the G-43/K-43 and the FG-42 but those weren't really around when the Garand came about..... I guess you can throw the m-1908 Mondragon rifle in there, and it came before the Garand I handled a Mondragon at a gun show once. Beautiful gun with some of the nicest machining work I've ever seen. That said, they wanted to equip the Mexican Army with these things?  It would probably make more sense to equip the current day Mexican Army with plasma rifles in the 40 gigawatt range.
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Posted: 8/13/2023 9:20:54 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 1. The number ordered would be a large factor in sweetening cost. How many were made between say 1936 and 1945 over multiple contracts? 2. Multi axis CNC machines would make short work of 30s era manufacturing techniques that took 10 men on 10 different machines to execute. |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 9:34:54 PM EDT
[#28]
My buddy says:
"Of course it could have easily been. They could have left the feed lips in the receiver and used a magazine like a Madsen LMG. The reason they didn't and forced Melvin Johnson to keep an internal magazine is they were terrified that troops would "waste" ammo by shooting too much. They being US Ordnance. The same idiots responsible for the appalling loses in Korea because they didn't immediately adopt German WW2 guns like the MG-42 and the MP-44/StG-44, in the original 8mm calibers." |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 10:57:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My buddy says: "Of course it could have easily been. They could have left the feed lips in the receiver and used a magazine like a Madsen LMG. The reason they didn't and forced Melvin Johnson to keep an internal magazine is they were terrified that troops would "waste" ammo by shooting too much. They being US Ordnance. The same idiots responsible for the appalling loses in Korea because they didn't immediately adopt German WW2 guns like the MG-42 and the MP-44/StG-44, in the original 8mm calibers." Sorry but your buddy is wrong. Melvin Johnson designed a late competitor to the M1. His rifle had an internal magazine that fed from stripper clips It's very hard to make a good long action magazine. Bar mags are not reliable, so en blocs allow you to split the difference. Appalling losses in Korea? The only ones who suffered appalling losses were China and North Korea. The Stg would've been totally useless in Korea, and the MG42 wouldn't have made a difference between the M1 Garand, BAR, and 1919 |
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Posted: 8/13/2023 11:30:15 PM EDT
[#30]
It was actually thought that removable magazines would introduce dirt or be lost:
M1 Garand | En bloc clip Officials in Army Ordnance circles demanded a fixed, non-protruding magazine for the new service rifle. At the time, it was believed that a detachable magazine on a general-issue service rifle would be easily lost by U.S. soldiers (a criticism made of British soldiers and the Lee–Enfield dozens years previously), would render the weapon too susceptible to clogging from dirt and debris and that a protruding magazine would complicate existing manual-of-arms drills. As a result, inventor John Garand developed an en bloc clip system that allowed ammunition to be inserted from above, clip included, into the fixed magazine. While this design provided the requisite flush-mount magazine, the clip system increased the rifle's weight and complexity, and made only single loading ammunition possible without a clip. |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 12:41:04 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry but your buddy is wrong. Melvin Johnson designed a late competitor to the M1. His rifle had an internal magazine that fed from stripper clips It's very hard to make a good long action magazine. Bar mags are not reliable, so en blocs allow you to split the difference. Appalling losses in Korea? The only ones who suffered appalling losses were China and North Korea. The Stg would've been totally useless in Korea, and the MG42 wouldn't have made a difference between the M1 Garand, BAR, and 1919 What is the ballistic difference between 8mm Kurz and .30 cal Carbine? Isn't that 7.92x33 vs 7.62×33mm? Lots of Korean vets bitched about their M1 Carbines... Lots of dudes died because they ran out of ammo. Not sure how a STG44 would solve any of that. |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 12:47:18 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is the ballistic difference between 8mm Kurz and .30 cal Carbine? Isn't that 7.92x33 vs 7.62 33mm? Lots of Korean vets bitched about their M1 Carbines... Lots of dudes died because they ran out of ammo. Not sure how a STG44 would solve any of that. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Sorry but your buddy is wrong. Melvin Johnson designed a late competitor to the M1. His rifle had an internal magazine that fed from stripper clips It's very hard to make a good long action magazine. Bar mags are not reliable, so en blocs allow you to split the difference. Appalling losses in Korea? The only ones who suffered appalling losses were China and North Korea. The Stg would've been totally useless in Korea, and the MG42 wouldn't have made a difference between the M1 Garand, BAR, and 1919 What is the ballistic difference between 8mm Kurz and .30 cal Carbine? Isn't that 7.92x33 vs 7.62 33mm? Lots of Korean vets bitched about their M1 Carbines... Lots of dudes died because they ran out of ammo. Not sure how a STG44 would solve any of that. Then again, appropriate screen name is appropriate |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 1:00:13 AM EDT
[#33]
To flip it around: Could the M1 Carbine be clip loaded like the Garand?
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Posted: 8/14/2023 1:06:39 AM EDT
[#34]
Yes. There was a magazine fed, select fire version of the Garand that was about to enter production; the T20E2, with samples scheduled to arrive to US Army, Pacific in early 1946.
War ending in August 1945 kept that relegated to obscurity. |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 1:21:16 AM EDT
[#35]
Seems like most full size cartridge semi rifles of ww2 had a 10 round box mag but still relied on 5 round stripper clips to load. I don't think troops issued a svt40 or g43 got more than 3 mags.
The 8 round enbloc was probably faster than those rifles. When the Americans encountered the STG for the first time it should have a been immediately checked out and something designed like it and mass produced. Instead it took to Vietnam to get the hint with an assault rifle WITH a 30 round mag. The m1 and m2 carbine could have been abandoned, the m1 Garand abandoned post war, and the m14 should have never been thought of. |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 1:24:41 AM EDT
[#36]
There was a recent American Rifleman article magazine that addresses this. The original Garand design was a detachable mag. The U.S. Army Ordnance bureau made it clear they did not want that so he redesigned it for en-bloc clips.
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Posted: 8/14/2023 1:29:09 AM EDT
[#37]
If you want a mag fed Garand, get an M1A/M14. To keep the Garand-based rifles accurate you need to be fairly adept gunsmith. The action is literally glued into the stock, and there little tricks like putting in more screws to hold the action and the stock together. I have never shot DCM, but I understand those shooters completely rebuild their gun during the off-season.
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Posted: 8/14/2023 1:51:30 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems like most full size cartridge semi rifles of ww2 had a 10 round box mag but still relied on 5 round stripper clips to load. I don't think troops issued a svt40 or g43 got more than 3 mags. The 8 round enbloc was probably faster than those rifles. When the Americans encountered the STG for the first time it should have a been immediately checked out and something designed like it and mass produced. Instead it took to Vietnam to get the hint with an assault rifle WITH a 30 round mag. The m1 and m2 carbine could have been abandoned, the m1 Garand abandoned post war, and the m14 should have never been thought of. The M2 was basically an assault rifle with a 30 round mag, practically speaking. And it weighed a hell of alot less than the STG. |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 2:16:30 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The M2 was basically an assault rifle with a 30 round mag, practically speaking. And it weighed a hell of alot less than the STG. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Seems like most full size cartridge semi rifles of ww2 had a 10 round box mag but still relied on 5 round stripper clips to load. I don't think troops issued a svt40 or g43 got more than 3 mags. The 8 round enbloc was probably faster than those rifles. When the Americans encountered the STG for the first time it should have a been immediately checked out and something designed like it and mass produced. Instead it took to Vietnam to get the hint with an assault rifle WITH a 30 round mag. The m1 and m2 carbine could have been abandoned, the m1 Garand abandoned post war, and the m14 should have never been thought of. The M2 was basically an assault rifle with a 30 round mag, practically speaking. And it weighed a hell of alot less than the STG. |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 2:23:42 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The M2 was "basically" an assault rifle, but on the lower end of the power scale. More of a "hot" SMG (150-200 yd effective range) rather than the 300-400 yd effective range of the Stg44 or later AK47. lol |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 2:26:46 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The M2 was "basically" an assault rifle, but on the lower end of the power scale. More of a "hot" SMG (150-200 yd effective range) rather than the 300-400 yd effective range of the Stg44 or later AK47. lol |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 2:37:18 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is the ballistic difference between 8mm Kurz and .30 cal Carbine? Isn't that 7.92x33 vs 7.62×33mm? Lots of Korean vets bitched about their M1 Carbines... Lots of dudes died because they ran out of ammo. Not sure how a STG44 would solve any of that. 8mm kurz is 13-15 grains heavier, and going about 100-200 fps faster. Neither round was well suited for Korea |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 2:41:28 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The M2 was basically an assault rifle with a 30 round mag, practically speaking. And it weighed a hell of alot less than the STG. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Seems like most full size cartridge semi rifles of ww2 had a 10 round box mag but still relied on 5 round stripper clips to load. I don't think troops issued a svt40 or g43 got more than 3 mags. The 8 round enbloc was probably faster than those rifles. When the Americans encountered the STG for the first time it should have a been immediately checked out and something designed like it and mass produced. Instead it took to Vietnam to get the hint with an assault rifle WITH a 30 round mag. The m1 and m2 carbine could have been abandoned, the m1 Garand abandoned post war, and the m14 should have never been thought of. The M2 was basically an assault rifle with a 30 round mag, practically speaking. And it weighed a hell of alot less than the STG. Early US investigations into the SCHV concept used the m1 carbine and the .30 carbine cartridge as test beds. Typically.30 carbine was necked down to .22 caliber, and from most accounts was actually quite impressive |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 2:56:11 AM EDT
[#44]
 Attached File Attached FileI got my uncles Bm59 paratrooper model now. On the hunt for magazines besides the 8 he gave me. |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 3:17:04 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Early US investigations into the SCHV concept used the m1 carbine and the .30 carbine cartridge as test beds. Typically.30 carbine was necked down to .22 caliber, and from most accounts was actually quite impressive 22 spitfire. If I had a junky old commercial carbine that I didn't mind messing with, I'd convert it to .22 spitfire. |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 3:31:10 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 22 spitfire. If I had a junky old commercial carbine that I didn't mind messing with, I'd convert it to .22 spitfire. Same concept, but .22 carbine and 5.7 spitfire were two different rounds |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 3:48:46 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Read once over at cmp forum that they army tested and found that the 8 rd clips were actually faster over the course of a prolonged battle. Once you run out of full detachable magazines, absolutely.  Mosin-Nagant vs AR15 Reloads |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 3:50:22 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Seems like most full size cartridge semi rifles of ww2 had a 10 round box mag but still relied on 5 round stripper clips to load. I don't think troops issued a svt40 or g43 got more than 3 mags. The 8 round enbloc was probably faster than those rifles. When the Americans encountered the STG for the first time it should have a been immediately checked out and something designed like it and mass produced. Instead it took to Vietnam to get the hint with an assault rifle WITH a 30 round mag. The m1 and m2 carbine could have been abandoned, the m1 Garand abandoned post war, and the m14 should have never been thought of. The Army evaluated the prototype FAL in .280 British in 1950, demanded it be rechambered in the new 7.62x51 cartridge to be accepted, prompting a retooling of the FAL production line and a politicized agreement from the UK to adopt 7.62x51 over .280. Then when all was said and done, the Army subsequently fudged the acceptance trials so that the ordnance corps' own M14 would win. If this political hackery would not have occurred, the AR platform probably wouldn't even exist |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 4:48:06 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If this political hackery would not have occurred, the AR platform probably wouldn't even exist I'm not sure about that, the AR10 would have been created regardless. Adoption of the AR15 might have well been slower if the US had adopted a better 308 rifle but the move to a lighter cartridge in a lighter rifle with larger magazines would still have happened. If it was driven by another nation then it's quite possible the rest of the world would have gone AR15 first while the US insists on adopting something else just because. Would the AR15 have improved and evolved faster with someone other than colt at the helm? On the other hand more recent innovation has been civilian driven and popularity would likely have been hampered if the AR15 wasn't the US service rifle and with the difficulties around import. Things would be different for sure. |
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Posted: 8/14/2023 5:47:04 AM EDT
[#50]
The ones with a box mag are called M-14.
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